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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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It's worth noting that, long ago, clinchers were generally hookless. Safety was ensured by not running high pressures; that most clincher tires were thick and stiff possibly also helped.

The main transition happened in the 1970s, probably encouraged by the wake of the US bike boom, and its massive spike of clincher-equipped road bikes.
A few cheap tires still come with colorful "HIGH PRESSURE" labels on their sidewalls, a cheery throwback and a grim omen that they'll roll like a sack of potatoes no matter how they're pumped.
Last edited by: HTupolev: Aug 21, 19 12:58
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [HTupolev] [ In reply to ]
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I'm on the cusp of making the transition to tubeless . I was about to install GP5000TL 25mm on my HED Jet 6+ Front / Jet 9+ Front & Rear, Jet+ Disc rear wheels when I was reminded of Josh Poertner's "Rule of 105" (https://blog.silca.cc/...ure-and-aerodynamics).

In summary, this says that "the rim must be at least 105% the width of the tire". Rim width here means the widest part of the whole rim, not the width of the brake track.

My Jet6+ rims measure 27.5mm at the widest point. Dividing by 105% tells me that my tires should therefore be no wider than 26.2mm.

I believe that GP5000TL 25mm tires measure more like 26.5mm on these rims (possibly even wider because of the thicker casing than the tubed version). That's close, but it still violates the rule, and therefore probably isn't a good choice, especially as they grow with age.

I'm currently running GP4000SII 23mm, which come out at ~25mm on these rims - that's 109%, so comfortably on the right side of the rule.

So, a couple of questions:

  1. Why doesn't Continental make a 23mm GP5000 TL? This would seem to be a perfect aero solution for these (and similar) rims. The 25mm looks like it may be too wide for good aerodynamic behaviour in gusty/high yaw conditions, and the 28mm will definitely not be a good answer (for these rims).
  2. If GP5000 TL 25mm isn't the right answer for me, what is? The GP4000Sii had (for me) the perfect combination of aero/rolling resistance/puncture resistance. Andy Tetmeyer @ HED: what have you found to be the fastest in your testing?

Last edited by: marting: Aug 22, 19 1:52
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting wrote:
I'm on the cusp of making the transition to tubeless . I was about to install GP5000TL 25mm on my HED Jet 6+ Front / Jet 9+ Front & Rear, Jet+ Disc rear wheels when I was reminded of Josh Poertner's "Rule of 105" (https://blog.silca.cc/...ure-and-aerodynamics).

In summary, this says that "the rim must be at least 105% the width of the tire". Rim width here means the widest part of the whole rim, not the width of the brake track.

My Jet6+ rims measure 27.5mm at the widest point. Dividing by 105% tells me that my tires should therefore be no wider than 26.2mm.

I believe that GP5000TL 25mm tires measure more like 26.5mm on these rims (possibly even wider because of the thicker casing than the tubed version). That's close, but it still violates the rule, and therefore probably isn't a good choice, especially as they grow with age.

I'm currently running GP4000SII 23mm, which come out at ~25mm on these rims - that's 109%, so comfortably on the right side of the rule.

So, a couple of questions:

  1. Why doesn't Continental make a 23mm GP5000 TL? This would seem to be a perfect aero solution for these (and similar) rims. The 25mm looks like it may be too wide for good aerodynamic behaviour in gusty/high yaw conditions, and the 28mm will definitely not be a good answer (for these rims).
  2. If GP5000 TL 25mm isn't the right answer for me, what is? The GP4000Sii had (for me) the perfect combination of aero/rolling resistance/puncture resistance. Andy Tetmeyer @ HED: what have you found to be the fastest in your testing?

This setup was addressed earlier in the thread - you can CTRL-F and search for GP5000 to find. Someone reported that they installed the GP5000 on Jet Plus and it measured 26.11. Note, however that they didn't specify if it was the tubeless version, and most tires stretch out over time and grow in width. When I've used tubed 25mm Conti GP4000's on those rims, they've always inflated to 28 - 28.5mm.

"Why doesn't Continental make a 23mm GP5000 TL?" My guess is that they saw how their sales were trending, and the market in general is trending, and made a business decision. Most decisions like this that don't make sense in the wind tunnel or engineering department are due to the accounting department. While aero is king in here, you'd be surprised at how little much of the market or manufacturers are concerned with it. Our recent home page article addressed a related issue of hooked vs hookless rims - leaving the hooks on pushes the tire width in a bit (to aid in aerodynamics), but the rim molds are more expensive and complex. Hookless rims can have other benefits, but it doesn't help with the Rule of 105.

If you want Andy @ Hed to get a notification of your questions, you'll need to reply to one of his posts - otherwise he may not find it (I'm not sure how closely he is watching/scanning this thread day-to-day).

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting wrote:

My Jet6+ rims measure 27.5mm at the widest point. Dividing by 105% tells me that my tires should therefore be no wider than 26.2mm.

I believe that GP5000TL 25mm tires measure more like 26.5mm on these rims (possibly even wider because of the thicker casing than the tubed version). That's close, but it still violates the rule, and therefore probably isn't a good choice, especially as they grow with age.


Not sure the internal measure of your HED's, buy the Reynolds tubeless wheels I run measure 19 internal 28 external. Conti 5000TL 28's measure 28.5/28.6 after 2 weeks on the bike. The 5000TL are noted to measure only slightly larger than noted.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [MKirk] [ In reply to ]
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MKirk wrote:
marting wrote:


My Jet6+ rims measure 27.5mm at the widest point. Dividing by 105% tells me that my tires should therefore be no wider than 26.2mm.

I believe that GP5000TL 25mm tires measure more like 26.5mm on these rims (possibly even wider because of the thicker casing than the tubed version). That's close, but it still violates the rule, and therefore probably isn't a good choice, especially as they grow with age.



Not sure the internal measure of your HED's, buy the Reynolds tubeless wheels I run measure 19 internal 28 external. Conti 5000TL 28's measure 28.5/28.6 after 2 weeks on the bike. The 5000TL are noted to measure only slightly larger than noted.

Current HED 'Plus' and Vanquish rims measure 21mm internal.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks all.

To conclude on the aero thing (at least unless Andy T stops by).

27.5mm/26.11mm = 105.3%. So it's a FAIL on the 'rule of 105'.

So I may be better off with GP5000 with latex tubes.

But there's some debate whether the GP5000 loses some of its mystical aeroness attributed to the tread pattern.

So I may even be better off staying with my existing GP4000Sii!
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [marting] [ In reply to ]
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They aren't HED wheels, but my ENVE SES 3.4 Disc wheels also have a 21mm internal width. On those, my 25mm Conti 4000SII tires inflated to a 29mm width. On the same wheels, my 25mm Conti 5000TL tires inflate to 27.5mm. ENVE's published specs for these wheels says they have an outside width of 27.5mm . . . but, when I measure them, they are actually a couple mm wider than that about 3/8" back from the rim. Using real world measurements, it appears the 25mm 5000TL's fit the formula on the ENVE wheelset.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting wrote:
Thanks all.

To conclude on the aero thing (at least unless Andy T stops by).

27.5mm/26.11mm = 105.3%. So it's a FAIL on the 'rule of 105'.

So I may be better off with GP5000 with latex tubes.

But there's some debate whether the GP5000 loses some of its mystical aeroness attributed to the tread pattern.

So I may even be better off staying with my existing GP4000Sii!

To be fair, I don't know how much wiggle room there is in the rule of 105. It's likely not a hard cutoff at 105.000000% for all tires. But also keep in mind that tires do tend to grow over time, so that 26.11 might get larger.

It does look like they make the tubed version of the GP5000 in 23mm, which should be 'safer' in terms of the rule of 105. Perhaps Conti thought that the aero/tri crowd was mostly using latex tubes, which may have been part of why they started at 25mm for tubeless (since much of the tubeless crowd is trending wider and wider, with the growth of all-road, gravel, etc). I ride 28mm tires most of the time, since I'm not doing solo timed races anymore and I like the other benefits of bump absorption and grip.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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gregk wrote:

To be fair, I don't know how much wiggle room there is in the rule of 105. It's likely not a hard cutoff at 105.000000% for all tires. But also keep in mind that tires do tend to grow over time, so that 26.11 might get larger.

Indeed, nor me. Though Josh Poertner's choice of words ("at least 105% the width of the tire if you have any chance of re-capturing airflow") suggests this is the outer edge of the range, rather than some middling figure.

A GP5000 tubed in 23mm might be worth it for lower Crr and being narrower than GP4000Sii making it a better fit to the rim.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Benv wrote:
Interesting clamps - not sure if I would trust that on a Hed Jet rim because the fairing is very thin and flexible and I wouldn't want to risk cracking it. But, there's gotta be similar tricks or techniques out there that help. The tire definitely plays a big role here - when I installed the tape and put a GP4000 with tube on it (per Hed's recommendations to make the tape seal) I had nowhere near the same issues. Tight fit vs my Hed Belgiums for sure, but nothing difficult or impossible to fix on the side of the road.

Alright ladies and gents - we have some answers for you with this new video on the home page. I covered the previous questions about pouring sealant into the tire (how do you do it without making a mess?!) rather than injecting through the valve stem. Plus, at the end I showed exactly how I used the quick clamps to help install difficult tires - and without cracking any carbon fairings.

The video definitely ended up longer than expected, but that's because one tire installed perfectly and the other did not (I was only going to show installation of one tire originally). I also opted to give a fair bit of background, tips, etc... mostly to avoid answering a million questions in the video comments (which I make zero dollars from).

So, enjoy (or hate) 15 minutes of me talking about tubeless.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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Greg, thanks a lot for posting the video! Very instructional but you got lucky with the wheel- tire combo. I looked at how you use the clamps carefully but I struggle to see how that would do any help with the Hed Jet and trying to get a Conti 5000 over it. The level of difficulty is way, way different than the Vision/Schwalbe and I can't see why the tire would not travel out of the rim underneath the clamp since there isn't any force holding the tire against the rim. Are you relying on the clamp faces being big enough and positioned partially sticking out to increase the path length over which the bead has to move to get undone? Note that the same issue already starts when trying to get the very first bead over the rim - would you place a clamp touching the rim on one side and pressing the open side of the tire (the one you're not trying to pull over the rim) against the rim on the other side?
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Benv wrote:
Greg, thanks a lot for posting the video! Very instructional but you got lucky with the wheel- tire combo. I looked at how you use the clamps carefully but I struggle to see how that would do any help with the Hed Jet and trying to get a Conti 5000 over it. The level of difficulty is way, way different than the Vision/Schwalbe and I can't see why the tire would not travel out of the rim underneath the clamp since there isn't any force holding the tire against the rim. Are you relying on the clamp faces being big enough and positioned partially sticking out to increase the path length over which the bead has to move to get undone? Note that the same issue already starts when trying to get the very first bead over the rim - would you place a clamp touching the rim on one side and pressing the open side of the tire (the one you're not trying to pull over the rim) against the rim on the other side?

Yes, the fit with that wheel and tire was easy. I don't have any super tight fitting combos on hand for the clamp demo.

I don't know if the clamps will help your situation. I've used them on much tighter tires and they've helped (which is how I discovered the solution in the first place). I also showed a larger clamp briefly in the video, which wasn't necessary for that particular wheel/tire, but has a larger contact area and more clamping force. In the past I've used some combination of clamps, thick tire levers, and sometimes a big tire jack: http://www.koolstop.com/...s/KS-TBJ%20IMAGE.jpg

In the end, you'll have to find a way or not use that wheel/tire combo.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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“In the end, you'll have to find a way or not use that wheel/tire combo.” —> Correct, but this is where simple tools and tricks can make all the difference between getting it to work or giving up and I always believe somewhere somehow someone has it figured out already and if we can share our best practices chances are we’ll be able to overcome all those issues little by little.

I will try using clamps next time I need to do something with my tubeless wheels and maybe as I try it will find helpful ways too.

For me, when I set up my MTB to be tubeless the process was surprisingly easy and the ride quality improvement was much more than I had expected. On the road the setup is still a pain in the butt but my first ride already sold me on the technology as it felt so nice to ride.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [FlashBazbo] [ In reply to ]
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FlashBazbo wrote:
They aren't HED wheels, but my ENVE SES 3.4 Disc wheels also have a 21mm internal width. On those, my 25mm Conti 4000SII tires inflated to a 29mm width. On the same wheels, my 25mm Conti 5000TL tires inflate to 27.5mm. ENVE's published specs for these wheels says they have an outside width of 27.5mm . . . but, when I measure them, they are actually a couple mm wider than that about 3/8" back from the rim. Using real world measurements, it appears the 25mm 5000TL's fit the formula on the ENVE wheelset.

FlashBazbo

How difficult was getting the 25mm Conti 5000TL onto your ENVE? In your opinion is it feasible to throw a tube in if you have a nasty flat that doesn't seal durning a race?

Cheers,

Jan Vobecky
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [GoldenBear] [ In reply to ]
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GoldenBear wrote:
FlashBazbo wrote:
They aren't HED wheels, but my ENVE SES 3.4 Disc wheels also have a 21mm internal width. On those, my 25mm Conti 4000SII tires inflated to a 29mm width. On the same wheels, my 25mm Conti 5000TL tires inflate to 27.5mm. ENVE's published specs for these wheels says they have an outside width of 27.5mm . . . but, when I measure them, they are actually a couple mm wider than that about 3/8" back from the rim. Using real world measurements, it appears the 25mm 5000TL's fit the formula on the ENVE wheelset.


FlashBazbo

How difficult was getting the 25mm Conti 5000TL onto your ENVE? In your opinion is it feasible to throw a tube in if you have a nasty flat that doesn't seal durning a race?

Cheers,

They weren't difficult. I made sure the bead was centered in the rim's central channel as far around as possible. Then I used very mild pressure with a set of plastic tire levers. I've had tubed clinchers that were more difficult to mount. I think it's perfectly feasible to install a tube during a race. Again, I've had non-tubeless clinchers that were a lot harder to mount.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [FlashBazbo] [ In reply to ]
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FlashBazbo wrote:
GoldenBear wrote:
FlashBazbo wrote:
They aren't HED wheels, but my ENVE SES 3.4 Disc wheels also have a 21mm internal width. On those, my 25mm Conti 4000SII tires inflated to a 29mm width. On the same wheels, my 25mm Conti 5000TL tires inflate to 27.5mm. ENVE's published specs for these wheels says they have an outside width of 27.5mm . . . but, when I measure them, they are actually a couple mm wider than that about 3/8" back from the rim. Using real world measurements, it appears the 25mm 5000TL's fit the formula on the ENVE wheelset.


FlashBazbo

How difficult was getting the 25mm Conti 5000TL onto your ENVE? In your opinion is it feasible to throw a tube in if you have a nasty flat that doesn't seal durning a race?

Cheers,


They weren't difficult. I made sure the bead was centered in the rim's central channel as far around as possible. Then I used very mild pressure with a set of plastic tire levers. I've had tubed clinchers that were more difficult to mount. I think it's perfectly feasible to install a tube during a race. Again, I've had non-tubeless clinchers that were a lot harder to mount.

Thanks!

Jan Vobecky
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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for those who haven't seen it, there's a review of Schwalbe's new Pro One series on the home page. what i don't know yet is exactly how these tires are going to come out in the independent rolling resistance testing. however, my sense is that these are the new world beaters.

i'm predicting, for the 25mm Pro One, sub-8w on BRR @7 bar with a 10/5 puncture profile, which would make this the go-to tire i think.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, after reading about your front page article; you got me thinking about converting to tubeless for my rim brake road bike which is primarily used for riding in the mountains. I use Hed Ardennes Black wheels and sometimes Bontrager Aeolus XXX 2. For the optimum set up, which tire would u recommend and what tire pressure? (I’m 135 pounds if that matters)

Thanks
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
for those who haven't seen it, there's a review of Schwalbe's new Pro One series on the home page. what i don't know yet is exactly how these tires are going to come out in the independent rolling resistance testing. however, my sense is that these are the new world beaters.

i'm predicting, for the 25mm Pro One, sub-8w on BRR @7 bar with a 10/5 puncture profile, which would make this the go-to tire i think.

If you've got any spares, I'm pretty sure you know someone who does that sort of testing ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [ironmanrex] [ In reply to ]
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ironmanrex wrote:
Dan, after reading about your front page article; you got me thinking about converting to tubeless for my rim brake road bike which is primarily used for riding in the mountains. I use Hed Ardennes Black wheels and sometimes Bontrager Aeolus XXX 2. For the optimum set up, which tire would u recommend and what tire pressure? (I’m 135 pounds if that matters)

i'm not that good, yet, to answer that question. i've only got my personal experience, and not enough technical knowledge. i've run tubeless on the ardennes myself, great wheelset, assuming your ardennes are + then you've got 21mm internal bead diameter, 25mm external which, to me, argues for a 25mm or 28mm tire. if we're talking road. i've run 36mm gravel tires on that wheel and run them at about 35psi. i spose i'd run maybe 90psi for the 25s and 80 to 85psi for the 28s? but maybe tom a. and some others would be better to ask.

as for the aeolus, i've run aeolus 9s, but not tubeless. that was a very fast wheel for me, 9s front and rear. but i had to wash my bib twice to get the stripe out after every ride, because the wheel scared the spit out of me, even on the flats, when a truck passed me on the other side of the street going the other way. very fast wheel, but prone to stalls. never rode that wheel tubeless so can't say.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
for those who haven't seen it, there's a review of Schwalbe's new Pro One series on the home page. what i don't know yet is exactly how these tires are going to come out in the independent rolling resistance testing. however, my sense is that these are the new world beaters.

i'm predicting, for the 25mm Pro One, sub-8w on BRR @7 bar with a 10/5 puncture profile, which would make this the go-to tire i think.


If you've got any spares, I'm pretty sure you know someone who does that sort of testing ;-)

i absolutely know someone. if i have any juice, i'll get you some sent out. i suspect we could make that work.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:

If you've got any spares, I'm pretty sure you know someone who does that sort of testing ;-)

If you need some 5000TLs, just let me know

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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On my P5-6, I use Enve 7.8 and run the Corsa Speeds Gen1 in a 25mm. The key is I am height LIMITED to 22mm. The newer Gen 2 Corsa Speeds are 24mm as is the Conti 5000 in a 25mm tire.

Do you have any dimension info on the new Schwalbe Tires? I have a new set of ENVE coming this week and want to set them up tubeless.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [scca_ita] [ In reply to ]
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scca_ita wrote:
On my P5-6, I use Enve 7.8 and run the Corsa Speeds Gen1 in a 25mm. The key is I am height LIMITED to 22mm. The newer Gen 2 Corsa Speeds are 24mm as is the Conti 5000 in a 25mm tire.

Do you have any dimension info on the new Schwalbe Tires? I have a new set of ENVE coming this week and want to set them up tubeless.

Dan covered some of this in the home page article. More specifically, that the new tires will run true on a 19mm internal width rim (so they've effectively been downsized, similar to Conti's 5000). Most other tires on the market are sized for an old-school 13-15mm internal width rim.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Tom A. wrote:


If you've got any spares, I'm pretty sure you know someone who does that sort of testing ;-)


If you need some 5000TLs, just let me know


I've rolled a regular GP5K (23C), but not a TL. Based on BRRs testing, I see that the TL is basically tied with the regular when using a latex tube in the latter...plus, it's actually available in a 23C for better aero (at no Crr hit vs. the 25C TL), whereas the narrowest TL is 25C.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Aug 26, 19 12:48
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