Who is banned? And if you give a name, please provide the link to a ST file that shows ALL the banned folks.

Why do you care who is banned or not? They impacting putting food on your table?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Then ask Frank to log in to his account and post on his own instead of conducting this ridiculous message board seance. This will be my data point.

Thanks.

Old enough that I understand where that is coming from and I know I can't do stuff that I did way back when I was in my 40's. At the same time, our training regimen does not come even close, in intensity and duration, to what professional cyclists do. Much of the time, we amateurs can, in fact, go substantially harder or longer, without increasing our risk of injury, and see improved results in fitness. Your recent data, to the extent it's unequivocal, is actually a case in point there.


From the VERY FIRST LINE in this thread:

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Less is more.

To clarify, I interjected into your exchange with Big Endian. I didn't accuse you of not hammering and I don't care what your training intensity or duration is. Just suggesting you remove all emotional attachment to your testing and that you go through the motions as prescribed to eliminate external interference/influence. You've banked a healthy amount of time and effort working with Frank. Go through it and see the results, but enough of the neener neener BS.

One way to test, but not the one I think is fair. FYI, the only way one is banned is via an IP. So it is very easy to log into ones account in other ways and post if one wants to.
Frank just has not desire to play that game. If Dan feels Franks contributions and opinions are no a value, it is his place. I personally think any persons opinion has value. What I do not believe has any value, and do not allow on any of the groups I moderate, are personal attacks from individuals or mods. But, Dan and I have different opinions on this. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What BS? I post data, and some just want to attack. So, what BS data have I posted?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

One can always find a few that are the exceptions with training. I just look at the total population, via my talking for years to older racers, and watching the USAT ranking numbers, both in quantity and quality. The numbers do not lie.

I will take my risks with not always pushing things to the limit. Does this mean I am not as good as maybe I could be. Possible. But I will continue to try and keep this as a hobby, and not a job.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

He doesn't have the desire to log in to a message board and click send on something he's already typed out? Either Frank is incredibly lazy or this is the equivalent of, "I could jump over that building if I tried. I just don't want to."

I have no idea why Dan allows you or Frank to continue to troll this board, but as you said, it's his place and not ours. Drama on.....

No accusation intended. My father is a lot older than you and guiding him on bike training gives me adequate insight into how old folks need to train.

My point is that having a high proportion of recovery rides in your immediate history puts you in a position where if you start to do consistent harder efforts, irrespective of how you do them, you will likely pick up fitness. That is going to show up in your data as improved power vs. heart rate or vs. RPE. This can easily confound the result you and Frank are trying to establish.

The second point is that if you don't have a good picture of what your current fitness level is, then it is difficult to correlate today's results with those you obtained a week, a month, or six months ago.

If I was you (and based on testing I've done for some unrelated product development) I would at least do my comparison rides on a given day as A-B-A-B. If you only do an A-B set, you don't know if the second one is contaminated by accumulated fatigue, or accumulated warming-up, or what. Secondly, I would do a threshold fitness test so that, when I repeated that test a month or two from now, I'd be able to see how I should interpret the intermediate data.

In case it's not clear, these are my genuinely-trying-to-be-helpful suggestions to improve the quality of the data you're trying to collect.

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Less is more.

Here is an attack for you. This is the dumbest line of reasoning I’ve ever seen. Frank would love to be able to post and prove his immense brain power compared to everyone else. The most straightforward way to prove that frank isn’t banned is to have him log in and post.

All fair points but I have been riding compared to most I believe pretty hard. 3 days a week of intervals at 230 watts. 1 day Martis. I also have raced very hard during the entire year. So trust me, fitness is not an issue. Pushing a stroller with a grandkid in Nov in a 5 K at 19:53 again shows, I stay in shape.

But this is why we are like 3 months of collecting data and will continue. When I test at 175's, and then a few minutes later at 150's, or the next day the other way around, how is this data not valid? Again, trying to understand.

This is what most just do not understand. When I am asking why, I am asking trying to understand and saying thanks, by asking! I am NOT telling anyone that they are nuts am I?

I can only do so much of this testing, meaning, I still run for 30 to 90 minutes after the bike each day. Then I tend to work around my hilly lot all day long.
Would be great to do more testing in ways you are suggesting, I just only have so much in me doing this. If it becomes a chore, job, etc., I will stop.

So is it possible that maybe what we are doing is not perfect, but it is sure better than most that never collect data?

Thanks for the inputs. Just because we do not change, this second, does not mean we are not listening and adjusting!!!!!

And today I did not get to run long since I have to be Mr. Mom and babysit my sick grandkid. :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The data are the data and I no issue with your posting of data. If people find it of value, awesome. If they don't, oh well. The BS reference is in reference to banter that doesn't drive the project forward. As noted above, your previous results (as great as they are) aren't relevant, so no need to bring them up. Maybe neener neener BS was too harsh.

Years of experience.

Nevermind.......answered my own question.....

I respect that is your opinion. But sorry, for me, I am going to try and use a data driven approach. I guess you are saying that everyone should use 170mm cranks?
Again, if not, this is why I tried to ask why since I really am trying to understand more than just trust me.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

anecdote(x) != data

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

H2Ofun wrote: "So, what is the shortest anyone has raced with? Have any safety issues, like handling because of this?
what did you do with your RPM rate? ”

The shortest cranks I am ever aware of anyone “racing" with is 110 mm cranks ridden in the Everest Challenge (28,000 feet of climbing). Rider came in top 10, an improvement over his previous year. Some evidence I suspect that one can climb just fine on short cranks as long as one is geared properly. The shortest I have heard of in IM racing is Courtney Ogden racing on 145 mm cranks (and winning). Courtney is currently revisiting the crank length question.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Big Endian wrote: "Quite simply, for some reason you're working harder when you ride the short cranks. Your heart rate is higher for these efforts, correlating with the higher power.”

Actually, if you look at the Martis results you will see higher power at a lower HR. Recently he has been pushing the HR but generally his pulse power is higher on shorter cranks, at least so far. I intend to take him to the point that it starts to drop.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

....I'm sorry for coming in so late in this thread (I wanted to be part of the 1000 post it gets) and not looking into your data, but what's the standard deviation you see?

And what are your maximum effects say at 140 mm vs 175 and 200 mm vs 175? You ride at constant watt and record your bpm right?

If the maximum difference is only 5 or so bpm then you can't expect to further optimize your crank length with these tests because you will not be able to resolve your data by 1 bpm.

Take care.
U

JCTRIGUY wrote: "Frank, you have zero data to support a claim that Dave has ‘elite’ level bike fitness. You have zero performance tests, zero race data. You also have so many changing factors within a day and even more between days, that any attempt to connect the dots is guessing based on both of your well established biases.”

That fact that he is top 10 nationally ranked offers at least a bit of support for my claim he is an elite ATHLETE. I have never claimed he is an elite cyclist. In fact, I have always felt he has made some just awful choices that were limiting his potential which is why I kept pestering him. Luckily for him he made one choice many years ago that helped limit these losses from these bad choices so he has raced well. But, in my opinion, he could get better, a lot better. So, now we are in a process of trying to get him to much better choices to see if we can turn his biking into the level of his running. So far the results look promising. We will know a lot more next spring.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My working range for triathletes is 145-170, so you are obviously on the high end. 170 is reserved for the longest legged riders. That length will more than likely get you as low as you would want to be while preserving all your prodigious power. Low enough that any lower wouldn't be useful. We really want the longest length that will allow the lowest practical position, to minimize your drag. Your ideal range is probably like 167.5 - 172.5, maybe 170-175.

JCTRIGUY wrote: "Frank, where is the entry/exit test to show a 40 watt increase? What testing process is showing that increase? What are the other factors (hr in this case since you have no max efforts). How are you ruling out adaptation to the testing process?”

I misspoke somewhat. I remembered his 2016 Martis testing power averaged about 180, I went back and looked and the last 11 tests before we started this (between October and January) averaged 187. His Martis testing since starting this process has averaged 217, a 30 watt improvement at a lower average HR. Recently he has been putting out 225 watts albeit at a shorter distance and slightly higher HR. So, 30 watts is fairly well documented. My guess is when we get through with this and he goes back and does Martis again we will be at 40 watts.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Derekl Wrote: "Then ask Frank to log in to his account and post on his own instead of conducting this ridiculous message board seance. This will be my data point.

Thanks.”

I check about once a year or so to see if the ban is still in effect. Last I checked it was. I doubt Dan will ever let me back as he just considers me to to TOO controversial. The comment was I was ruining the site. So, I just post in this way when I can and it is particularly relevant. In this case the thread was about a protocol I developed and was running and there was an awful lot of alternative facts being thrown about. I figured that those who prefer real facts might actually enjoy hearing from me so I suggested to Dave I post a clarification through him. People are now asking me questions so I keep clarifying.

Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Will let Frank answer the technical stuff. 1000 posts, guess it is possible. :)

I have ridden the last 3 months, if you get a chance to pull up the latest excel spreadsheet with the data, in many different ways collecting data. First it was sitting up
at a fixed power and different RPM levels collecting HR. We first did high to low, then low to high.

We then had me doing low to high, 50% aero, fixed wattage, collecting HR.

I then did some riding of my Martis test course, 14.23 mile, which is just like you were riding it outside in real life. This has been the closest I feel I can ride on my trainer and see what is happening with my ability on the bike. I was shocked to see I could ride this course, will hills up to 18.6% grade, with the 150 cranks, and the last ride had my fastest ride ever in the 3 years,an just about 100 times I have ridden, and logged results.

We are now having me ride 100% aero with 2 different crank lengths on a 5 mile flat course. I go hard, for me, and see what time and watts I can push. (You can see my HR is up so I am working harder than normal) I again have to be honest am shocked that so far 100% of the time, I have had about 10% more power on the 150's vs 175's. I even had 10% more power on the 145's this morning compared to the 175's. Frank is sending me out an adapter so I can try 140 and 135 cranks. I think this is nuts, just like I used to think 150's was nuts, but will let the data show me the way. I want improvement, not my biases to hold me back.

I believe we are not putting a large focus on HR. It is just one data point. The big take away for me with the data was as I went higher in RPM, my HR really started to increase, which I could feel in fatigue. This is why I am not slowing down my RPM to like 70-75 range, rather than the 85-90 I used to push, and 95 in races.

Did I answer anything for you? Thanks for the questions.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You’re 100 percent wrong (not shocking at all). Dan or any of the mods can disable a user ID so you can’t log in. People that were banned used to have black text for their name. For some reason that changed at some point however they certainly can block a user ID. Hence why I’m logged in under my name instead of my old cyclonehockey21 profile. If I try to log into that it says UserID disabled... but sure keep thinking you’re correct even if you’re not.