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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
trail wrote:
carlosflanders wrote:
Not going to win any tractor pulls, but a hard course with plenty of elevation and technical descents is made for him. .


Ironically, I think the one time Pidcock beat a healthy MdVP was a...tractor pull contest at the Telenet Superprestige Gavere. :)

Same irony that the one time Pidcock beat WvA to win a classic was a 2-up flat sprint (De Brabantse Pijl).


Pedantry alert, the Brabantse Pijl sprint is on a false flat ( finishing km avg ~3%)

But Piddles sure has good tactical nous (see his sprint at 2021 KBK)

Perhaps to make it a bit less of a suprise, TommyP is rumoured to have a 1500W sprint (can't find the proof atm, heard it in a podcast). At his weight and small frame, it shouldn't be a surprise that he can beat the likes of a WvA who punches a big hole in the air at not that much more peak power.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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We need some official numbers on Pidcock. I have a hard time believing someone weighing 128 pounds can generate 1500 watts.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
heyMartin wrote:
oh no - Peto tests positive for second time; think this will affect his spring campaign and his lifestyle
may affect his season


Almost gave me a heart attack! Peto gonna make party. This was inevitable.


Maybe the secret vaccination police didn't attack him after all? Its a shame to know that another of my favorite cyclists is a moron and quack.

In other news, when not racing I spent most of the summer and fall in the Swiss Alps and Andorra (we are mostly here now) was my all time year of elevation gain according to my data. Almost 500,000 meters of elevation gain this year. It seems like being here has helped me more than any other athletic intervention. Every day you have good class to train with.

As an aside, I wish Mike Woods would come here to Slowtwitch. He still runs between bike training and would shame EVERYONE here. You see him running here a bit and he floats at insane speeds. I'm a decent runner and know a good deal about it. I'm fairly certain he would easily drop a 2:15 right now on his bike + run 20 km cruises for fun training.
Last edited by: turdburgler: Jan 5, 22 5:09
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
echappist wrote:
trail wrote:
carlosflanders wrote:
Not going to win any tractor pulls, but a hard course with plenty of elevation and technical descents is made for him. .


Ironically, I think the one time Pidcock beat a healthy MdVP was a...tractor pull contest at the Telenet Superprestige Gavere. :)

Same irony that the one time Pidcock beat WvA to win a classic was a 2-up flat sprint (De Brabantse Pijl).


Pedantry alert, the Brabantse Pijl sprint is on a false flat ( finishing km avg ~3%)

But Piddles sure has good tactical nous (see his sprint at 2021 KBK)


Perhaps to make it a bit less of a suprise, TommyP is rumoured to have a 1500W sprint (can't find the proof atm, heard it in a podcast). At his weight and small frame, it shouldn't be a surprise that he can beat the likes of a WvA who punches a big hole in the air at not that much more peak power.


I have no access to his data, but you see him here occasionally doing efforts. I also have a hard time understanding his rumoured data, but I believe what I see. He clearly is punching something at that or close to that for 10 - 15 seconds. I know he is small, but he blows people off his wheel in a swift manner when he gets the chance. He also seems very intelligent about when to expend that energy, when to take risks, his technical prowess, etc. The other side of things is equally insane. I'm fairly certain he gave an interview about one of his TT titles...something like 6.5 w/kg for 45 minutes. From his own mouth.
Last edited by: turdburgler: Jan 5, 22 5:08
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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turdburgler wrote:
Tri_Joeri wrote:
echappist wrote:
trail wrote:
carlosflanders wrote:
Not going to win any tractor pulls, but a hard course with plenty of elevation and technical descents is made for him. .


Ironically, I think the one time Pidcock beat a healthy MdVP was a...tractor pull contest at the Telenet Superprestige Gavere. :)

Same irony that the one time Pidcock beat WvA to win a classic was a 2-up flat sprint (De Brabantse Pijl).


Pedantry alert, the Brabantse Pijl sprint is on a false flat ( finishing km avg ~3%)

But Piddles sure has good tactical nous (see his sprint at 2021 KBK)


Perhaps to make it a bit less of a suprise, TommyP is rumoured to have a 1500W sprint (can't find the proof atm, heard it in a podcast). At his weight and small frame, it shouldn't be a surprise that he can beat the likes of a WvA who punches a big hole in the air at not that much more peak power.


I have no access to his data, but you see him here occasionally doing efforts. I also have a hard time understanding his rumoured data, but I believe what I see. He clearly is punching something at that or close to that for 10 - 15 seconds. I know he is small, but he blows people off his wheel in a swift manner when he gets the chance. He also seems very intelligent about when to expend that energy, when to take risks, his technical prowess, etc. The other side of things is equally insane. I'm fairly certain he gave an interview about one of his TT titles...something like 6.5 w/kg for 45 minutes. From his own mouth.

The exact numbers aside, it’s abundantly clear how good his neuromuscular capability is. His bunnyhopping at Rucphen was just marvelous, and that came at the tail end of a lap-long chase.

Piddles also seems to have that gruffy, northern England edge to him. Proper terrier mentality.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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I've only ridden with him a bit and he comes across as just a normal bloke. No ego, funny, easy going, supremely excellent on a few wheels.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
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Pidcock is amazing, to be sure, but he's 2 - 40 to MvdP so far. He's 2 - 23 to Wout.

The whippets are still on a different level.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [jstonebarger] [ In reply to ]
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Now 2-24 to Wout. Seems as though mechanicals are his primary adversary right now.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [jstonebarger] [ In reply to ]
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And, CyclingTips just reported that WvA won’t ride worlds, which is a shame. Should we take up a collection to rent him a private jet???

Looks like Pidders is in-line for first senior world championship.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [jstonebarger] [ In reply to ]
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jstonebarger wrote:
Pidcock is amazing, to be sure, but he's 2 - 40 to MvdP so far. He's 2 - 23 to Wout.

The whippets are still on a different level.

Pidcock is a great rider, but I agree he's still clearly a tier below Wout and MvdP (though a tier above the likes of Iserbyt, Aerts, Van de Haar et.). I think a lot of us suffer from consuming a lot of our cycling coverage filtered through a British lens (Eurosport, GCN, etc.) and the Brits can't seem to help themselves when it comes to anointing Piddles as a golden god of cycling.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [ClayDavis] [ In reply to ]
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ClayDavis wrote:
jstonebarger wrote:
Pidcock is amazing, to be sure, but he's 2 - 40 to MvdP so far. He's 2 - 23 to Wout.

The whippets are still on a different level.


Pidcock is a great rider, but I agree he's still clearly a tier below Wout and MvdP (though a tier above the likes of Iserbyt, Aerts, Van de Haar et.). I think a lot of us suffer from consuming a lot of our cycling coverage filtered through a British lens (Eurosport, GCN, etc.) and the Brits can't seem to help themselves when it comes to anointing Piddles as a golden god of cycling.


They are quite chauvinistic, especially as Froome has faded from the scene.
Last edited by: echappist: Jan 5, 22 13:06
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:

They are quite chauvinistic, especially as Froome has faded from the scene.

Claiming a guy who was born and raised in Kenya, trained in South Africa, and has lived in Monaco pretty much his whole career (and has never lived in Britain) as one of their own is another classic move.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [ClayDavis] [ In reply to ]
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ClayDavis wrote:
echappist wrote:

They are quite chauvinistic, especially as Froome has faded from the scene.

Claiming a guy who was born and raised in Kenya, trained in South Africa, and has lived in Monaco pretty much his whole career (and has never lived in Britain) as one of their own is another classic move.

Bit like Americans claiming to have put a man on the moon, when everyone knows it was a bunch of abductesld Nazi Germans who made it all happen.
🤔
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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turdburgler wrote:
Tri_Joeri wrote:
echappist wrote:
trail wrote:
carlosflanders wrote:
Not going to win any tractor pulls, but a hard course with plenty of elevation and technical descents is made for him. .


Ironically, I think the one time Pidcock beat a healthy MdVP was a...tractor pull contest at the Telenet Superprestige Gavere. :)

Same irony that the one time Pidcock beat WvA to win a classic was a 2-up flat sprint (De Brabantse Pijl).


Pedantry alert, the Brabantse Pijl sprint is on a false flat ( finishing km avg ~3%)

But Piddles sure has good tactical nous (see his sprint at 2021 KBK)


Perhaps to make it a bit less of a suprise, TommyP is rumoured to have a 1500W sprint (can't find the proof atm, heard it in a podcast). At his weight and small frame, it shouldn't be a surprise that he can beat the likes of a WvA who punches a big hole in the air at not that much more peak power.


I have no access to his data, but you see him here occasionally doing efforts. I also have a hard time understanding his rumoured data, but I believe what I see. He clearly is punching something at that or close to that for 10 - 15 seconds. I know he is small, but he blows people off his wheel in a swift manner when he gets the chance. He also seems very intelligent about when to expend that energy, when to take risks, his technical prowess, etc. The other side of things is equally insane. I'm fairly certain he gave an interview about one of his TT titles...something like 6.5 w/kg for 45 minutes. From his own mouth.

I heard it was for a duration of 5" so I think we're both not far off :)
I also saw the data of the TT you're mentioning, 371W normalized at 57kg so 6.5W/kg.. After only riding on the TT for a few weeks.

Jens Schuermans, Belgian pro mtb'er who races the Redbull XCC and XCO series raced against him in the one Swiss mtb race in Leukerbad before the Olympics, where he beat Carod by 3 minutes, and talked about it in a podcast. They were doing 6.5W/kg already for 5 minutes up a hill and he just shifted 1 or 2 gears up and burst away from everyone.

Sorry for the fanboying, massive fan of cycling in general but since I dislike Evenemerckx (even though I'm Belgian and I'm supposed to like him) but I'm their size (go little guys!) so Pidcock is my go to to mix it up with the big guns
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
I just have to (sound on) https://www.facebook.com/...NK-UNK-IOS_GK0T-GK1C


I love amateur triathletes attempting full send!


Last edited by: trail: Jan 7, 22 13:16
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure that I'll be rooting for Joe D or Nibbles this year
https://www.cnn.com/...ress-intl/index.html
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [trener1] [ In reply to ]
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trener1 wrote:
I'm not sure that I'll be rooting for Joe D or Nibbles this year
https://www.cnn.com/...ress-intl/index.html


Yeah. I try to understand the context of riding "for" the Crown Prince of Bahrain, who's done some awful things (allegedly). Or Astana in the past. Tough to decide if sport is an agent of change or just "sportswashing."

But I think that a line has been crossed in this one...really hard to rationalize on this one.

The gold standard might be Gino Bartali who did a great job of undermining the attempts for the fascist Italian government to use him as propaganda, while, of course, secretly working for the Italian Resistance.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
trener1 wrote:
I'm not sure that I'll be rooting for Joe D or Nibbles this year
https://www.cnn.com/...ress-intl/index.html



Yeah. I try to understand the context of riding "for" the Crown Prince of Bahrain, who's done some awful things (allegedly). Or Astana in the past. Tough to decide if sport is an agent of change or just "sportswashing."

But I think that a line has been crossed in this one...really hard to rationalize on this one.

The gold standard might be Gino Bartali who did a great job of undermining the attempts for the fascist Italian government to use him as propaganda, while, of course, secretly working for the Italian Resistance.


One shouldn’t expect most professional sportspeople to exhibit a moral code much higher than caring for what benefits them. Most got into this because of the monetary opportunities, and it shouldn’t be all that surprising that self-interest rules the day for most.

