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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Just do it regardless as I'm a 5000 TL convert now.



Yeah me too. Did the first few crits of my road season on them. Some in rain. They're just great. Grip for days. Roll super great.

What kind of sealant are you using in your 5000 TLs?

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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Sparks wrote:

What kind of sealant are you using in your 5000 TLs?

Stan's and Orange.

Can't say how they work because I haven't had a puncture (that I know of).
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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Sparks wrote:
trail wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Just do it regardless as I'm a 5000 TL convert now.



Yeah me too. Did the first few crits of my road season on them. Some in rain. They're just great. Grip for days. Roll super great.


What kind of sealant are you using in your 5000 TLs?

I'm using Orange Seal and can't comment on punctures either. Ironically, I don't think I'm any faster (maybe slower) on the 5000 TLs vs the 4000s tubed. However, I'm really starting to dig the feel of the ride with the lower PSI. I had picked up some 5000 TLs on sale as an "experiment". Just ordered some more. Running one set of wheels tubeless, while the rest are 4000s (I swear I have a surplus of those tires).

"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Sparks wrote:


What kind of sealant are you using in your 5000 TLs?


Stan's and Orange.

Can't say how they work because I haven't had a puncture (that I know of).

Thanks for the reply. I'll probably try whichever of those I can most easily get my hands on. And maybe they're working beyond your wildest dreams, but you just don't know it!

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [allenpg] [ In reply to ]
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allenpg wrote:
Sparks wrote:
trail wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Just do it regardless as I'm a 5000 TL convert now.



Yeah me too. Did the first few crits of my road season on them. Some in rain. They're just great. Grip for days. Roll super great.


What kind of sealant are you using in your 5000 TLs?


I'm using Orange Seal and can't comment on punctures either. Ironically, I don't think I'm any faster (maybe slower) on the 5000 TLs vs the 4000s tubed. However, I'm really starting to dig the feel of the ride with the lower PSI. I had picked up some 5000 TLs on sale as an "experiment". Just ordered some more. Running one set of wheels tubeless, while the rest are 4000s (I swear I have a surplus of those tires).

My new (to me) wheels are supposed to show up today with 5000 TLs mounted on them, so I'll try to pick up some Orange Seal. Wheel see what happens.

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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Sparks wrote:

Thanks for the reply. I'll probably try whichever of those I can most easily get my hands on. And maybe they're working beyond your wildest dreams, but you just don't know it!

They're both fine (from prior experience).

My 2 cents is that Orange works slightly better. But Orange is a biatch to get off your frame and other bits if it sprays everywhere. While Stan's (for me) peels off pretty nicely.

Continental recommends Conti Revo sealant (duh), but I don't know if that's just pure self-promotion or if the GP5000 is actually engineered to work well with their own sealant.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Sparks wrote:


Thanks for the reply. I'll probably try whichever of those I can most easily get my hands on. And maybe they're working beyond your wildest dreams, but you just don't know it!


They're both fine (from prior experience).

My 2 cents is that Orange works slightly better. But Orange is a biatch to get off your frame and other bits if it sprays everywhere. While Stan's (for me) peels off pretty nicely.

Continental recommends Conti Revo sealant (duh), but I don't know if that's just pure self-promotion or if the GP5000 is actually engineered to work well with their own sealant.

Yeah, I saw that recommendation from Conti too. That's one of the reasons I wanted to see what others were using. Apparently Contis don't explode or disintegrate with other sealant brands. Who knows if Contis sealant actually seals better.

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Another question I am wondering about: if you have a complete (or nearly complete) deflation after a flat, but then are able to successfully fix the tire hole with a homemade plug (per your directions), is it possible to reseat the tubeless tire in the filed with a portable hand or mini or frame pump (i.e., no compressor or CO2) ?


Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...Direct-mount & ZeroSlip-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Another question I am wondering about: if you have a complete (or nearly complete) deflation after a flat, but then are able to successfully fix the tire hole with a homemade plug (per your directions), is it possible to reseat the tubeless tire in the filed with a portable hand or mini or frame pump (i.e., no compressor or CO2) ?

IME, after the sealant has been in the tire for a bit, it forms a cured layer at the bead that discourages it coming off the rim shelf, even when completely deflated. So, as long as you don't manually push it off the shelf (like you would need to do if installing a tube), then once the hole is plugged, you're good to go. No re-seating necessary...just pump it up.

You can see that dried layer along the bead in this pic (e.g. near my thumb) I grabbed from the blog post (https://bikeblather.blogspot.com/...s-tire-plugging.html)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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I had my first flat today with my Continental 5000 TLs. I honestly didn't know I had the "flat" until I got to the top of a climb. The Orange Seal obviously worked. I was kind of able to inflate it some more with CO2 and rode 40 miles home. You can see the residue sprayed all over the back of my bike. It was interesting cleaning it off...kind of peeled off the wheel well.

OK, a few questions for those with some experience with road tubeless:

1) Is this tire shot based on the puncture in the photo? It doesn't appear to be leaking (no bubbles with the soapy water test).
2) Should I add some sealant based on how much leaked out sealing the puncture?
3) How do you use CO2 to inflate while on the road. One straight shot or in spurts?

Thanks for the help!





"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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Bontrager Aeolus XXX6 w GP5K TL 25mm fairly easy.

Bontrager Aeolus Pro 5 w Bontrager AW3 26mm 2 broken levers.

I had AW3 24mm on for past 2 years and I remember it was not easy. This seem worse. Odd when it’s the same brand.

Gonna try those problem solver levers.

http://www.TriScottsdale.org
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [allenpg] [ In reply to ]
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"1) Is this tire shot based on the puncture in the photo? It doesn't appear to be leaking (no bubbles with the soapy water test).
2) Should I add some sealant based on how much leaked out sealing the puncture?
3) How do you use CO2 to inflate while on the road. One straight shot or in spurts?
"

1. If it was me, and it was holding air at-or-above my normal riding pressure, I'd ride it.
2. Yes.
3. Just as you normally would. But it kind of depends on the puncture. If the tire completely lost pressure and came unseated, you'd need to blast the beads back into place. But that means that the tire probably wouldn't be sealing up anyway (i.e. if the puncture was so bad that you lost all of your air). So, just inflate as normal. Just be sure to spin the wheel/tire quickly thereafter to distribute the sealant.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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So I'm having the damnedest time seating a Schwalbe Pro One 28 mm onto my Hed Vanquish 8. Firstly the tire goes on really easy which already seems at odds with what others seem to be saying. I put a sh*t ton of sealant (as so much dripped out while i was trying to figure this out) in and tried to inflate with floor pump. No go so I bought a Schwalbe tire booster and put 150 psi into it. Nada. All I hear is the air leaking out as there is no popping of the bead. Any thoughts?
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Old lungs] [ In reply to ]
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Old lungs wrote:
So I'm having the damnedest time seating a Schwalbe Pro One 28 mm onto my Hed Vanquish 8. Firstly the tire goes on really easy which already seems at odds with what others seem to be saying. I put a sh*t ton of sealant (as so much dripped out while i was trying to figure this out) in and tried to inflate with floor pump. No go so I bought a Schwalbe tire booster and put 150 psi into it. Nada. All I hear is the air leaking out as there is no popping of the bead. Any thoughts?

Hmm... do you have a video?

I haven't used that Schwalbe tire tool... I normally use a CO2 cartridge to inflate tires that are fitting loosely. This video shows how:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...stallation_7389.html

You need a large volume of air to rush into the tire very quickly.

Other thoughts:

-Might need additional layers of tubeless tape, to build up the wheel diameter.
-Your tape could be installed improperly - i.e. not stuck down all the way, allowing for air to escape into the spoke holes.
-Valve could be installed improperly.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in the midst of my first foray into the world of tubeless, road or otherwise. The rim/tire combo of HED Vanquish 6 and Conti 5000TL seems to be a good one so far. I can get the tires onto the rims by hand and without too much effort. The beads seat solidly with an air compressor. But I am having issues getting them to hold air.

Long story short, I re-taped them with two wraps of Stan's, and tried airing them up right away. The result was air leaking out the weep holes on the side of the rim and the time deflating from 90 PSI within 5-10 minutes. I decided to try re-taping them with one wrap of DT Swiss, and tried airing them up right away. This tape job seemed really good since I was now a veteran, but the result was the same. So I put tubes and a different set of tires on and rode on them for four days. I put the tubeless tire back on the front today and aired it up to 74.6PSI at 9AM this morning. I checked it at noon and it was at 73.2. At 3PM it was 72.6. And at 5PM, 72.2. Major progress compared to where I started.

Now for the questions: Dump sealant in it and see if it seals up completely? Or re-tape, put tubes in for a day or so, and try again? I wonder if airing them up right after re-taping them caused some small gaps between the tape and rim that I just can't see and that the tube couldn't seal.

ETA: I have more tape and am willing to try re-taping. I'm interested in getting this done right, not getting it done quickly.

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Last edited by: Sparks: Apr 2, 20 17:37
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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Sparks wrote:
I'm in the midst of my first foray into the world of tubeless, road or otherwise. The rim/tire combo of HED Vanquish 6 and Conti 5000TL seems to be a good one so far. I can get the tires onto the rims by hand and without too much effort. The beads seat solidly with an air compressor. But I am having issues getting them to hold air.

Long story short, I re-taped them with two wraps of Stan's, and tried airing them up right away. The result was air leaking out the weep holes on the side of the rim and the time deflating from 90 PSI within 5-10 minutes. I decided to try re-taping them with one wrap of DT Swiss, and tried airing them up right away. This tape job seemed really good since I was now a veteran, but the result was the same. So I put tubes and a different set of tires on and rode on them for four days. I put the tubeless tire back on the front today and aired it up to 74.6PSI at 9AM this morning. I checked it at noon and it was at 73.2. At 3PM it was 72.6. And at 5PM, 72.2. Major progress compared to where I started.

Now for the questions: Dump sealant in it and see if it seals up completely? Or re-tape, put tubes in for a day or so, and try again? I wonder if airing them up right after re-taping them caused some small gaps between the tape and rim that I just can't see and that the tube couldn't seal.

ETA: I have more tape and am willing to try re-taping. I'm interested in getting this done right, not getting it done quickly.

"The result was air leaking out the weep holes on the side of the rim"

Weep holes... are you talking about the water drain holes that some deep section rims have? This is usually somewhere in the sidewall of the rim, fairly close to the brake track (but designed to drain water from the large aero rim cavity). If that's what you're talking about, this tells me that your tape is not seating down properly, and air is leaking through the spoke holes and into the other part of the rim.

^If this is what's going on, you want to remove the tires, and tape. Clean the rim bed out VERY well with 90% rubbing alcohol. If it was me, I'd install two wraps of new tape (i.e. Stan's, or whatever is the appropriate width for your rim). I say two wraps because it sounds like the interface between that tire and rim is possibly a bit loose ("I can get the tires onto the rims by hand and without too much effort.")... which can also lead to potential air retention issues. Wrap the tape TIGHT. Once the tape is installed, I'd install a normal tube and tire, and inflate it to 90psi and let it sit overnight. This will help stick the tape down. Remove the tire and tube, and install the Cont tubeless tire you were using (along with the proper tubeless valve... I'm not sure what HED gives you with the Vanquish... but if you have the wrong valve, they can leak).

