Not an excuse, but I did hear he was sick before the race, which might have contributed towards a drop off in the back half of the run. Fingers crossed he'll be fully fit & healthy for St George; if so, he'll certainly be in the mix.

I am not a fan of Alistair but I do believe this was a blip and he will be a strong contented at St Georges.

He is probably suffering the effects of over training while trying to get ready for his sub-7 attempt. He has been killing it. I know he has been working with Nigel Mitchell and a few other specialists who know what it takes to do the endurance feats through and through. I can only imagine his next training block at altitude is part of the plan and when he comes back down from that he will either be untouchable, or completely burned out. Who knows - only Alistair probably! I hope he turns up at St. George in the shape of his life and gives Blumenfelt a run for his money. By the end of this year he could have 2 world championship trophies and the first sub-7 under his belt. That takes some planning and training for - who knows if his body is up for it.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Thing is everyone who's followed Ali's career knows even a 80% fit returning from injury Ali still wins races.

There are at least signs now for me that he's not going to be as dominant as he was, all those injuries were bound to take their toll eventually.

I feel like he was running with a substantial asymmetry between his left and right foot plant. One more up on his toes as he always use to run and the other more flat footed. Perhaps it relates to the recent operation. Anyone else notice that?

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Is there a picture of his ankle xray in public?

I think 70.3 has moved on since his last attempt, and he could have been taken by surprise at what took place.

I wonder if he could have pushed the swim harder too, gone out with maybe just Kanute and tried to gain the extra 30-60seconds there.

If there were no physical problems with his ankle then Oceanside was probably a lesson learned. I think if there had have been a problem with his ankle then he'd have come straight out and more or less retired.

its just not in his character to let a win go that easy. unless it was simply a test run, part of the bigger plan or he simply doesnt have the speed. i lean towards Oceanside just being a warmer upper for him. He didnt look too upset at the finish.

I saw a stronger Alistair, when he was in ITU he was so skinny and I think that was his weakness point when he jumped to 70.3 and 140.6

He did a great race, I think he will be in the mix too for St George

He was beaten. Period. He did not let a win slip. He had no chance of beating Laundry on that day. Good effort coming back from an injury, but I'm in the camp of he had to prove something and hasn't. He deserves respect for his past, but can't be held to a lofty standard of praise when talking about current races. There are so many guys that can beat him any given day. I've been noticing the guys getting the least attention have made some noise such as Jackson Laundry (1st Oceanside) and Jason West (2nd Miami). I don't think he's going to be that dominant force coming back from injury. I don't think he's the same or ever will be. Too much time has passed in a sport where the window of success is so short.

It’s funny because I’ve never been a huge AB fan, and back in 2018-2019 my opinion was that his mentality would be his own worst enemy in LC.

In this case I actually think he was testing his injury under load…..ie….went 17-18 km with almost best in race splits….Laundry comes up and AB realizes how deep you would have to dig to contend and actually made a decision that it’s better to pull back and come fourth, and come out of this OK with 5 good weeks of training ahead.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think anyone was beating Laundry on that day….but I am of the opinion that AB is now learning the finer elements of LC humility, if that’s a good word?

Maurice

I agree. FoP swim but don't murder it. Controlled bike; pushing but moderated. Run at planned pace, but body not willing for last few miles. Some sickness in last fortnight may have affected his ability to maintain 5:10 pace for the full 13.1 miles. Hope Flagstaff prep goes well.
Minimal "doubts about Alistair".

Hasn't raced for ages, serious ankle surgery recently and yet he comes back and leads a very stacked field for most of the race. Less than a minute back at the finish. I'd call that pretty decent. He isn't going to dominate like he did in ITU and he seems more fragile than ever but seriously I would not ever bet against him.

As he has said, early in the season and working up to his fitness to be fully fit for St George. Funnny, he loses a race and everyone doubts him… big mistake. He will be in Flagstaff for 4 weeks and will be ready.

I can't deny AB has an incredible resume and should be in the mix at SG. However, this thread notwithstanding, he is always mentioned as one of the big boys, or a top tier guy, or Frodo class. However, at LC and half distance, he is quite inconsistent. This is yet another example of it.

No doubt he is an incredible contender, but to me he is another one of the tier of athletes that if they can just put it together on race day they will dominate, but actually doing so isn't a given.

well yes when an athlete of his calibre does not podium then there is reason to ponder on why/what happened?
Lets just hope all these incredible athletes get to the start line peaked and ready to rumble. Its a fine line between peak performance and total disintegration. Alistair on about this sub 7 hours now.

He has two second places at 70.3 World's (its debatable whether he was even at 100% for them races)

That's not bad for someone who doesn't deserve to be mentioned with your Frodos etc!

Yeah that's what funny. You would think those kind of results would be sufficient to be considered top tier, but according to a number of threads earlier this year and late last year, some people are considered top tier with inconsistent performances and some second places, but others are considered second tier at best unless they win every race and couple of majors.

AB usually gets a pass because of his short course domination, but I'm not sure its warranted given his inconsistency.

Gómez has two wins and isn't even mentioned over here.

Someone mentioned Gomez as a dark horse pick for St George, it'll be weird if at least one from the Brownlees or Gomez do not pull off a win at Kona at some point given how far ahead of everyone else they was in SC!

His 2nd place at the 70.3 worlds in South Africa was after a long injury lay off with very little running. He's as good as Frodeno and will win Kona if he can stay injury free. And he's still relatively young at 33, a similar age to Mark Allen and Frodeno when they both first won Kona. And 2021 he hardly ran, doing random things like gravel races. Oceanside he was only 55s off the winners time and had the 2nd fastest bike and swim splits. He may never win Kona, but that will be down to injuries not lack of talent, determination or motivation.

You forgot about race day tactics........

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Yeah he surprised me with how he raced in his Kona debut. It's admirable he's so competitive, aggressive and has such a huge will to win. But perhaps with long course you need to race a bit smarter with a bit less aggression as a few peeps have found out e.g Chris McCormack.

Is AB racing St George and/or Kona? I think he qualified for one of them in 2019 in Busso.

His Daytona wasn't great either.

I'm not trying to bash the guy at all. My view is a few guys like frodeno or Iden or maybe Lange (2016-2018) are/were sure bets. AB should be a sure bet, but his tactics or whatever let him down sometimes at the longer stuff.

It's frustrating to see.

55s back with a mean chest cold. He’ll be in the mix in StG. He swims too well to not be a factor.

it was illness at oceanside https://www.220triathlon.com/...ready-for-st-george/

Its a pity, sounds like with the planned Flagstaff altitude camp he wouldve been a weapon at St George

What's "a pity"? What do you imply by "planned"? Where do you think he's sharpening that "weapon", then, Leeds? With this preparation and fit in mind, body and gut, Brownlee will (not "wouldve"(sic)) be a weapon. But without Frodeno as a fellow traveller to T2, he will have some difficult choices to make.
As for 'lack of consistency' at LD and 70.3, suggested by another poster: yeravvin' a larf.
Wins at 2 of 3 longs, and a risk-all attempt to be up there at Kona 19 which blew up.
Wins or 2nds at every 70.3 race before 2020, with silvers at South Africa (18) and Nice (19) behind Frodeno and Iden respectively. "Inconsistent"?!
First race back (designed as warm up for May) comes a good 4th at Oceanside. Would've been great if he could've sustained the pace set for the final 3 miles: but couldn't (or didn't wish to).
https://protriathletes.org/...te/alistair-brownlee
Where is the (also ill-founded) "Doubts about Blummenfelt" thread after his inability to ride close to required speed at Dubai, plus inability to fit tyres that hold air for 70.3s.
"Doubts about Iden"? He has not raced since September! No doubts.

The article states he is racing and ready for St. George.

Was it not reported that after Oceanside he went back to Yorkshire instead of going to flagstaff for another altitude block before Saint George?

Definately rooting for anyone that can see racing and working from the canon. Pity front swimmers Frodo, OT, Amburger and even Lange wont be there. Its up to Beakkegard and Brownlee

I think the last time Lange tried to race in the Frodo pack he over swam and was done by Hawi (2019). Illness could have been part of it, but I would not classify him as being in the group with Amberger, Frodo and Brownlee in the swim. In a post race interview Frodo said he was happy that Lange swam with them as this would take the sharpness out of his legs for the rest of the race (which as it turned out he did not finish).

No, some dude on Slowtwitch said he'd gone back to Yorkshire based on a video posted on his Insta which had clearly been recorded before Oceanside.

Pretty sure he is in Flagstaff with Holly Lawrence and Ruth Astle....

That was debunked as an old video for his new bike. The color of the trees was mentioned.

It's very simple. Show us and deliver what he can do. Some athletes deliver constant wins several times in a row, some doesn't win all the time, but get on podium all the time. Some athletes go through ups and downs and are not consistent. Where does he belong to? We will see.

Are you seriously questioning the history of performances by Ali Brownlee??? You new to this sport?

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

My bad. I was talking about his recent performance. Championship at Kona, Oceanside, Challenge Daytona...etc. I know he's an incredible athlete, but haven't seen him winning or getting on the podium recently.

McElroy’s IG stories today show AB in Flagstaff

https://instagram.com/...?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Right...also there is the matter of his questionable durability over the longer distance triathlons. No doubt he has been one of the best shorter course triathletes, but as of yet he is at best hit and miss at proving his durability over the longer distances.

Bet against a healthy and fit Alistair Brownlee at your own peril.

On one hand I agree, but on the other hand this is also true of Frodo, Lange, Iden, and KB just to name a few. Being healthy and fit at the right time is all part of the game and so far at long course and even at recent halfs, he hasn't lived up to the promise many think he has.

So you only count the bad races in the last 4 years no st.geroge 2017, 70.3 worlds 2018, 2019, his two ironman's he both won pretty easily. Just look at the bad days....

if we do that for anyone can look pretty bad. Jan 2017 kona, 2018 kona missed.

Jan wasn't first at 70.3 worlds or kona on his first attempts either.

time will tell....

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Even though he's still good, there are so many young guys improving fast like Sam Long, Blu, Iden. I still have doubts about him until he smashes the field and proves that he's not done yet.
Just like you said let's tune in and see!!

I'd never bet against a fit and healthy Alistair, I just wonder if we'll ever have that privilege of seeing him again.

Hopefully we will

https://www.tri247.com/...raining-numbers-sub7

Hope wont get anyone anywhere. Joe Skipper is probably impressed with AB numbers but who wouldnt be? Point is something prevented Alistair from winning Oceanside. And of course I don't know either. However my feeling is that he just didnt seem to push, which to me would indicate just wanting to be at the front again, hang on for as long as comfortable and use the race as a test in his build to SG. So I think he is peaking towards SG.
Interesting is that the athletes have done almost all their volume and hard sessions. Now its just hangin on, avoiding injuries, no covid and believing in yourself.
Im really looking forward to the race, but expectations have always gotten me in trouble and led to disappointment! There will inevitably be a few more pros that fail to get to the start for various reasons. Fingers crossed for LS and AB.

Brownlee was ill before Oceanside, as has been quite widely reported

If anyone has ever raced when sick you will know when it hits you during a race it hits you bad! AB was sick as noted

Interesting with Gomez out, he was another who could potentially have split the swim with Brownlee. Playing into the hands of the Norwegians, Lionel Sanders etc more and more.

there is still a lot good swimmers in the field neuman, smith , laidlow , baakegard , angert ,the one who likely would have had the biggest impact was josh amberger. gomes does not do to much leadwork in the swim .

Great to hear that Brownlee is getting some sun and altitude

The front end field depth evaporated a bit but Baekkegard and Brownlee could have similar pace profiles

Is David Macnamee on form? What about Hoffman, Aernauts and Currie?

4th place isn't bad at all if he was sick!

There's hope we could see something special again coming.

yeah, i think the timing of that BMC video from brownlee threw a few people for a loop. i was confused too.

macnamee has had some shaky performances this year at a couple of halfs - struggled with illness i think. but he did run a 1:11 at oceanside, which is solid. i think his training has been good, working with vincent luis and co., and i figure a race of attrition (like st.george might turn into) would play into his hands.

haven't followed bart as closely, but he also had a middling day at oceanside. but braden has had some intriguing performances - he was stuck in NZ for a while and had IM NZ cancelled, but did win a legendary adventure race there in convincing fashion.

hoff is currently slated to race texas this weekend, as well as st.george; i think in the past he's been cool with high volume, so maybe he'll train right through texas, or maybe (?) his 'real' focus is kona and this is all just early-season stuff for him.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Baekkegard is a FOP swimmer, so no problem with that...He is also a good biker...if he´s got the day he can do some damage cause he also knows the course.... There are 6 main favourites right now: Iden, Blum, Brownlee, Baekkegard, Sanders, Long. (I ignore wether Skipper is sick or what..). Blum will catch Alistair an Baekkegard in the first miles of the bike (though I would not be surprised with the guy exiting the water with Alistair)...

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

I think batting 2/3 in Ironman while concurrently doing short course is pretty amazing. HIs loss in Kona BTW was crazy. I can not imagine how much energy he expended chasing back to Frodeno and TO. I think he would have podiumed if he waited for the Wurf train.

He clearly did some calculation in his head at Oceanside, really his first tri since western australia, and did not up the gear when passed. He may have been sick or realized that at 33 you only have so many matches per season. Could have also not wanted the target on his back as much at St George. He strolled across that line, 55 sec behind(only) and patted a clearly spent 2nd and 3rd on the back, casually walked away and started working on what needs to be worked on.
When you have 2 Gold medals oceanside does not matter, only the WC matters. not saying he will win but he will be a huge factor being one of the biggest engines, across all three disciplines, the sport has seen.

I would be very surprised to see that!

Without Josh Amberger there to drive the swim, I'll be surprised if the swim speed is especially fast. Alistair will certainly be firmly attached to the toes of the first or second swimmer but I've never seen him lead a distance swim. If you can point to any where he himself drove the swim I'd be glad to be corrected. He's too smart a racer to waste his energy towing the field. I expect Blu to come out very close to Alistair.

YMMV,

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Ali has lead the swim a few time in ITU when the pace hasn't been on to his liking, he's been first out the water a few times.

He's a clever racer, so I'm sure if need be he'll lead that swim.

Please name me a race where he did this from early in the swim, not just the last hundred meters or so. I do remember Johnny leading out a couple of swims with dire results later in the race.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Not a chance I can do this off the top of my head, and can't be arsed going through every race swim to find out when this happened.

It certainly wasn't a regular thing especially when Varga was racing (what the hells happened to him by the way?) Just a few times, defo a race were post interview Ali complained about the pace of the swim and said he had to go to the front.

He's a clever racer, so I'm sure if need be he'll lead that swim. //

THIS^^^^

The swim could end up like a bike race, a super hot pace from the beginning to shake out all the groups, then a nice settle in to the finish. I could see Ali setting a blistering early pace to make sure the hurt is put on enough to break the elastic back to Blu and others, then make them burn matches closing whatever swim gap they can easily hold. That would be my tactic, as long as there is at least one or two that can hang with you during your attack...

Dennis Chevrot , Kyle Smith, Angert and a fit Braden Currie can make the front pack too....Chevrot was first out of the water in Kona 18. So add them to Alistair and DB and maybe Blummie...

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Austria 2011 (could have been 2010), Macca's return to try to qualify for the London Olympics.

AB let the swim, and the whole race from the get go.

I remember it because Macca was off the back in the swim and AB was commenting how slow the swim was.

Thanks, I'll go watch that one. That was a decade ago and therefore before I was following regularly. I still expect to watch him very near but not at the front.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I'm glad someone has an encyclopedic like knowledge of races!

Just watched the highlights which showed the bulk of the swim and as you said, Alistair did put on a master class driving it right from the get go. I’m still ready to bet he won't be found leading the coming swim. I do however fully expect him to be exhorting the swimmer ahead of him to go faster;)

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Heard on the triathlon mockery podcast today that Varga is racing IM Texas tomorrow!

Varga being in IM is bad news for those weak swimmers!

Which race was this exactly? Might have a watch of this myself over the weekend.

It was 2011 Kitzbühel and Alistair was definitely in fine form.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Alistair is in fine form! With only 5 days to go we know whos in and whos out. Except for Wurf, whats his status anyone know?
I hope hes in to see a true Cyclist smoke the bike course.

I've got Alistair on the podium, and a decent shout at the W.

This will be the first 140.6 focussed and run fit AB we will have seen in LC. He'll have dialled in pacing and nutrition as part of the sub 7 prep and despite his reputation as a reckless racer in LC a lot of that was down to 'I haven't got the run fitness, I need to win this on the bike'. If he has the run in the locker, that will temper his bike strategy.

As someone noted earlier, the Oceanside 4th finish didn't show a man who'd gone all in for the W, and had blown. He'll enjoy being off the radar, maybe even written off by some and won't be the most marked, and watched athlete out there.

He needs to show up to the start line to win. He’s been well prepared but not 100%. Again, he can’t show us what he got. Cramp, injury, 4th place at Oceanside… I’m sorry but haven’t seen his recent stellar performance that blows everyone away. We have to wait for months again.

Again, he’s injured and can’t participate in Sub 7 project.

Haha not really :) I think you do better.

I really enjoyed the ITU during 2010 - 2017.

The Brownlee brothers + Gomez turned it into a smash fest and the courses were (mostly) interesting. There was even a hill climb event one year.

The women's racing was also really good: Stanford, Holland, Spirig, Jorgensen, Duffy (and many more tbh)

AB's performance in London 2012 remains the best I've ever seen at any distance. The women's race was a five-way sprint.

Lately it's lost it's charm for me, for reasons I can't quite work out.

The same goes for IM in an odd way. 2006 - 2014 seemed like a golden era. Wellington, Stadler, Alexander, Carfree, Ryf, Macca, Faris, Sindballe etc.

It's become a lot more 'plastic' since.

Anyway, back on topic, I really wish AB would have just one good year at full distance. He smashed the IMWA just after the blow up in Hawaii, so my guess is he can do well.

I would love to know what really goes on behind the scenes. Maybe one day he'll write a book with the details.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?page=unread#unread

Will we see Ali in Kona? He should get a wildcard invite along with Gomez. They are names I want to see on the start line.

We will see neither at Kona, and rightly so.
These guys have to start and finish some decent races, including a full distance, before throwing themselves at Kona. They need to demonstrate readiness to race, if only to themselves.
Brownlee has managed Oceanside (3:45). Gomez raced Pucon (3:50).

would love to see both of them there, and i also wish kona made more liberal use of wildcards. for instance, i think olympic champs should always have a standing invite. in a field of 2000+ athletes, adding another few men and women pros with the potential to make the race interesting wouldn't meaningfully add to crowding, nor would it dilute the sanctity of the kona qualification process.

of course, the taller order is getting ali and javi to the start line fit and healthy. still, we can dream . . .

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I'm a huge fan and even I've lost track of what injury he's now got?

He pulled out of Sub7 with a hip issue.

I think Ali is too fragile to ever be able to race consistently again. Gomez is more durable and I would like to see what he can do, at least one more time, at Kona. I think Ali's future lies in commentary. He is awesome as a commentator for Super League and he would be awesome for Ironman and who knows what else. He should focus on that and hang up the running shoes.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Too bad I've never witnessed his awesomeness. I can still watch his incredible ITU races on YouTube, but it looks like I will never see him winning some serious Ironman races with stacked field on Facebook Live. I'm a big fan of Vincent Luis and I have a doubt about him too. He hasn't been doing well lately either. No injury though.

They sould give an invite to Łukasz Wójt, I want to see him swim in Kona and break that record.

All teenage sport sensations seem to end up injured and burnt out earlier in their careers more.

Racing the PTO Canadian open races apparently.

I don’t think a double Olympic champion with a career spanning close to 20 years can be classed as burnt out early.

If he is in reasonable shape and not likely to cause further injury problems then it’s a good move. Even a semi fit Ali will top 10….and the prize fund is exceptional?

It's been a very long time since I've seen Ali run fit, maybe even Rio Olympics, maybe someone can correct me if they've seen him run at his absolute best since then?

Geez, no kidding. The only repeat Olympic Champion, - men or women - and he went to 3 Olympic games. What a horrible take.

• 1. $100,000
• 2. $70,000
• 3. $50,000
• 4. $40,000
• 5. $35,000
• 6. $30,000
• 7. $25,000
• 8. $20,000
• 9. $18,000
• 10. $16,000
• 11. $14,000
• 12. $13,000
• 13. $12,000
• 14, $11,000
• 15, $10,000
• 16. $9,000
• 17. $8,000
• 18. $7,000
• 19. $6,000
• 20. $5,000
• 21-40. $2,000 each

He ran 1:07:40 at 70.3 Worlds in SA in 2018. I'd say that's a pretty solid run. I can only think of a few pros that have ran sub 1:08.

2018 70.3 worlds, he went sub 1h10min to take silver in perhaps the most amazing 70.3 race I have seen. That was almost 4 years ago, but still counts as reasonably recent.

edit - sorry TulkasTri, saw your post too late.

I don't think Ali was fully run fit for that 70.3 Worlds.

That race did some actual damage to a few guys IMO. It was awesome though seeing those runs being laid down.

It was so beautiful seeing Jan, Ali, and Javi racing eachother. Jan returned injured from that race, but he ran a 1:06:34.

How many 1:06s have we seen?

I don't think Ali, Gomez or Frodo had another decent race that year from memory, all three went deep!

Unfortunately, given this was a stress reaction in his hip, I would guess that his run training would be the first thing to take a pause.

Beautiful indeed, for once Jan was pushed by aggressive and strong competitors; hopefully we get to see something similar in Kona this year.

And as far as i remember there has only been Blummenfelt at Bahrain 2018 also with a 1:06, Iden clocked a 1:07 on the same day. But to be fair the course in South Africa was harder so all the more credit to Frodeno.

Yup, instant classic!

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Let food be thy medicine...

Thanks for the link.

I think there is an underappreciation of how much he has done for children in sport with the Brownlee foundation. It's good that Bob asked him about it. Rather than use his name for himself, he's used it for the good of others. Good for him.

In terms of fitness, he says he's not there with running, but wants to race and wants to support the PTO by racing. That's also a nice thing to hear.

He seems to get a lot of stick on here, but came across really nicely in this interview.

And in few years he needs to be the commentator, partnered with Kienle (who is also excellent).

After all his success, it must be immensely frustrating to keep getting hampered/DNS by sickness or injury eg Oceanside, St George and Sub7.
I thought his commentary contributions on Sub7/Sub8, for example, were excellent and insightful.
By the way he is also on the start list for the 70.3 in Swansea (Wales) in a fortnight which is effectively the UK half distance 'championships' with strong domestic MPRO and WPRO start lists.

On the start list with his run not where he wants it is prety much where he's been for years.

Interesting to hear him say he's never got sick since I'm guessing he got vaccinated, I can relate!

I actually think he was looking a lot better at SC when trying to qualify for Tokyo than he has at most of his LC races, still waiting to hear what happened.

Well, whatever happened to Ali it was cringeworthy. As soon as he started to run he did not look good at all and he looked like he was struggling big time. I have said it before, I think he should consider retiring as a pro and doing us fans a favor and move to commentating on races. He is great behind the microphone and more races should have him on their broadcasts.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

He really is an enjoyable commentator.

It would be so hard when you still swim and ride at that level, and you have been a top runner, to give it up. Especially with unfinished LC business. I don’t fault him for continuing to chase it.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

I'm sure he's considered retiring, but if he thinks he can get his run back one day he's the best person to judge.

Agreed.

I wouldn't write him off just yet. Will he dominate long course racing? No. Will he be able to pull the odd quality race out of the bag? Yes.

Personally, once he gets some run form back, I'd like to see him continue to swim the way he does but then just sit in the bike 'pack' and see how that impacts on his run performance. I don't think you can hammer all 3 disciplines in long course (unless you are Norwegian).

Or Jan Frodeno...

Or a fit Alistair Brownlee!

Why is it when he loses he “isn’t run fit” and when he wins he “only has a few weeks of running”? It comes off a bit sour in that if he just wasn’t injured he would win everything.

He had two amazing Olympic cycles but it seems that style of training was the price of admission for back to back golds but has limited his total career.

Scott

It's prety much his whole career after 2009 maybe (when he went unbeaten the whole season)

Maybe someone will correct me, but every year he's had a bad injury since.

Since Rio he must have had about 3 operations.

I see where you are coming from, but from 2010 onwards, what you wrote was pretty much true! Constant injuries, last minute run prep and win. What he managed to do well was recover from a bad injury just in time for London 2012 (which for me is the best tri performance I have ever seen), and for Rio it was similar, although not quite as drastic as for London.


On the rare occasion he didn't win, it was due to clear injury issues (or the odd mad bonk sending himself unconscious).

Then the LC move comes, and it seems it's been a never-ending cycle of injury.

The two World 70.3 silvers were a similar story, Kona 2019 he exploded, as have many, and a few weeks later he then went 7:45 in Australia smashing the course record.

So it's not all bad. Two world silver plus an IM course record in 7:45.

For the PTO, he made it clear in his interview with Bob Babbit that he wasn't in good shape.

What really confuses me is why he turns up to race when he's not fit. He must have a big racing ego, so it must hurt him to lose like this.

I really wish we had more insight into these episodes, but he divulges very little. I would love to know why he took part, and what he really thought would happen.

Said he had really bad stomp cramps, he's racing Ironman 70.3 Swansea next week.

That is very interested indeed. But as he quickly said, he is not a "conspiracy theorist"...

I'm glad it had nothing to do with injuries! Anyone know if any decent pros in the men's race for Swansea?

He is a PTO board member and has a vested interest in making the PTO work. He was intrumantal in getting the Helvellyn Triathlon sponsored by the PTO back in 2020 between the two covid lockdowns we had here in the UK. He raced ITU Hamburg on the Saturday then flew straight back to the UK and got to the start of the Helvellyn triathlon for 8 o'clock on the Sunday. That is how important the PTO is to Alistair. He got top 10 at Hamburg and won Helvellyn - he looked like shit on the start line on Sunday as well.

I believe he has also been voted to represent on the IOC board as well. I get the feeling that could spell the end of his racing career and the start of his IOC career - but I could be completely wrong about that its just me blowing steam off on Slowtwitch!

Whatever it is that makes somebody diven - that guy got it.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Too bad, I've never seen him doing great in any Ironman or PTO races recently. It's always something, so he ends up doing subpar job or pulls out from the race. Just like the title says, I highly doubt he will do well in any races in the future. New comers are just too fast and strong.

Yes - Royle, Davis, Clavel, Bishop; and in WPRO: Matthews, Bartlett, Dant and Astle.
https://files.constantcontact.com/...b19272c.pdf?rdr=true

Confirmed yesterday - he has been appointed to the IOC athletes commission. Along with the Brownlee foundation he (and his borther) really has put a lot of time and effort into helping young people into sport. He has been very visible and vocal locally here in the UK. If his athletic career is coming to an end he has set the base for an amazing onward career helping people in sport and supporting the athletes through the IOC commission. Chapeau.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Wonder if this means he is targeting 70.3 worlds instead of Kona, or if Swansea is a shakedown for a 140.6 to qualify for Kona.

I saw that as well. Do we believe him? I guess we’ll see what he does at Swansea.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Suffering bad stomach cramp is consistent with what we saw on the coverage, from T2 onwards to the seriously pained expressions etc so I see not reason not to "believe him". If you are querying whether he'll race Swansea, who knows, but Astle is racing and the race is effectively the top UK 70.3 in 2022, with several other top Brits and Clavel. Matthews and Bartlett in WPRO (if latter recovered from C-19 'cold symptoms'). 2 x MPRO and 2 x WPRO start slots for WC St George in October. Think the chances of him starting an IM anytime soon are negligible.

I hope so - I’d like to see a relatively healthy Alistair at a few more big races. I didn’t see much of the men’s race, hopefully just a one-off thing.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

He’s entered Ironman Kalmar in August as a last shot.

Very interested in Swansea 70.3 next week.

He’s bound to have some luck someday…

Only heard of Bishop on that start list...

https://www.220triathlon.com/...ronman-70-3-swansea/

3:49 on a very tough course with a 1:09 run.

Not too bad!

Isn’t the guy who came second considered a bit of a super runner; Lopes?

Swam with Horsfall Turner and biked off on his own.

Looked quite healthy crossing the finish line, bonus!

He was on another level in Swansea. Held AHT's feet in the swim, rode away, then solid on a warm run. His full distance in a couple of weeks will be interesting

What IM race is he down for?

Kalmar / Sweden

It’s not the race distance that is the issue is it? It seems like it’s the pressure/tactics that play out in stacked fields that is the biggest obstacle he’s still yet to figure out in LC racing.

I’d wager his next IM he’ll easily “crush it” as it’s what a B/C level field??

That’s not the issue imo w/ AB at LC races. It’s racing stacked fields that brings in more decisions and thus more consequences of said decisions that is the issue.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'd never thought of that - but it would seem you have a really good point. I suppose the only outlier here is the 70.3 worlds in South Africa where he, Gomez and Frodeno put down 1:07-1:08 runs having been doing all the work on the bike (AB and Frodo anyway)

But other than that, you're right. I wonder if it's his balls to the wall mentality from ITU? In ITU he was game changing - he could smash all three disciplines and win. In fact, since he has left ITU, it has become what is was up to 2009 - a bore fest of pack rides followed by the best runner wins.

Perhaps he applies this method to LC and it catches him out.

Why do you think that is? He's not stupid, for sure.

☝️….but maybe you can also still hammer all 3 disciplines when you are on a good day.

No I don’t think he’s stupid at all. He’s brilliant at the tactics and the history and the understanding of races. But I think there is an “arrogance” of his will is better than everyone else’s and so if he’s in the hurt locker imagine how bad the others are.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I partially agree with the tactics but not the pressure. London 2012 was a pressure cooker and he did ok.

He leads out, today that lead out was easy and controlled no stress on the body. When fields are stacked he still leads out and I am not convinced this is the best tactic for him. Once/if he figures out LC racing in stacked fields he will be up there with the best.

I specifically said Pressure in regards to LC.

he’s still yet to figure out in LC racing.

Bringing up his itu success kinda further showcases the point. He was the patron saint in itu. Now he’s becoming the guy that if they give him enough rope, he’ll hang himself w his bike effort.

A wise coach one told me- “when an athlete shows you who they are, believe them”.

Until AB can show us he’s figured out racing stacked world class fields, he’ll just be more of the guy who makes the race and not the guy winning the races.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It's a nice take, thank you.

Hopefully he fixes this.

I'd like to see him do himself justice at LC, even if only briefly.

From the Twitter clips I've seen from the course today, he was moving at a hell of a pace on the run and looked totally relaxed

His running form is fantastic.

I think fixing it takes racing consistently big races and that is unfortunately his biggest downfall. He can’t seem to stay out of the niggle injury status, that means he either skips a big boy race or races “when he shouldn’t” (pto Canada?)?

And so he builds back up and looks “great” in smaller events and so the hype train will build back up. He’s gotta put it together when it counts now. Maybe he’s turned the corner, I have no clue. I hope he has because it will make for much better racing.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Pretty accurate.

I don't think he is dumb, but he does races dumb many times. At PTO Canadian, he was pushing too hard as whenever Laidlow would go to the front, he would keep a very sketchy "20 m" distance behind. I think the refs were generous not to give him a warning or penalty. Then of course he hit the wall on the run just like Daytona. He keeps trying to outbike everyone and it does not seem to work. On the other hand, I don't like the guy as he has done some really dirty stuff when racing, but I admit he makes the races exciting by hammering off the front.

After a 15-minute delay to the planned start time, the Men’s Pro race got underway with the 1.9km, two-lap swim in the Prince of Wales dock, the same venue that hosted Saturday’s Volvo World Triathlon Para Series races.

With PTO Canadian Open bronze medallist, Aaron Royle out of the race (announced earlier in the week), that further cemented double Olympic champion Alistair Brownlee’s race favourite status.

In normal circumstances, the only debate might be who would join him on the podium, but the way his 2022 has gone to date, that wasn’t quite the absolute certainty it might typically have been. Falling exactly 10 years to the day since that famous gold at London 2012, a sunny Sunday in Swansea would seem an appropriate time to get back to winning ways.

No surprise to see Wales’ Andrew Horsfall-Turner leading the way in the water (22:15), with Brownlee and Tom Bishop right on his heels. They were 45 seconds clear of a chase pack, which included the like of Thomas Davis, Michael Boult (AUS), James Teagle, Antonio Benito-Lopez (ESP), Jack Hutchens, Maurice Clavel (GER), Harry Palmer, Elliot Smales, Liam Lloyd.

We expected Brownlee to break clear on the bike early, and he soon said his goodbyes to Horsfall-Turner and Bishop, and was more than a minute and a half clear inside the first 20 km.

60km in and that advantage was three and half minutes, from what was now a chase group of five – Lloyd, Clavel, Teagle, Benito-Lopez and Bishop.

By the time Brownlee reached the T2 dismount line, his advantage had extended further to 5:39 over home favourite Liam Lloyd. Lloyd had broken clear from the chase group in the closing third of the ride, leaving Bishop, Clavel and Benito-Lopez almost seven minutes down on the pace pace-setting Brownlee. Two disciplines down, could he complete the job and prove once again that form is temporary, class is permanent?

Absolutely he could – and in some style. He maintained sub 1:10 half marathon pace throughout and not surprisingly that saw him put even more distance between himself and the chasing pack.

What’s the quote from 1st top gun?

His ego is writing checks that his body can’t cash

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Fair to not like his racing tactics, but I watched the PTO race never saw him sucking wheel.

Ali has it the injury bug the last few years but has shown in Australia IM and today he has the skills to win a big race.

IF he stops surging away from world class guys at the start of the bike and start of the run.
Needs to learn long course is a steady state with a hard finish on an empty tank not, surge and empty the tank early and run on fumes and pressure to stay out front.

He needs to learn kind of like mark allen , shadow Jan or kristen or gustav, and make it a 5 km run at the end feeling good.

In kona he surged at least 3 x in the first 15 km before the flat.
Nice 70.3 Worlds, right of the bike surges on gustav the first 2 km then slows, stay steady this in not ITU, a 700 watt surge and then a wheel suck doesn't happen in long course.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I think the issue at PTO was when Laidlow took his turn on the front Brownlee wasn’t happy with the pace and was pulling his old ITU tricks of trying to push him on. Especially towards the end of the bike leg they seemed to be dropping time to the chasers behind when Laidlow took the lead, so I got the impression Brownlee was trying to get him to up the pace and ended up getting close on a number of occasions. I would imagine those small surges closing up to Laidlow cost him quite dearly, even without his stomach issues he might have struggled

I really wish this race was being broadcast.

Wurf is also on the start list for Kalmar so it'll be interesting to see how AB approaches the bike leg - it could be a trial run for Kona.

Would have made or a fascinating race dynamic if Wurf didnt already have his KQ.

See I think the stomach issue come from the bike over reach. Sam is the second best biker in Long course behind Magnus. Why chase him, give Sam 90 sec and run him down like the Norwegians did.

Easy to say in hindsight as if Ali did win we would be calling him next level and top pick for kona.

But going in you have to have your bike watt limit paces set to know when I guy is better and will F U up for the run and let that guy risk it not you. 2nd would have been better the 20 th.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Really? I assumed Wurf, Jan and maybe Starky, Long would be the closest behind Ditlev

Starky ? He got out swim , biked and run by they guy we are talking a out in Edmonton.

Sam in his last two ironman raced , held pace with Magnus is Texas and start the run ok. Had issues but also maybe was playing his cards for worlds the next weekend.

Worlds a week later in st.George out biked long, wurf and still ran a sub 3 hour run on that course.

His bike and magnus are top 2 not just because they have the overall bike time but they can still run well after and both are under 25 I think .

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

at the same time johnny seems to have even bigger problems for 70.3 and most people would say he is less arrogant to use your word, than his brother .and i guess it fair to say he wasnt even better than anybody else in his own family .

i have to say i expected him to do better than ali in 70.3 .

If you read the bottom of this article Ali explains how he's been having all kinds of sickness issues he's never had before (but he's not a conspiracy theorist)

https://www.tri247.com/...a-qualification-plan


It's mad how posters on ST can claim Ali overbiked with such certainty like one of the most intelligent athletes in the game who's been racing since a child just couldn't work this out himself!

How many 70.3's has JB done? Did he not just have his 70.3 debut in 2021 according to Outside article that I just quickly googled.

He's mixing it up with ITU and racing ITU really really well (and now injured from crash), so I'm going to reserve judgement a little longer until he's transitioned to LC like AB kinda did (he did have a mini itu comeback to try and get on the MTR for Tokyo). AB has what nearly 5 years of mostly 70.3 results to judge on, JB has what a small handful of 70.3 results if that?

(I'm not really sure what the point of bringing JB into the conversation for?)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

A more interesting quote was basically how he wanted to execute his race:

I kind of wanted to do everything at a couple of percent easier than I would do normally, just to be safe and execute a solid race.


Can he take that tactic to Kona on the biggest stage? The crazy thing is, he's still one of the best in the sports, he's gotta let the others make the stupid decisions, because he's got the goods to be there in the end. He just can't keep handicapping himself (whether being sick / racing questionable tactics / injury issues).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

With Jonnys pedigree he really should have done a lot better in the couple of 70.3s he's done, Jonnys had his own issues though since Cozumel.

Again I’m not sure why JB is being brought up. Your making comparisons of an athlete with 5 years worth of LC events vs someone w 2 LC starts?

Why did this get brought up to begin with? What point is being made in regards to my specific comments about AB?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Lionel is advising him on race tactics.

Agreed. He is not a relevant player in the conversation.

Ditlev is stronger on the bike than Wurf?

The crazy thing is AB doesn't "need" to take chances. He's already going to be at the front of the bike coming into T2. He's there on the run as well. Why take chances on the bike, when you've already cut the race down to a marathon run as the decider.

But again I think injury / fitness status is the biggest factor into his race day tactics more than anything.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This Horsfall Turner must be a hell of a swimmer. Looks like he was national level before tri?

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Just watch the races he does massive surges that you just don't do in an ironman. Kona 2019 the first 15 km of the bike he did 3 massive surges. Up Palani hill he was killing it out of the saddle looking back to guys he dropped like " you guys aren't coming???".

also once he got the flat and support he surged back to Tim and Jan. He could have paced until the Wurf train and paced off the back and said time it run sub 2:40.


He told BOB on BWB that in 2018 70.3 worlds he tried to pull away from the group serval times and couldn't which lead to a difficult run effort.

I am not saying he can't bike well but he needs to lower the surges. ITU you surge and hide in the pack. Long course you can't do that

Everyone has bad races of course, but he has mad it harder then it needs to be in a few big ones.

---

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

For Starky you pick one bad race? He has tons of course records. I know he isn't a strong runner, but that wasn't your original claim. If you had said bike-run and under 25 years old (as you are saying now, but thats oddly specific) then maybe.

He is over. He was the top flat course biker 2011-2018.

Get new info.

Also like a said you bike split alone does mean you are the best biker. If the effort removes the run then you just overbiked.

Notice the other front pack swimmers didn't chase sam in Edmonton. Ali could have rode like royal and got $$$$$ paid

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Ok then remove starky and there are still 3 other guys in my list. I'm not hung up on saying Starky is stronger than Sam on a specific day and course.

If we want to say best bike-run combo we can add a few more athletes to the mix.

Sam is super impressive. Kudos to him for his Edmonton performance. I was just surprised to see someone rank him second to only Ditlev on the bike, that's all.

I’d listened to a Joe Skipper podcast and he said at Ironman UK he took major minutes out of Sam on the run to win it, and he knew he would.

I think the perception was that Sam blew up a lot on the run. Whether that was overbiking or not is open for debate. It seems that is the assumption made about Ali so maybe Sam too.

As for strongest cyclist I don’t know. If the assumption is you are only the strongest if you’re putting it together as part of the whole race then I’m not sure Sam qualifies overall.

both brownlees are of rather similar talent and have done very similar training. so why would you not look at the 2, to look at to similar people while not identical does not hurt i would suggest .

physiological reasons could play into it , johnny has done 3 middle distance races,first in 2020 , and has blown up in all 3 on the run and i think and most people would call him a bit more level headed or less arrogant . i can not think of an great itu athelte that struggled so much to transfer to middle distance in his 3 first attempts and its not just 3 races in a short space , its one in 2020 one 2011 one in 2022.
so both did not really transfer their itu run level into 70.3 .

it can be mental it can physiological, and also it could be that they have worn out their body and mind so much from all the training they have done.

since someone pointed out johnnies cozumel that would fall into the physiological category and the mental category as well , and i guess Alistair had a similar issue once or twice before where he pushed himself over the limit.
in short hard to call it what the issue really is from an outsider point of view.
at the same time the talent is there and you just never rule them out either. which makes every race with them rather interesting.

I think some people on this thread are referring to Sam Laidlow, and some to Sam Long….not sure which the person who originally mentioned ‘Sam’ as the strongest biker meant.

So your timeline is from 2020-2022 for JB that includes training specific to the MTR demands of competition of which he won a gold medal . I’m not going to take much from his performances and I’m not going to suggest he and AB were training to same demands.

It’s very very rare to win big time at itu and LC at the same time. Usually one of the energy systems will suffer.

Add in his “heat issues” post Cozumel and the fact that he still is racing itu extremely well, I think it’s a poor decision to bring him into the discussion.

Eta: so I think looking at it from a coaching standpoint, JB LC career is very much TBD, he hasn’t even “transitioned” to LC fully. So any judgement seems rather invalid while AB has many LC races to make a better judgement.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I don't think there can be any doubt Jonnys performances took a nose dive after Cozumel, he went from an Olympic silver, almost world title away in the same year (if he'd have stepped off that gas a little he still would have been able to walk down that blue carpet)

To struggling to get into the top 5, the pre Cozumel Jonny only showed up to one ITU race since.

I thought longer distance would suit him better than Ali also, but he's struggled and I think this influenced his decision to go for Commonwealth.

bottom line, this alistair chap is pretty good at sports.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I heard the same. Kid is pretty good. ;)

Did I just read above that Sam is top 2 bikers currently for IM? And also that Alistair is not a smart racer?

What are you on people? Alistair is one of the greatest of our sport. And the simpleton from Boulder who goes on Alpes d’Huez with a single ring setup on the other hand has everything to prove. Saying “strongest legs in triathlon” is not only stupid, it’s false. Don’t believe the hype.

I think the broken arm influenced his decision to go to the commonwealth games, if that's what you were referring to. Dunno what you expect from him there.

Of course Brownlee is a smart racer. Besides his effort to win at his debut at Kona, approached with all the confidence of a habitual winner, what other races demonstrate any lack of 'smartness'? I can think of none: here's a link:
https://stats.protriathletes.org/...te/alistair-brownlee
Injuries and illness happen, and by his account the illness experienced this year has been an aberration.
He certainly rode well on Sunday round the Gower - seen twice at Llanrhidian - on a 'white' Team BMC bike built up because his ride is languishing in some airport abroad. And then running strongly on each pass on the Swansea Bay beach path / coast road (for a 69).
Without the tummy trouble I reckon he'd have won Edmonton, with a 2 minute start on Iden.

100% agree on Edmonton.

It almost feels like AB is getting the same unfair treatment here as Lange couple of years ago.

What's not to love about the way AB races? He makes it interesting for people watching, he attacks, takes risks. As the Germans say, he likes to "race in the sun", at the front. But obviously sometimes it fails. Doesn't make him any less smart. I'll take that any day instead of the guys hiding in the pack to secure a top 10 spot.

The Brownlees fail for the same reason that the Brownlees win. Both, but Ali in particular have this innate ability to show no regards for boundaries and to push them on the big days. That is what allows them to get the big results, but also is what ends up with some of the injury/heat/illness issues by pushing those boundaries too far. The learning piece is to be more selective of how and when to push, and where you've got sufficient class to just let others tie their own noose, rather than to plunge the dagger with intense effort...

NOT SAM LONG, sam laidlow.

Biked IM texas - 4:17 bike split hanging with magnus and 8 days before the below.
IM WC utah- second fastest bike split only 20 sec behind Wurf but still ran well post bike effort. 8 th overall
EDMONTON- top 3 bike split and 4 th overall while cramping on the run.

guy is under 25 years of age, I DIDN'T say he is a top runner hence the overall placing .
BUT this year his bike has ever failed him on the big days.
just like magnus as he fine tunes the skills the run will get better but he can bike very well.

ALI is the greatest overall triathlete of all time i skills and ability. Thats what I am pointing out he should could have more wins then we have seen since Rio. 2018 WC 70.3, 2019 WC 70.3 Nice, Kona 2019. PTO Daytona 2021 I think he could have won those if he doesn't always try to be first off the bike.

Lets say he got Jan in 2018, Gustav in 2019, kona a top 3 at his first try. HE would be the overall goat of all time all ready. Yet instead the talk is about race DNF's ect. which will happen the way he races in long course vs short course.

Jan lets guys work for him at the front and it pays off. Ali tries to break them and it hurts him.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

My mistake, and it then makes much more sense :)

When fit and not sick he is (will be) right up there. After Iden ran away from him in Nice, I guess he feels he must make the effort to get into T2 with a gap ahead of Iden and Blummenfelt (half or full). He will expect Lange not to have caught him. He has the running measure of Frodeno (given the latter's injury travails) and might expect to run a few minutes into Ditlev. So the balancing act on the QK is going to be letting Ditlev go but still make time on the Norges.
At St George, if he'd not been too sick to start, we might have seen him ride with the swim FoP front 5. That additional firepower would have meant a larger gap to Wurf, Blummenfelt (and a 'not sick' Iden) and Sanders.
Then run the first quarter with Currie before pressing on to try to stay ahead of Blummenfelt.
Coulda/woulda.
Has to get a Kona start slot first (in Sweden in 11 days).
https://www.trirating.com/...-mpro-only-seedings/

When fit and not sick he is (will be) right up there.

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Still the greatest race I saw was I believe 2013 Kitz when Ali returned from a serious Achilles issue and he just ran around from that world class field.

I'll be curious the longest streak of injury/sick free training he's had in the last 5 years. That more than his race tactics are likely the biggest factor in his race results, of course when you go into a race lacking fitness, race decisions are even more important, etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

His broken arm happened in the lead up to Comm games.

Someone will probably correct me, but 2009 might be the last year he never had a serious injury (the year he went unbeaten)

AB more than any athlete really lost out when ITU went away from the 1 day world championship to the world champion basically being the "series" winner.

I think it also was done that way to basically ensure most of the top talent races the majority of the WTS schedule that was becoming more and more races, and behind the scenes angering some athletes on how full that schedule was becoming.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Maybe in short course. In long course, Jan is spends a lot of time in the front and always puts in a ton of work when others are with him.

So few people remember or are aware of that race, but for me it was one of the best performances in any sport. Not even Javier Gomez could get anywhere near AB on that kind of terrain. He just simply biked and ran away from everyone and made it look easy. When you look at performances like that and how hard that must have been on his body its really not that surprising that he might be more vulnerable to injury these days. AB and JB took a 1 / 2 there in 2012 as well. Shame ITU don't do races like that anymore, but I don't think they work too well on the TV or for the commentators.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

For those who haven't seen it, here's a great short video of that 2013 race, the FoP swim, the ride away and mountain top run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXAywu18bcY Enjoy!

Great video!

I had completely forgotten about Richard Varga. These would have been the days when Varga was training in Leeds and at Otley sailing club with AB and JB. That was a win win relationship for both Richard Varga and the Brownlees. No way Alistair would have been that good in open water without training with somebody better than he was like Varga.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Wow Ali Brownlee didn't 'overbike' even though he completely decimated the field on the bike, it's almost like this dude knows how to measure his efforts!

Damn it I must of referenced the wrong race. The Kitz uphill finish was great there’s a classic pic of one of guys running on the trail and a bull cow is like 4 feet away.

I need to go back to the way back machine. It may have been 2012 year where Ali came back from an Achilles issue and just smoked the field. I still think that was the best single performance I’ve ever seen. Found it

https://triathlon.org/...hlon_kitzbuehel/7812

Ali won by 50 seconds. 50 seconds at that level was a huge ass whoopin. Still thr single greatest race I’ve ever seen. For reference AB won the uphill race *only* by 35s.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

His last two world championships 2018 70.3 and 2019 kona.

He was in the front pack but is smart enough to stay there and not take many turns at the front.

on the run he doesn't start at his fastest so he definitely knows what he is doing #"to win not lead. "

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Analysis of the 2013 hill climb race:

And pretty sure at Nice (his penultimate 'world championships' btw, a year after SA) he rode the flat section after the sweeping descent with Iden and RvB, mostly letting others lead iirc. But Iden (in Vaporflys) then put >2 minutes into Brownlee (Adidas) up and down Promenade des Anglais.
Remember ride at Kona was complicated by a puncture near Hawi and he had to ride back to Frodeno at considerable expenditure of watts.

I was talking about Jan.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

https://www.tri247.com/...art-time-follow-live

I think he's gonna have to have a pretty good day to qualify for Kona. Probably a low 2:40s marathon. Alot of dangerous guys in the field who will take advantage of any slip ups.

A very decent day, at least. Has just run a full 13.1 mile half in 1:09. Thorsten's seedings take into account epic run-walk at Kona.
https://www.trirating.com/...-mpro-only-seedings/

Yeh I took no notice of the seedings due to things being a bit skewed.

Something similar to Swansea over the full distance should do the trick. But he's only really done that once back in 2019 WA.

Well he done it twice now. 7:38:48 - nearly 8 minutes infront of second place - and a 2:40:47 marathon to close it out. The Brownlee train is stoking up. He still has to do it on the big island and it may be next year before he can considering how close Kona is - but he is finally starting to show his class.

Can't wait for next year when an injury free fit Brownlee puts the wannabes in their place. Come on AB!!!!!

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Can't wait for next year when an injury free fit Brownlee puts the wannabes in their place. Come on AB!!!!!

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So what’s the odds of that actually happening *kinda pink*. 20-1 he actually stays “healthy” for that long of a duration?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I don't know the odds, but it would be long.

That said if he turns up and things go right, he could lay down a record. Ali is physiologically so good and mentally so driven I would never count him out.

Well most of his pre-Covid injury woes were down to a recurring lower leg issue which had surgery and took a long time to fix, but it has healed. He missed racing during Covid which probably helped that injury sort itself out. This years woes has been down to illness not serious injuries - and a lot of athletes have been ill this year with Covid and post Covid viruses.

I know what you mean when you say kinda pink - you almost expect him to be at the front in Kona and then pull up 10K from the finish hobbling with his next injury. But he has not given up and neither have I - I want to see him win Kona - and a 7:38:48 with a closing 2:40:47 marathon shows he can.

Happy to have bet with you at 20-1 - he gets to Kona next year injury free and wins it. If he turns up in Kona with an injury or comes second or worse I loose.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Bang on. If he breaks the course record or never performs well is equally possible and I'll enjoy the show.

I want AB to win too. But I'd probably take that bet. It's not like other guys have zero chance if he's injury free. I'd agree next year is his year and not this year as maybe the Norwegians won't be there.

But Ditlev will be, and he'll be a year stronger. I wonder if he will be special.

I said in this very thread I believe, he was going to easily get his KQ and then the hype for Kona will ramp back up.

I will doubt him in Kona specifically. But again I’m talking win, as I just think to often there are *issues* that come up for AB……but that in now say is talking anything away. He’s a GOAT, he doesn’t need Kona for any validation. I just struggle to see him right now putting it together in world class events.

B level events this is his MO to look good and showcase his “potential”. He’s one of the best, so I suggested a month ago he’d do today what he did. We gotta see it in world class field. Maybe he does and maybe he doesn’t. He’s already going to be at the front of the field. Just don’t F it up. Let others F it up. That’s my hangup w him at this point in his LC world class races.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

That’s why I struggle with him. By default he’s one of the best S B R ever. He’s already at the front of fields. Just don’t do anything, make the field come to you. He will win or podium as worse. But again has his race day decisions been affected by where has is fitness wise. Maybe

It seems like sometimes he races as if his style is on the line and just winning isn’t enough. It’s like he takes it personal at times in races.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think Alistair’s best ability, is the ability to suffer like hell and enjoy it! If he’s fit and healthy he can push harder and dig deeper than anyone.

.

You say B list, but how many athletes have gone 7:45 in their 2nd full distance a month after Kona blow up, and then 7:38 in what is their 3rd full distance, easing up on the run.

Thought he did rather better than "looking good" in South Africa and Nice in the 2018 and 2019 70.3 WC 'A' races - albeit 'only' best of the rest after Frodeno and Iden.
In Kona in the front pack throughout the bike, staying away from Iden / Blu and then maintaining that gap on the run. Job jobbed.
https://www.tri247.com/...-2022-results-report

Ditlev?

Yip he did the business today. Now starting to get the hang of these races. Just has to translate that to Kona conditions.

I still think 2:40 is no longer the amazing marathon split it used to be, and there is more work to do on the run. But he may have shut it down today and hasn't exactly had loads of run training recently.

Ali didnt ease up on the run. He couldn't get onto the podium without help :) But he looked super impressive for the first 35k

That’s precisely my point. He’s got the goods. He’s going to be at the front. Just ride smart and it’s pretty much a podium at worse. Let others destroy themselves to catch up. Will it happen?

I

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Wait, you can't say that on ST. Don't you know that here on ST it is an article of faith that only Lionel can "push harder and dig deeper than anyone". :):):)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

You give me a lot of hope! Nothing I want to see more in Triathlon than a fit injury free Alistair 🙏

To me guys like KB, Iden, Frodo, Lange (for a while), Allen, Scott are A list. AB is definitely B list. B listers are guys who have the potential to win when all the big guns are there but almost never do. They blow out great times when the pressure is off and the competition is B level, but they are inconsistent when the competition is strong. Sanders is a classic B lister, as is AB.

A listers consistently dominate the event and one doesn't have to wait for them to finally get their nutrition right, or not be injured, etc., etc. They just get the job done. We keep waiting for the stars to align for AB, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will.

double olympic gold is b list?

Obviously. We were thinking about making him "top of the C list", but after his win in Kalmar he squeezed into the B list.

Had he won a third consecutive Olympics his spot in the B list would have been guaranteed.

If Brownlee was B list this thread would not exist.

Yeah. 2x Olympic golds says he's shiiite. Because nobody else had any interest in winning those.🤔
Do you have Gomez as a D list making-up-the-numbers athlete on that basis ?

Not sure what performance dehancing drugs you are on? Two Olympic golds back to back... That 70.3 worlds in South Africa where they went toe to toe AB Brownlee driving the bike with Frodeno and if not anything else this is what sealed GOAT status for Frodo with me. Took on the Olympic elite at middle ground and outran them in a freakish time. If you don't have AB and Gomez in your a list I want to know if you can share some of what you are on because it must be good...

https://triathlonmagazine.ca/feature/jan-frodeno-wins-2018-70-3-world-championship/#:~:text=On%2C%20Sunday%2C%20September%202nd%2C,champion%20with%20the%20win%20today.

No B list as in AB lately has shown he has the goods in races that don’t really amount to much. His last result in an world champ qualify field was 3-4 years ago? Yet in the same time he’s gone stupid fast times at other events that have softer fields.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If you base it on that how many current racers are A list? How many fields are stacked enough for that criteria?

It’s an interesting point you raise but it’s far from being an indisputable indicator in my opinion.

Since 2019 what are his best results?

What are his results when deep fields have been present? How many. DNS has he had in that same time period?

He has the goods. He’s already going to be at front of race. Now he has to do it. I’m not saying he can’t, I’m saying his results show that *something* has happened since his 70.3 podium with world class fields. Whether DNS or racing when unfit he’s not had a podium in a deep field. I didn’t think that was not understoo?

Nothing I f said is out of left field. His results or lack of results the last 3L+ years proves it. As the other poster said on other page now it’s time to go race well in Kona. By default he’s always a favorite cus of where he is in the race. Now he just has to execute
.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

How many stacked fields has Blu beaten? Or Jan recently? Gustav? The stacked fields don’t exist that often so I’m saying your sample criteria are hard to judge.

I had a quick check of Tri Rating and Ali has just done the fastest race of all time without an asterisk? No contrived tri battle, no downstream swim. Better than Gustav’s Florida and even better than the dubious Texas result.

You can argue the fields aren’t stacked, but as you see with some athletes having that push drives them on and you can’t question Ali’s competitiveness

First his last result in a 'quality' race was Nice, less than 3 years ago (not 3-4).
Second, on your criteria, Frodeno is also relegated to the B Doughtie special 'B' list.
Third, what are these "stupid fast times" of which you speak? Since Kona 2019, in both the IMs A-lister's started and finished (Busselton and Kalmar) he's performed to eponymous standard you'd expect.

Exactly, the sample criteria BD refers to just doesn’t exist in my opinion.

I might be wrong here but going off the trirating website Ali’s Kalmar is the fastest “non asterisk” time ever; no downcurrent, no swim navigation aid, proper course length, no purpose built course etc etc

https://www.tri247.com/...-2022-results-report

Yes you keep referencing his nice race from 3 years ago (you’ve posted the same result countless time) and in the same time he’s had more DNS’s in the same champ fields then his 2 podiums in back to back years. Is that not a valid point? Which is why I half laughed at the comment that AB has a full healthy year ahead for Kona 23. This is AB we are talking about he’s liable to get a run niggle next week than to stay healthy for that time duration. That’s a fair assessment, he’d probably laugh and agree.


Are you ignoring how many times since Nice he’s not races in favoring of only bringing up these great fast race results? Which makes no sense when your talking about an athlete with an injury history that has now tagged AB.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Since Nice he’s had 3 full distance results - Kona, where the puncture changed things, WA with a course record and now Kalmar with a course record (one or the fastest times of all time).

In the half distance he’s pulled up at Daytona, had a solid if unspectacular result at Oceanside returning from an operation, stomach issues at PTO and then smashed a very fast 70.3 on a course with almost 1000m climbing on the bike.

70.3 Worlds was the long term injury, 140.6 worlds this year covid or whatever it was.

The only thing really impacted by the “niggling injury” was his attempt to quali for the Olympics. Sub-7 was a stress reaction.

So in reality he has won 3 out of 4 long course and come 4th or better in most of the half distance races, pulling out of 2 only and finishing one sick.

It’s very comparable to a lot of other top male pros, better than the vast majority of other pros.

So you are acknowledging that he’s basically 50/50 with his results since Nice. Combing all the wins and all the non podiums and DNS’s that’s his record.

We can agree on that yes?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I haven't read anything.

Is everyone arguing that AB will probably never win Kona but if he does, we won't be surprised? Because he is one of the greatest triathletes ever.

Seems like a safe position.

Someone is arguing Ali bottles it in big races, this take is being quite rightly ridiculed!

Yea Kona is smaller than the Olympics. Anyone who defends an Olympic gold is a legend of their sport.

Ali will go down as greater than most if he retired now. But also slowtwich is slanted toward ironman and America. If Sam long got top 5 at Kona one time, he'd still be rated higher than cam brown.

How good of a biker is Svensson?? Ali let him get 47 secs on him on the bike, maybe Ali left his ego at home for this race (if this overbiking theory is true)

He wanted a bunny

Long course. No one debates his short course cred. But people can free to keep holding on to the past if they want.

Put KB, Iden and Frodo (from a year ago) and AB on the line - who do you bet $10k on?

AB would be my last choice.

If you want to broaden A list to guys who can go fast and sometimes have a big race then I guess we can call AB A list - but then was have to add sanders and ditlev and skipper and a bunch of others. Which makes me wonder how far down we go for b list.