So wait, after years of riding bikes, you have figured out that changing gears will change cadence?

To date in race, I just try to focus on racing. I do try to use a garmin which tells me my cadence which now may be more critical to use since I want to see what I am really spinning. I did not have in my last 2 races so I am bummed I have no
data as to what I was really doing. I have zero desire, in a race to deal with more stuff to break or not work than I do. No way would I want to wear a chest strap, but, ..

I can misread posts all the time, no problemo..

But I still would love to have a powermeter setup on the bike for outside. I am trying to get an app going, and a mount on my bike so I can use my smart phone and interface to the sensors. I even though I do not want to, I have started some
to try and put more stuff on the bike to gather more info. Going to try to even live stream racing if I can get a video setup to work. :) Been using a GPS tracking setup with MyAthlete for racing for years until they went out of business.

I really do read and think about all the posts that are made, whether constructive or critical. I just try not to attack anyone back personally since that totally goes against my values of loving to learn by debating.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wow, what do you do in real life?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I am an interpreter.

I spend my days trying to figure what the F you are doing most of the time.

wow, 900 plus replies. Will we get to 1000 before the weekend? :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks, I need all the help I can get.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Findinfreestyle wrote: "IF that data is correct, then the most likely culprit is your position, NOT an inherent power producing advantage of the shorter cranks. Your upper hip angle is likely too pinched with the longer cranks, and the shorter cranks open you up. Depending on how tight those old hips of yours are, 150-155 could be ok, whereas there is not a chance in hell you were optimized on the 200s. But you would have to possess extremely tight hips to need cranks that short, and then the concern becomes the height of the "system" from the ground effecting your aerodynamics and stability. Have you posted any photos or video? I am curious to see what position we are discussing.”

I am just a little confused by this. First you say it isn’t that shorter cranks are inherently more powerful then go on to explain why they could be. Less losses also mean more powerful.

Frank Day (

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Findinfreestyle writes: "If you want an answer you need to normalize the position precisely between trials. Everything, including gearing, saddle, extension shape... everything. So you are using more than one velotron for this? At this point I really think you have enough information to make a choice, and own it, IF you can isolate the stuff that really matters. If you can find it in your heart to ditch one metric, it should really be the HR strap. Power matters, how much drop you can ride and still make that power matters, your preferred cadence when making that power at that drop could be an interesting metric. Anything else is just muddying the waters.

I'm gonna do my best to get you through this.”

I pretty much agree with everything except that preferred cadence thing. Most of us our preferred cadence is what we are used to. It isn’t necessarily what is best for us. I am trying to make Daves preferred cadence the same as the best cadence for him. Helps that he can see the improvement cause that is motivating.

Frank Day (

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

And as long as your races are in that same controlled situation....

You said that the most power implies the fastest time. On a trainer, X watts equals Y mph, regardless of whether you are sitting completely upright or in an Obree-esque Superman position. On the road, its a completely different story. Just sitting slightly more upright can cost me 8 minutes in an Oly for the same effort. If an upright position allows you to put out 20 more watts, but the aero penalty for that position is 50 watts, more power does not equal the fastest time...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Hold on a minute...on one hand, you say this.. "And I will continue to say, all I care about are results. And until all these folks who follow these "experts" beat me in races, well talk is cheap, .... '


So as someone who does beat you in races, I offer my 2cents and say listen to the smart folks on this forum and lose Mr Day... and you think I'm attacking you?

It's advice, Dave. It's a suggestion. It's not an attack.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

I agree

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Did I say YOU were attacking me? I did not!!! Yes, you are an amazing athlete! I have not seen you attacking others, not that I looked, but I assume the positive.

And I did take your input. I just added, as my 2 cents, the top folks I like to interface with have no ego, no my way or the high way, not attacks. When folks ask for my ideas on how they might get better, I always say here is what I do but this may not work for you!!!

I also like to take advice from older folks, who are able to race NOW at a high level, since, ...

So, what length cranks do you use? What RPM do you spin? Have you ever tried any other combo and have any data as to impact?

Thanks

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Stringcheese wrote: "Do you realize that Dan Empfield, findinfreestyle, Tom A, Bjorn, Jim Martin, Monty, Jasoninhalifax, are just some of the really smart folks on this forum that have all contributed suggestions in this thread?

Frank Day is not one I would consider credible. I would place him in more of the "crackpot" category… "

Yes, it is clear that on Slowtwitch that disagreeing with any of the really smart people makes one a crackpot and person not worthy of sharing ideas.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Frank Day wrote: "I pretty much agree with everything except that preferred cadence thing. Most of us our preferred cadence is what we are used to. It isn’t necessarily what is best for us. I am trying to make Daves preferred cadence the same as the best cadence for him. Helps that he can see the improvement cause that is motivating. “

Let me say one more ting about preferred cadence. Study after study has shown that cyclists tend to ride and race at cadences that are not their most efficient. These researchers then turn themselves into knots trying to rationalize and explain why this is so. I can tell you why it is so. It is hard to change old habits and then they hear these rationalizations explaining why they don’t have to try. That is the problem. If there is evidence that changing actually can make a difference the rationalizations will stop and it won’t take long before “everyone" sees the light.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Curious about this. Do you find people's preferred cadence is higher than their most efficient? Do you find that people's most efficient cadence is something that needs to be trained or can be settled into easily?

Occasionally, I'll do low cadence riding (e.g., 75 for me) and while my HR may be lower, I cannot sustain the effort for as long as I could while doing the same wattage at a higher cadence. So, does that mean my more efficient cadence is lower at a shorter duration, is high, or that more training is needed at the lower cadence?

The last time I tt'ed around August, my cadence came in around 97. Not sure I could have put up the same speed/time w/ a lower cadence.

Will let Frank comment, but I have the same thoughts/concerns. As I watch my power on the Velotron, I can see big changes in power levels based on what RPM I am spinning. I get the most power in the 70's. But as you say, it is more work, which would make sense if I am pushing more power. So, where is the balance? Since I did not have my garmin when I raced my last two with 175 cranks and a focus on lower RPM, I do not know how much I was really lower. So I still feel this is one aspect I continue to work on. I know if I go under 70, it starts to takes its toll if I want to push hard. Above 80 I can also feel the fatigue. I am now doing a focus, on the 150 and 145 cranks for a rpm in the mid to upper 70's.

Looking forward to Franks comments on your question since I have the same one.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Even if I look apples to apples and view same power output, the RPE changes dramatically with different cadences. FTP at 75 RPM makes my legs want to explode after 10 min, but FTP at 95 RPM is a tolerable pain for well ... an hour.

Want an happy balance...look at what it does to your run.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Have any facts and data as to what you comment means?

My only data point is I raced on 175's, lower rpm, and ran a 18 something for 3 miles off the bike.

Now as I have written, if I can gain 2 minutes on the bike but lose 1 on the run, is it worth it?

After doing my 145 and 150 testing this morning, I ran my 9.5 mile hilly cross county course in the cold in one of my fastest times
in a while. So I have no idea, but is a very fair concern.

All I can do it try to find a balance on the bike fit, by the numbers, and then race in 6 weeks for my first test and see what happens.

So what is your experience, and data, as to what is a happy balance? I at the moment have no idea.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You asked for the balance, and my counter to you was, is your run times/ability to run off these crank lengths part of the studies? If not, why not? Not worried about it, not factoring that in, what?

eta: I would look at rpm's as a real serious predicator to your run. I'd be shocked if you run better on low 70 cadence vs a high 70/low 80's.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

My legs get really heavy after low cadence work. I don't triathlon much, but I wouldn't want to run with my legs feeling like that.

 They should get heavy because your using a lot of strength with a lower RPM. It's why it's great work for triathletes to do specific low cadence strength work. But I wouldn't that RPM in a triathlon because you have to run on those muscle fatigued legs. I think it was CW who in Kona would ride to a 78 avg rpm and that was considered "low" by most standards/experts (they say that when comparing it to a 90 rpm athlete). I would bet if Dave got to a 81-84 rpm (i dont know what his natural cadence is, i havent read but this last page), he'll find his sweetspot, but it may not be the best pure number for the bike, but again, I think everything has to be looked at what it does to you as a triathlete....so I'd wager that rpm range would be the fastest for bike + run.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Before I go to bed, as it is a different timezone here in Europe, did you ran it with a specific HR range in mind? If not, what was your HR compared to your 'regular' times? And do you run directly after biking? In my experience, even if there is as much as a 20 minute break, I don tend to feel the bike as much, compared to running directly after biking.

Right ... good for training, but not something I'd want to race on.

This is where I just throw my hands up. You made a statement about what was best. I then just ask give me some data on what you are recommending and rather than give an answer, you just keep going. And some attack me that I am not listening

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep