That sounds correct. I’m going to butcher the terminology, but it should at least make sense. higher cadence at the same power is going to require less force per revolution, so it’s going to be less of a muscular process than say grinding out at 60rpm. If you’re grinding out at a lower cadence it should cause your HR to be lower at the same wattage compared to running at 100rpm.

So for shorter races you can handle the higher cadence due to the force you’re exerting as the race gets longer it doesn’t make much sense to run high cadence as it exerts more on you’re heart and lungs and you’re not putting out enough power at an Ironman race to need the high cadence to lower the muscular force.

Burthesheep wrote: "I guess maybe it's a tri vs. roadie difference. I'll do a wattage grinding up a climb at 70rpm or do the same spinning out my turn on the front. It costs me the same amount of kindling in my matchbook. But then again, I train both. That's just me but I ride with power and HR and don't see an appreciable difference.”

but do you see any difference? In most of our testing all we saw was a beat or two difference, it wasn’t huge. This isn’t a big deal so much for short efforts like you are describing but it is for efforts lasting an hour or more. Plus, unless the power is exactly the same comparing HR is difficult because power is the biggest variable, 95% according to BioMcGeek.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wll based on previous comments you made, you are going to use a bunch of spacers and a FrankenStem

You will impact your aero, handling and fit

As others have told you by shortening crank length and cadence you have increased pedal force and probably changed your mix of muscle recruitment.

I have done many rides where I can get my HR way down with low cadence higher force and not be able to run afterwards. Do it for short enough periods, as you are doing and you won't see this. Do it at threshold and you will. I do sets every ear to build strength and have verified it many times.

Your call, but I would get a second opinion on the path you are going down, your current guide obviously is unaware of several of the variables at play here.

Toby wrote: "My heart rate is higher when I left myself go to natural cadence of ~95 than when I hold it ~80. Does that mean I'm more efficient (good), or just that I'm using leg muscle instead of aerobic power (bad)? Something I'll have to figure out.”

Higher HR means you are using more oxygen. Is that good or bad? Depends upon your goal. If you are doing a fitness workout means you are doing a harder workout which could be good. If you are racing, it means you are using up resources faster so you will have less in the tank for the final push.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Do you think higher efficiency is helpful for short(<2 hr) efforts?

A sport scientist a little more credible explained it to me this way

Depending on the force you are applying to the pedals you will change your recruitment of ST/FT fibers. If it's heavy on the FT you will get your HR down but will burn out sooner.

Do a maximal 20min test at your self selected cadence. Then try to hold that wattage at 80rpm and i bet you don't make it

Gregf83 wrote: “Do you think higher efficiency is helpful for short(<2 hr) efforts? “ higher efficiencies are better for all efforts, short or long. Higher efficiency means you’re putting out more power for the same effort or oxygen consumption or using less oxygen for the same power, like when you’re riding in the group. Saving resources in a race is important because most races are won or lost in the last 10%, not the first 10%. So, whether doing an IronMan or a matched sprint, efficiency is important and could be the difference between winning and losing.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Marcag wrote: "Do a maximal 20min test at your self selected cadence. Then try to hold that wattage at 80rpm and i bet you don't make it”

Or, try to hold it again at your self selected cadence and I bet you don’t make it BECAUSE YOU ARE TIRED FROM THE FIRST EFFORT. Both tests need be done in the same state to be valid and the other problem is we see there can be daily variations in ability.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I meant do them on two different days and you will still most likely fail

Gregf83, why did you delete your posts? Interesting, I did not think posts could be deleted, guess I am wrong

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

He's probably on your mute list. He didn't delete anything.

Posts can be deleted, although in actual fact it's more 'erased'. You will still see there's something there, it's just empty.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Nope,

And since the post count when down, and his posts were erased, no idea what happened, since never seen this before.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Really Dave? And you wonder why people don't take you seriously?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6500930#p6500930

(For those of you watching at home and just in case you're wondering: I don't know why I'm doing this either)

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

What are you talking about? He has posts deleted, as you can see from the quote from Frank.

Do you want me to post the email notice I got on his post this is now totally gone?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The text Frank quotes (“Do you think higher efficiency is helpful for short(<2 hr) efforts?") is in the post I linked above.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

A post can be deleted permanently if no one else posts after you, if I’m remembering correctly.

But, I would love for Dave to spend time proving that a post was deleted. Sure looks like the post frank replied to is still there. So is the post that replied to franks reply.

Add this to the Dan/ST conspiracy to silence Dave. First we have a banned user with no proof that he is banned. Now we have a deleted post, which Dave has never before seen. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark..

It's called gaslighting. And it's popular in your country these days.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

only the red parts

That's what I thought all along.

Good enter-taint-ment, though.

I didn’t read the nonsense above but I did delete a post I made that referenced Cancellara. I looked something up after I wrote the post and decided what I wrote was probably incorrect.

If some others would reconsider their posts when an error was made this thread would be much shorter...

This question is very simple to awnser by any decent human movement scientist (or at least the one that's writing my trainingplans ;-) ). As I'm not a native speaker, I'll try to explain it as best as I can. The force required to turn the cranks at a lower crank aid in the transportation of blood through your veins. Thus it requires your heart not to beat as much. It doesn't mean that your more efficient or anything, it just wears out your muscles faster, instead of taxing your aerobic system. On the other hand, a higher cadence is trainable, but you have to be willing to invest in your biketraining, instead of looking for shortcuts that aren't really shortcuts.

After being attacked, I was right. So are these folks going to say they were wrong.

I just thought it was weird it was gone, rather than empty, but oh well, .....

Thanks for your posts, data , and questions. Helps at least me continue to learn stuff

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just like I thought one needed longer cranks for leverage in the hills to do well, and may have found this is not true, I also thought one must push high cadence to do well.
But, for me, this also may not be true. So, I still ask, if 70 rpm is bad, how did Chrissie do so well using it at Kona?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Isn't it 4am in California? Get some sleep. :-)

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

As I say, I go to bed at 7pm, get up before 4. Am eating now, and will be on the bike trainer by 5. Then out for my long run by 7am.

My competition is not sleeping.

Congrads on the 700th post in this thread which gets it to the first page on the number of replies.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep