Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [ctflower] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 14:19

Post #851 of 1333 (6012 views)

ctflower wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

ctflower wrote:

Once you get things close to dialed, are you going to give it a whirl outside? Folsom South Canal? If so, I'll ride over and yell encouraging words at you.

I really only like to ride outside for a race. How about joining me for the first of the season, wolfs 3 bears duathlon. Nice killer hills of the bike which should give me a good early first test on how this bike fitting is going.

Thanks for the offer. Want to come up to my place and you can try some different bike fits with setups and see how your power goes. You could even try the terrible powercranks if you wanted.

We could even, I think, ride the Martis bike course together and see how we do.

http://wolfpackevents.com/calendar/166

My current race schedule possiblities is here.http://www.h2ofun.net/indextriathlon2018.htm

Duathlon means running and running sounds terrible :) Only time I'll hit the 3 bears is for the Berkeley Hills RR and the only time I get up your way is for team rides out of Nevada City. Will keep an eye out for a future opportunity to ride.

Yea I avoided Duathlons my entire life until 2 years ago. They just hurt TOO much!! But since, at the moment I can run, well stupid not to use the abilities I have at the moment.

Do you Aquabike? Going to try and do a lot more of these during the year.

Yep, nevada city just up the rode.

I had a few friends drive up from the bay area a few weeks back to do some testing on my Velotrons. Hard to find a setup you can try things like different crank lengths, powercranks, total ability to adjust the bike, and all for free. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 14:38

Post #852 of 1333 (5985 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Thanks for the questions. Please keep asking since I am asking also. So, what do you think the results will be when I try 140 and 135 crank length?

Undoubtedly, you'll continue reporting to this thread.

Less is more.

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 14:53

Post #853 of 1333 (5966 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Personally, for my short course racing, for this old guy, aero is not something I worry about at all. I just need to get off the bike and be able to run.

And therein lies the whole problem with this train-wreck of a thread. We have nearly 1000 posts on an attempt to drop HR by a couple of beats to make H2O "more efficient" (pulse power etc) whilst choosing to not worry about the things that will definitely save time. Aero. Solid bike training. Bike handling. Getting some data on FTP and using it. Etc. You know that phrase of "icing on the cake"? At this stage the cake just consists of ingredients on the bench, yet we have 1000 posts discussing the colour of the sprinkles on top of the frikkin icing.

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [rmt] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 14:55

Post #854 of 1333 (5960 views)

rmt wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Personally, for my short course racing, for this old guy, aero is not something I worry about at all. I just need to get off the bike and be able to run.

And therein lies the whole problem with this train-wreck of a thread. We have nearly 1000 posts on an attempt to drop HR by a couple of beats to make H2O "more efficient" (pulse power etc) whilst choosing to not worry about the things that will definitely save time. Aero. Solid bike training. Bike handling. Getting some data on FTP and using it. Etc. You know that phrase of "icing on the cake"? At this stage the cake just consists of ingredients on the bench, yet we have 1000 posts discussing the colour of the sprinkles on top of the frikkin icing.

Where do you get we are worried about HR? Talk about fake news.

Thanks for your opinions.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [rmt] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 15:05

Post #855 of 1333 (5942 views)

Well when the baker sells powercranks and the cake will do anything to believe he is right this is what you get.

You can’t want to get faster on the bike but then in the same breath say you don’t care about aerodynamics those two thoughts don’t go together. Because the biggest gains for 99.999 percent of the people out there who haven’t had a fit are going to come from aerodynamics not from the flipping crank length.

But he’s trying to do crank length testing without having a clue how to adjust his position to compensate or if the new position is better from a fit perspective, or if he has even got used to the new position to determine if his body has gotten used to the changes.

But it sure fun follow along with the train wreck.

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 15:13

Post #856 of 1333 (5928 views)

Grant.Reuter wrote:

Well when the baker sells powercranks and the cake will do anything to believe he is right this is what you get.

You can’t want to get faster on the bike but then in the same breath say you don’t care about aerodynamics those two thoughts don’t go together. Because the biggest gains for 99.999 percent of the people out there who haven’t had a fit are going to come from aerodynamics not from the flipping crank length.

But he’s trying to do crank length testing without having a clue how to adjust his position to compensate or if the new position is better from a fit perspective, or if he has even got used to the new position to determine if his body has gotten used to the changes.

But it sure fun follow along with the train wreck.

Thanks sure glad you are right on

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 15:15

Post #857 of 1333 (5922 views)

h2ofun wrote:

rmt wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Personally, for my short course racing, for this old guy, aero is not something I worry about at all. I just need to get off the bike and be able to run.

And therein lies the whole problem with this train-wreck of a thread. We have nearly 1000 posts on an attempt to drop HR by a couple of beats to make H2O "more efficient" (pulse power etc) whilst choosing to not worry about the things that will definitely save time. Aero. Solid bike training. Bike handling. Getting some data on FTP and using it. Etc. You know that phrase of "icing on the cake"? At this stage the cake just consists of ingredients on the bench, yet we have 1000 posts discussing the colour of the sprinkles on top of the frikkin icing.

Where do you get we are worried about HR? Talk about fake news.

Thanks for your opinions.

What in the world do you think "pulse power" is? It's Frank's made up term that is DIRECTLY RELATED TO HEART RATE.

You can't be this ignorant.

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Derekl] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 15:22

Post #858 of 1333 (5910 views)

Derekl wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

rmt wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Personally, for my short course racing, for this old guy, aero is not something I worry about at all. I just need to get off the bike and be able to run.

And therein lies the whole problem with this train-wreck of a thread. We have nearly 1000 posts on an attempt to drop HR by a couple of beats to make H2O "more efficient" (pulse power etc) whilst choosing to not worry about the things that will definitely save time. Aero. Solid bike training. Bike handling. Getting some data on FTP and using it. Etc. You know that phrase of "icing on the cake"? At this stage the cake just consists of ingredients on the bench, yet we have 1000 posts discussing the colour of the sprinkles on top of the frikkin icing.

Where do you get we are worried about HR? Talk about fake news.

Thanks for your opinions.

What in the world do you think "pulse power" is? It's Frank's made up term that is DIRECTLY RELATED TO HEART RATE.

You can't be this ignorant.

I thought I have seen others asking about pulse power? I have zero idea what it is and could care less about the details. Will let me coach lead.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Donkey Kong] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 15:33

Post #859 of 1333 (5892 views)

Donkey Kong wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Honest question, do my TT tests the last week showing 10% more power on 145's and 150's compared to 170 and 175 mean nothing?

This thread has me so confused I’m at the point where I think yes, that 10% more in power means nothing. At least no speed improvement. My complete unsophisticated analysis of the data would say that you appear to be riding the same gearing and the same cadence which will result in the same speed (not a math expert but I think this is fact - someone correct me if I am wrong). Whatsmore you’re doing it at essentially the same heart rate and RPE (I think you’be said that about RPE but maybe I am misquoting). The only thing that is different is that it is taking you more watts to produce that cadence/heart rate/speed with a shorter crank. So shorter cranks are less efficient in terms of the watts required to maintain speed (you are generating more of them, but you are turning the same gearing at the same cadence).

Additionally this analysis excludes the “un-aero” impact of shorter cranks (higher less aero position). As a result in the real world the shorter cranks will result in a lower speed even though the indoor speed is the same and is requiring/is generating more watts.

So...I guess I’ve now talked myself into thinking the additional 10 watts actually does mean nothing??? I’m so very confused. The answer is probably in one of the 100’s of posts before this one so apologies if it went over my head.

You are right in some ways and I am not going to get involved in this thread content but help you understand a few things. I think I gave input on page one or two but laugh that this continues to grow to what 35 pages now.

I have tested shorter cranks and found I can generate more power based on shorter cranks based on I have less dead spots in my pedal stroke. Much when you pedal up a hill it is easier to generate more power as gravity is forcing you to engage more through your pedal action so although the amount of force essentially you are putting on the pedals is the same it is engaged more degrees of the clock. Ideally due to generating more power you should be going a faster cadence or a bigger gear. If the same cadence and gearing the less distance travelled by your foot should correlate to a lower HR and less oxygen uptake essentially force on the pedals the same but more degrees of the circle more efficient.

As for shorter cranks technically you should be able to get more aero as with less hip closure you should be able to have the front lower.

Hope this helps... There are a lot more variables at play here

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 16:16

Post #860 of 1333 (5855 views)

Shambolic wrote:

Donkey Kong wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Honest question, do my TT tests the last week showing 10% more power on 145's and 150's compared to 170 and 175 mean nothing?

This thread has me so confused I’m at the point where I think yes, that 10% more in power means nothing. At least no speed improvement. My complete unsophisticated analysis of the data would say that you appear to be riding the same gearing and the same cadence which will result in the same speed (not a math expert but I think this is fact - someone correct me if I am wrong). Whatsmore you’re doing it at essentially the same heart rate and RPE (I think you’be said that about RPE but maybe I am misquoting). The only thing that is different is that it is taking you more watts to produce that cadence/heart rate/speed with a shorter crank. So shorter cranks are less efficient in terms of the watts required to maintain speed (you are generating more of them, but you are turning the same gearing at the same cadence).

Additionally this analysis excludes the “un-aero” impact of shorter cranks (higher less aero position). As a result in the real world the shorter cranks will result in a lower speed even though the indoor speed is the same and is requiring/is generating more watts.

So...I guess I’ve now talked myself into thinking the additional 10 watts actually does mean nothing??? I’m so very confused. The answer is probably in one of the 100’s of posts before this one so apologies if it went over my head.

You are right in some ways and I am not going to get involved in this thread content but help you understand a few things. I think I gave input on page one or two but laugh that this continues to grow to what 35 pages now.

I have tested shorter cranks and found I can generate more power based on shorter cranks based on I have less dead spots in my pedal stroke. Much when you pedal up a hill it is easier to generate more power as gravity is forcing you to engage more through your pedal action so although the amount of force essentially you are putting on the pedals is the same it is engaged more degrees of the clock. Ideally due to generating more power you should be going a faster cadence or a bigger gear. If the same cadence and gearing the less distance travelled by your foot should correlate to a lower HR and less oxygen uptake essentially force on the pedals the same but more degrees of the circle more efficient.

As for shorter cranks technically you should be able to get more aero as with less hip closure you should be able to have the front lower.

Hope this helps... There are a lot more variables at play here

Thanks. Frank has asked me to up the RPM goals now with the shorter cranks, so going to try to target 76 for the 150's and 79 for the 145's. Will use the gearing to see what happens for those RPM's.

I agree I sure feel less effort, whatever than means, trying to get over the top. I also seem to be more comfortable in aero, which the PC's really force the test.

Thanks

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 17:59

Post #861 of 1333 (5782 views)

Not sure what you're talking about, who Frank is or your testing protocol. I was responding to Donkey Kong?

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 18:16

Post #862 of 1333 (5764 views)

Grant.Reuter wrote:

You’re 100 percent wrong (not shocking at all). Dan or any of the mods can disable a user ID so you can’t log in. People that were banned used to have black text for their name. For some reason that changed at some point however they certainly can block a user ID. Hence why I’m logged in under my name instead of my old cyclonehockey21 profile. If I try to log into that it says UserID disabled... but sure keep thinking you’re correct even if you’re not.

Grant, save your breath. Asked and answered and answer ignored apparently:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6500115#p6500115

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 18:31

Post #863 of 1333 (5737 views)

Why alway riding at such low power numbers?

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 18:48

Post #864 of 1333 (5713 views)

iamuwere wrote:

Why alway riding at such low power numbers?[/quote

Because i am an old terrible athlete

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 18:51

Post #865 of 1333 (5705 views)

Frank says you are elite.

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 19:57

Post #866 of 1333 (5664 views)

"Why alway riding at such low power numbers? "

Because for H20, bike training to get faster is not worth the pain.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...g=unwilling#p6387772

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 20:29

Post #867 of 1333 (5648 views)

BigEndian wrote: “...So on the 26th Dave did 1.72 watts per beat on 175's and he did 1.73 watts per beat on 150's, two weeks before. Three days after he only managed 1.64 watts per beat on 150's. My conclusion there, based on the available data is: Too much variance to draw any statistically relevant conclusion, OR that 175's are likely just as good as the 150's, given the inevitable day to day variability.”

We had already concluded that Dave performs equally well on 150 or 170-75 cranks as long as he is upright. The Martis test is mostly upright. Where we are seeing a power difference in crank length is in the aero position and he is pretty much consistently 20 watts more powerful using 150 cranks than 170-75 cranks. The purpose of the upright testing was only to determine his optimum pedal speed so we could determine his optimum cadence for the various crank lengths we would be testing.

Frank Day

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 20:30

Post #868 of 1333 (5647 views)

Bigendian wrote: "If I was doing this test I would do a week of daily A/B/A/B tests. On one day, do the long cranks first, on the next day do the short cranks first. Do not change the bar heights. Do not change your seat adjustment other than the 25mm difference. Only go between the two crank lengths you're investigation. Only do tests with locked cranks. Do all rides exclusively and completely in aero. Do a proper zero calibration on the Velotron every day.”

Thanks for the idea but we are already 6 weeks into this and everything is proceeding according to plan. Our results thus far have exceeded our expectations and we still have a ways to go. You, of course, are welcome to do your own testing using your own protocol and report to the group. Look forward to seeing how it goes.

Frank Day

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 20:31

Post #869 of 1333 (5645 views)

Iamuwere wrote: "I know my HR will be way lower at same power at 60 rpm than 100, but that's not meaning I am going to race better.”

It doesn’t? Do you have any supporting evidence for that statement?
Frank Day

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 20:32

Post #870 of 1333 (5644 views)

iamuwere wrote:

Frank says you are elite.

Elite what?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 21:15

Post #871 of 1333 (5626 views)

h2ofun wrote:

The Martis test is mostly upright.
Frank Day

My problem is I keep assuming you guys are trying to minimize variables...

You ought to get Dave to at least record his riding position in each of the records he makes. It would help all of us trying to read along here, and when you or he goes back to look at the data later, you won't have to guess as to how a particular test was done.

Half the problem with this thread is that the details of the test protocols you both are trying to do, are not being communicated clearly. Given Dave's professed ignorance of what it is you are trying to test for, it seems like you (Frank) ought to sit down with him and explain clearly what it is you're trying to figure out with each test and with each new variable. This should actually help you get better data and it will keep Dave from saying "I have no idea what the numbers mean" while he's demanding that we replicate his experiments.

Less is more.

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]

Dec 7, 17 23:34

Post #872 of 1333 (5588 views)

Frank will never let facts and details get in the way of a good sales pitch.

Like the time he claimed a rider went 20min faster in a race in California using gimmickcranks.

A year apart race in the opposite direction and about 10km shorter.

In the other forums Frank is banned from they ban people for being sock puppets. Just saying!

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 17 1:24

Post #873 of 1333 (5568 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Frank is my coach in this. I assume if a person has a coach you do not tell them what to do? Again, I am not! using the HR to do anything in my training. Never used on the bike and never for the run. I collect since Frank wanted, and I still think interesting data since it got me to focus on lower RPM let alone Frank says the data supports doing this. Again, I am not questions his process or methods.

But what is nice, I hope, is when I do start racing, I will have some data behind why I am trying what I am . Then if things to not work, we can hopefully look at the data, and more testing to see what we missed.

I cut some stuff out of the quote, otherwise there are going to be massive laps of irrelevant text. Two questions:

1. I have a lot of communication with my coach, to understand the rationale behind the training (and testing) I do. Don't you?

2. You stated earlier in the thread that you don't race with either power or HR - at least for the bike portion. As much as I understand one does not like HRM around the chest during a race (I hate it ;-) ), what data are you going to look back on when it doesn't work in a race? I understand your riding inside, since Americans in general don't seem to know how to share the road, so races are the only time you are able to collect 'real world' data.

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 17 2:07

Post #874 of 1333 (5551 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Derekl wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Where do you get we are worried about HR? Talk about fake news.

Thanks for your opinions.

What in the world do you think "pulse power" is? It's Frank's made up term that is DIRECTLY RELATED TO HEART RATE.

You can't be this ignorant.

I thought I have seen others asking about pulse power? I have zero idea what it is and could care less about the details. Will let me coach lead.

*facepalm*

Re: My testing to try and find best crank length with my Velotron [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 8, 17 3:41

Post #875 of 1333 (5511 views)

Derekl wrote:

You can't be this ignorant.

h2ofun wrote:

I thought I have seen others asking about pulse power? I have zero idea what it is and could care less about the details. Will let me coach lead.

Derekl wrote:

You can't be this ignorant.

I think you have your answer

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