Also, I see that you haven't used any sealant yet. Road tubeless tires are NOT going to be perfectly airtight without a tubeless-specific sealant. The only tires that will be "airtight" with no sealant are older, now-defunct MTB tires that meet the old UST standards (these tires were super thick and heavy, but super easy to deal with in terms of inflation). And even when you do use a tubeless sealant in a road tubeless tire, they will still leak down over time, just like tires with tubes. If you really want to limit the leak-down, you can try this stuff: http://stayfill.com/

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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gregk wrote:
Sparks wrote:
I'm in the midst of my first foray into the world of tubeless, road or otherwise. The rim/tire combo of HED Vanquish 6 and Conti 5000TL seems to be a good one so far. I can get the tires onto the rims by hand and without too much effort. The beads seat solidly with an air compressor. But I am having issues getting them to hold air.

Long story short, I re-taped them with two wraps of Stan's, and tried airing them up right away. The result was air leaking out the weep holes on the side of the rim and the time deflating from 90 PSI within 5-10 minutes. I decided to try re-taping them with one wrap of DT Swiss, and tried airing them up right away. This tape job seemed really good since I was now a veteran, but the result was the same. So I put tubes and a different set of tires on and rode on them for four days. I put the tubeless tire back on the front today and aired it up to 74.6PSI at 9AM this morning. I checked it at noon and it was at 73.2. At 3PM it was 72.6. And at 5PM, 72.2. Major progress compared to where I started.

Now for the questions: Dump sealant in it and see if it seals up completely? Or re-tape, put tubes in for a day or so, and try again? I wonder if airing them up right after re-taping them caused some small gaps between the tape and rim that I just can't see and that the tube couldn't seal.

ETA: I have more tape and am willing to try re-taping. I'm interested in getting this done right, not getting it done quickly.


"The result was air leaking out the weep holes on the side of the rim"

Weep holes... are you talking about the water drain holes that some deep section rims have? This is usually somewhere in the sidewall of the rim, fairly close to the brake track (but designed to drain water from the large aero rim cavity). If that's what you're talking about, this tells me that your tape is not seating down properly, and air is leaking through the spoke holes and into the other part of the rim.

^If this is what's going on, you want to remove the tires, and tape. Clean the rim bed out VERY well with 90% rubbing alcohol. If it was me, I'd install two wraps of new tape (i.e. Stan's, or whatever is the appropriate width for your rim). I say two wraps because it sounds like the interface between that tire and rim is possibly a bit loose ("I can get the tires onto the rims by hand and without too much effort.")... which can also lead to potential air retention issues. Wrap the tape TIGHT. Once the tape is installed, I'd install a normal tube and tire, and inflate it to 90psi and let it sit overnight. This will help stick the tape down. Remove the tire and tube, and install the Cont tubeless tire you were using (along with the proper tubeless valve... I'm not sure what HED gives you with the Vanquish... but if you have the wrong valve, they can leak).

Also, I see that you haven't used any sealant yet. Road tubeless tires are NOT going to be perfectly airtight without a tubeless-specific sealant. The only tires that will be "airtight" with no sealant are older, now-defunct MTB tires that meet the old UST standards (these tires were super thick and heavy, but super easy to deal with in terms of inflation). And even when you do use a tubeless sealant in a road tubeless tire, they will still leak down over time, just like tires with tubes. If you really want to limit the leak-down, you can try this stuff: http://stayfill.com/

Water drain holes, yeah, that's what I meant. After running tubes all week, no air is leaking from the drain holes, but I think air may still be coming through the spoke holes. I tried putting a soap solution on the spoke nipples, but the leak down is so slow, I did see any bubbles.

DT Swiss calls for one wrap (I'm pretty sure it's the same as HED's black tape, which HED says to wrap once), but I could certainly try two to tighten things up.

I didn't want to use the sealant to try to mask a fundamental problem. I'll definitely use it once I get these relatively air tight.

I'm going to re-tape them and see what happens. What's reasonable in terms of air leaking/PSI loss? In other words, how can I tell if I've resolved tape, valve, seating issues? They don't lose any pressure in an hour? Longer?

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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"What's reasonable in terms of air leaking/PSI loss? In other words, how can I tell if I've resolved tape, valve, seating issues? They don't lose any pressure in an hour? Longer?"

I have never tracked this by the hour. Maybe someone else here has. It has generally seemed on-par with butyl tube air loss... maybe a little bit faster. I normally pump up before every ride, because I set my air pressure appropriately (i.e. not artificially high, which would give me more buffer to combat natural leak-down). If I'm storing tubeless wheels that will go unridden for months, I pump them up to the highest allowable pressure, and try to remember to check on them at least once a month to add air and give them a spin.

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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My 30mm Schwalbe G-One tyres with Hutchison ProtectAir Max sealant in lose around 10psi in a week. That's roughly 0.06psi per hour.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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You are thinking about this way too much

Put the sealant in.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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Mike,

New convert to tubeless here. I run Schwalbe Pro One’s on HED Jet 6+ wheels. One wrap of the HED tape. My experience was that the front held pressure w/o sealant well, the rear would lose pressure and go soft after about 8 hours or so. I deflated, put in the sealant via the stem, re-inflated the tires and gave them a spin, and they are holding air better than tubes ever did. I think you are 98% there and the sealant will take care of the last 2%.

I pump my tires to 80 PSI before every ride, and it seems that tubeless holds pressure better than butyl tubes, and much better than latex tubes.

Good luck with your set up, I hope it works well for you. And thanks again to Greg and this thread. It was what got me to make the leap to try tubeless and I am happy I did.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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gregk wrote:
"What's reasonable in terms of air leaking/PSI loss? In other words, how can I tell if I've resolved tape, valve, seating issues? They don't lose any pressure in an hour? Longer?"

I have never tracked this by the hour. Maybe someone else here has. It has generally seemed on-par with butyl tube air loss... maybe a little bit faster. I normally pump up before every ride, because I set my air pressure appropriately (i.e. not artificially high, which would give me more buffer to combat natural leak-down). If I'm storing tubeless wheels that will go unridden for months, I pump them up to the highest allowable pressure, and try to remember to check on them at least once a month to add air and give them a spin.

Thanks, Greg. I didn't write my question as clearly as I could have. What I'm wondering about is initial setup without sealant. But hopefully it's an academic question since I re-taped the wheels last night. I put tubes and tires on overnight, and just rode 80 miles. Hopefully that does the job. We'll see.

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
You are thinking about this way too much

Put the sealant in.

Undoubtedly.

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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Hey all -

Heads up on another tubeless-related article on the home page (review of the DT Swiss GR 1600 gravel wheels, including a video installation of WTB Byway 650x47 tires). Check it!

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...eel_Review_7625.html

Greg Kopecky - Slowtwitch Tech Editor
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Re: Tubeless wheel and tire SUPER THREAD [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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Sparks wrote:
I didn't want to use the sealant to try to mask a fundamental problem. I'll definitely use it once I get these relatively air tight.

One of the points of using sealant is to seal any small air leaks related to the installation (eg, around the valve). I've had good luck with 2 layers of Stan's and 1-2 oz of Orange Seal. Ironically, I had probably gotten 2 punctures on my tubed 4000s in the past 6 months, then 2 in the past month on my 5000 TLs. These were pretty good sized gashes. One trashed a tire (sealed, but not worth the risk of still riding on it). The good news is that the sealant worked in both instances. I didn't even know I had gotten a puncture until I got home and saw sealant on the frame.

I'm still not totally bought into road tubeless given how much of a MF it is to install the 5000 TL (DT Swiss ARCs and no name carbon rims). I actually install the tires a coupe of times on an old alloy rim just to break the bead in. Makes it much easier to install on the carbon rims then.

Road tubeless is an experiment for me on just 1 set of wheels. Everything else is tubed. I've been using tubeless for about a decade now for MTB/CX, where it's a no brainer.

"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com
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