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Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [cathulu] [ In reply to ]
 
cathulu wrote:
Who cares. They will pay, maybe not as much as you'd like - but that is the way things work. Look how long it took to sanction Contadope and all the rest. So quit your whining and let it play out. Oh you are so principled. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lance is a fraud, deal with it. How does your principles tolerate that. COGNITIVE DISCONNECT! The fact that anyone would contemplate attending a Lance sponsored series is disgusting. Why would you want to support a bully and a PO$ and have him pollute your sport. Nuts!

Dan Empfield can you look in the mirror, where is your article on the front page that USADA is a farce, and the "reasoned decision" is a pile of $hit? I can't find the article, you must have drafted one up? No?

How can you read any of bdoughtie's posts and infer that he is FOR Lance in any way shape or form?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
 
Problem is I do not believe you have enough of the facts. So stick with the facts. You believe they did the wrong thing. I do not
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [cathulu] [ In reply to ]
 
cathulu wrote:
Oh captain principled. You are obfuscating the USADA reasoned decision on Lance. Your efforts are very obvious and kind of pathetic. You don't have anything so you go after the messengers. Kind of pathetic.

There are quite a few people who are pro lance who attack the process, but BDoughtie has been straightforward in his opinion, he honestly has stated for a while he doesnt like the delay in suspensions. I can respect that view; I believe most of the delay came from Lance's lawsuit, and that with the need to protect the witnesses from Lance's intimidation, I think there are valid reasons this case had delays. I wouldnt expect it regularly.
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
And that's my only objection. Which to me I think becomes louder with the names/suspensions being identified now with active cases still ongoing. That's the head scratcher that I'm not understanding now.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
 
Getting tied up in knots about how Lance went down and not getting to the issues about Lance and what he was up to, discussing the real enablers and corrupters of the sport. Talking up the Lance Tri series in a rational way, almost making it sound palatable. Sounds like a closet fan to me. It is a process, first join the crowd with the indignation, then slowly bend folks the other way through obfuscation and rationalization. Next thing you know we will sign-up with him for the Lance Tri series! Am I close?
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [cathulu] [ In reply to ]
 
rational way

____________

Thank you. Rational discussion of issues in triathlon is how I like to do it. ETA: I want to bust all dopers. I want a sport where I can have athletes toeing the line not evening have to think about wondering if the guy next to them is clean or not. I simply think the entire process has it's flaws, and I'm kinda sickening that some dopers are almost elevated to hero status by our own USADA prosecutors. But if it cleans up the sport or puts enough pressure on Lance to come clean and maybe even breaks all the hurdles that we are facing, than in the end it'll all be good. I just hope that something like this never destroys what I think is a great sport. Unfortunately I think because of the small scale that is triathlon, there is some doping going on with some athletes, and knowing the lack of doping controls that occurs in the sport, it's not really surprising.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Oct 11, 12 20:17
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
 
Yes, a "rational way", how many devious and deplorable things are made palatable. That is how we got ourselves in this whole mess. There was nobody with principle. You need rational, principled people.

Not people speaking from both sides of their face in a "rational way" to obfuscate.
 
Re: A Question Only [mck414] [ In reply to ]
 
Another question that may be digging me further into this (I hope not.):

WTC saw a larger surge in publicity when LA said he wanted to race than they probably have seen in the last 10 years combined. NBC was going to expand coverage and move up the timing. The front page here and on other Tri related sites were all over Superfrog with stories, photos, and features on LA's bike. Some of the big pros were even quoted as saying that racing LA was a big factor in their planning and racing schedules.

My understanding is that WTC is now owned by a VC company. They are not known for getting into business to lose money or identity. If IM races lose age groupers and their fees and valuable publicity at the same time, what do you think the reaction will be?
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [cathulu] [ In reply to ]
 
cathulu wrote:
Yes, a "rational way", how many devious and deplorable things are made palatable. That is how we got ourselves in this whole mess. There was nobody with principle. You need rational, principled people.

Not people speaking from both sides of their face in a "rational way" to obfuscate.

Troll. Pathetic one at that.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
 
Re: A Question Only [Bman925] [ In reply to ]
 
Well natural reaction should be to self evaluate their own series and see how they can provide better services. That would be potentially a huge win win for triathletes.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
 
BDoughtie wrote:
And that's my only objection. Which to me I think becomes louder with the names/suspensions being identified now with active cases still ongoing. That's the head scratcher that I'm not understanding now.

USADA brought charges June 12th. Lance used every possible day to hold off and filed the lawsuit first on 7/9. The lawsuit took 40+ days to end (8/20). So the delay based on just Lance's end was over 2 months. Without the lawsuit we'd have had suspensions and judgements far sooner. Sure it's not ideal that they got to race the end of the season, but how is that different than Contador racing the whole time his suspension was being challenged? It's not the best situation, but they had a deadline to put out the reasoned decision which at that point Lance's case is over and putting out the names of witnesses won't be a significant risk of character attack, because wasting money to attack them won't stop the ban.
 
Re: A Question Only [ In reply to ]
 
Forgive me if this has been asked and answered, but are there any charges against Kristin Armstrong for her complicity (at minimum)...maybe even direct involvement in the USPS doping program? It certainly seemed like she was part of the aiding/abetting...

__________________________

I tweet!

 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
Don't know if this article has been cited or WADA's stance on this but here's an intersting article on their take on it. He says the "didnt fail a test" isnt really a valid case for any athlete with the evidence of so many past dopers never failing a test (cites M. Jones).

http://espn.go.com/...nce-armstrong-doping

World Anti-Doping Agency director-general David Howman said Lance Armstrong pursued what appears to be a systematic doping program for a decade "probably with the knowledge" of people who were charged with detecting drug cheats.
Howman told New Zealand's LiveSport Radio on Friday that Armstrong's repeated claim he never has tested positive for a banned substance could no longer be regarded as proof of his innocence.
"What seems to have happened in this particular scenario is that it went on for many years under the noses of those who were supposed to be detecting it and at times probably with their knowledge," Howman told the New Zealand program from WADA's headquarters in Montreal.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Oct 11, 12 20:32
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [cathulu] [ In reply to ]
 
cathulu wrote:
Getting tied up in knots about how Lance went down and not getting to the issues about Lance and what he was up to, discussing the real enablers and corrupters of the sport. Talking up the Lance Tri series in a rational way, almost making it sound palatable. Sounds like a closet fan to me. It is a process, first join the crowd with the indignation, then slowly bend folks the other way through obfuscation and rationalization. Next thing you know we will sign-up with him for the Lance Tri series! Am I close?

I'm one of the least Lance supportive people on the board (while trying to do it without being confrontational about it). I dont believe for a second BDoughtie is pro lance. We've had public and private discussions on the subject, and his process issue is tied only to what he says it is.
 
Re: A Question Only [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
 
ZackC. wrote:
Forgive me if this has been asked and answered, but are there any charges against Kristin Armstrong for her complicity (at minimum)...maybe even direct involvement in the USPS doping program? It certainly seemed like she was part of the aiding/abetting...

In what capacity was she employed by one of the teams? The only thing the USADA is sanction.
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
 
BDoughtie wrote:
Don't know if this article has been cited or WADA's stance on this but here's an intersting article on their take on it. He says the "didnt fail a test" isnt really a valid case for any athlete with the evidence of so many past dopers never failing a test (cites M. Jones).

http://espn.go.com/...nce-armstrong-doping

World Anti-Doping Agency director-general David Howman said Lance Armstrong pursued what appears to be a systematic doping program for a decade "probably with the knowledge" of people who were charged with detecting drug cheats.
Howman told New Zealand's LiveSport Radio on Friday that Armstrong's repeated claim he never has tested positive for a banned substance could no longer be regarded as proof of his innocence.
"What seems to have happened in this particular scenario is that it went on for many years under the noses of those who were supposed to be detecting it and at times probably with their knowledge," Howman told the New Zealand program from WADA's headquarters in Montreal.

Especially because the test that would have caught him in 2009 was never performed. Taking blood samples for the portfolio doesn't do anything if the portfolio isn't put in front of the passport committee. So it's not that he didn't fail the test, UCI didn't make him take it. Had it been presented, there are now FOUR members of the UCI passport committee that would have flagged it as a doping violation. He would have been sanctioned for blood doping.
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
The espn article that I linked, am I reading that WADA seemd to just throw whoever oversee's the testing under the bus (seemed to suggest that the testing even knew some of the doping that was going on)? So if that's the case, and this is something I'm still confused about. But who in the hell actually is the official overseer of the doping controls in cycling. Is it UCI, is it the national federation and UCI is hands off until a positive?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
 
Yes the process has flaws, what process does not? There is no universal justice, that is very clear, there is only the justice of men. However, I don't think anybody was raised to hero status. I think that most people recognize that the "dopers" as you call them are taking a big hit themselves. No one wins but every body gains in the end for clean sport, if the focus is placed on the right places, like the enablers.

I think your focus on what happens to some of the witnesses when the process hasn't fully played out is a waste of bandwidth and it raises my antenna.
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [cathulu] [ In reply to ]
 
It can raise your antenna, but if you want to make accusations about me from how you percieve me, I'd appreciate if you had enough respect to tell me who you are. Whether in private or in here, if you are going to call me a closest Lance fan, or say I'm barking up the wrong tree on this investigation, I'd say that's only fair.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
 
BDoughtie wrote:
The espn article that I linked, am I reading that WADA seemd to just throw whoever oversee's the testing under the bus (seemed to suggest that the testing even knew some of the doping that was going on)? So if that's the case, and this is something I'm still confused about. But who in the hell actually is the official overseer of the doping controls in cycling. Is it UCI, is it the national federation and UCI is hands off until a positive?


So, it depends.

For races where UCI is responsible for testing, even if they contract it out, they're responsible for the results management (results management is who decides what happens with a positive test result)
For races where the NADA is responsible for testing, they get the results management
Same applies for IOC, or NGO (say USA Cycling as an example)


This is why USADA had access to some samples, but not all samples. many of the tests that appeared in Lances 2009 passport USADA wasnt allowed to retest because Lance wouldnt allow UCI to turn them over.


Now, let's say you get a positive; your organization decides what to do. You're supposed to follow the WADA code, but as an example UCI admits to still having passport violations for 2010 that havent been prosecuted. Only your organization and the lab know, and unless the lab leaks, you could squelch it until the press finds out. UCI held Contadors positive from the tour for 2 months until a reporter found out.


That was a big part of the Lance case, Lance's team relied on UCI as the organization with results management for Lance, because whatever organization learns of a violation, they have jurisdiction. So Lance was fighting that UCI had jurisdiction, but USADA was able to prove it's case started sooner, or rather, they will be if put in front of CAS. There wasn't anything in their timeline that Judge Sparks took issue with.

This changed somewhat recently when WADA took over the passport management and their APU in switzerland is now responsible for all passport management. I dont know exactly how it works, my assumption is whoever has results management for a race (for example UCI) gets them from the lab and sends them to WADA APU. My hope is that it doesnt go to that middle step and goes straight from lab to WADA APU, but I havent seen that defined either way.

One thing that bothers me, I think UCI should never have results management, neither should NGOs. NGOs should always contract to NADAs for testing and results management, so the NADA doesnt pay for the testing but is responsible for everything. This makes clean sport a priority over the apperance of clean sport.
Last edited by: pick6: Oct 11, 12 20:55
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
You're supposed to follow the WADA code, but as an example UCI admits to still having passport violations for 2010 that havent been prosecuted.

____________

Tear down the entire pro cycling circuit and start over. Wasnt there some cycling series that was being pushed by Vaughters or something like that?


------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
 
BDoughtie wrote:
You're supposed to follow the WADA code, but as an example UCI admits to still having passport violations for 2010 that havent been prosecuted.

____________

Tear down the entire pro cycling circuit and start over. Wasnt there some cycling series that was being pushed by Vaughters or something like that?


Yeah but the breakaway league also involve bruyneel; a neccesary evil in JVs mind I'm assuming because JB has the big money sponsors; and that's the only way the breakaway league would have worked.

We're far more likely to see IOC step in and replace UCI as the cycling body. Maybe we'll get lucky and in the next election the existing management of UCI will get a clean sweep and folks who care about clean sport will be put in charge of UCI, but I dont count on that.

FYI Pat McQuaid head of UCI, who was a cyclist himself received a lifetime ban from the Olympics for racing in apartheid era south africa, is doing everything he can to suck up because he wants desperately to get back in olympic good graces, he's lost an election in May to be on the IOC executive committee though he is still an IOC member. Im hopefully this issue brings pressure from IOC, but if it had been announced pre olympics this year i think it would have done more
Last edited by: pick6: Oct 11, 12 21:04
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
 
A bit of history from the web:

The Tour de France scandal highlighted the need for an independent international agency, which would set unified standards for anti-doping work and coordinate the efforts of sports organizations and public authorities. The IOC took the initiative and convened the First World Conference on Doping in Sport in Lausanne in February 1999. Following the proposal of the Conference, the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) was established on November 10, 1999.

Afterwards, in the US

In October 1999, the USOC created the USADA to begin operation in October 2000. USADA's status and alleged independence from the USOC contrasts the norm in the United States in which most professional sport organizations (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL) manage the anti-doping aspects of their sports. As a result of USADA's ongoing multi-year contracts with the USOC and the sport national governing bodies (USA Track & Field, USA Cycling, USA Swimming, US Soccer, etc.) the agency is responsible for managing the anti-doping programs including testing and results management for each sport's athletes and events throughout the year. Despite its name and status as the country's official anti doping organization, USADA is a private organization and not subject to government oversight.

USADA is responsible for implementation of the World Anti-Doping Code in the United States.

In France, the USADA equivalent is AFLD.

USADA is responsible and they have banned Armstrong. I think in theory USOC has to enforce the ban. Just like the canadian cycling federation said they were going to uphold the ban on Barry.

UCI said they may appeal to CAS but I don't think they will - it is bad for them and I hope the leadership is renewed to say the least. Armstrong has said he is done fighting but is still pushing hard on the PR campaign.
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [cathulu] [ In reply to ]
 
cathulu wrote:
A bit of history from the web:

The Tour de France scandal highlighted the need for an independent international agency, which would set unified standards for anti-doping work and coordinate the efforts of sports organizations and public authorities. The IOC took the initiative and convened the First World Conference on Doping in Sport in Lausanne in February 1999. Following the proposal of the Conference, the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) was established on November 10, 1999.

Afterwards, in the US

In October 1999, the USOC created the USADA to begin operation in October 2000. USADA's status and alleged independence from the USOC contrasts the norm in the United States in which most professional sport organizations (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL) manage the anti-doping aspects of their sports. As a result of USADA's ongoing multi-year contracts with the USOC and the sport national governing bodies (USA Track & Field, USA Cycling, USA Swimming, US Soccer, etc.) the agency is responsible for managing the anti-doping programs including testing and results management for each sport's athletes and events throughout the year. Despite its name and status as the country's official anti doping organization, USADA is a private organization and not subject to government oversight.

USADA is responsible for implementation of the World Anti-Doping Code in the United States.

In France, the USADA equivalent is AFLD.

USADA is responsible and they have banned Armstrong. I think in theory USOC has to enforce the ban. Just like the canadian cycling federation said they were going to uphold the ban on Barry.

UCI said they may appeal to CAS but I don't think they will - it is bad for them and I hope the leadership is renewed to say the least. Armstrong has said he is done fighting but is still pushing hard on the PR campaign.

In general thats true, but in races outside the US the UCI often has results management for races on the ProTour calendar. Most of lances tests in his career were performed by the UCI which is in part why there is so much difficulty in getting positive tests results. UCI benefits from the appearance of clean racing, not actual clean racing.
 
Re: Daniel Coyle tweet [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
I think we're just kinda stuck with what we have. It's going to take probaly 10-15 years of "clean" riders cycling through their entire careers before cycling every can get seriously cleaned up. So essentially the generation of riders who race an entire career through the bio passport, will have the chance to take over leadership roles on teams and maybe even big wig cycling positions, then we can really see if the sport is clean. Obviously doping will always be an issue, but I think with the bio passport, atleast it's going in the right direction. I think they just need to cycle out the old guard and cycle in some new blood, and that'll just take time.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
 

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