Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Crash_Davis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Crash_Davis wrote:
New (sort of) tubeless convert with a couple of question for the tubeless brain trust.

I converted to tubeless in Dec 2019 and just had my first puncture after about 4 months/1000 miles (I do a fair amount of Zwifting on my other bike). After I heard the hissing stop and seeing the sealant on the frame I stopped and could see a shard of glass in the tire and the tire was soft. No more air was leaking. With only 8 miles left in my ride, I just road it home instead of squirting some CO2 into it. At home, when I put air in the tire at about 40-50 psi air started leaking from where the glass shard was (it apparently dislodged from the tire on the rest of the ride home). So had I stopped and put CO2 in the tire it wouldn't have improved my situation.

Q1: I expected the sealant to close up the puncture, so that all I would need to do is squirt some CO2 in and continue riding (or racing) in all except severe punctures. This was not the case, is this normal? Or is there something different or better I can do with my tubeless setup?

Q2: I tried to plug the tire with a leyzene plug and tool but it didn't hold. The puncture was much smaller than the tool, so I made it 'larger'using the tool to get the plug in. In the end I just put a new tire on, but aside from the puncture there seems to be plenty of life left in the tire. Should I expect to replace tires most any time I get a puncture?

When I removed and replaced the tire, there was plenty of sealant still in the tire. The sealant was still viscous and appeared as if it was fresh out of the bottle after 5 months of riding.

My setup is HED Jet 6 wheels with 23mm Schwalbe Pro 1 tires (on the wide rim HED's they look and fit more like 25's). I run them at 80 psi with Stan's sealant. I am 168lbs/76.2kg at 5'10"/178cm.

Thank you in advance for your collective wisdom! This thread has been a great source of information.

1. Hard to say - not all punctures will automatically seal with tubeless. I've certainly experienced some that don't seal. One thing that almost universally helps is using wider tires and less pressure (less chance of blowing out the seal provided by the sealant).

2. All depends on the size and type of puncture. Personally, I haven't done a whole lot with plugging tires. I typically replace the tire if it's cut bad enough to not seal.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Crash_Davis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Q1: I expected the sealant to close up the puncture, so that all I would need to do is squirt some CO2 in and continue riding (or racing) in all except severe punctures. This was not the case, is this normal? Or is there something different or better I can do with my tubeless setup?

Q2: I tried to plug the tire with a leyzene plug and tool but it didn't hold. The puncture was much smaller than the tool, so I made it 'larger'using the tool to get the plug in. In the end I just put a new tire on, but aside from the puncture there seems to be plenty of life left in the tire. Should I expect to replace tires most any time I get a puncture?


Q1: What sealant were you using? Just because it is still in viscous form doesn't mean it will work every time. Some sealants are a bit chunky to help bind and seal up punctures. If yours was just thin and runny it may not bond together and seal the puncture. I'm sure somewhere here there are recommendations on different brand sealants and performance. I use the Stans stuff, but pretty much just because that's what I've always used. Typically when I get a small puncture it is on the face of the tire and it will seal up fairly quickly, keep riding, sometimes it opens back up and can be a bit annoying with sealant squirting on your leg on and off the rest of the ride. Smaller punctures from thorns or such typically seal right away and you don't have to worry about it later. When riding I carry a CO2, spare tube, and a tire boot. Been riding tubeless on the road for about 8 years and have never not been able to bike back home from a tire failure. Before going tubeless I carried 2 tubes and need both hands to count the times I've had to hitchhike home from a ride.

Q2: Plugs work the best in MTB applications. In road tires they are halfway decent. The times I've successfully used them I have also bolstered the inside of the tire over the plugged area with some epoxy or gorilla glue or whatever I happen to have on hand. I haven't tested different things, but I'm sure one of them is better than the other. You could probably glue in a small tire boot as well as long as it doesn't influence the tire bead or expand the width in that section.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Crash_Davis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Q1: The majority you should be able to just inject more CO2 and keep going. After you get a good initial seal. But I wouldn't say "all except severe." There are some tricky punctures that don't seem that big, but have trouble sealing for whatever reason.

Q2: Absolutely not - you should not expect to replace a tubeless tire except for cuts nearly as bad as would make you replace a tubed tire. If a plug attempt fails (back to that in minute), you can always just patch the tire from the inside using a regular patch kit. You can do this on anything except severe cuts. It's annoying because you have to clean out all the sealant to get access to the interior of the tire. But it's usually preferable to just throwing out a tire. Actually whenever I'm doing a 100% sealant refresh, I'll go ahead and pull out all the old plugs and replace them with patches, just because patches are drop-dead reliable.


The plug. Plugs and sealant are a system that work together. The plug just helps the sealant do its thing. So after you get the plug lodged in there well you want to rotate the tire down so the sealant pools up right over the plug, and then add air gently. Once it seems to get an initial hold, spin the tire around a bit. Then add more air. Repeat until you're confident it's a good seal.

Also remember to "double up" the bacon when inserting (I've seen a few people get this wrong). Like the image below.