Saudis committing atrocities? Eff that, they’ll be lured to play for Newcastle. And fans will show up, too.

Qataris using slave labor to build stadia for World Cup? No matter, they’ll chase the big paychecks from PSG.

Communist China and the atrocities against Uighurs? That, too, can be overlooked, as winter Olympians queue up for the opportunity to partake in the 2022 Olympics.

Sportwashing works, because both the fans and the athletes don’t care in sufficient numbers. Former want to be entertained; latter want to be paid. Everyone lets his/her self-interest dictate decision, and moral principles can f*** right off.

In this regard, Nibali is more at fault. He’s had his time feeding at the till (provided for by various autocrats) but like a greedy farm animal, just can’t say no to it. Dombrowski is slightly less culpable, as he’s less financially secure.

That’s the state of the world, one in which Don Ogre, despite his odious behavior, is orders of magnitude better than some of the other team managements around.

PS. My wife loves Olympic ice soccer (growing up in Canada does that); i, too, like ice soccer. No Olympics for either of us. Some of you know how much i enjoy my lawn hockey; no World Cup spectating for me.
Last edited by: echappist: Jan 8, 22 8:38
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
I just have to (sound on) https://www.facebook.com/...NK-UNK-IOS_GK0T-GK1C

c'mon, we are better than that

Though if you have to, the soundtrack should be set to Benny Hill
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
trail wrote:
trener1 wrote:
I'm not sure that I'll be rooting for Joe D or Nibbles this year
https://www.cnn.com/...ress-intl/index.html



Yeah. I try to understand the context of riding "for" the Crown Prince of Bahrain, who's done some awful things (allegedly). Or Astana in the past. Tough to decide if sport is an agent of change or just "sportswashing."

But I think that a line has been crossed in this one...really hard to rationalize on this one.

The gold standard might be Gino Bartali who did a great job of undermining the attempts for the fascist Italian government to use him as propaganda, while, of course, secretly working for the Italian Resistance.


One shouldn’t expect most professional sportspeople to exhibit a moral code much higher than caring for what benefits them. Most got into this because of the monetary opportunities, and it shouldn’t be all that surprising that self-interest rules the day for most.

Saudis committing atrocities? Eff that, they’ll be lured to play for Newcastle. And fans will show up, too.

Qataris using slave labor to build stadia for World Cup? No matter, they’ll chase the big paychecks from PSG.

Communist China and the atrocities against Uighurs? That, too, can be overlooked, as winter Olympians queue up for the opportunity to partake in the 2022 Olympics.

Sportwashing works, because both the fans and the athletes don’t care in sufficient numbers. Former want to be entertained; latter want to be paid. Everyone lets his/her self-interest dictate decision, and moral principles can f*** right off.

In this regard, Nibali is more at fault. He’s had his time feeding at the till (provided for by various autocrats) but like a greedy farm animal, just can’t say no to it. Dombrowski is slightly less culpable, as he’s less financially secure.

That’s the state of the world, one in which Don Ogre, despite his odious behavior, is orders of magnitude better than some of the other team managements around.

PS. My wife loves Olympic ice soccer (growing up in Canada does that); i, too, like ice soccer. No Olympics for either of us. Some of you know how much i enjoy my lawn hockey; no World Cup spectating for me.

I'll be rooting for Joe. I know him pretty well and have come to know some things relative to his decision to sign there, but ST isn't a place where I'd share them. (All due respect to this august group.)

Bigger pic is that if the source of funds for pro teams in all sports, around the globe were thoroughly vetted so as to achieve a pass/fail for morality, then lots of rich guys and entities and countries wouldn't make the cut. I don't pretend to know the answer, but if Astana or any team can maybe give folks something to look forward to, to pull for, then maybe there's value in that; even if their funding is suspect.

So to flip it, is there a team that could be rooted for based upon the team values and approach and whose sponsors are benevolent, reputable businesses that give back to society? I'll noodle this.
I'm a Green Bay Packer fan based upon the sound management there, many of the fans are stockholders, literally, and their fans are some of the nicest, unjaded people and most knowledgeable fans out there. It is a small market team. If they moved I'm afraid the perfectly nice little town of Green Bay would crumble. It's nice to see them be so consistently good, going up against the LA and NY teams that are often more attractive places for the athletes to live and play. Not a lot of the guys ice fish.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [McNulty] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that there are a fair amount of shady guys in the sponsorship biz, but I think there is a difference say between Ineos that's a huge petrochemical producer and a mass of shot up bodies laying in the streets of Kazkhstan.
That's just my personal opinion, I understand that not all will agree.

I'm a big football fan, so I get where you are coming from with the Pack, but there is no comparable to Cycling, Green Bay can be competitive (number 1 seed in the NFC) because they get the same share of the multi billion dollar broadcasting pie that the NY and LA teams get, and there is (a very low, all things considered) salary cap. so really the Giants or the Rams have no, zero competitive advantage over the packers or steelers or KC, and that shows in the results.
But that's obviously a whole other discussion for another day
Last edited by: trener1: Jan 9, 22 9:38
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Another good day for Cervelo. And women’s WC just got a lot more interesting.
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [trener1] [ In reply to ]
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trener1 wrote:
I agree that there are a fair amount of shady guys in the sponsorship biz, but I think there is a difference say between Ineos that's a huge petrochemical producer and a mass of shot up bodies laying in the streets of Kazkhstan.
That's just my personal opinion, I understand that not all will agree.

I'm a big football fan, so I get where you are coming from with the Pack, but there is no comparable to Cycling, Green Bay can be competitive (number 1 seed in the NFC) because they get the same share of the multi billion dollar broadcasting pie that the NY and LA teams get, and there is (a very low, all things considered) salary cap. so really the Giants or the Rams have no, zero competitive advantage over the packers or steelers or KC, and that shows in the results.
But that's obviously a whole other discussion for another day


America: where socialism (in the form of wealth sharing and a closed league) is reserved for the playthings of the upper crust, and where a Dickensian existence is the reality of the vast majority.

Developed nations of continental European: where social safety net exists for the vast majority and where the playthings of the upper crust partake in a Dickensian struggle for existence (e.g. relegation and possibly administration for teams; look up Fulham FC, for instance, owned by the owner of Jacksonville)



McNulty wrote:

So to flip it, is there a team that could be rooted for based upon the team values and approach and whose sponsors are benevolent, reputable businesses that give back to society? I'll noodle this.
I'm a Green Bay Packer fan based upon the sound management there, many of the fans are stockholders, literally, and their fans are some of the nicest, unjaded people and most knowledgeable fans out there. It is a small market team. If they moved I'm afraid the perfectly nice little town of Green Bay would crumble. It's nice to see them be so consistently good, going up against the LA and NY teams that are often more attractive places for the athletes to live and play. Not a lot of the guys ice fish.

Also, one shouldn't get too starry eyed about the Packers. The "shares" sold aren't actual securities. They can't be traded and don't receive dividends. Essentially an expensive souvenir made of ink printed onto fancy paper.

If one's actually looking for a socially responsible team, German Bundesliga and 2.Bundesliga (populated by former participants of the Bundesliga are relegated) are the places to look. Especially FC St. Pauli. I don't think any big American sport franchise gives back in a meaningful way. Hell, quite a few are more than happy to saddle indigent cities with hundreds of millions in bonds, only to bolt at the first opportunity to greener pastures.
Last edited by: echappist: Jan 9, 22 11:13
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Re: **Spoilers** 2022 Cycling Thread [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Rucphen is such a fast course.

Over on the Belgian coast I think Wout could have won on a unicycle. Nice to see Hermans podium. I feel like he often has great starts and sets the pace, then fades.

Flipped over to the British race, which was a solid battle sans Pidcock and Ben Turner.
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