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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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MOP_Mike wrote:
To the thread in general...

It looks like sealant vendors have had a couple of years to improve their formulations. And, it's time to renew the stuff on my road bike for the upcoming riding season.

So, I'm looking for current sealant recommendations. Is there a general consensus now as to which is "best" for a road tire/rim? Any particular products to avoid? Anybody really happy with a particular sealant? LBS has recommended Orange, but I understand that they have a couple of formulations, and some posters here apparently had problems with one of the older Orange products.

FWIW, I'm running Mavic Yksion Pro UST tires on their Ksyrium Elite UST rims. I'm more concerned with sealant longevity than puncture performance.

Thanks for your help.

I haven't seen a whole lot of big changes in the last few years (at least not any backed by solid testing/data - that I'm aware of).

First thing is to check if there are any sealants disallowed by your rim or tire manufacturer.

As far as your desire for longevity - in my experience, most of the latex-based sealants perform pretty similarly. Orange Seal has an "Endurance" version, but I don't know that it lasts any longer than other brands like Stan's (my understanding is that the original Orange Seal dried out more quickly than most sealants... hence the introduction of 'Endurance').

Personally, I've pretty much landed back at Stan's. It's the original standard, and they've improved it over the years. It's relatively inexpensive and easy to find. I also pretty much only buy the single serve sealed bottles now, because I don't use enough sealant to warrant the big jugs (which will spoil/solidify over time on the shelf... even if unopened/sealed). It's better to buy smaller quantities more frequently. So, this could also nod towards using whatever your local bike shop sells and turns over frequently.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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gregk wrote:

I haven't seen a whole lot of big changes in the last few years (at least not any backed by solid testing/data - that I'm aware of).

First thing is to check if there are any sealants disallowed by your rim or tire manufacturer.

As far as your desire for longevity - in my experience, most of the latex-based sealants perform pretty similarly. Orange Seal has an "Endurance" version, but I don't know that it lasts any longer than other brands like Stan's (my understanding is that the original Orange Seal dried out more quickly than most sealants... hence the introduction of 'Endurance').

Personally, I've pretty much landed back at Stan's. It's the original standard, and they've improved it over the years. It's relatively inexpensive and easy to find. I also pretty much only buy the single serve sealed bottles now, because I don't use enough sealant to warrant the big jugs (which will spoil/solidify over time on the shelf... even if unopened/sealed). It's better to buy smaller quantities more frequently. So, this could also nod towards using whatever your local bike shop sells and turns over frequently.


Thanks, greg. That's great info on the Orange and Stan's stuff. FWIW, I ended up getting some Muc-Off from my LBS before I read your post.

https://us.muc-off.com/...sle-tubeless-sealant

It's supposed to last 6 months. I'll post back here to let everybody know how it worked.

Cheers.


"I have sworn an oath of solitude until the pestilence is purged from these lands."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: Mar 22, 21 17:18
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Greg,

Got a few questions if you have a sec as your are the experT!

1)Was curious about instead of turning the wheel while your bike sits does just taking the sealant out with a syringe work as well as long as you just put sealant back in before you ride? then wouldn't have to keep up with it if its a bike that sits and don't feel like spinning or taking the tires off? If so, im guessing new sealant in the tires instead of keeping the old stuff

2)for checking sealant I know some people have "dip sticks". I generally just take the syringe and suck whatever is there and put it back if its fine? is there a better way? also I know some people shake tires but if its on the bike kind of hard...even spinning it a lot of times I can't hear it so ill check and its full.

3)My other questions was about tires. Say you have a training tire and a race tire that you switch on and off before and after races. Will that stretch the bead too much over the course of 4-5 times a year?
3a) Have enve wheels and a Roval disc. thinking of running either the SES tires, Vittoria corsa (maybe not speed to add durability) Schwalbe pro one or Pro one TT. Ive had a few rides on the enves and like them as I can hand mount them but didn't know if you had expericnce with the others and/or specifically on enve or Roval 321?

Thanks again!

https://www.strava.com/athletes/11645943 https://www.instagram.com/timeforicecream/
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [DylanD] [ In reply to ]
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DylanD wrote:
Hey Greg,

Got a few questions if you have a sec as your are the experT!

1)Was curious about instead of turning the wheel while your bike sits does just taking the sealant out with a syringe work as well as long as you just put sealant back in before you ride? then wouldn't have to keep up with it if its a bike that sits and don't feel like spinning or taking the tires off? If so, im guessing new sealant in the tires instead of keeping the old stuff

2)for checking sealant I know some people have "dip sticks". I generally just take the syringe and suck whatever is there and put it back if its fine? is there a better way? also I know some people shake tires but if its on the bike kind of hard...even spinning it a lot of times I can't hear it so ill check and its full.

3)My other questions was about tires. Say you have a training tire and a race tire that you switch on and off before and after races. Will that stretch the bead too much over the course of 4-5 times a year?
3a) Have enve wheels and a Roval disc. thinking of running either the SES tires, Vittoria corsa (maybe not speed to add durability) Schwalbe pro one or Pro one TT. Ive had a few rides on the enves and like them as I can hand mount them but didn't know if you had expericnce with the others and/or specifically on enve or Roval 321?

Thanks again!

I wouldn't say I'm the expert, but here are my answers!

1. I'm assuming you're referring to some sort of long term storage situation (i.e. over the winter, not riding a bike). If that's the case, then yes, removing the sealant with a syringe is acceptable. The only asterisks is that most of the syringes won't remove 100% of the sealant. Maybe 90% or so. So you can still end up with a puddle of dried sealant in the tire.

2. Your method is my preferred method for what you're saying. A dip stick will only give you a relatively rough measure of sealant level (and it'll be affected by tire size) - and it doesn't let you *really* see the condition of the sealant.

3. I commend you for even entertaining swapping tubeless tire 8 or 10 times in a year voluntarily ;) Too much for me. But if that works for you, it works. That said, I've not heard of any problems with that in terms of bead stretch. Tubeless tires are constructed with much heftier beads than tube-type tires. In other words, I've never seen a tubeless tire with a maximum number of installations/removals listed, after which it becomes unsafe.

3a. Zero experience with the Roval disc. I haven't ridden any Rovals at all in about ~7 years. On current ENVE product, I've used both Schwalbe Pro Ones and ENVE's own tires. Both are good, but my personal preference was the Schwalbes because they were easier to install.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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I converted my commuter bike to tubeless almost a year ago, and I'm getting to the point where it's time for new tires. Even though tubeless was a real pain to set up initially, I feel like I've learned enough about it over the year, and appreciated its benefits enough that I plan on continuing to run tubeless on this bike. A couple of questions about replacing tubeless tires for those who have more experience than me:

1. Rim tape - Do you replace the rim tape every time you put on a new tire, or only if it's obviously damaged?

2. Valves - Do you put in new valves every time, or will the old ones still be able to form a tight seal?

Thanks in advance for saving me a few trial-and-error steps! :)
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Blainyboy8] [ In reply to ]
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Update - hit a staple, construction size, not classroom size, and some tire retread wire beads, in my rear schwalbe this week. the stans did a phenomenal job. sealed it up amazing. i started the ride at 90psi and would guess it was still holding north of 60psi after i got home. i was by no means limping home on something barely inflated. so that was the good/pro of road tubeless, here is the con:
(oh also forgot to mention that for my setup as described above, i did just recently top off the sealant, so that probably helped, and those schwalbes and stans were prone to weeping a little out the sidewalls, FYI)

got home and hole was bigger than i would want so decided to ditch the tires and throw on some new gp5k 25mm TL that i had. wow. i have been doing this a while and no stranger to tubeless, have maybe 6 different wheelsets in my garage set up tubeless, but this setup on my older hed jet 6 black, was the worst i have ever encountered. couldnt even come close to getting the first bead on my rim. tried every trick i know of. had to break out the tire jack and that barely worked. long story short, this was by far the hardest tubeless set up i have ever dealt with in my life, and i wont be riding this wheelset outside of cell phone reception. i am not sure what would happen on side of the road if sealant didnt seal. doubtful i would be able to get it off the rim let along back on.

i know alot of people ask about tubeless and is it worth it. here is my two cents. MTB and gravel- 100% worth it. in fact it blows my mind that some people still use tubes in these scenarios. Road - ehhhhh, depends on your set up. i hadnt had a road flat in probably 2-4 years (cant even think of the last one really) thanks to tubeless im sure, but dang if you dont have a good combo, you can be in bad experience trying to fix a flat or mount tires. you are going to put in waaaay more time in your garage, and hopefully less time on the side of the road. but you might be stuck on the side of the road. i really enjoy not getting many flats, but that one time you cant change it kinda sucks. ideally, you would have some newer rims and tires that are made for each other and their tubeless standards are a little better than my 6 year old heds, that would probably help out tremendously. then i would be 100% road tubeless advocate. with my set up now, im 50/50 on road tubeless.

anyone have any good tubeless tires they have mounted to Jet black or Jet+ (the stuff made around 2014-2016, i believe it has 21mm internal). my Schwalbe were better than the gp5k, but still not fun either.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Blainyboy8] [ In reply to ]
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I have Continental GP5000 TL 25mm tyres mounted to a pair of Hed H3+ and a Jet+ disc no worries I didn't think were overly hard to deal with and had no issues for well over a year now.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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It's 2021, people are switching to tubeless and we're pissing around with sealant, getting tyres on and off, still getting flats etc etc Am I alone here in thinking that we are just way way behind where we should be in terms of tyre technology. I was watching some youtube video of a guy demonstrating how to put a tubeless tyre on, mouth agape. It was like something from the 1950s.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
It's 2021, people are switching to tubeless and we're pissing around with sealant, getting tyres on and off, still getting flats etc etc Am I alone here in thinking that we are just way way behind where we should be in terms of tyre technology. I was watching some youtube video of a guy demonstrating how to put a tubeless tyre on, mouth agape. It was like something from the 1950s.


