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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [scca_ita] [ In reply to ]
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scca_ita wrote:
On my P5-6, I use Enve 7.8 and run the Corsa Speeds Gen1 in a 25mm. The key is I am height LIMITED to 22mm. The newer Gen 2 Corsa Speeds are 24mm as is the Conti 5000 in a 25mm tire.

Do you have any dimension info on the new Schwalbe Tires? I have a new set of ENVE coming this week and want to set them up tubeless.

the wider the rim, the lower the tire. so that's one thing. otherwise, i don't have a spec for you. honestly, i've not concerned myself with the height of tires, on road bikes. so i don't know.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
scca_ita wrote:
On my P5-6, I use Enve 7.8 and run the Corsa Speeds Gen1 in a 25mm. The key is I am height LIMITED to 22mm. The newer Gen 2 Corsa Speeds are 24mm as is the Conti 5000 in a 25mm tire.

Do you have any dimension info on the new Schwalbe Tires? I have a new set of ENVE coming this week and want to set them up tubeless.


the wider the rim, the lower the tire. so that's one thing. otherwise, i don't have a spec for you. honestly, i've not concerned myself with the height of tires, on road bikes. so i don't know.


Not exactly...at least not in the range of tire sizes and rim internal widths normally talked about. Tires of a given "size" actually increase width AND height on a wider rim (since they're mimicking a larger, truncated diameter casing) until you get to an inflection point where incremental width increases start lowering the height (with the limit being zero height when the internal width equals the casing flat width).

I had to concern myself with tire height on my 1st gen Cervelo S5 or they would rub on the fork crown and the rear wheel cutout. The worst offenders were the old GP4Ks, which not only measured oversize in regards to width, but also "tall" due to the parabolic shape of the tread mold. So...it can be a "thing" ;-)

As an example, here are a couple of quick views I did of a schematic tire/rim cross-section for the case of a tire that measures 25mm across on a 13mm internal width rim. The arc length (64.87mm) of the tire is constant. Observe what happens to both the tire width AND the tire height (above the brake track) as the rim internal width is increased to 17mm, 19mm, and then 21mm. Now, to be fair, the fact that the last 2 pics (19 and 21mm) show little change (especially as compared to the 17mm) in height means that this combo is approaching that inflection point where the height begins decreasing.






http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Aug 26, 19 22:01
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [ironmanrex] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously not Dan. But have 6-7 years of road tubeless experience, which I think is more direct experience than he has. :)

Right now, excluding the new Schwalbe lineup for lack of experience with them, the GP5000TL is the best jack-of-all-trades. And mediocre at none.

It's fast at Crr and aero. It's got great grip. So far it's seemed very durable, and I've heard no other reports that it's not.

The one problem you might have on your rims is mounting ease. I'd put it towards the harder end of the spectrum for mounting.

If you want something that's still pretty good at everything, but is easier to mount - try the Hutchinson Fusion 5. It's also very good at everything.

I can't wait to try out these Schwalbes, though.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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I think I will have to wait this one out. Last year I built up a Domane and spec'd it with Aeolus Pro 3's for disc. Got the Pro One's (28mm) for it in mid-2018, and had the worst nightmare imaginable mounting them--so crazy tight! I could only imagine if I were to get a catastrophic flat somewhere.


However, they rode really well for about the first two months. Then I went to ride it one morning, and found it wouldn't inflate to more than 40 psi (The Stans was not sealing) leaking sealant/air. Couldn't figure it out. Took it to a bike mechanic, and we tried shaking the sealant around--no difference.


That was it. The end of my marriage to road tubeless (Love my mtb tubeless)!


IDK, maybe the new Pro One improvements will eliminate the issues I had.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
the wider the rim, the lower the tire.

Not necessarily. That eventually becomes true if you try to go ultra-ultra-ultra-wide, but is often not the case when comparing typical setups. Height doesn't tend to change very much with tire width, and sometimes tires can get taller as rims get wider.

A (simplistic) way to visualize what's going on is to imagine that you've got a tire that always inflates to a perfectly round profile. Suppose you've got a rim with an internal width of zero, squeezing the tire's beads together. This causes the tire to form a complete circle:



Now imagine a second rim, where the internal width is equal to twice the diameter that the tire has on the zero-width rim. Now we have this:



The tire is now half of a circle with twice the diameter than before; the circumference has doubled, but the tire only exists across half of the new circle's circumference. The radius is the same as the old circle's diameter, so the inflated height is equal.
Last edited by: HTupolev: Aug 26, 19 18:39
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [big-w] [ In reply to ]
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big-w wrote:
I think I will have to wait this one out. Last year I built up a Domane and spec'd it with Aeolus Pro 3's for disc. Got the Pro One's (28mm) for it in mid-2018, and had the worst nightmare imaginable mounting them--so crazy tight! I could only imagine if I were to get a catastrophic flat somewhere.

However, they rode really well for about the first two months. Then I went to ride it one morning, and found it wouldn't inflate to more than 40 psi (The Stans was not sealing) leaking sealant/air. Couldn't figure it out. Took it to a bike mechanic, and we tried shaking the sealant around--no difference.

That was it. The end of my marriage to road tubeless (Love my mtb tubeless)!

IDK, maybe the new Pro One improvements will eliminate the issues I had.

the biggest impediment to tubless - road or otherwise - is the lack of uniformity among wheel makers, which cause tires to fit well or badly. i'm open to hearing contrary views on this but i think some wheel makers in the US, who aren't as closely attached to ETRTO, have made their rims slightly bigger and tire makers who adhere to ETRTO fit tighter. i also think some wheel makers, not necessarily bontrager, in the early days of road tubeless, who're making carbon rims, aero rims, made their rims slightly on the big side to guarantee no blow offs.

i do think the gap has closed on some of this. the new pro ones are slightly bigger. carbon wheel making has gotten more precise. if you can't hand roll a new pro one over a rim (other than an open mold asian carbon rim), i'm hoping that would be the rare case.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the great graphics! See also: THIS.

;)

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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I'm all-in for gravel and road tubeless, but I have a question. Especially in the winter, I will have one bike that doesn't see a lot of miles. I might take it out two or three times per month in the winter. I'm hesitant to leave it tubeless as it sits so much. I'm concerned the sealant will congeal and become leaky and out of balance. Is there a way to preserve the readiness of tubeless tires to inflate-and-go after prolonged storage? Or does it make better sense to convert that bike back to tubes for the winter months?
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [FlashBazbo] [ In reply to ]
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FlashBazbo wrote:
I'm all-in for gravel and road tubeless, but I have a question. Especially in the winter, I will have one bike that doesn't see a lot of miles. I might take it out two or three times per month in the winter. I'm hesitant to leave it tubeless as it sits so much. I'm concerned the sealant will congeal and become leaky and out of balance. Is there a way to preserve the readiness of tubeless tires to inflate-and-go after prolonged storage? Or does it make better sense to convert that bike back to tubes for the winter months?

In my experience, 2-3 rides per month are enough to keep tubeless setups happy. If you were riding the bike 2-3 times over the entire winter (or not at all), that could be an issue.

The biggest risk with letting tubeless tires sit for a long time is that they'll fully deflate and you'll lose the tubeless seal between tire and rim (which also depends on how tightly they fit together... some can keep the seal). If the tires fit loosely, you'll need an air compressor or CO2 to re-seat them. When I'm storing tubeless wheels, I'll pump them up to a high-ish pressure (but not beyond the maximum) to help prevent this. I try to check them for pressure at least once per month, and also give them a good shake/spin at that time, to move the sealant around.

This is also what ultimately led me to not run tubeless on some bikes, like my fat bike. It would go unridden for months at a time, and I'd spend more time maintaining it than riding it (not to mention the only wheels I could reasonably afford weren't tubeless-ready and would require a fairly involved conversion process). Tubeless can save a lot of weight on fat bikes, but for what I was doing it wasn't worth the hassle. Plus I think I've only had one flat ever with inner tubes on a fat bike.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
the biggest impediment to tubless - road or otherwise - is the lack of uniformity among wheel makers
...that and the fact that it's a PITA!
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [HTupolev] [ In reply to ]
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HTupolev wrote:
Slowman wrote:
the wider the rim, the lower the tire.

Not necessarily. That eventually becomes true if you try to go ultra-ultra-ultra-wide, but is often not the case when comparing typical setups. Height doesn't tend to change very much with tire width, and sometimes tires can get taller as rims get wider.

A (simplistic) way to visualize what's going on is to imagine that you've got a tire that always inflates to a perfectly round profile. Suppose you've got a rim with an internal width of zero, squeezing the tire's beads together. This causes the tire to form a complete circle:



Now imagine a second rim, where the internal width is equal to twice the diameter that the tire has on the zero-width rim. Now we have this:



The tire is now half of a circle with twice the diameter than before; the circumference has doubled, but the tire only exists across half of the new circle's circumference. The radius is the same as the old circle's diameter, so the inflated height is equal.

thank you. we have the hardest time convincing people that a wider rim will indeed make a tire taller.

Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I put the Bontrager R3 tubeless on my Pro5’s and it took 2 of us. On the positive side, not 1 flat in 13 months. Now it’s time for a new set. Maybe I’ll try the ProOne’s

http://www.TriScottsdale.org
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [andy tetmeyer] [ In reply to ]
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andy tetmeyer wrote:
HTupolev wrote:
Slowman wrote:
the wider the rim, the lower the tire.

Not necessarily. That eventually becomes true if you try to go ultra-ultra-ultra-wide, but is often not the case when comparing typical setups. Height doesn't tend to change very much with tire width, and sometimes tires can get taller as rims get wider.

A (simplistic) way to visualize what's going on is to imagine that you've got a tire that always inflates to a perfectly round profile. Suppose you've got a rim with an internal width of zero, squeezing the tire's beads together. This causes the tire to form a complete circle:



Now imagine a second rim, where the internal width is equal to twice the diameter that the tire has on the zero-width rim. Now we have this:



The tire is now half of a circle with twice the diameter than before; the circumference has doubled, but the tire only exists across half of the new circle's circumference. The radius is the same as the old circle's diameter, so the inflated height is equal.


thank you. we have the hardest time convincing people that a wider rim will indeed make a tire taller.

i learned something out of this discussion i did not know. i'm now .003 percent smarter than i was ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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gregk wrote:
FlashBazbo wrote:
I'm all-in for gravel and road tubeless, but I have a question. Especially in the winter, I will have one bike that doesn't see a lot of miles. I might take it out two or three times per month in the winter. I'm hesitant to leave it tubeless as it sits so much. I'm concerned the sealant will congeal and become leaky and out of balance. Is there a way to preserve the readiness of tubeless tires to inflate-and-go after prolonged storage? Or does it make better sense to convert that bike back to tubes for the winter months?


In my experience, 2-3 rides per month are enough to keep tubeless setups happy. If you were riding the bike 2-3 times over the entire winter (or not at all), that could be an issue.

The biggest risk with letting tubeless tires sit for a long time is that they'll fully deflate and you'll lose the tubeless seal between tire and rim (which also depends on how tightly they fit together... some can keep the seal). If the tires fit loosely, you'll need an air compressor or CO2 to re-seat them. When I'm storing tubeless wheels, I'll pump them up to a high-ish pressure (but not beyond the maximum) to help prevent this. I try to check them for pressure at least once per month, and also give them a good shake/spin at that time, to move the sealant around.

This is also what ultimately led me to not run tubeless on some bikes, like my fat bike. It would go unridden for months at a time, and I'd spend more time maintaining it than riding it (not to mention the only wheels I could reasonably afford weren't tubeless-ready and would require a fairly involved conversion process). Tubeless can save a lot of weight on fat bikes, but for what I was doing it wasn't worth the hassle. Plus I think I've only had one flat ever with inner tubes on a fat bike.

Yeah...for bikes and/or wheels that I don't use often (as in at least once per week), I stick with latex tubes. That's why my MTB isn't set up tubeless.

Just last week I removed a tire that was set up tubeless from one of my gravel wheels...I'd only let it set for ~1-2 weeks, and the sealant had already formed a congealed puddle on the down side (Orange Seal in a Challenge Gravel Grinder Pro)...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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My experience hasn't been as positive as yours. I left a gravel bike tubeless setup (Orange Seal Endurance formula) for two weeks and, at the end of the two weeks, I had large congealed patches sticking to the insides of both tires. The congealed sealant was at the bottom and in the shape of puddles. There was still liquid sealant in both tires, but a lot of it had congealed into a solid "puddle" that was stuck to the inside of the tire.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [FlashBazbo] [ In reply to ]
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FlashBazbo wrote:
My experience hasn't been as positive as yours. I left a gravel bike tubeless setup (Orange Seal Endurance formula) for two weeks and, at the end of the two weeks, I had large congealed patches sticking to the insides of both tires. The congealed sealant was at the bottom and in the shape of puddles. There was still liquid sealant in both tires, but a lot of it had congealed into a solid "puddle" that was stuck to the inside of the tire.


Interesting. Both you and Tom were using Orange Seal, which I haven't used for any significant length of time on a personal bike. I've heard from reputable sources that their current formula seals better than just about anything out there, but that it also dries out more quickly than other sealants (and needs to have sealant added more often). The experiences you and Tom mention line up with this, but I suppose I hadn't foreseen that it would become a solid 'puddle' in the tire. Usually for me, sealant just tends to 'disappear', or sometimes form in to some loose chunks that roll around in the tire.

EDIT: I thought that the "Endurance" formula from them was supposed to be the answer to the criticisms that the original dried out too quickly. It's tough... the sealants that seem to fix punctures best also seem to dry out super quick and/or clog up presta valves. I had to quit using Conti Revo sealant because it glued so many of my valve cores. Got tired of replacing them.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
Last edited by: gregk: Aug 27, 19 11:31
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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Assuming you opt for a decent, brand new tyre, (GP5000 OR Schwalbe One Pro, etc) with plenty of good quality sealant...what would you take with you for an Ironman in the way of 'spares'..? I'm thinking just a Dynaplug Racer and some CO2..?
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Hiphophopper] [ In reply to ]
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Hiphophopper wrote:
Assuming you opt for a decent, brand new tyre, (GP5000 OR Schwalbe One Pro, etc) with plenty of good quality sealant...what would you take with you for an Ironman in the way of 'spares'..? I'm thinking just a Dynaplug Racer and some CO2..?

For an Ironman, I'd definitely still take a spare tube, CO2, tire boot, levers, etc - in addition to a small plug kit. I'd likely do a larger 20 ounce CO2, with an inflator that could be closed/saved after partial use - like my very old Silca threaded CO2 inflator (in case I had to use it more than once to top off a tire again). That IM day is too long and way too expensive for me to even consider saving 100 grams by skipping a tube.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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fair point...but I have no idea how I could ever be able to get the tyre off at the roadside.. It took 2 mechanics half an hour to get them on last time..! (admittedly they were 23mm corsa speeds which are notoriously tight.)
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Hiphophopper] [ In reply to ]
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Hiphophopper wrote:
fair point...but I have no idea how I could ever be able to get the tyre off at the roadside.. It took 2 mechanics half an hour to get them on last time..! (admittedly they were 23mm corsa speeds which are notoriously tight.)

If the tire fits that tight, you could certainly make an argument that it's not worth carrying a spare tube. Personally, I wouldn't use a wheel/tire combo that fits that tight. A plug/CO2 is probably the way to go.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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gregk wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't use a wheel/tire combo that fits that tight. A plug/CO2 is probably the way to go.

