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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Warbird] [ In reply to ]
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Warbird wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


So here is the background. I have ridden for years with my seat like 5 mm in front of the BB. But then folks started to tell me with my video posts my knee relative to the
pedal was way too far forward, and should go back. I also still have my Tri bike that is 82 degrees that I was fitted on for this 5mm in front.

When I got fitted, my seat was pushed way back to get the knee closer to the pedal, which is now like 95mm behind the BB, which yep, would make it much more slack.

This is why I am posting my current. One fitter suggests one thing, another fitter a different.

So, where do you suggest I put the saddle position compared to the BB?

Thanks


Ignore the knee position over the pedal.

Take a look at the fitting articles elsewhere on this site. Your lower body angles are all within the ideal ranges, which means you are "bent over" about as much as most of the Kona top 10. The difference is that you are sitting farther back, which means you have rotated back around the BB. Keep your lower body angles the same, but rotate forward around the BB. This will move you forward, and "flatten" your back. However, since your saddle remains level, this means that you will have to rotate your pelvis. If you don't know how to do this, or have a saddle that doesn't allow you to, you won't be able to go lower unless you actually bend your back. Some people can do this with a conventional saddle, others can't (hence the popularity of ISM and similar saddles).

Where you really deviate from standard fitting conventions is your arm angle and pad placement. Your torso/arm angle is currently 69 degrees, it should be closer to 90.

So, if I move my seat forward, going to make the torso arm angle worse, right? Easy to play with trying to get to 90.

Thanks

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Even with your current seat position, your bars and pads need to move forward. And if you move the seat, they move as well...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Warbird] [ In reply to ]
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Warbird wrote: "Ignore the knee position over the pedal.

Take a look at the fitting articles elsewhere on this site. Your lower body angles are all within the ideal ranges, which means you are "bent over" about as much as most of the Kona top 10. The difference is that you are sitting farther back, which means you have rotated back around the BB. Keep your lower body angles the same, but rotate forward around the BB. This will move you forward, and "flatten" your back. However, since your saddle remains level, this means that you will have to rotate your pelvis. If you don't know how to do this, or have a saddle that doesn't allow you to, you won't be able to go lower unless you actually bend your back. Some people can do this with a conventional saddle, others can't (hence the popularity of ISM and similar saddles).

Where you really deviate from standard fitting conventions is your arm angle and pad placement. Your torso/arm angle is currently 69 degrees, it should be closer to 90.”

A couple of comments. I agree with ignoring the knee position over the pedal with this exception. I can make a strong argument for his using arch cleats, to move the foot forward. Even if it makes no difference in power it does “save” the calf muscles a bit because there is better leverage when pushing down. This could help his run if the calf has saved energy during the bike.

Next, it sounds simple to just rotate the body over the BB to flatten the back. The problem is this moves everything forward so a much longer stem is required and now much more weight is on the elbows. This can be very tiring if one isn’t used to it. It does little good to have a great aero position if the rider cannot maintain it. That is what it looks like happened to his 200 fit, the fitter scrunched him up to get the “right” numbers and Dave simply couldn’t maintain it. His new position looks much more relaxed and Dave is able to ride the aero position for prolonged periods (compared to before) without any difficulty. that having been said using arch clears moves the foot forward which would allow the seat to move forward (rotating around the BB) and still maintain angles.

I also don’t like referring to fitting to a straight back. I prefer looking at a flat chest. It is the chest that scoops up the air and is the main determinant of aero drag because how how it changes frontal area. A "flat back" fit frequently ends up like Dave’s 200 fit, a flat back but awful in terms of comfort.

Whoever does Dave’s bike fit is going to be treading in unfamiliar territory.

Frank Day (

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Warbird] [ In reply to ]
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Warbird wrote:
Even with your current seat position, your bars and pads need to move forward. And if you move the seat, they move as well...

I have always ridden my P2 with 140 stems. I just changed to 90's since my fit said bring them back. But, maybe I lost the ratio.

So Frank, what do you think? Should I move the bars/pads forward some to try and get the 90 degrees and see how it feels?
Should I move the seat forward some, and if so, how much. (Which also means moving the bars forward)

Thanks for the inputs.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I have superimposed your position from the 200 and 145 videos. I think this superimposition is pretty worthless to demonstrate the fit changes as the camera was oriented a little differently and a different distance from you these two times. Note, the dots on the crank lengths are almost identical despite huge differences in crank length. You told me you had zero drop before but clearly this isn’t true comparing the elbow and saddle drops. What that drop did was to scrunch you up though and as we know now that was costing you a lot in power. Your new position looks a lot more relaxed and while I don’t see any obvious aero improvements per se there will be a huge improvement in race times if you can actually stay in that position. Plus, there might be more than I can see because these two pictures are so different.

A couple of thoughts to improve things. I would experiment with slightly bigger drop. I know you are resistant but you also resisted going to really short cranks. Go to 85.
Move your cleats back, That moves your foot forward and will bring the foot closer to being under the knee. They make shoes with arch cleats just for this purpose.




Frank Day

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
.
Will be the pits if I cannot put this stuff onto my race bike. This could force me to a longer crank length just to get the seat height to work.


You may want to double and triple check how you are going to achieve your drop
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
.
Will be the pits if I cannot put this stuff onto my race bike. This could force me to a longer crank length just to get the seat height to work.



You may want to double and triple check how you are going to achieve your drop

I just checked the bike. I was pretty shocked to see I put the seat on the P2 all the way up to the white mark, and with the seat I have on it now, it was 940mm from the BB,
so room for any crazy thing I might want to do.

I also checked the bar drops. My concern is they do not go up far enough. One has the tube cut, the other does not. But if I set the seat to 870 for 150mm cranks, they just make it to 110m drop. One could come up some, the other not without an adjustable stem.

So at the moment, I am right on the edge.

Waiting to get Franks input on pushing the bars and or seat forward some. Since I have longer stems, would not be hard to do on my race bikes either.

So, am I thinking about drop correctly or am I missing what you are saying?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]
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Power = f (Torque x RPM )

You know I was thinking that crank length should actually line up with shoe size.

Bigger shoes = longer cranks, just to clear all that foot space/lever size. Move the cleats back, or small feet are better suited to the shorter cranks.

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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM wrote:
Power = f (Torque x RPM )

You know I was thinking that crank length should actually line up with shoe size.

Bigger shoes = longer cranks, just to clear all that foot space/lever size. Move the cleats back, or small feet are better suited to the shorter cranks.

Wow, I am in trouble since I have size 14 shoes, and my cleats are all the way back.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Frank, I think the current discussion illustrates the folly of this entire process. You’ve â€proven’ that Dave can use a range of crank length and cadence that fits with what is normally speced and available on bikes. Since his fit is also not impacted by â€normal’ cranks and might be impacted by short cranks, seems like the best bet is some 170/175’s. He also has 175’s so that saves him money for another trip to corporate theme parks or a 5th velotron.

You don’t have enough data, consistent data, or reliable data to show any difference in performance from the range of crank lengths you’ve tried. Sure, the 200’s are crap, but anything from 150-175 is the same based on the data.

Hence, the educated and experienced fitters recommended a totally different approach to what you’ve done. They get the same results in a few hours vs a few months. Dave bought your snake oil crap because his desire to be different is greater than his desire to improve his performance. That’s fine, but everyone should be clear what this is about, Dave being different. Everyone that wants to improve performance with a bike fit should go to a good fitter and get this process done in a few quick sessions.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.

Jctriguy wrote:
Frank, I think the current discussion illustrates the folly of this entire process. You’ve â€proven’ that Dave can use a range of crank length and cadence that fits with what is normally speced and available on bikes. Since his fit is also not impacted by â€normal’ cranks and might be impacted by short cranks, seems like the best bet is some 170/175’s. He also has 175’s so that saves him money for another trip to corporate theme parks or a 5th velotron.

You don’t have enough data, consistent data, or reliable data to show any difference in performance from the range of crank lengths you’ve tried. Sure, the 200’s are crap, but anything from 150-175 is the same based on the data.

Hence, the educated and experienced fitters recommended a totally different approach to what you’ve done. They get the same results in a few hours vs a few months. Dave bought your snake oil crap because his desire to be different is greater than his desire to improve his performance. That’s fine, but everyone should be clear what this is about, Dave being different. Everyone that wants to improve performance with a bike fit should go to a good fitter and get this process done in a few quick sessions.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Gen Secretary] [ In reply to ]
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Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.

Exactly. Allow the body to work effectively combined with an aerodynamic position. It’s pretty easy to see how certain positions will impact ability to produce power. Dave would’ve easily seen this if he ever did performance testing or used a power meter in races.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Gen Secretary] [ In reply to ]
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Are you Frank day??
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.

So true. When I ride what for me is my gold standard Martis TT route, I never look at power, HR, etc. I just try to get the best bike fit for the fastest time.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.


So true. When I ride what for me is my gold standard Martis TT route, I never look at power, HR, etc. I just try to get the best bike fit for the fastest time.
Are you talking about an outdoor route or the one you ride on your trainer?
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.


So true. When I ride what for me is my gold standard Martis TT route, I never look at power, HR, etc. I just try to get the best bike fit for the fastest time.
Are you talking about an outdoor route or the one you ride on your trainer?

This is the one I have ridden on my Trainer, as I was preparing for IMLT 2013. I made it from an actual ride posted from a person and modified it.
Much harder and better than the IMLT real course video I was involved in helping to get made. (I am even in it which was cool)

Super hard. But so easy to ride since I can do on my trainer. The real stuff is too far, and actually impossible to ride since the Martis part is closed to the public.

And since the route is 100% the same, I can easily compare efforts.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.


So true. When I ride what for me is my gold standard Martis TT route, I never look at power, HR, etc. I just try to get the best bike fit for the fastest time.
Are you talking about an outdoor route or the one you ride on your trainer?


This is the one I have ridden on my Trainer, as I was preparing for IMLT 2013. I made it from an actual ride posted from a person and modified it.
Much harder and better than the IMLT real course video I was involved in helping to get made. (I am even in it which was cool)

Super hard. But so easy to ride since I can do on my trainer. The real stuff is too far, and actually impossible to ride since the Martis part is closed to the public.

And since the route is 100% the same, I can easily compare efforts.
The only way to test whether a fit is optimized for speed is to ride outdoors. You can't measure the effects of position changes while riding indoors.

The time for your virtual Martis course is only loosely correlated to actual time on the real course.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Which is why I have so many Velotrons.
It looks like you have 4? Why so many? I think I'd be happy with one.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.


So true. When I ride what for me is my gold standard Martis TT route, I never look at power, HR, etc. I just try to get the best bike fit for the fastest time.
Are you talking about an outdoor route or the one you ride on your trainer?


This is the one I have ridden on my Trainer, as I was preparing for IMLT 2013. I made it from an actual ride posted from a person and modified it.
Much harder and better than the IMLT real course video I was involved in helping to get made. (I am even in it which was cool)

Super hard. But so easy to ride since I can do on my trainer. The real stuff is too far, and actually impossible to ride since the Martis part is closed to the public.

And since the route is 100% the same, I can easily compare efforts.
The only way to test whether a fit is optimized for speed is to ride outdoors. You can't measure the effects of position changes while riding indoors.

The time for your virtual Martis course is only loosely correlated to actual time on the real course.

Why not? Seems to me it would be much more accurate than riding outside

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Which is why I have so many Velotrons.
It looks like you have 4? Why so many? I think I'd be happy with one.

Great question. This is why I try to watch what things I do. I always get carried away.

What has been great now is I have 3 off them setup differently. So I can ride the one I want to try, and not have to be changing one around all the time.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.


So true. When I ride what for me is my gold standard Martis TT route, I never look at power, HR, etc. I just try to get the best bike fit for the fastest time.
Are you talking about an outdoor route or the one you ride on your trainer?


This is the one I have ridden on my Trainer, as I was preparing for IMLT 2013. I made it from an actual ride posted from a person and modified it.
Much harder and better than the IMLT real course video I was involved in helping to get made. (I am even in it which was cool)

Super hard. But so easy to ride since I can do on my trainer. The real stuff is too far, and actually impossible to ride since the Martis part is closed to the public.

And since the route is 100% the same, I can easily compare efforts.
The only way to test whether a fit is optimized for speed is to ride outdoors. You can't measure the effects of position changes while riding indoors.

The time for your virtual Martis course is only loosely correlated to actual time on the real course.


Why not? Seems to me it would be much more accurate than riding outside
It's not remotely accurate because it doesn't take into account the number one contributor to drag on the race course.

Your biggest inhibitor appears to be your riding position. If you can figure out how to ride comfortably with your head a few inches lower than it is now you'll be a lot faster on the course but your Martis time will be the same or longer as it is now.

You've got over 1200 posts talking about crank length which is not your primary issue. You're tall enough that crank length is not really an issue stopping you from getting lower. You could likely make do with standard cranks while significantly lowering your profile.
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, did not hear back from Frank but decided, what the heck, I adjusted the trainer to give some of the inputs a try tomorrow on my 10 mile TT course.

With the way my seating works on the velotron, I cannot move the seat forward just a little. So I have it as far back as I could get with my adjustment, so I went from like 95mm behind
to like 10mm behind the BB. I then went from 495 from the seat nose to pad edge to the furthest out the bars go, and its is like 525.

Will see how it feels if I leave while riding. If so, will take another video for inputs.

Thanks for the inputs. Will see what happens.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.


So true. When I ride what for me is my gold standard Martis TT route, I never look at power, HR, etc. I just try to get the best bike fit for the fastest time.
Are you talking about an outdoor route or the one you ride on your trainer?


This is the one I have ridden on my Trainer, as I was preparing for IMLT 2013. I made it from an actual ride posted from a person and modified it.
Much harder and better than the IMLT real course video I was involved in helping to get made. (I am even in it which was cool)

Super hard. But so easy to ride since I can do on my trainer. The real stuff is too far, and actually impossible to ride since the Martis part is closed to the public.

And since the route is 100% the same, I can easily compare efforts.
The only way to test whether a fit is optimized for speed is to ride outdoors. You can't measure the effects of position changes while riding indoors.

The time for your virtual Martis course is only loosely correlated to actual time on the real course.


Why not? Seems to me it would be much more accurate than riding outside
It's not remotely accurate because it doesn't take into account the number one contributor to drag on the race course.

Your biggest inhibitor appears to be your riding position. If you can figure out how to ride comfortably with your head a few inches lower than it is now you'll be a lot faster on the course but your Martis time will be the same or longer as it is now.

You've got over 1200 posts talking about crank length which is not your primary issue. You're tall enough that crank length is not really an issue stopping you from getting lower. You could likely make do with standard cranks while significantly lowering your profile.

By going to shorter cranks in can stay in aero longer. I just do not understand why some think shorter is bad. I have not seen any real negatives until i hit 125.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
Gen Secretary wrote:
Can you direct me to a good bike fitter who can provide evidence sustainable power is improved by their bike fitting in a few hours please.
The primary goal of a bike fit is to maximize speed not power.


So true. When I ride what for me is my gold standard Martis TT route, I never look at power, HR, etc. I just try to get the best bike fit for the fastest time.
Are you talking about an outdoor route or the one you ride on your trainer?


This is the one I have ridden on my Trainer, as I was preparing for IMLT 2013. I made it from an actual ride posted from a person and modified it.
Much harder and better than the IMLT real course video I was involved in helping to get made. (I am even in it which was cool)

Super hard. But so easy to ride since I can do on my trainer. The real stuff is too far, and actually impossible to ride since the Martis part is closed to the public.

And since the route is 100% the same, I can easily compare efforts.
The only way to test whether a fit is optimized for speed is to ride outdoors. You can't measure the effects of position changes while riding indoors.

The time for your virtual Martis course is only loosely correlated to actual time on the real course.


Why not? Seems to me it would be much more accurate than riding outside
It's not remotely accurate because it doesn't take into account the number one contributor to drag on the race course.

Your biggest inhibitor appears to be your riding position. If you can figure out how to ride comfortably with your head a few inches lower than it is now you'll be a lot faster on the course but your Martis time will be the same or longer as it is now.

You've got over 1200 posts talking about crank length which is not your primary issue. You're tall enough that crank length is not really an issue stopping you from getting lower. You could likely make do with standard cranks while significantly lowering your profile.


By going to shorter cranks in can stay in aero longer. I just do not understand why some think shorter is bad. I have not seen any real negatives until i hit 125.
Crank length is not your problem. There may be nothing wrong with 125mm cranks but they're not necessary to fixing your problem which isn't crank length. Your problem that you only tangentially address in this 1200+ post thread is your position.

You're focussing on the wrong component. You'd be better off selling one of your Velotrons and paying for a proper bike fit where they can easily adjust your position and monitor your power output on something like this:

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