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Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best
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The best in aero anyway... by a healthy margin. I've not seen a cross-section of this rim but from the description it sounds like a big fat oval... ie similar to the Zipp Firecrest concept. It seems like a very unaero shape to me... but I guess not. The other funny thing is that Zipp and Hed have been at the top of the aero game for many years with their toroidal rim shapes, and now that the patent on that has run out they are making a completely different shape... that is even better. I'm impressed.

They tested the wheels with a 21mm Corsa CX... which makes the results even more surprising, since the Hed is the only one designed for wider tires. They did a sweep from 25 down to zero yaw, and the Hed was the only rim to have flow attachment at 15 deg... which resulted in a drag of only ~30g, compared to 150-200g for all the others. At 10 degrees things tighten up a bit, but the Stinger is still the best... and it's the best at every angle from 0-20.

Wheel, Drag @ 10 deg yaw (front wheel, 30mph)

Vision Trimax Ultimate, 175g
Cole T85 Lite, 160g
Easton EC90 TT, 145g
Bontrager Aeolus 9, 120g
Zipp 808, 110g
Hed Stinger 9, 85g

I see that Zipp has a new Firecrest 808, but this one was the old model.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I guess they are the fastest without testing zipps fastest wheel? Why wouldn't they use the 1080 instead of the 808
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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All the wheels in the test were of similar dimensions. The 1080 wouldn't be of similar dimensions.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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All the wheels in the test were of similar dimensions. The 1080 wouldn't be of similar dimensions.

This.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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the Stinger is 9mm deeper then the 808

Link to the test results??
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Actually in the final assessment, they scored Zipp 2.8 and Hed 2.9 - giving Zipp a slight win.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [DC Pattie] [ In reply to ]
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Where can I find all this info?

And does a lower score equal better or worse? 2.8 what?

How can the Stinger be faster over all yaw angles from 0 to 20 and not be better?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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Link to this so called 'test'?

Did they test slower speeds? 20-25 MPH?

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [tehbry] [ In reply to ]
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The test and results were just published in the recent Velonews that came out a few days ago. I dont think the results are up on their site though.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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ah, ok,. Well I'll have to wait till they are online somewhere. Can't get that mag in my country.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [tehbry] [ In reply to ]
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"Did they test slower speeds? 20-25 MPH?"

Why is it important? The effects are known and predictable enough to extrapolate the values for lower speeds from the standard 30mph wind tunnel speed. The equation(s) are fairly straightforward.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [DC Pattie] [ In reply to ]
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I would really like to understand why Zipp 808 got a better score. What else was used in the comparison. It could not have been price. Bearings? If you use FR I would think they would be even.

I assume the Stinger was the 09 - 10 version. I don't believe there is a new one with a new shape.
Last edited by: bartturner: Jul 29, 10 6:40
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. I haven't done enough research to extrapolate the data myself, thus I was curious.

Just because a wheel is the fastest at 30mph and 15* means that it is also the fastest at 20mph and 15*?

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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It is interesting that on the HED web site they indicate the Stinger 9 was designed for optimal aerodynamics with a 23mm tire. They go on to say the warranty will be voided if you use anything less than a 23.

Yet in this test a 21mm tire was used. In a post earlier this year HED indicated the test results on their web site were done with a 21mm tire.

Something is up with this. Would be interesting to see test results with a tire that does not void the warranty.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [tehbry] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Fair enough. I haven't done enough research to extrapolate the data myself, thus I was curious.

Just because a wheel is the fastest at 30mph and 15* means that it is also the fastest at 20mph and 15*?
Yes. This is because of how yaw angle is derived. Remember that that 30mph and 15* doesn't mean that the wind is coming at you at 30 mph and 15*. It means that you're doing 30 mph, and that the wind is coming at you at somewhat more than 15*, but the two vectors add up to 15*.

http://www.hedcycling.com/...y/yaw_calculator.asp

According to this, at 30 mph (which is fast), a 10 mph wind has to be blowing at 55* from central to show as 15* yaw. However, at 20 mph, that wind only has to be 7.5 mph to have the same yaw angle. So, here, yaw is much more important than speed.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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Link to the test results??

Latest issue of the magazine.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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I would really like to understand why Zipp 808 got a better score.

They ranked by the following criteria with no regard for absolute differences... ie if a wheel was first it got 1 point and last got 6 points... even if there was little difference between them. Plus as you can see there are 3 scores for "weight/inertia" which makes this category three times as important as aero to the overall ranking. So the ranking is useless, IMO. For TTs only the aero really matters for these.

Aero
Weight
Front wheel stiffness
Rear wheel stiffness
Front wheel inertia
Rear wheel inertia

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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I assume the Stinger was the 09 - 10 version. I don't believe there is a new one with a new shape.

Beats me... I've not seen one in person or a cross-section of these rims. Anyone? What is the shape like?

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, the Stinger tested was our current version. The one that is on our site


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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All the wheels in the test were of similar dimensions. The 1080 wouldn't be of similar dimensions.

Then you can't really say its the fastest aero wheel. Its jut the fastest wheel between 80-90mm
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [persondude27] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Fair enough. I haven't done enough research to extrapolate the data myself, thus I was curious.

Just because a wheel is the fastest at 30mph and 15* means that it is also the fastest at 20mph and 15*?

Yes. This is because of how yaw angle is derived. Remember that that 30mph and 15* doesn't mean that the wind is coming at you at 30 mph and 15*. It means that you're doing 30 mph, and that the wind is coming at you at somewhat more than 15*, but the two vectors add up to 15*.

Not exactly...testing at 30mph of tunnel speed is the same as when the apparent wind (i.e. the vector sum of the wind) is at 30 mph, not the bicycle ground speed. If you have a 10 mph crosswind and the apparent wind angle (the angle the wind "appears" to be coming from relative to the bike direction) is at 15 deg, then the actual bike speed is only ~22.5 mph.

Go into that yaw calculator and put the wind speed at 10 mph and the direction at 130 deg. Vary the rider speed until the values on the bottom are at ~15 deg and 30 mph. You'll see what I mean.

And to address the other poster's question, within the range of speeds we're talking about, the drag basically scales with the square of the wind velocity, so yeah, the wheel fastest at 30 mph of apparent wind and 15 deg is going to be the fastest at 20 mph of apparent wind speed and 15 deg.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Vince... is the cross-section shown anywhere? If not, can you describe the shape and dimensions?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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The best in aero anyway... by a healthy margin. I've not seen a cross-section of this rim but from the description it sounds like a big fat oval... ie similar to the Zipp Firecrest concept. It seems like a very unaero shape to me...

Perhaps it's the best compromise for an object that is hit by the air from both the tire-side (at the front of the wheel) and the rim-side (at the back of the wheel), as well as at multiple yaw angles?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Apparently so, but it still seems wrong to me. The edge on the 808 is not an ideal leading edge, but I'd think still a good one... and at any rate the trailing edge is most important... and how can a fairly blunt oval make a good trailing edge? At higher yaw I'm less puzzled, but I'd never predict that a fat oval would be better at zero yaw.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I'd never predict that a fat oval would be better at zero yaw.

Maybe that finding is the result of the fact that they started at 25 deg yaw and swept down to 0 deg?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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I could see the direction of the sweep having a significant effect on the stall angle, but not at zero yaw. Do we have other aero tests that show a significant effect from this?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Ron I think these new shapes are designed with the tire as a part of the system whereas the older wheels were designed to fix the air after it hits the tire.. if that makes sense.
And yeah tubulars are the fastest option right now. Yes they may not be the best choice for flat prone iron distance folks...but they are faster. I do love the idea of an 808 firecrest though.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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I would really like to understand why Zipp 808 got a better score. What else was used in the comparison. It could not have been price. Bearings? If you use FR I would think they would be even.

I assume the Stinger was the 09 - 10 version. I don't believe there is a new one with a new shape.

Well, that depends on who you ask. As Vince said, it's the one that is currently on the HED site. However, that is NOT the 2009 wheel and also not the wheel that you have been able to buy for much - if not all - of this year. In March of 2010, Zipp bought the "latest" HED Stinger 9 from one of HED's largest retailer, and it's not the wheel that was tested. And they've struggled to find anyone who has it in stock even now. VN also tested with a 21mm tire - which will VOID the warranty on the Stinger 9 should you actually choose to try and repeat the gains for yourself. And of course, if you are a Specialized rider (or numerous other frames), you are SOL because it won't fit in your frame. And if you ride SRAM, you can't use it because it is incompatible with the brake calipers. And if you use older Shimano brakes, you also can't use it for the same reason. And if you use ZeroGravity, you also can't use it. Or any of a long list of other brake calipers.

It's also worth noting that VeloNews had a production prototype of the new 808 Firecrest on hand - they announce it in that issue, but they would not include it in the test because it isn't for sale. Yet. But I can assure you that it beats the Stinger 9 handily, despite being less deep - by 10%, which also results in less than 10% less sideforce.

But yes, that Stinger 9 can be made very aero...


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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After the recent thread about how hard at least one of the best clinchers was to get on the rim I'm not so sure I'd choose them for a flat prone race.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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in my experience when these impossible tire/rim combos happen, its much less difficult after the tire has been on the rim and used a while

In Reply To:
After the recent thread about how hard at least one of the best clinchers was to get on the rim I'm not so sure I'd choose them for a flat prone race.

Styrrell



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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar - would the upcoming 808 Firecrest not have the same fitment issues as the Stinger 9? Regardless, None of those are an issue for me so I just hope they are available in the next couple of months so I can replace my C2 Jet 90 before IMAZ.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I could see the direction of the sweep having a significant effect on the stall angle, but not at zero yaw.

I was wondering if perhaps they hadn't allowed enough "settling time". If not, then the lower drag at higher yaw angles could carry over to 0 deg of yaw.

Of course, it could also be that some sort of ovoid is good/best even when the wind is always from straight ahead, with what is happening at the back of the wheel making up for what is happening at the front of the wheel.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar - would the upcoming 808 Firecrest not have the same fitment issues as the Stinger 9? Regardless, None of those are an issue for me so I just hope they are available in the next couple of months so I can replace my C2 Jet 90 before IMAZ.

Not sure what "fitment" issues you mean. You will be able to run any tires you want on the 808 Firecrest. The reason 21mm tires void the HED warranty is due to particulars of how their wheels are constructed.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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Speculating on something that isn't available to test yet BUT - might a Firecrest 808 rear be faster then a Hed Jet disc or most other discs?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

It's also worth noting that VeloNews had a production prototype of the new 808 Firecrest on hand...

Would that be a tubular 808 Firecrest, or a CC 808 Firecrest? I only ask since there seems to be some confusion about the 2 individual features ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I had to adjust the brake bolt to get the stinger 9 to fit but it was no big deal. Took almost 10 seconds.

Now I will say I find the entire sidewind thing to be a bit of a farce. I just tested my race setup in a pretty highwind day. (wind kept blowing over my wheels when I was putting them on the bike) I was running a stinger 9 with a jet disc. No issues whatsoever, didn't notice any stall either. In fact I'd be tempted to say that the stinger 9 gave me less issues than my FP60 had in the past.
FWIW I'm 145 and I might have had a different thought if I wasn't running a disc in the back.

Still I'm all about seeing the new 808 firecrest in the windtunnel.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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After the recent thread about how hard at least one of the best clinchers was to get on the rim I'm not so sure I'd choose them for a flat prone race.

To be fair, that difficulty is IME only on the first installation...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

It's also worth noting that VeloNews had a production prototype of the new 808 Firecrest on hand...

Would that be a tubular 808 Firecrest, or a CC 808 Firecrest? I only ask since there seems to be some confusion about the 2 individual features ;-)

For this particular test, it was a tubular 808 Firecrest that was made available, since that was the first one made, as it needed to be made available sooner since that is what was ridden in the TdF by Saxo and Astana.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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I had to adjust the brake bolt to get the stinger 9 to fit but it was no big deal. Took almost 10 seconds.

Are you sure that you have the same Stinger 9 that was tested by VN?

The sidewind thing is not a farce. There are definitely days when I've found a 1080 to be unrideable and an 808 on the same day to be very manageable. That's why I rode an 808 at IMC last year. I found the 1080 to be too much on all of my test rides the week leading up to the race.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So now that's it's more publicly announced than the last time I was pestering you about the 808 Firecrest (Edit: Carbon Clincher not tubular).....any idea on the release timing? I'm curious if they will hit the market before next June.


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Last edited by: Tom3: Jul 29, 10 11:05
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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You CAN USE SRAM RED, Rival or Force brakes with our Stingers ............. I have that setup on 3 bikes and dont have to sand the pads down. Its a simple adjustment

AND YOU CAN get the Stingers to work on a Specialized, we use a double flanged hub that makes the wheel fit narrow rear stays. You just need to tell us that when it gets ordered.


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Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 11:07
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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VN also tested with a 21mm tire - which will VOID the warranty on the Stinger 9 should you actually choose to try and repeat the gains for yourself. And of course, if you are a Specialized rider (or numerous other frames), you are SOL because it won't fit in your frame. And if you ride SRAM, you can't use it because it is incompatible with the brake calipers.

while this is simply supposition on my part, given that the actual rim bed is wider on the HED than the Zipps, my guess is that using a 21 versus a 23 actually narrows the gap between the two wheels. If the wheels were tested with 23's, I wouldn't be surprised if the HED's were farther ahead. Of course, you could compare a Zipp/21 and a HED/23, but then you'd also have to figure in the rolling resistance advantage of the wider tires.

As to your other points, they're simply not true. The Stinger 9's fit both the Transitions and Sram brakes, easily. The only clearance issues are with the Stinger 6's, which are much wider (and do fit Sram brakes with the proper brake pad).

It's fine to be supportive of your sponsors, but your zeal seems to be getting in the way of your objectivity.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I've not ridden a 1080. Just said that the stinger 9 gave me little issue on a very windy day. The extra 18mm may well make a difference.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
VN also tested with a 21mm tire - which will VOID the warranty on the Stinger 9 should you actually choose to try and repeat the gains for yourself. And of course, if you are a Specialized rider (or numerous other frames), you are SOL because it won't fit in your frame. And if you ride SRAM, you can't use it because it is incompatible with the brake calipers.

while this is simply supposition on my part, given that the actual rim bed is wider on the HED than the Zipps, my guess is that using a 21 versus a 23 actually narrows the gap between the two wheels. If the wheels were tested with 23's, I wouldn't be surprised if the HED's were farther ahead. Of course, you could compare a Zipp/21 and a HED/23, but then you'd also have to figure in the rolling resistance advantage of the wider tires.

As to your other points, they're simply not true. The Stinger 9's fit both the Transitions and Sram brakes, easily. The only clearance issues are with the Stinger 6's, which are much wider (and do fit Sram brakes with the proper brake pad).

It's fine to be supportive of your sponsors, but your zeal seems to be getting in the way of your objectivity.

See Vince's reply above. I am not being overzealous. You need to have the wheel built on a different hub to get it fit the Transition. I would think I could be forgiven for not knowing there is a special hub required for certain frames.

As for the tire testing, it's not really so straightforward. Most of the time, when wheels are optimized around a given tire width, a narrower tire is often still faster, just less fast than would be the case with a rim optimized for narrower tires. So it's not like a rim designed for 23mm tires is faster than that same rim with a 21mm tire. It's very hard to get around the "problem" of frontal area. But, regardless, I would agree that the HED *might* be further ahead than if they had done ALL tests with a 23. But if you want to compare Zipp+21 vs. HED+23 then that's a different story. You cannot assume that HED+23 is faster than HED+21, even if the rim was optimized for a wider tire. But the point is really that you cannot run a 21mm on the HEDs because it will void the warranty, and therefore, it would seem that the test results are not really "fair."

Again, for most people, the Stinger 9 that was tested is NOT the same as what most people have bought or even can buy right now. And it definitely wasn't the wheel that was available via retail when VN actually ran the test.

So unless you are SURE you have the same wheel that was tested - which is unlikely given that Vince has already specified that it needs to be built with a narrower flanged hub in order to fit a transition - you can't use your own experiences a "proof" that I am misspeaking or not being objective.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom3] [ In reply to ]
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So now that's it's more publicly announced than the last time I was pestering you about the 808 Firecrest (Edit: Carbon Clincher not tubular).....any idea on the release timing? I'm curious if they will hit the market before next June.

I'm not sure. Keep in mind that it's a bunch of new wheels, so I don't think the release date for all iterations has been set yet.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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We say a 23mm tire for increased impact resistance. The 22mm and lower tires could ..... could ..... be more prone to pinch flats because of the C2 rim causes the tire to spread wider and the edges of the rim will hit the tire and pinch it. The 23mm tire will give the tire enough room to stop that possibility of pinch flatting


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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I've not ridden a 1080. Just said that the stinger 9 gave me little issue on a very windy day. The extra 18mm may well make a difference.

That's fair - and in my experience true. But you specifically said, "Now I will say I find the entire sidewind thing to be a bit of a farce." Now maybe the 808 vs. Stinger 9 is never an issue for you. But let's say you are just able to control an 808. That extra 10% with a Stinger 9 could well be too much. The 808 is easy to handle for me, but for someone smaller, it might be a lot of wheel. So, while side area may not be an issue for you between the 808 & Stinger 9, it's hardly a farce. That 10% is going to matter to some people. Maybe not to you, which is great. But it will definitely matter to some people...


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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It's a tubular tire. I run dugasts rhinos at 20 psi over roots and all sorts of hard things in cyclocross and haven't gotten a pinch flat. I can't even imagine the possibility of a pinch flat on a road tubie pumped up to 120psi.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
See Vince's reply above. I am not being overzealous. You need to have the wheel built on a different hub to get it fit the Transition. I would think I could be forgiven for not knowing there is a special hub required for certain frames.

well, since you were wrong about the brake issue, I just figured you were wrong about this, too! I didn't actually realize there was a hub issue, since the new S9 I used was laced to a PT hub. There's no issue with the rim and clearance.[/reply]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
See Vince's reply above. I am not being overzealous. You need to have the wheel built on a different hub to get it fit the Transition. I would think I could be forgiven for not knowing there is a special hub required for certain frames.

well, since you were wrong about the brake issue, I just figured you were wrong about this, too! I didn't actually realize there was a hub issue, since the new S9 I used was laced to a PT hub. There's no issue with the rim and clearance.
[/reply]
Fair enough. I am getting further clarification on the exact particulars of "cannot" use. I do my best to be objective, and I have a very good relationship - that I do not make a secret of - with Zipp. If there is some way in which they misspoke to me or I misinterpreted a conversation with them, I will obviously correct that. Especially with regards to not fitting certain brakes, it would be foolish to say something that could so easily be proven false - i.e., as you said, it fits your brakes - so I will get clarification.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:


It's also worth noting that VeloNews had a production prototype of the new 808 Firecrest on hand...


Would that be a tubular 808 Firecrest, or a CC 808 Firecrest? I only ask since there seems to be some confusion about the 2 individual features ;-)


For this particular test, it was a tubular 808 Firecrest that was made available, since that was the first one made, as it needed to be made available sooner since that is what was ridden in the TdF by Saxo and Astana.

Damned pros driving which products are produced first again....arghhh ;-)

So...let me get this straight what you're saying about this VN test...apparently the Stinger 9 is some special version that nobody has or can buy, but they refused to test the Firecrest 808 that Zipp gave them because it's not available yet?

Somebody at VN (or Hed) has some 'splainin' to do! What Stinger 9 was it that they tested?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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We say a 23mm tire for increased impact resistance. The 22mm and lower tires could ..... could ..... be more prone to pinch flats because of the C2 rim causes the tire to spread wider and the edges of the rim will hit the tire and pinch it. The 23mm tire will give the tire enough room to stop that possibility of pinch flatting

But, does running a tire narrower than 23 void the warranty as Jordan wrote above?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I believe it says as much on their website. I still run bonty anyway. It's a tt wheel not a choice I'd use for crits.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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But, does running a tire narrower than 23 void the warranty as Jordan wrote above?

Yes.
http://www.hedcycling.com/wheels/stinger9.asp
Quote:
Stinger wheels are designed for 23mm tires. Aerodynamically this is the optimum width. The Hed C2 tire well is most impact resistant with 23mm or larger tires. We do not recommend narrower tires, using a tire less than 23mm will void the warranty.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Puppet] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

But, does running a tire narrower than 23 void the warranty as Jordan wrote above?


Yes.
http://www.hedcycling.com/wheels/stinger9.asp
Quote:
Stinger wheels are designed for 23mm tires. Aerodynamically this is the optimum width. The Hed C2 tire well is most impact resistant with 23mm or larger tires. We do not recommend narrower tires, using a tire less than 23mm will void the warranty.

I guess that means that VN tested the wheel in a configuration that the manufacturer says voids the warranty...what's up with that?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Although the Stinger 90 will be a little deeper than the 808. The fact that it is faster will help in producing lower yaws, in addition the airflow stays attached to a higher yaw. The combination of the 2 could produce a better handling wheel than the 808. Isn't it when the air stalls that we start the violent turbulence which creates poor handling? If the air never stalls then handling should be more than manageable. Competition is good, it helps us get better innovation. With that being said I would also like to know what Stinger 9 was tested. And to my knowledge the 2009 and 2010 stinger are the same except that one uses a 12K weave for the fairing (2009) versus a unidirectional layup (2010). The 2010 fairing is thus therefore lighter. I am rather frustrated though that you can never find this information without directly talking to someone at HED.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [electusunus] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Just want to further correct some misinformation on this thread - I have used a stinger 9 without a problem on SRAM Force, Zero Gravity, and Ultegra 6700 brakes. You really have to open up the calipers, but it works just fine.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I dont know where the confusion came from, sorry if I didnt clarify myself on my post.

The Stinger 9 used in the VN test is the exact same wheel that customers can buy if they ordered one today. There isnt anything special or secret about the Stinger used in the VN tests. The difference between the 09 and the 10 Stinger is the weave. That resulted in some weight savings but the biggest benefit was the increase in stiffness. The 10 Stinger is stiffer than the 09 Stinger.

The 2010 wheel was used in the test.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 14:45
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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no wonder you had to make it stiffer.


Last edited by: SeasonsChange: Jul 29, 10 14:49
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent.
More dirt thrown at Hed Wheels by an athlete sponsored by a competing brand.
Well, of course the NEW Zipp wheels will be better. According to Zipp, that is.
More importantly, for my purposes, Hed Stinger 9s are also $800 cheaper.
Don't you think you have a bit of a bias problem here?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [SurfnRide] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, that is a Zipp wheel. Its had to see but in that picture there are black carbon end caps. We dont use carbon end caps


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 15:02
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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yep, cav runs zipps.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [liquidsystm] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, lol....quite the picture posting fail right there!


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, that is a Zipp wheel.

Based on what...the hub? That just proves that the hub is a Zipp hub.

What about this pic of the rim (the broken one being held up in the foreground)? Does that look like a Zipp or a Hed rim? It doesn't look dimpled...



I thought I read somewhere that Highroad builds their own wheels, mixing and matching rims and hubs...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I have also heard that. Also hear cav run a stinger 6 up front and a zipp in the rear. Best combo of stiffness and aero for him. But I don't think it's HED's fault that the guy rode the end of that race like an ass.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar you came out firing with a bunch of claims about the HED Stinger 9 that are may be misleading and or simply incorrect and now are backtracking and seeking clarification.

Perhaps seek clarification first before trying to publicly turn people away from buying from the biggest competitor of your sponsor.

You look a little foolish and this has been a trend of late - competitor bashing.

You keep claiming you are trying to be objective, well you need to try a little harder. It's not like you can't contact HED if there is anything you are unsure of and I certainly wouldn't think seeking clarification from your mates from Zipp about a competitors wheels qualifies for much.

However, I do believe HED can do a lot better in providing information as to their tests, tyres tested, compatibility etc... They are certainly not off the hook in this regard, it is really hard to tell a lot about their wheels, especially as most people by race wheels by ordering them without seeing them.

So now that we've gottten past that.

It seems the upshot of this particular test is that the HED Stinger 9 is an aerodynamically superior wheel then the Zipp 808 as tested by VN. Does anyone know how the results compare to the charts on the HED website.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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it looks like a Zipp front wheel based on the way the shade of carbon alternates around the wheel..


Last edited by: gibson00: Jul 29, 10 15:45
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Rappstar you came out firing with a bunch of claims about the HED Stinger 9 that are may be misleading and or simply incorrect and now are backtracking and seeking clarification.

I would say it would be much more fair to edit his post with clarification, but its up to him.

It is funny the way when Zipp wheels don't fit frames, it's the frames fault. When a Hed doesn't fit wheels, it's just a sign of their inferiority.

Zipp may have better hubs and lighter wheels but a lot of times people posting on their behalf or their posts themselves come off as though they are trying to overcompensate or something.

One other interesting note is that Vince at Hed chimes in at the forum for a variety of reasons, especially as of late to chat about the tour. The only time you see Josh Poertner or Waldo pop in to a forum is when their guns are blazing about their products.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I see this has turned into a HED and Zipp debate but I was wondering if I can get some understanding about what the numbers are saying about the Easton EC90TT wheel set. I don't really understand all the talk about yaw and wind angle so if somebody could explain it to as if I were a 5 year old, also are those numbers really BIG differences or would a MOPer tell much difference across the board?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, that is a Zipp wheel. Its had to see but in that picture there are black carbon end caps. We dont use carbon end caps


I'd lay money that's a Stinger 6 rim. I've seen other pictures of his bike up close, and he was clearly using a Stinger 6 front.

That said, whatever rim it is, I'd say that's pretty amazing. I think a conventional wheel would have fared much worse in that sort of situation. I'd be taking credit for that rim if I were you! I can't believe that rim didn't shatter.
Last edited by: roady: Jul 29, 10 15:43
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with you about how the wheel held up, impressive. But positive it is a Zipp 404 rim based on the photo I posted above. The carbon layup is clearly a Zipp.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [simpy16] [ In reply to ]
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60 grams is about 30 seconds in a 40k if you're going 25mph, give or take

here is an approximation:
0.1 lbs (50 g) of drag (at 30 mph) = 0.5 s/km = 5 W = 0.005 m^2 CdA = 0.0005 Crr

Yaw is basically the "effective" angle of the wind. So if you take in to account the direction of the rider and the speed; and the direction of the wind and the speed, then you have a net resulting effect of the wind.

The slower the rider, typically the higher the yaw they experience. The faster the rider, the lower the yaw they experience.

The best way to visualize it is with Hed's little calculator:
http://www.hedcycling.com/...y/yaw_calculator.asp

I would recommend putting the rider North at 20-25mph, and then varying the wind direction at 5-10mph in various angles to get a feel for what kind of wind angles happen.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Back wheel Dimples - Front Wheel same carbon wrap as the back but it is a bad angle. Just look at the wrap and reflections. Front is a Zipp

click on the picture to see a bigger shot




-------
HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 16:01
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
60 grams is about 30 seconds in a 40k if you're going 25mph, give or take

here is an approximation:
0.1 lbs (50 g) of drag (at 30 mph) = 0.5 s/km = 5 W = 0.005 m^2 CdA = 0.0005 Crr

Yaw is basically the "effective" angle of the wind. So if you take in to account the direction of the rider and the speed; and the direction of the wind and the speed, then you have a net resulting effect of the wind.

The slower the rider, typically the higher the yaw they experience. The faster the rider, the lower the yaw they experience.

The best way to visualize it is with Hed's little calculator:
http://www.hedcycling.com/...y/yaw_calculator.asp

I would recommend putting the rider North at 20-25mph, and then varying the wind direction at 5-10mph in various angles to get a feel for what kind of wind angles happen.

How does that change if the rider is only riding at, say, 22mph? 20mph? Just wondering which direction the time 'savings' go as the speed slows.
Thanks!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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They also work just fine with TRP brakes.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

How does that change if the rider is only riding at, say, 22mph? 20mph? Just wondering which direction the time 'savings' go as the speed slows.
Thanks!

Time savings in number of seconds saved goes up the slower you go. Aero actually matters more in "time" for a slower athlete than a faster one. However, for the faster athlete, a smaller percentage of gain can make a huge difference, for instance in the TT world championships, where a few grams of drag can be the difference between 1st and 10th.

So basically, if a wheel will save an athlete riding 30mph 45 seconds over a given difference, it will save the athlete riding 20mph more than 45 seconds.

30mph is used in the wind tunnel because it is an accurate pro TT speed, and it has proven to scale to slower speeds very accurately.


---------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Irondicknixon] [ In reply to ]
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Some of the post against Rappstar are absurd.

I own both Zipp and Hed products- and like them both. That said the Velonews test is a bit goofy- testing apples to pears as it were.

Comparing rims of a different depth and width is fraught with danger. If they tested the Zipp 1080 vs the Stinger 9, clearly the 1080 would have won. Deeper is going to win in the HED v Zipp battle.

I can confirm my (shallower) Stingers fit in my Red brakes, but its close. They don't fit Zero Gravity (teammate sold me the Stingers because of this).

Buy from either company, they both make good stuff and test it. Tons of depths and widths too.

Wish they had tested Discs actually, the HED, Zipp Sub 9, Zipp Super 9, the Reynolds and one of the cheapo Renn Discs. That would be been much more interesting IMHO.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [simpy16] [ In reply to ]
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what was reported for the EC90TT?

theres been a lot of manlove for that wheel from a few people, was it part of this test?

In Reply To:
I see this has turned into a HED and Zipp debate but I was wondering if I can get some understanding about what the numbers are saying about the Easton EC90TT wheel set. I don't really understand all the talk about yaw and wind angle so if somebody could explain it to as if I were a 5 year old, also are those numbers really BIG differences or would a MOPer tell much difference across the board?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
what was reported for the EC90TT?

theres been a lot of manlove for that wheel from a few people, was it part of this test?

I sure hope my issue came in the mail today...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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How do you tell if you have a 2009 or 2010 Stinger 9? My number on the side of the wheel is 10DA35XX. The X's are numeric.

I am still confused from this thread. Was the wheel tested the 2010 Stinger 9 or some new Stinger 9?

On the brakes. I have TRP brakes and did have to grind down the Swiss Stop brake pads to fit. The caliper would not open wide enough. This is a front wheel. But once grinded down no problem.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I sure hope the Eeaston wheels sucked ballz or I'm going to have to eat my hat

thank science I do not own a hat


why do you hope they suck?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Agree with you about how the wheel held up, impressive. But positive it is a Zipp 404 rim based on the photo I posted above. The carbon layup is clearly a Zipp.

I don't think any of us plan on laying down 2500W sprints on our tri bikes so what does it really matter? The make of that rim certainly has absolutely ZERO bearing on my wheel choice.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
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Comparing rims of a different depth and width is fraught with danger[/b]. If they tested the Zipp 1080 vs the Stinger 9, clearly the 1080 would have won. Deeper is going to win in the HED v Zipp battle.


Oh really? ........ (/evil grin)


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [simpy16] [ In reply to ]
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oh just a big argument with someone here that is sure they will be awesome and I was sure they would be a bit slower than zipp and hed

i dont REALLY hope they suck

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I sure hope the Eeaston wheels sucked ballz or I'm going to have to eat my hat

thank science I do not own a hat


why do you hope they suck?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Comparing rims of a different depth and width is fraught with danger. If they tested the Zipp 1080 vs the Stinger 9, clearly the 1080 would have won. Deeper is going to win in the HED v Zipp battle.



Oh really? ........ (/evil grin)

a while back there was a report in a German triathlete magazine comparing a bunch of wheels. They tested them in pairs, with a dummy with spinning legs. There was discussion of it here on BTR, and there are some cool graphs posted:

http://www.biketechreview.com/...riathlon-magazin-ger

They went from 0-15 in 2.5 degree increments. People can interpret for themselves. According to these data, to me the 1080's and S9's are a wash. The S9 is lower @ 10 degrees, but then spikes up. The curve is flatter for both the 808 and 1080 past 12.5 degrees
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Rappstar you came out firing with a bunch of claims about the HED Stinger 9 that are may be misleading and or simply incorrect and now are backtracking and seeking clarification.

Perhaps seek clarification first before trying to publicly turn people away from buying from the biggest competitor of your sponsor.

I spoke with the guys at Zipp. The measured the wheel that VN tested with calipers and measured it at 27.85-28.0mm wide in the center of the brake track, which was too wide for the brakes mentioned to accomodate *with new pads,* meaning that either it just plain didn't fit or the clearance was far too tight to allow ANY lateral movement of the wheel (meaning no standing). The ZG brakes won’t even fit on the rim, as they are roughly 27.5 between pads when fully opened. Based off their measurements of that wheel, even with a narrow flange hub, it would not fit the Specialized chainstays.

So perhaps Vince can reply to that claim directly with numbers.

Other that that, every claim I made was absolutely correct:
- VN tested the HED S9 with a 21mm tire, which as several people have pointed out, VOIDS HED's warranty.
"The Hed C2 tire well is most impact resistant with 23mm or larger tires. We do not recommend narrower tires, using a tire less than 23mm will void the warranty."

- The HED S9 will not fit Specialized in several bikes due to width. Vince himself clarified that you do need to request the wheels be built with a narrow flange hub in order to have them fit, though that stands in contrast with what measurements of the wheel that was tested show. But at the very least, even according to Vince, a standard build of the wheel will not fit Specialized (or bikes with equally tight or tighter stays).

So I fail to see where I did not do the requisite checks for objectivity. What I find interesting is that caliper measurements indicate that the wheel that was TESTED will not fit in a lot of brakes or a lot of wheels. Vince says that it does, and other people have as well. That makes me wonder if the wheel that was tested is in fact what you can actually buy. This wouldn't be the first time that someone sent in a product for testing that wasn't an actual production product.

