But the issue is, that the data I have shows I have a 10% great power, in aero on 145's and 150's compared to 175's and 170's. I am 60mm's now down on the bars.
AND, I proved I could climb super big long hills just as fast on the 150's compared to 175's.

So am confused, are you saying I should ignore these data points? AND again, I am seeking to understand!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wrong. This is directly from Dave's data (apologies for the formatting):



Not shown here is that the 11/10 test was done with a 53/39 setup where all the others are done with 50/34 (dave's Free Gears). Let's throw that datapoint out.

So on the 26th Dave did 1.72 watts per beat on 175's and he did 1.73 watts per beat on 150's, two weeks before. Three days after he only managed 1.64 watts per beat on 150's. My conclusion there, based on the available data is: Too much variance to draw any statistically relevant conclusion, OR that 175's are likely just as good as the 150's, given the inevitable day to day variability.

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Less is more.

I am not 100% wrong, but will just leave it like that since I know first hand about this. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Honest question, do my TT tests the last week showing 10% more power on 145's and 150's compared to 170 and 175 mean nothing? Again, honest question since this stuff is all over my head.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

IF that data is correct, then the most likely culprit is your position, NOT an inherent power producing advantage of the shorter cranks. Your upper hip angle is likely too pinched with the longer cranks, and the shorter cranks open you up. Depending on how tight those old hips of yours are, 150-155 could be ok, whereas there is not a chance in hell you were optimized on the 200s. But you would have to possess extremely tight hips to need cranks that short, and then the concern becomes the height of the "system" from the ground effecting your aerodynamics and stability. Have you posted any photos or video? I am curious to see what position we are discussing.

You’re so remarkably full of crap that it’s really amazing. Explain to me how I didn’t just prove you wrong that the only way you can be banned is by IP address? If that was true I could easily log into the other account because I’m now in a different state, therefor the user ID is disabled, it’s not an IP issue.

If you know first hand please explain how my first hand situation is wrong. Love to hear that. But like someone else said if Frank isn’t banned just have him log in and post. But he can’t, so you have to be his mouth peice for him.

To me, they don't mean as much as you want them to. About half your data is made ambiguous by riding with power cranks enabled. Another half of the remainder is then made ambiguous by whether or not it's your first or second effort of the day. Then, the first three records note a 50/16 gear ratio and the others 50/14, and on top of that you're changing the bar height on a daily basis. Lastly, you're investigating a heart rate relationship, which is known to be variable by several BPM on a daily basis regardless of what else is going on. Getting good data is hard at any time, but you can make it easier when you don't change anything except for the ONE thing you are investigating.

If I was doing this test I would do a week of daily A/B/A/B tests. On one day, do the long cranks first, on the next day do the short cranks first. Do not change the bar heights. Do not change your seat adjustment other than the 25mm difference. Only go between the two crank lengths you're investigation. Only do tests with locked cranks. Do all rides exclusively and completely in aero. Do a proper zero calibration on the Velotron every day.

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Less is more.

Again, I just present the data, and will let the experts comment.

I have not done a video since the ones I did when I first got my fit. Will try to get something again so folks can rip me apart again. :)

Yep, looking back, the 200's really hurt me, but has taken me a long time to let go of the but you get leverage. Until I tested on my martis course, with cranks from 200, 175 and 150 in a controlled way, I just did not think 150's could be so positive. And now, I am trying to keep a totally open mind as to when is too short, too short. Letting frank, and ST, help me with the data. I again do not understand the why, but I sure cannot write off the 10% power difference between 175 and 150 let alone 145. I keep trying this stuff saying Nah, the 175's will be the fastest on Martis. They have not in multiple tries. I keep saying the 175's will give more power on my 5 mile TT loop, again, nope the 150 and now 145's had 10% more power. So trust me, I continue to shake my head but I have committed to following this all the way through. Meaning, I should be able to prove with data that at some point things get worse as I get shorter. Whether my 5 mile TT test, or martis. We are working on this.

Then we will go back and run the fixed watt test, with a better fit on the bars, and test with more watts fixed, 220, and see what happens. As Frank stated, which I am not happy with, but understand, we need to find where I break. Makes sense, just going to hurt.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

As I said, believe what you want. You are 100% correct.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

When you are as tall as you are, and you make that much more power on that short of a crank arm, it is time to start including a visual of the fit in the data set. I'll trade you bike fit video for HR.

Assuming I log 100% accurate, which I have made mistakes, I am doing 14 since I wanted to get near 70 rpm and be able to survive. I found if I went to a 50/12, the rpm I could try and push went below 70 and the watts went way up, I could not do. But at 50/14, I spin around 75 rpm. Again, the more data I get, the more we can see if there is a trend.
We are not looking at HR at all anymore at the moment.

I am switching between long or short, where I start, each day as the data shows. We have yet to settle in on what crank lengths yet, since we are still trying to find where I break. You sound like you know when short is too short. I have yet to see data that lets me agree with you. That is why Frank is sending me out an adapter so I can try 140 and 135 and see what happens. I will not even guess so I have been wrong to this point.

I can spin PC's just like regular cranks, so for me, makes no difference. But, I did not a good amount of the tests locked. Even now, only the 150's on one test are PC mode. The other bike they are locked. So, would you expect the PC bike or locked bike to give greater power?

The velotron NEVER needs to be calibrated. It is always 100% the same.

Now I do try to calibrate myself the same each day, which is why I start with a 160-300 watt, 10 watt ramp per minute, then 5 minutes of 150 spin. This always gives me the exact same 20 minute warmup before I go into test mode.

I guess I am still out to lunch, but am listening to your inputs. I am doing more aero now and am concerned about can my back take it!! I still do not see what an A/B/A/B test would give me. And I just only have so much time I can do with testing, and still deal with the rest of my real life. Lets have Frank comment on this since over my head, again. :)

Thanks for the questions. Please keep asking since I am asking also. So, what do you think the results will be when I try 140 and 135 crank length?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just trying to figure out how to do this, since the VT's I am using are in the middle of the 4. When I get another set of powercranks to put on, I will install on the outside VT so it would then be easy to take more video. This work? Again, I AM listening to inputs. I do feel many are trying to help!! Just do not know how many more times I can say this.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I just found the one guy on Strava. I could not for the life of me log THAT many miles indoors on any kind of trainer living in CA with the weather they have for any purpose like cranks or even an IM race. And do soooooo many treadmill miles and miles on the same route.

I'd shoot myself in the face.

Why are there literally like no outdoor rides?

Also tons of seeming manual entries with no power and no HR. There are velotron rides with data from Strava users. Why not this one?

A super expensive velotron but no watch or bike computer/pm/hrm data? I'm a schmuck nobody, but I've got data that says I'm a schmuck nobody.

I'm done reading this.......

If you want an answer you need to normalize the position precisely between trials. Everything, including gearing, saddle, extension shape... everything. So you are using more than one velotron for this? At this point I really think you have enough information to make a choice, and own it, IF you can isolate the stuff that really matters. If you can find it in your heart to ditch one metric, it should really be the HR strap. Power matters, how much drop you can ride and still make that power matters, your preferred cadence when making that power at that drop could be an interesting metric. Anything else is just muddying the waters.

I'm gonna do my best to get you through this.

You really need to stick with one week of one and one week of another. Limit changes.

Comparing versus a year prior is ridiculous. I have varied so many watts of ftp up and down during that time. Meaningless. Really.


Also, lower hr versus cadence at same power is chasing something that isn't real and isn't likely a benefit. I know my HR will be way lower at same power at 60 rpm than 100, but that's not meaning I am going to race better.

Yes, I am using different VT's since it is easy to have setups ready that I can use. Also, when things break, I can keep testing.

Frank is my coach in this. I assume if a person has a coach you do not tell them what to do? Again, I am not! using the HR to do anything in my training. Never used on the bike and never for the run. I collect since Frank wanted, and I still think interesting data since it got me to focus on lower RPM let alone Frank says the data supports doing this. Again, I am not questions his process or methods.

So we are now trying to see how much drop in aero I can do, hold power, and keep my back in one piece. We just started this last week which is why I have been dropping 10cm per day. I have no idea how low an old guy like me with a bad back should see what he can do. Any thoughts on this?

I am finding with the lower cadence, I feel I can push more power for longer. Cannot prove, other than my best times on Martis now have been with a focus on lower cadence, but we are not at the point for cadence. Maybe it should be 80. We continue to test and collect data.

Again, thanks for the inputs.

Will let Frank answer some of this. Am trying to do my best to minimize stuff that changes. But, as much as I might not like it, I have yet to find anything negative about
the 150 cranks. And since this is a 50cm change from what I have ridden for years, and have 1300 bucks on cranks in my garage, mentally am still trying to get my head around this kind of change.

But what is nice, I hope, is when I do start racing, I will have some data behind why I am trying what I am . Then if things to not work, we can hopefully look at the data, and more testing to see what we missed.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Once you get things close to dialed, are you going to give it a whirl outside? Folsom South Canal? If so, I'll ride over and yell encouraging words at you.

Yes, very few folks could do as much indoor stuff that I do. I ride the trainer 7 days a week, all year long. (I watch a lot of movies

Why do not ride outside? I have been hit by a car in a race. I have had front tires blow out. I have been caught in hail storms. I have had many close calls. So I train on the trainer to be safe!!!!!!! And, I can do it each morning at 5 am, no matter what the outside stuff is. Does not work for most, but does for me.

I run the exact some route outside, year in and year out. Pretty boring. And the same treadmill pattern. Again, pretty boring.

Nope, I have never ridden worried about power. For years, I spin 3 days a week recover. I rode 3 days a week fixed intervals at 230 watts at 10 minute efforts. And then once a week martis for time. Have never cared about the power numbers. Probably was a mistake, but what I have done is done, right or wrong.

I see no reason to need a PM or HRM for my bike or run. When I race, I just go as fast as I can, and seem to have done okay. As some have written on ST in the past, they got tired of the gadgets controlling them and got rid of them. Well, I feel the same. My success is being, so far, able to stay healthy, and train all year long. This beats anything else. Plus, get lots of sleep.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think if you look, over time, what Frank has me doing, he agrees with you.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks for ruining my evening.

This thread has me so confused I’m at the point where I think yes, that 10% more in power means nothing. At least no speed improvement. My complete unsophisticated analysis of the data would say that you appear to be riding the same gearing and the same cadence which will result in the same speed (not a math expert but I think this is fact - someone correct me if I am wrong). Whatsmore you’re doing it at essentially the same heart rate and RPE (I think you’be said that about RPE but maybe I am misquoting). The only thing that is different is that it is taking you more watts to produce that cadence/heart rate/speed with a shorter crank. So shorter cranks are less efficient in terms of the watts required to maintain speed (you are generating more of them, but you are turning the same gearing at the same cadence).

Additionally this analysis excludes the “un-aero” impact of shorter cranks (higher less aero position). As a result in the real world the shorter cranks will result in a lower speed even though the indoor speed is the same and is requiring/is generating more watts.

So...I guess I’ve now talked myself into thinking the additional 10 watts actually does mean nothing??? I’m so very confused. The answer is probably in one of the 100’s of posts before this one so apologies if it went over my head.

Big Endian wrote: "My point is that having a high proportion of recovery rides in your immediate history puts you in a position where if you start to do consistent harder efforts, irrespective of how you do them, you will likely pick up fitness. That is going to show up in your data as improved power vs. heart rate or vs. RPE. This can easily confound the result you and Frank are trying to establish.”

There are many ways to skin a cat. One of my pros, Petr Vabrousek has determined the best way for him to maximize his income is to race a LOT. He races pretty much every weekend and usually long course. ALL of his training rides are recovery rides. He only goes hard in races. He has been pretty successful. That seems to be the approach of Dave also.
Frank Day

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I really only like to ride outside for a race. How about joining me for the first of the season, wolfs 3 bears duathlon. Nice killer hills of the bike which should give me a good early first test on how this bike fitting is going.

Thanks for the offer. Want to come up to my place and you can try some different bike fits with setups and see how your power goes. You could even try the terrible powercranks if you wanted.

We could even, I think, ride the Martis bike course together and see how we do.

http://wolfpackevents.com/calendar/166

My current race schedule possiblities is here.

http://www.h2ofun.net/indextriathlon2018.htm

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Duathlon means running and running sounds terrible :) Only time I'll hit the 3 bears is for the Berkeley Hills RR and the only time I get up your way is for team rides out of Nevada City. Will keep an eye out for a future opportunity to ride.

The testing I am doing now, I am pushing hard. Trying to see how much power I can push and stay around 70 rpm. I never look at HR. I have had to go to 75 rpm ish since I cannot push at 70 and hold the watts. As my power goes up, the times are faster, but I do not focus on time. Since I am trying to see how low we can get the bars before I have issues, this is a current main focus for this round of testing. Yes, I am pushing, for me, at a hard RPE which probably is why my HR has been going up. I am trying harder. :(

will let Frank comment on your other thoughts, since over my head.

Personally, for my short course racing, for this old guy, aero is not something I worry about at all. I just need to get off the bike and be able to run.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep