The chess player?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You could move your cleats to mid-foot, that would take care of the low seat issue. Because otherwise you're not changing enough things at once.

For clarity: When you say "doing my TT course in Aero" you mean "riding my velotron on a simulated course while in the aero position", right? Just making sure we are all on the same page here. What is it exactly that determines your progress along that course? A simulated power-speed-distance relationship? Rear wheel speed?

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Less is more.

And you have literally proved my point. No, not the chess player, not even remotely close.

I sat at dinner one night (in the middle east) with a group of Muslim psychiatrists (in the last 3 years) having a discussion about whether "homosexuality" should still be in the DSM...........

It's a bit like that here.........you just can't explain it to some people

Yes, I am riding a flat course, which I assume saying it is a TT course is correct? It is 5 miles long. We are just collecting data by doing a few things. One is doing this on different crank lengths, in back and forth order. One I have at 150. I am now going shorter on the other. Was at 175. 170 this morning. Will go to 165 tomorrow.

Am also lowering the bars to see if I can stay in the aero for the entire time for fit and comfort. Was at 40mm drop this morning, will go to 50mm tomorrow.

I am also trying to focus on pedal speed around 70-75 rpm.

We are measuring HR, but the one of most interest to me is average power. So far, the 150's have much more for this 5 mile TT than 175 or 170.

So not sure about your last questions. This would be no different than if you found a 5 mile section of road, and road it with measuring variables, I believe.

The only thing I focus on is RPM, nothing else. If it drops below 70, I would have larger power but I do not have the strength to do that low and hard for long.

Any ideas for improvements?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Maybe.

How many knobs are you tweaking at once? I'm not big on HR as a focal point for ME, but that's a metric of interest for YOU, so I'd do the following:

Fixed parameters
Course: 5 mile TT
Cadence: 70
Power: FTP (some effort, but nothing that should floor you for a 12 min effort)

Adjustable parameter:
Crank length: 150, 160, 170, etc

Output:
HR

Settle on ideal crank length based on your HR. Then move crank to a fixed parameter and redo the test with varying cadence to optimize that.

I think that if you "do not have the strength to do that low and hard for long" then you are over-geared for your crank length and you have already figured out the shortest practical crank length and gear combination for that particular course.

To clarify my question about distance: You are riding a stationary trainer. What part of your trainer system converts your effort into accumulated distance? Rear wheel revolutions?

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Less is more.

I've followed this thread for entertainment value, but agree with your suggestions. It isn't testing if you aren't holding everything constant and focusing on the output you seek to optimize. I think Dave has identified significant improvements to his fit from raw trial and error, not via a repeatable protocol that I have yet to see clearly articulated in any post. Instead of looking at ridiculous outliers (like 130mm cranks), I think it is time to settle on the best crank length within the 150-175 mm range, find that, then identify the best cadence for him as you suggested. Maybe he can get this done by spring so we can all move onto something else. :)

Trying to turn as few at once as possible. IMO, there is not specific thing we are tracking, just trying to track as many things as possible to see if there are trend. I was pretty surprised to see that over 80 ish, my HR really went up. Good or bad, just data.

Only thing fixed is 5 miles flat. I can change gearing to any RPM I want. Power is not fixed, I just am pushing with a steady effort. Not a TT effort. I have to run 9 miles after this like I did this morning. Or get on my treadmill for 30 minutes running 7:30 pace after a 6:30 10 minute warmup.

I have over the last few months tried setups at different crank lengths. Again, collecting data.

There really IMO is no output. Just collecting as many things as I can. Waking HR. In testing, HR, RPM, watts, mph. I also record my 9 mile run time after these efforts since it has been great with the time to tell me if I am recovered from being sick or a race.

We started out for a month testing over a various set of crank lengths and RPM with fixed 200 watts. My next testing will increase the watts to 220 and see what happens. Right now I am trying to see when the power goes up via crank length, or goes away getting too short like at 135mm.
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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I assume the rear wheel revolutions does distance.

If I am racing, and get to a hill, I always gear down to keep the RPM's up. When I hit grades like over 12%, I am out of the seat on in my 34/32 gear.

So not sure about your comment on shortest practical crank length. I have ridden my martis hill course on 200's, 175, and 150's. The 150's kept me in my seat the longest since I get for free extra gears. But yes, seems if I get too short, which is what I am playing with now, I would have to adjust more gearing even more, which is currently not something I want to do, but, if the data shows I would have more power, ...

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The only goal I have with this testing, is to try to find a set of things that allow me to put out the most power. This implies the fastest time, which is what I use the martis course to test on. What am I missing?

I would have thought 150 cranks were ridiculous until I have used, tested, and seen the numbers.

Just do not understand why so many do not enjoy at times just trying new stuff. It is the off season. Perfect time to play with stuff to keep me engaged on the bike. But guess this is just me

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Going on the assumption that you did not change your chainrings or your cassette when you shortened the cranks, this is completely wrong.

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Less is more.

If fastest time on the Martis course is your selection criteria then I would ask if you have beat that time since mid-Nov? If that was a true 10 min drop in my performance, I would have locked it and called it a day. As you play around with fit, crank length, etc., will you settle on anything other than the fit/crank length that gave you that absolute fastest time? And if you end up with a bracket of very fast times that are reasonably close to each other using different fits, different crank length and having been achieved over several months, how will you FINALLY select the right fit and crank length while eliminating the effects of varying bike fitness over those months?

Haven't you been paying attention? Much of what he says is completely wrong...

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Ryan

If you have enough time to have done as many testing runs with wonky inconsistent variability, you have time to do it with some controls. I'd SUGGEST implementing some control or structure so you can better evaluate the data you're collecting. If you're tweaking power, cadence, etc as you plod along with a certain crank length, you'll have learned little. Did you go faster? Great, was it because you pedaled harder? Pedaled faster? Without control, you're just pedaling and guessing. If you're cool with that, cool.


Negative. I can put out a lot more power seated upright on my road bike than I can in the TT drops. Guess which one goes faster?

I read a bit and tune out read a bit and tune out for the same entertainment value. I have zero vested in this, but it is all meaningless if there aren't any controls to the "testing". If it's just riding a bike willy nilly with different crank arms then it's just riding a bike with different crank arms. Cool I guess ... insert a shrug .gif here

I want to see how Dave tries to justify just this one statement. And, on the off chance that I (or someone else) manages to correct his viewpoint on this one matter, I'll consider it my good deed for the week ;) .

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Less is more.

ctflower just laid out a solid testing procedure for you, and you're totally ignoring it. Seriously just do what he said 2-3 times with each crank length and then post the numbers.
You state that you're trying to turn as few dials as possible, when actually you're turning every flipping dial on the board, and worse yet, you're doing it totally blind

Why? I know when I was on the 150's and changed the front to a 53/39, I had to get out of the seat for like a 11% grade. But with a 50/34 front, I could hang in for like
a 13% grade without standing up.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Fair enough. I wouldn't hold your breath though. Something tells me he will ignore your comment, or throw some random gibberish back to confuse the matter further.

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Ryan

I have not ridden martis again since mid Nov. Gave me enough data to prove, for me, I am NOT going back to 200's. It also proved to me that one does not need leverage for the hills, I was basically the same with either cranks.

So we are now working on testing for fit to see how long I can get the bars.

All fair questions. Just like if one hires a coach, you do not challenge them, I am working with Frank and not challenging him.

We shall see what I race with. Even if it has been wasted in some folks eyes, sure has given me something to focus on for the off season, that IMO, is, for me, great data to
deal with things I had believed in, and now question.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Damn, you're good.



I don't have a clue how to relate this back to the "free gears" comment.

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Less is more.

This is in response to several of the more recent posts regarding our current efforts

Dave is doing all of this testing on a Velotron. To those of you not familiar with this machine it is like a Computrainer on Steroids. It is a research grade ergometer and is entirely controlled by the computer. It requires no calibration. Power is correct within 0.5% as I remember. Anyhow, the computer can simulate any course and any gearing and the frame is highly adjustable. Our first efforts were to determine his most efficient pedal speed at 200 watts as that was near his racing wattage. I concluded that was around 110 cm/sec. Dave has posted all of the testing that allowed me to reach that conclusion. That works out to be about 70 rpm on 150 mm cranks. Dave has tested very well on that combination on a very hilly course he has tested himself on regularly for many years. We have now moved on to see if we can improve his aero position and performance. Upright Dave has always tested essentially equally between 150 and 170 mm cranks. Our initial testing in the aero position shows an approximate 20 watt difference between these two crank lengths. 170 in one effort showed a 4-5 watt improvement over 175 but still substantially worse than 150. In addition, Dave has always had back issues riding in the aero position with longer cranks. He has not had any issues since we have gone to shorter cranks annd even increased the handlebar drop (it used to be even).

One of the issues of doing this testing on the Velotron is it cannot test aerodynamic drag. Fortunately so far Dave is showing higher power on the crank length at should allow him the best aerodynamics because the seat is the highest so we should be able to get his back flatter. But, that will be an eyeball test even though some of you hate that. Right now we are focusing on power.

Some of you think we should just choose a best crank length between 150 and 170. The problem with that is we haven’t shown 150 to be his best length. You can’t know it is best until you test at a crank length that demonstrates a worsening of performance. That is why we need to go shorter than 150 as currently 150 is his best performing length. I am 6’2” and 135 is my best length. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him optimize at something a little shorter than 150 but we will let the data dictate that.

One more thing, we will probably go back and do some more efficiency testing at 220 watts to see if his optimum pedal speed has changed significantly with this higher power. I would expect it to change some, just don’t know how much. I am testing another rider who is testing at 270 watts and his best speed seems to be around 140 cm/sec. We will see.

I know there might be other ways to approach this problem but this is the way I have chosen. I will take your suggestions into consideration for the future. I am quite excited about the results thus far and look forward to seeing what happens when Dave returns to racing.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'm getting professionally fit this coming Saturday using a combination of Retul and a Guru fit machine. I haven't been fit in several years and would like to get it checked and also to update my coordinates in case I buy a new bike this coming year. I'll ask about crank length, but 170-172.5 have worked fine for me and I've never even thought about "leverage" while climbing.

I also for years thought 200's worked for me, and my bike times, compared to my AG, are pretty good.

But, I wanted to think outside the box, and so far, am sure having fun trying new stuff.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep