You probably are right but not be as much fun. At the end of the day it is about having fun. I am okay if i never get faster on the bike. Folks still have to beat me to the finish. Am in my ag there are not a lot of folks still able to race

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I don't know why figuring out a good position is any less fun than fooling around with crank lengths. Obviously not worth buying a Guru fit machine but spending a couple sessions on one seems like it would be fun and at the end of the day you'd end up being faster which has to be fun!

Can you highlight from your data why/where 140 is any better than say 165 ?

jctriguy wrote: "Frank, I think the current discussion illustrates the folly of this entire process. You’ve ‘proven’ that Dave can use a range of crank length and cadence that fits with what is normally speced and available on bikes. Since his fit is also not impacted by ‘normal’ cranks and might be impacted by short cranks, seems like the best bet is some 170/175’s. He also has 175’s so that saves him money for another trip to corporate theme parks or a 5th velotron.

You don’t have enough data, consistent data, or reliable data to show any difference in performance from the range of crank lengths you’ve tried. Sure, the 200’s are crap, but anything from 150-175 is the same based on the data.

Hence, the educated and experienced fitters recommended a totally different approach to what you’ve done. They get the same results in a few hours vs a few months. Dave bought your snake oil crap because his desire to be different is greater than his desire to improve his performance. That’s fine, but everyone should be clear what this is about, Dave being different. Everyone that wants to improve performance with a bike fit should go to a good fitter and get this process done in a few quick sessions.

I am really baffled by some of the stuff that comes back to me.

Yes, I have proven that crank length hardly matters WHEN HE IS IN THE UPRIGHT POSITION. What our testing has also shown the using 175 cranks in the aero position costs him about 20 watts compared to 150 cranks. How can anyone know this without doing the testing? Should he ignore that data because you folks think you can get him into a good position on 175 cranks? You gonna make up that 20 watts?

And, it is silly to say that he can’t learn anything indoors. Lots of pros do all their training indoors.

Then there is the issue of aerodynamics, the only way to test this is outdoors. I might point out that most bike fits designed to improve “speed” (aerodynamics are done indoors.

Also, Dave wanted my input as to what to do with his pads/seat. I wouldn’t make any changes right now as I would like to just change one thing at a time and I want to see if we can increase his drop some and still keep him comfortable. That is probably better done in person by a bike fitter which Dve is planning on getting done. We need to decide on a crank length before then so he doesn’t waste that effort.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

True, and probably is. But first, what I am doing is free. Second, it has given me something to focus on the bike for the off season other than just ride. Third, is it not fun having this discussions on ST about this?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Will let Frank answer. Poor guy has the flu real bad so is spending most of his time in bed, rather than the computer, at the moment.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I thought this was Great by Dev, so wanted to put in this thread to keep crank stuff in one place

A shorter crank increases your equivalent gear size, a long crank reduces your equivalent gear size.

Power = Torque x RPM
Power = Force x crank length x RPM

Assume for a second that you keep Power the same and RPM the same

If you reduce crank length, then the only way for Power to stay the same is for Force to go up given your crank length went down.

So by reducing crank length, and keeping the pedal force the same and keeping RPM the same, your power would drop. That's basically what happens when you reduce your gear size at a fixed RPM and crank length. At that fixed crank length you can't go in a lower gear and same RPM and keep power fixed, you need to be in the gear you were in.

So if you keep the same gear ratios and reduce crank length, then force has to go up to keep the same power for a given RPM, or if you keep force the same then RPM can do down if you stay at the same crank length and reduce RPM. In other words, when you go to a smaller crank length, its basically the same as pushing a harder gear if you did not change crank length and reduced RPM

I probably went around in circles as I typed the first half last nite and the second half this morning without coffee, but hopefully the salient points came through.

Smaller crank length is higher effective gearing with everything being the same compared to long cranks which in effect are lower gearing. This is why H20fun used to climb better on long cranks sitting up....he just had the equivalent to lower gearing. The key to this last statement was "sitting up". It's why he had so many issues riding aero.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just going to link the entire thread another posted on shorter cranks since great stuff


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?page=unread#unread

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

How much drop are you at right now ? IIRC you started at 80 but it sounds like you are now at 110. Am I off ?

Dev, makes sense. I had no issues with my 200's sitting up climbing hills. I could even force myself into aero most of the time in a race. But could I do aero in the powercranks for any amount of time with 200's on the trainer, nope! With the shorter cranks, no longer an issue. But, am concerned that I am losing some of the low end gearing I used and loved for the hills. BUT, I really do not want to have to buy a bunch of new parts since I have 3 bikes setup the same way, so shall see.

Off to the long run

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I am at 110 now.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

And you were 80, correct ? If so, 30mm is a lot. Why did you add drop ?

Again I find myself writing:


WTF?


Do even know what your point is anymore?



Dozens of times you have suggested no one, no one! is recommending shorter cranks (despite all of the recommendations in your first fit post about how you needed short cranks)(despite all of the articles and fit threads on ST recommending shorter cranks).

No one No One! Is recommending different cadences (despite even rubbish articles on GTN suggesting testing cadences)(despite all of the threads talking about cadence on this site)


Now you are still ignoring fit advice from people that make really good recommendations and still try to do this fit on a bike they doesn’t really have the ability to replicate the proper tribune postion with that slack as could be seat tube angle.


And now! I don’t even care if I am faster despite all of you posts to the contrary prior.

Seriously, you are so lost in that disheveled den of weird trainers you don’t even know your pint anymore (nor seemingly ever did-reference all of the posts trying to clarify what it was you were testing in the first eight pages of this thread).


“I don’t even care.” LOL


Ps-I’m in line at Disney. You should try it.

Your conflicting messages are mostly just frustrating. On one hand you seem to want to learn something about going faster but then when advice is given you don't agree with you say you don't care and are just "having fun". You post messages from Frank who appears desperately intent on showing that crank length matters and needs to be optimized so he can sell his adjustable cranks.

On the trainer, since I sit up most of the time, I had the bars like at zero. So when I started the testing with Frank, since I was sitting up, bar height
made no difference. And with the 200's in Powercranks mode, I could not get into the bars for very long. Plus my bad back and right leg.

So Frank just had me slowly move the bars down, test, and see how I felt.

For some reason I thought my bars on my road were like at 110.

Why did I move lower? Everyone seems to be saying but you have to get lower, you have to have a flat back. So just like 125 cranks seems like a bust,
we are trying to see about drop. Not sure I want to go any lower.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks for you observations. I will be in line at Disney next Weds.

Merry Christmas

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well, I guess you have the right to think what you want.

Merry Christmas

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Please detail how you arrived at the number of 20 watts. Based on the data, I'd say that is extremely suspect to come to that conclusion. Probably the same 'math' that tells you the average powercrank user gains 40% in power. You did 3 'trials' with 150 and 175, found something that you think meets your biased opinion and moved on to the next 'revelation'. What about the day with 108 HR, or the 'data' that shows 130 and 135mm cranks on complete opposite ends of the performance spectrum. One of the worst efforts on the 5mile TT is on 150 cranks, what gives there??

The 'data' is so suspect and random that any conclusion you draw is guessing and massively influenced by the answer you pre-determined to be correct. You and Dave are two peas in a pod. You both have the insatiable desire to do everything differently just to be different, and in the course of that journey you insult all the people that have laid the groundwork for conventional wisdom, take far longer to come to some conclusion, and most likely, find something that either isn't relevant for anyone or is just plain worse than conventional wisdom would've achieved.

Drank is Tar Baby. Rabbit starts out with a greeting. Gets frustrated. Ends up covered in Tar. All of us who respond to Drank are destined for the same.
Dave is a frightened little man who trains in his house, afraid of having a flat tire. Pitiful. Needs to change his signature line to "Cowed old guys train indoors"

Thank you

Merry Christmas

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

At least part of this could be due to how slack Dave's seat angle is. Currently he is not in a tri position, but a conventional road position. Sitting farther back closes the hip angle, and has the same effect as using a longer crank.

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"