I have no idea why it's so hard for people. The main issue is making sure the tire is FULLY into the precise CENTER of the wheel as you pull it over.

Conti 5000Tl on DT Swiss wheels and no tools.

No flats with 1000s of km riding. Had a puncture 60km into a 370km ride in February. I only noticed it because the guy on my wheel tasted latex. :). It sealed, I rode the remaining 310km without having to fix it or even top off the air pressure.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. We have six different wheel brands and models with ten different tires we use that are set up tubeless. There is only one I need to use one lever for one push but I can do it roadside without tools if I have to.

Most people I have seen trying to mount a tire roadside really just suck at the technique in general. I can see tubeless being hard for them.

Agreed really getting things properly center channeled and staying there is the most common problem I see
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Darren325 wrote:
zedzded wrote:
It's 2021, people are switching to tubeless and we're pissing around with sealant, getting tyres on and off, still getting flats etc etc Am I alone here in thinking that we are just way way behind where we should be in terms of tyre technology. I was watching some youtube video of a guy demonstrating how to put a tubeless tyre on, mouth agape. It was like something from the 1950s.



I have no idea why it's so hard for people. The main issue is making sure the tire is FULLY into the precise CENTER of the wheel as you pull it over.

Conti 5000Tl on DT Swiss wheels and no tools.

No flats with 1000s of km riding. Had a puncture 60km into a 370km ride in February. I only noticed it because the guy on my wheel tasted latex. :). It sealed, I rode the remaining 310km without having to fix it or even top off the air pressure.

My road bike and TT bike are both new and tubeless ready, but came with clinchers. I'll get some tubeless tyres and have a crack. When i switched to tubs, I was a bit reluctant, as I'd ready how much drama they were, but I found them to be great. So yeah maybe people are just being a bit shit with tubeless..
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [ In reply to ]
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note the new article up today on zipp's new 454 NSW and 404 Firecrest. also note the very end of that article, where veloflex is mentioned. i got a note from them this morning that their performance tubeless tires are ETRTO hookless compliant.

this is a big deal, because the best hookless-compliant performance tire was schwalbe, and adding veloflex to that list helps pump the sale of road wheels with hookless beads. conti and vittoria aren't there with hookless-compliant tires. (but soon, i suspect.)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
note the new article up today on zipp's new 454 NSW and 404 Firecrest. also note the very end of that article, where veloflex is mentioned. i got a note from them this morning that their performance tubeless tires are ETRTO hookless compliant.

this is a big deal, because the best hookless-compliant performance tire was schwalbe, and adding veloflex to that list helps pump the sale of road wheels with hookless beads. conti and vittoria aren't there with hookless-compliant tires. (but soon, i suspect.)

But, by my reading of that Veloflex link in your article, it appears that according to what they say, and the ETRTO standard for hookless rims, one shouldn't be running a tire narrower than ~40mm wide on a hookless rim with a bead width of 23mm, like these new Zipp wheels, no? That wouldn't make for very good aerodynamics for road/TT use.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
note the new article up today on zipp's new 454 NSW and 404 Firecrest. also note the very end of that article, where veloflex is mentioned. i got a note from them this morning that their performance tubeless tires are ETRTO hookless compliant.

this is a big deal, because the best hookless-compliant performance tire was schwalbe, and adding veloflex to that list helps pump the sale of road wheels with hookless beads. conti and vittoria aren't there with hookless-compliant tires. (but soon, i suspect.)


But, by my reading of that Veloflex link in your article, it appears that according to what they say, and the ETRTO standard for hookless rims, one shouldn't be running a tire narrower than ~40mm wide on a hookless rim with a bead width of 23mm, like these new Zipp wheels, no? That wouldn't make for very good aerodynamics for road/TT use.

i'm asking cadex, zipp and enve about this. because, what the ETRTO (apparently) writes in its book makes no sense to me. if you take at face value what the book appears to say, there is no such thing as qualifying hookless set up. the inner bead width would need to be inordinately narrow.

what we see from the wheel makers is a suggested use of tires 2mm to 7mm larger than the inner bead width. what the ETRTO seems to be saying is it's more like 7mm to 15mm. in other words, as far as the ETRTO is concerned, all these new road wheels are actually new gravel wheels and, even then, wheels for tires that begin at 38mm and go up from there.

this is at least veloflex's interpretation of the ETRTO's book, and if that's true, veloflex makes a tire that might be ETRTO compliant, but for no wheels that are either currently made, or are ever going to get made. bear in mind that that the ETRTO also sets a pretty low upper limit on psi for hookless, which is in the mid-70s. if you make a hookless wheel with a 19mm inner bead width, that probably reduced the volume sufficiently that the optimal pressure for that tire is more like 90 or 100psi.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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late add: i just got this:


this is a representation of the ETRTO's book. this would seem to me to contradict veloflex's interpretation of the ETRTO.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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here's the first half of that chart, which is most relevant, and more legible.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
late add: i just got this:


this is a representation of the ETRTO's book. this would seem to me to contradict veloflex's interpretation of the ETRTO.

Thanks. Is there a legend for that chart? In other words, what do the colors and Xs represent? For clarity...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
late add: i just got this:


this is a representation of the ETRTO's book. this would seem to me to contradict veloflex's interpretation of the ETRTO.


Thanks. Is there a legend for that chart? In other words, what do the colors and Xs represent? For clarity...

the blue cells represent measurement rims. as i understand it, it works like this: any tire that measures between 22mm and 24mm is considered a tire of that size when that tire is mounted aboard a 17mm-width rim. a rim with a 17mm inner bead width is the "measurement rim" for that range of tire sizes.

the green cells, i don't know.

i do think i *may* have found out the discrepancy. that chart i'm posting here is with effect in march of 2021. it's very new. the hookless standards came out in 2019. i believe the ETRTO has subsequently changed the tire ranges that apply to the rims, and that is represented by this new chart. i'm going to pass this by veloflex and see if the article to which they refer references the older ETRTO guidelines.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
late add: i just got this:


this is a representation of the ETRTO's book. this would seem to me to contradict veloflex's interpretation of the ETRTO.


Thanks. Is there a legend for that chart? In other words, what do the colors and Xs represent? For clarity...


the blue cells represent measurement rims. as i understand it, it works like this: any tire that measures between 22mm and 24mm is considered a tire of that size when that tire is mounted aboard a 17mm-width rim. a rim with a 17mm inner bead width is the "measurement rim" for that range of tire sizes.

the green cells, i don't know.

i do think i *may* have found out the discrepancy. that chart i'm posting here is with effect in march of 2021. it's very new. the hookless standards came out in 2019. i believe the ETRTO has subsequently changed the tire ranges that apply to the rims, and that is represented by this new chart. i'm going to pass this by veloflex and see if the article to which they refer references the older ETRTO guidelines.

Cool...and the Xs? Black vs red? (although it appears the red Xs are just in the green cells?) Does an "X" mean "OK", or something else?...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
late add: i just got this:


this is a representation of the ETRTO's book. this would seem to me to contradict veloflex's interpretation of the ETRTO.


Thanks. Is there a legend for that chart? In other words, what do the colors and Xs represent? For clarity...


the blue cells represent measurement rims. as i understand it, it works like this: any tire that measures between 22mm and 24mm is considered a tire of that size when that tire is mounted aboard a 17mm-width rim. a rim with a 17mm inner bead width is the "measurement rim" for that range of tire sizes.

the green cells, i don't know.

i do think i *may* have found out the discrepancy. that chart i'm posting here is with effect in march of 2021. it's very new. the hookless standards came out in 2019. i believe the ETRTO has subsequently changed the tire ranges that apply to the rims, and that is represented by this new chart. i'm going to pass this by veloflex and see if the article to which they refer references the older ETRTO guidelines.


Cool...and the Xs? Black vs red? (although it appears the red Xs are just in the green cells?) Does an "X" mean "OK", or something else?...

i don't know what the Xs mean, i don't have a legend, but yeah, i think it means that tire range can go on that rim. the lack of an X means that tire cannot go on that rim. that's my intuitive take.

i general, i believe the change the ETRTO made is to allow a tire that is at least 110% of the inner bead width of the rim. so, somebody (i think it was CADEX) is making rims with 22.6mm inner bead width. 110% of that is 24.86. so, you take a 25mm tire, you mount it on a "measurement rim", which is had a 19mm bead width, and if your tire measures at least 24.86mm in width you're good to go. at least that's my understanding.

there are some issues with this, which begin with the fact that you're measuring the width of a tire manufactured for hookless use on a hooked rim. there is no 19mm hookless rim. so you measure a hookless product on a rim not contemplated by the tire maker. it is my understanding that this question of how you measure a tire for a hookless bead is before the ETRTO panel right now.

i still don't know what the green cells represent.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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