I don't think you understand where the burden of proof lies here, Frank. YOU have stated that lower HR (along with 18 other variables) is your goal, so YOU have the burden to prove that this will lead to faster race times. Where is YOUR supporting evidence for that?

If it were anybody other than Dave, I'd feel bad for them for listening to you without questioning a thing. What exactly are your qualifications for any of this?

Big Endian wrote: "My problem is I keep assuming you guys are trying to minimize variables...

You ought to get Dave to at least record his riding position in each of the records he makes. It would help all of us trying to read along here, and when you or he goes back to look at the data later, you won't have to guess as to how a particular test was done.

Half the problem with this thread is that the details of the test protocols you both are trying to do, are not being communicated clearly. Given Dave's professed ignorance of what it is you are trying to test for, it seems like you (Frank) ought to sit down with him and explain clearly what it is you're trying to figure out with each test and with each new variable. This should actually help you get better data and it will keep Dave from saying "I have no idea what the numbers mean" while he's demanding that we replicate his experiments.”

Half the problem with this thread is hardly anyone is reading what I have written about the protocol but they post anyway preferring to simply try to make Dave look bad. I have tried to explain to both Dave and to those reading this thread what I am trying to do. Dave, I think, is beginning to understand a little bit but not to the degree that he can adequately answer questions other than what he does and what he has observed. He has stated that he is simply doing what I prescribe. He cannot adequately explain the reasons for what I am doing. However, it is apparent that none of you can either even though I believe I have put forth a pretty good explanation of the whys and wherefores of what is going on several times. Indeed it is frustrating. It has taken awhile but at least some of you seem interested in the process now. This is pretty much all about pedal speed and efficiency and all most seem to be able to talk about is crank length and bike fit and whether what I am doing would survive to be published.

Anyhow, I have tried to minimize variables. I don’t know how to do any more than what I have done. The initial phase tried to keep bike fit and power constant, only changing pedal speed. Now, in the aero position, we are making small adjustments in bike fit (drop) while making changes in crank length, trying to keep pedal speed close to the same while changing crank length and seeing power change. We are dealing with humans that have real lives. It is impossible to look at one variable at a time, especially if one wants to do this in a reasonable period of time.

One of the things that makes what we are doing perhaps so unconvincing is it seems improbable that these simple and counterintuitive changes could result in these fairly huge improvements. I simply explain this by the fact that he was so out of whack riding 200 mm cranks at a relatively high cadence was robbing him of a lot of power. Plus, it caused him to have terrible aerodynamics. I anticipate a huge improvement in his bike splits next year when he should have both more power and better aerodynamics. We will see. My guess is that most of you wouldn’t see quite such large improvements if you were to try this but I suspect that 5% is lurking in most of you at a minimum. But, if you won’t do this hard work you will never know.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Trainer road had a podcast that you may want to consider before continuing this discussion.
Is Higher Cadence Better, How Crank Length Affects Power, + More — Ask a Cycling Coach
Are your crank lengths impacting your performance? We have answers in a recent live recording of the Ask a Cycling Coach podcast!
https://video.buffer.com/...2ae7fc7ffc0d568e5327

1. All publicity is good publicity. Every post and quote of his post give Dave a chance to shill for various products/services by means of his signature lines. Lest we forget, beyond PC's, VELOTRON is in his post title. Anyone tempted to click on that later link for the German sounding sexual jizz spray? I haven't yet, but still tempted.

2. Triangulate idiomatically, muddy the waters, move the goalposts and declare that neither victory nor even a field goal were ever the goal. (see above)

3. Play both the playful fool and the victim. As his own decade of trolling winds down, Dave tempts Dan to ban him with his quoting of an already banned former forum member. Laugh all the way to getting FD more clicks and receiving more free prototypes. Click-bait even the most master baiters. Maybe Dave imagines that DISNEY wiill pick him up as a cross-marketing ploy. DISNEY! DISNEY! DISNEY!

4. Give four points to add to a scarcely related recipe of numerical datum. Extra points given for employing alliteration and metaphorical rhythm.

/like

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

And I will continue to say, all I care about are results. And until all these folks who follow these "experts" beat me in races, well talk is cheap, ....

Sounds like most are afraid to try new stuff, and I did the same thing for years about cranks. Maybe after a year nothing will improve, but I sure will learn
a lot about what seems to work or not work for me. Either way, I am having FUN!!!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wow, you should run for president

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Some may want to spend a bunch of time on things that I do not. I have way too many things on my table in life to worry about some things I do not understand, and really could case less. When you have a coach, you trust them, you do not challenge them. I trust Frank, enough said for me.


If you don't want to know it, air enough. But asking questions is a whole lot different than challenging someone. Just out of curiousity, since when are you working with a coach? In the past you stated multiple times that you didn need a coach.

I look back at races on my splits. I look at my long run times. Not sure why I need anything else. If you consider road data, with all the things uncontrolled "data", then yep, I have nothing other than times for races I have done for many years.

Because your splits don't necessarily reflect how much work you're doing. Some data is better than no data at all. And don give the 'I race all out'- excuse, because if you would bike all out, you wouldn't be able to run. Hence the need for pacing, where data can come in usefull.

Derekl wrote: "I don't think you understand where the burden of proof lies here, Frank. YOU have stated that lower HR (along with 18 other variables) is your goal, so YOU have the burden to prove that this will lead to faster race times. Where is YOUR supporting evidence for that?

If it were anybody other than Dave, I'd feel bad for them for listening to you without questioning a thing. What exactly are your qualifications for any of this?”

No, you don’t understand. THERE IS NO BURDEN OF PROOF ON MY PART! This is a triathlon forum. Dave and I are simply relating what we are doing and the results we have found. If everyone in the world required proof of something before trying something new then nothing would ever change. I have put forth my rational as to why I would expect that improved efficiency (lower HR for the same power) might improve racing performance (more power for the same HR/effort) but it is all theoretical. You proposed that HR doesn’t make a whit of difference and I just asked you if you had any support for that idea. Of course you don’t because there isn’t any. One of the benefits of going to school and study is one can apply what they learn to solving real world problems. My main area of concern is pedaling efficiency. I know of one way to improve efficiency. I believe this is another and the results so far seem to support that view. That is what I am attempting to do here. Those who think efficiency unimportant should just ignore what we are doing.

My qualifications. I have both a pretty good academic background that allows me to understand both human physiology (MD) and engineering principles (Naval Academy - nuclear engineer) have spent many years thinking about and studying how muscles produce power pedaling and how to improve that efficiency. Many believe the results I have seen to be impossible. My ideas go against the ingrained beliefs of many “gurus." So be it. I know what I know and I know what I have seen and experienced. No one else has my combination of academic background and experience. Those who want to dismiss my ideas should give well reasoned arguments rather than ad hominem attacks. I am capable of change. My thoughts in this area are substantially different than they were just a few years ago as I have gained more experience. Hopefully, some researchers someday will take these ideas and put them to the test to either prove or disprove these musings (are you listening Bio McGeek?). I am sure my beliefs will be different 5 years from now. One thing I was taught in medical school - Half the stuff they were teaching was wrong, they just didn’t know which half. That applies to pretty much everything in life.

So, again, this is simply a triathlon forum. Dave started by simply reporting what we are doing. The title was an unfortunate one but did reflect part of the end goal. Since my appearance I have been trying to educate the rational as to why. You are free to ignore or, perhaps, this might stimulate some self reflection regarding your own racing. Your choice. If you demand proof before you will consider this then I will fail as it is not possible. Hardly anything you do in cycling has been proved yet you still do it. What I am doing is based purely on theoretical concerns and, so far, the results seem positive, at least to Dave and me.

I might add that this has taken a lot longer than it should have. This is because we have had to take baby steps. First, I had to gather the data to disabuse Dave of the believe that he needed longer cranks to ride in the mountains. Only then could we really start the real work of getting him into a powerful aero position but Dave was afraid of doing much aero work because in the past it had always thrown his back out and nothing interferes more with training than an injury so we have taken baby steps. Dave has trusted me in this quest and I didn’t want to screw things up by pushing it too fast and messing up his back. We had a lot of time so there is no rush as his next race isn’t until January. I think Dave is just now coming to realize that he can ride aero and not mess his back up with shorter cranks.

The best teacher is experience and Dave is learning a lot even if he doesn’t understand the nuances of the rational of what I am doing. Most of you won’t either as most of you don’t have my academic or experience background. Some of you will ignore this because… well because it is coming from Dave and I. Others will be intrigued by the results and be willing to try some self experimenting to see what happens. Good for you if you do. Report back to the group on your experience.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Jgill wrote: "Trainer road had a podcast that you may want to consider before continuing this discussion.
Is Higher Cadence Better, How Crank Length Affects Power, + More — Ask a Cycling Coach
Are your crank lengths impacting your performance? We have answers in a recent live recording of the Ask a Cycling Coach podcast!”

Well, I got to admit, they did have answers. Unfortunately, they are based on folklore and rationalizations to explain current behavior and nothing else so, in my opinion, all those answers are wrong I quit listening at 11 minutes (10 minutes of introduction) as they were trying to rationalize why higher hr at the same power was good. Why not recommend he increase cadence another 10 rpm and increase HR even further? Where to stop increasing HR? Their explanation is the same one that explains why longer cranks are good for climbing and look what that got Dave. This thinking has no physiological nor engineering basis. They are locked into thinking force on the pedals is the only work the muscles are doing. The muscles, before they can put an ounce of force on the pedal have to accelerate the foot up to the speed of the pedal, which also takes muscle work. The faster the pedal is moving the more energy this requires and this varies with the square of the pedal speed. One needs to look at the big picture and not just focus on pedal forces.

Frank Day (

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I could not think of a better term to call Frank other than a coach. Now, you have a better term you want me to use?

Again, lots of ways to get to an end goal, which is the fastest overall time. I listen to the folks who beat me in races since their results prove they have things I want to understand more of.

I joined the 100/100 that dev has been doing last year. I always thought one had to take a full day off from running, from things I had read. But decided to try something different with my running, based on ST posts. Been running just about 7 days a week for just about a year now, and had the best running of my career this year at 60. Will see if I can improve on the bike for next season. Swimming, well, I kinda have given up which is why I like duathlons now. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I follow (and learn from) the many experts on this forum.....it's the main reason I come here.

Do you realize that Dan Empfield, findinfreestyle, Tom A, Bjorn, Jim Martin, Monty, Jasoninhalifax, are just some of the really smart folks on this forum that have all contributed suggestions in this thread?

Frank Day is not one I would consider credible. I would place him in more of the "crackpot" category...

Take that for what it's worth....from someone who regularly finishes ahead of you in the rankings and races.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

You could have just said Dunning-Kruger and saved yourself a lot of trouble typing all that out.

Yep, you kick my butt. Congrads on being such a stud. I am just a BOP racer by your standards.

I also consider if a person attacks other since they think they are smarter than another person.

"smart" is an interesting term. I retired at 52, does that make me smart? :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks, learn something new everyday

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

No, I was just curious as to why you are working with a coach, when youe stated multiple times you don want to work with a coach. Just as curious to why you're so hell bent on not collecting data outside.

Dude, do you not at all read what you are pasting from Frank? It was like eight posts prior to this one.

Or, is Frank just using your log in and writing this stuff?

Seriously, it is like you don't read what you are writing.

So wait, you didn't listen to it but are sure they are wrong?

Genius.

Why listen to years of coaching experience? Years of training. Thousands and thousands of users' data they can analyze over thousands and thousands of rides at Trainer Road. Ignore it all because it is similar to what years of prior coaches, world champions, olympic winners, coaches etc have all found BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT WHAT YOU WANT TO FIND? Your right, those guys that run an entire giant analytic platform have no idea why they would recommend cadences.

Surely next year we will see everyone winning le Tour at 60 rpm.

Genius.

Fair question. When I wrote that, I figured someone would come after me. I guess, as I have also said, I would not PAY someone to coach me. Never said if someone wanted to coach me for free that I would not consider it. :)

I never ever said I am hell bent to not collect data outside! I collect my running time data outside all the time. I have even started to wear a great Polar Heart Rate strap on my outdoor runs now and you can see the results on strava.
I also started to wear the HR strap on my indoor bike training, and my treadmill running.

If I found a powermeter for my bike at the "right" price, I would use it! I know powercranks has a version, since Frank brought it over to my house last year and we did some testing of me on the velotron using it. I posted those results on ST. Now if I could borrow
one of those, I would use it on my outside bike riding. :)

So I have no idea where you got the idea that I am hell bent to not collect data outside. I do plenty, just not 100% of everything that can be done, and some think should be done.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

See, you cannot answer the simple question.

Yes, I read what Frank writes. And someone came after him with the word elite. And he came back and said no way did he say I was an elite biker, but runner, for me age, well.

So, what in your definition makes a triathlete an "elite" age grouper?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I misread a post earlier here, you were referring to racesituations, not outdoor riding/running perse, my bad.

Why or why is it wrong for folks to have some different ideas, and then do some testing to see if there is maybe a different way to look at stuff? Are most folks so set in their ways that they have lost the desire to do what if thinking?

As Frank posted, I have just tried to post what I am doing, for folks that are interested. I sure did not post asking telling me how we are full of .... It is all out there and at the end, we shall see what happens. Even if the results do not improve,
I will have learned a lot, and been having a lot of fun having some focus on the bike during the off season feeling I did something trying to see if I can improve things. If not, still was worth the time, for me.

Now, tested again today on 150 and 145 cranks. One PC, one locked. Same basic results. Was interesting, if I keep the RPM at 75, was pushing around 220 watts. But if I changed gears, the rpm went to 81 and dropped 20 watts for the same RPE. Interesting.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Sweet Jesus, I don't know how you don't fall off your bike every morning while stationary.


Post 820. So glad I could read for you.