Last edited by: trail: May 4, 20 15:18
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thank you Greg, Erik+ and Trail. This is all very good information. I am going to try a patch on the tire that punctured, and look into some different sealant. I am using Stans as it came highly recommended. But it seems very viscous and I have heard of putting glitter into it (not something I wanted to do ) to help it seal better. Maybe I will try a different sealant. Half the fun is experimenting, right?

I may also try a 25 tire next time, and a little lower pressure to see how it rides. I know a lot of people recommend 25's and 28's.
Last edited by: Crash_Davis: May 4, 20 18:06
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Is there test results that show latex Stan’s sealer is more effective than slime?
I doubt slime markets vigorously for bicycle business where their market is so much bigger. I have had great results with slime tubes sealing up for us to ride on in road and
Mountain bike . On fingers Slime appears more coagulant than Stan’s.

.
..
.
Gonna need 3 glow sticks.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [go.dog.go] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
go.dog.go wrote:
Is there test results that show latex Stan’s sealer is more effective than slime?
I doubt slime markets vigorously for bicycle business where their market is so much bigger. I have had great results with slime tubes sealing up for us to ride on in road and
Mountain bike . On fingers Slime appears more coagulant than Stan’s.

The only objective sealant test I know of is the one I did years ago:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...t_-_Part_1_4147.html
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...t_-_Part_2_4155.html

Sorry - some of the images in those articles have mysteriously rotated 90 degrees... I think it's due to other website updates causing some havoc on our old content.

I could only use sealants that I had available to me at the time, and Slime wasn't one of them. Also, there have been multiple different versions of Slime over time (standard, auto, tubeless specific, etc) - and Stan's isn't the same product today that it was 10 years ago. So I can't really generalize.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This looks like motor trend comparing jeep and chevy snow driving and no mention of Subaru.

.
..
.
Gonna need 3 glow sticks.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [go.dog.go] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, the article is over 6 years old, so the topic is ripe for another look with the advancements in tubeless. Doing a new study would be a lot of work (especially fitting new tubeless tires onto rims over and over to conduct the study - I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone!). A slowtwitch survey would be interesting, or to hear what some of the pros that run tubeless are using. I'll admit "what others use" isn't necessarily the best, but it does provide an indicator of what people think works the best for them.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Regarding your tubeless 700c experience from last summer .

Was your Mavic UST a recent mavic UST rim + YKsion ust tire ? Would you race this tire ?

any updates ?

.
..
.
Gonna need 3 glow sticks.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
what makes a tire tubeless ready? Like, what's the difference between GP4000s and GP5000TL? Can you hack a really fast rolling tire that's not TL somehow, like a thin coating of 3M Super 77 or something?

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio Coaching and Bike Fitting
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits |
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericMPro wrote:
what makes a tire tubeless ready? Like, what's the difference between GP4000s and GP5000TL? Can you hack a really fast rolling tire that's not TL somehow, like a thin coating of 3M Super 77 or something?
Sometimes non-TL tires are more air-permeable, especially with thin casings.

But the critical question is bead security. Road cycling uses higher pressures than unpaved disciplines, even accounting for tire width, which is a main factor in blow-off risk. Increased tire stiffness can give some extra safety margin, but this has obvious performance drawbacks for performance road cycling.
Inner tubes go a long way in preventing the tire bead from moving around, which adds a lot of safety margin.
For adequate bead security in road tubeless, you want a very stiff bead with a very precise diameter that's well-matched to the rim. You're much more likely to get that with tubeless-specific products than with random non-tubeless stuff.

It's often possible to get non-tubeless rims and tires to seal without an inner tube, but it's a long way from being guaranteed to be safe.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericMPro wrote:
what makes a tire tubeless ready? Like, what's the difference between GP4000s and GP5000TL? Can you hack a really fast rolling tire that's not TL somehow, like a thin coating of 3M Super 77 or something?

There aren’t any universal standards for this. Mavic’s Road UST was intended to be a standard, and I believe is available for others to use, but it doesn’t have a lot of adoption yet. That’s why you see so many different brand designations... TR, TLR, 2bliss, etc. They are making up their own rules or manufacturing standards for what counts as tubeless.

Basically what makes a tire tubeless ready are two things: stronger beads (ideally with better diameter tolerances than tubed tires), plus some sort of inner liner to help with air retention (usually butyl). But some of the newer super fast tires are going lighter and lighter with any sort of liner, so the lines are getting blurry.

For MTB and gravel, you can often get away with using a non-tubeless tire set up tubeless, because of the lower pressure. It is not recommended (at all) for road. In my view, it’s not so much about the liner (or lack thereof), but the beads. Non tubeless beads stretch more. Not worth the risk.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Has anyone here tried the Roval 321 disk wheel with Conti GP5000 tubeless combo? I struggled with it for about 2 hours with no success, can't even get the one side of the tire to mount.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [dalava] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dalava wrote:
Has anyone here tried the Roval 321 disk wheel with Conti GP5000 tubeless combo? I struggled with it for about 2 hours with no success, can't even get the one side of the tire to mount.