Bingo!
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [MKirk] [ In reply to ]
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I'm hoping that 25mm GP5000s wont be quite so traumatic..!
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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I've been running 25mm GP5000TL since their release and more recently 28mm. My experience so far is that once you get a system down to mount the tires the supposed "hassle" is worth it.

Currently running:

25mm on Reynolds Attack wheels (17mm internal) and the tape and valves pre-installed by Reynolds. These took a few minutes to mount with Silca levers but so do regular clinchers on this rim. Mounted with floor pump and then injected 1oz of Muc-Off Tubeless sealant in each tire. 2000 miles, zero flats, 1 tiny nail pulled out when home and it sealed up immediately, a few nicks and cuts but can't see any sealant on the outside even with the UV light supplied by Muc-off.

28mm on Reynolds AR41x (21mm internal) with tape and valves by Reynolds. Mounted tires with bare hands, though I did need to use my chamber pump on one tire to get it to seat. Same protocol with the Muc-Off and only been running them about 200 miles but no issues.

I do have some questions about "best practices" though. Tires matter, rims matter, sealant matters, what about rim tape? does it make sense next tire install to go the extra mile and get the Silca tape, stans tape or another version? What about tubeless valves? Again, does the Silca system work better? I'm interested in the Mil-kit system of valves but the price seems a bit steep but there do seem to be some advantages over standard valves.
Last edited by: Granth9: Sep 3, 19 10:25
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Granth9] [ In reply to ]
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Granth9 wrote:
I do have some questions about "best practices" though. Tires matter, rims matter, sealant matters, what about rim tape? does it make sense next tire install to go the extra mile and get the Silca tape, stans tape or another version? What about tubeless valves? Again, does the Silca system work better? I'm interested in the Mil-kit system of valves but the price seems a bit steep but there do seem to be some advantages over standard valves.

I haven't used the Silca tape, so I can't comment on it. I've used tubeless tape from Stan's, HED, and Vision Tech (FSA), which all seemed to be the exact same stuff material-wise. Stan's has always made a couple width options for their various rims. All work very well and are my go-to style of tape. Per my installation video, I install an inner tube with the tire and pump it up overnight before installing sealant, to make sure that the adhesive is all the way stuck down.

I've also used the blue American Classic tape, which didn't seem as good. The adhesive layer started to separate from the backing part of the tape, and the tape got all rolled up at the edges, and basically fell apart.

I've never used the MilKit system. I always use whatever valves come with the wheels, since they're often specific to that rim shape. For example, a DT Swiss tubeless valve is shaped different than a Bontrager one, which is different than a Stan's valve. Pretty much all modern tubeless valves have removable cores, and I'll inject sealant using the small pre-measured bottles (i.e. Stan's, Schwalbe Doc Blue), or an injector. The MilKit setup looks pretty slick and you can really dial in an exact amount of sealant, but I'm just not that picky. Looks like it's designed to work with rims that take the "universal" style tubeless valve, which is the round Stan's style.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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(To all):

We just posted a new home page article relevant to this tubeless discussion, about tire pressure and Crr (rolling resistance). The original article was actually intended as a tire pressure guide of sorts (referencing our recent tire pressure poll, and the same poll ran in early 2017). However, in the process of writing, it became apparent that there was just too much info on rolling resistance that had to be covered first. In other words, Crr is too complicated to explain in a paragraph or two as part of a tire pressure article. So, I split it up into two different articles, and the second should be out later this week (the one that's actually about determining your best tire pressure).

Now, I want to be clear that my article today would not have been possible without the assistance of great resources like Tom A, Al Morrison, and Silca / Josh P. I link back to an article on the Silca blog which goes in to great length and detail on Crr and Impedance. If you've read any of my stuff, you'll know that I'm typically trying to take really complicated topics and 'detune' them a bit to be understood by a wider audience while still being accurate. You know, analogies and blah blah blah... hopefully the article helps at least some of you ;)

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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