Not I, sorry.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [go.dog.go] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
go.dog.go wrote:
Regarding your tubeless 700c experience from last summer .

Was your Mavic UST a recent mavic UST rim + YKsion ust tire ? Would you race this tire ?

any updates ?

Mavic Rims + Tires set up incredibly easily and consistently and it wouldn't be a big deal to pop a tube in if needed to fix a flat... honestly easier than many pure clinchers I've owned. Pretty durable too. IIRC I had a few flats but never noticed them until after the ride because they sealed so well. Downside is the tires aren't that fast. IIRC GP4000 + butyl. So we're not talking gatorskin slow but there are watts to be had. I tried a Hutchinson tire that should roll faster, also set up very easy, didn't ride it enough to really comment on durability.

I mounted a GP5000 and while it was way easier to get on the Mavic rim than it was to get on and set up on the Jet+ rim it was still a struggle. Didn't ride it enough to comment on durability but there's plenty of data out there on that.

The magic rim brakes really well btw though the pads wear fast.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Are you saying that you used tubeless
IRC ( tire from Japan ) and it was equal
To GP4000 with butyl tube ?

.
..
.
Gonna need 3 glow sticks.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [go.dog.go] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
go.dog.go wrote:
Are you saying that you used tubeless
IRC ( tire from Japan ) and it was equal
To GP4000 with butyl tube ?

He used Mavic tires.

IIRC = if I recall correctly.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Greg,

What 28mm tubeless tires do you think would work best with the new Zipp 303 S wheels?

Thanks
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GP5000.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [go.dog.go] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
go.dog.go wrote:
Are you saying that you used tubeless
IRC ( tire from Japan ) and it was equal
To GP4000 with butyl tube ?

This is the tire I used (came with the wheels): https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...-yksion-pro-ust-2018

Those tires give up about 6.8watts to the GP5000. You will have to assess if the speed difference is worth the increased mounting difficulty. A few years ago when I was competitive in my age group and always on or near the podium I wouldn't hesitate to go with the GP5000. Now? Eh... I'm not that competitive anymore. The difference in those two tires is 28 seconds over an Olympic bike course (25 miles). There's a chance on the Mavic wheels that could be slightly less as they optimized the tread pattern of that tire for that rim (supposedly). According to bicyclerollingresistance, both the Mavic tire and the GP5000 have basically the same tread thickness and puncture resistance.

Personally I'll run the Mavic wheel/tire combo for everything unless it's an A race where I need every second then I might throw on a set of GP5000s.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
has anyone tried running tubeless tyres on their zipp 858 front and super 9 rear? i know they are not tubeless compatible but have heard others doing so on other non-tubeless compatible zipp wheels. am thinking of going with the latest schwalbe pro one tubeless tyres in 25mm.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Chubbychums] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
For safety reasons I would advise against running tubeless tires (as tubeless) on non-tubeless rims.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Chubbychums] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I run run tubeless on a couple pair of American Classic wheels. The sprint 350s and the carbon aero 58s. I set them up with with stans tape and the Schwalbe pro one tubeless tires. I haven't had an issue with either setup, but as Greg points out, technically it is not advisable. I would do a bit of internet research on the rim profiles for your current wheels and compare it to other tubeless approved rims and look for major differences.

I also have a pair of Enve and Campy tubeless ready rims, and performance and setup wise I haven't noticed a difference between the two versus my non tubeless ready rims.
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Waingro wrote:
Greg,

What 28mm tubeless tires do you think would work best with the new Zipp 303 S wheels?

Thanks

Can't really say - I haven't used the wheels, nor have they provided any specific information to me/us on the best tire choice (or any info on tire choice, for that matter). If I had to pick just based on past experience, the Schwalbe Pro One has been my best in terms of installing well on a variety of wheels (I've only used the 2019 model of the tire - not the latest version).

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
Quote Reply
Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GreenPlease wrote:
go.dog.go wrote:
Are you saying that you used tubeless
IRC ( tire from Japan ) and it was equal
To GP4000 with butyl tube ?


This is the tire I used (came with the wheels): https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...-yksion-pro-ust-2018

Those tires give up about 6.8watts to the GP5000. You will have to assess if the speed difference is worth the increased mounting difficulty. A few years ago when I was competitive in my age group and always on or near the podium I wouldn't hesitate to go with the GP5000. Now? Eh... I'm not that competitive anymore. The difference in those two tires is 28 seconds over an Olympic bike course (25 miles). There's a chance on the Mavic wheels that could be slightly less as they optimized the tread pattern of that tire for that rim (supposedly). According to bicyclerollingresistance, both the Mavic tire and the GP5000 have basically the same tread thickness and puncture resistance.

Personally I'll run the Mavic wheel/tire combo for everything unless it's an A race where I need every second then I might throw on a set of GP5000s.

BTW, be careful with using the power numbers from the BRR site...they ONLY represent the power required on his rig, with no attempt made to use that value to estimate a "real life" power value...just a reminder ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply

Prev Next