Keep in mind that Zipp actually has more of an onus to be truthful about statements that they make regarding HED's wheels than HED does. If Zipp makes a statement that is false, that could be construed as libel. It's much easier to make false statements about your own product than it is to make false statements about someone else's products from a legal standpoint.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [electusunus] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Although the Stinger 90 will be a little deeper than the 808. The fact that it is faster will help in producing lower yaws, in addition the airflow stays attached to a higher yaw. The combination of the 2 could produce a better handling wheel than the 808. Isn't it when the air stalls that we start the violent turbulence which creates poor handling? If the air never stalls then handling should be more than manageable. Competition is good, it helps us get better innovation. With that being said I would also like to know what Stinger 9 was tested. And to my knowledge the 2009 and 2010 stinger are the same except that one uses a 12K weave for the fairing (2009) versus a unidirectional layup (2010). The 2010 fairing is thus therefore lighter. I am rather frustrated though that you can never find this information without directly talking to someone at HED.

You really need to work the numbers on this one. The "lower yaw" allegedly produced by the incrementally faster wheel will be a delta of less than 0.1 degrees.


"Mars is a world completely inhabited by robots from another planet." -- RandMart (paraphrased)
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Rappstar you came out firing with a bunch of claims about the HED Stinger 9 that are may be misleading and or simply incorrect and now are backtracking and seeking clarification.

I would say it would be much more fair to edit his post with clarification, but its up to him.

It is funny the way when Zipp wheels don't fit frames, it's the frames fault. When a Hed doesn't fit wheels, it's just a sign of their inferiority.

Zipp may have better hubs and lighter wheels but a lot of times people posting on their behalf or their posts themselves come off as though they are trying to overcompensate or something.

One other interesting note is that Vince at Hed chimes in at the forum for a variety of reasons, especially as of late to chat about the tour. The only time you see Josh Poertner or Waldo pop in to a forum is when their guns are blazing about their products.

I'll edit my OP with a note and or make a change when I get confirmation that I'm actually wrong. Just look at the responses in this thread - "the wheels fit TRP brakes" followed two posts later by "no they don't." And as someone has pointed out, they do not fit ZG, as I said. The measurements of the wheel tested dictate that it will not fit the calipers mentioned WITH NEW PADS - either not at all (ZG) or too close to actually be practical.

In any case, when what I've said is shown to be incorrect, I will make the necessary changes - but so far, only one of the 3 things I've said even MAY be incorrect. The wheel was tested with a tire that will void the warranty. The wheel will not fit in narrow-stayed bikes without a special hub (what other sacrifices that narrow flanged hub makes is a whole other topic), though measurements dictate that it won't fit at all. And it definitely doesn't fit a lot of the narrower brakes like ZG.

As for the Zipp/HED not fitting certain frames, keep in mind that the Zipp wheel that didn't fit - the Sub9 on the P4 - the Sub9 was out well before the P4 was released (about a year). If a bike maker makes a bike after a given wheels is made publicly available (for quite a while) and that's the wheel brand that their own pro tour team uses for wheels, yeah, I'd say that was the bike makers fault. If a wheel maker makes wheels for frames that have been out for a long time and it doesn't fit those frames, then I'd say that's the wheel makers fault. Furthermore, the bigger issue with the Zipp's not fitting on Cervelos like the P3 (where the bolt boss of the rear brake of the P4 was not an issue) is that they didn't fit on SOME Cervelos. I.e., some people would have them fit fine and others wouldn't. That's due to variation in the wrapping of the joints and variance in paint thickness. Both bike mfr. "issues." Zipp's variance for runout and thickness is so minimal that's it's impossible for it to have played any role in the wheels not fitting.

Vince works in sales. Josh P. is the head of Zipp's engineering department. When was the last time Steve Hed came on this forum to answer a question about his designs?


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar, you are now saying 3 statements MAY be incorrect - however the tone of your original post was clear, direct and "competitor bashing". It isn't just what you say it's how you say it.

You then mention individual variances/tolerances in measurements - well that may explain the HED not fitting frames/measurements with Zipp's calipers too.

I certainly appreciate your input, expecially when someone has a question relating to something you've used. I just didn't really think it was appropriate the way you handled your first post.

As for blaming frame makers, wheel makers etc we don't need that (not specifically directing this at you Rappstar). It's just the case that as both frame makers and wheel makes try and fill the same gaps there will be times when things collide. The thing about Zipp wheels are there are a few options if you have that sort of frame that is tight fit - you can go with the 900 which is a flat disc and there other deep wheels appear to be a bit thinner then HEDs. Hed doesn't appear to have that option.


While I'm at it - if I have standard Alex rims (30mm deep) for training, and then a set of Jets or Stingers with the new C2 rims for racing, does that mean I will have to adjust my brakes (which don't have a quick release adjuster) every time I put my race wheels on? And what about Zipps wheels, is that a similar story, or am I right in assuming that Zipp wheels are still relatively narrow at the braking surface.

And get the 808 Firecrest carbon clinchers out soon Zippo - we want to check them out. :):)
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Vince works in sales. Josh P. is the head of Zipp's engineering department. When was the last time Steve Hed came on this forum to answer a question about his designs?

Zipp has what hundreds of employees, we have maybe 20 people.

Granted I am in "sales" doesnt mean a thing. Anytime a HED "sales" person has a question we go directly to the source, Steve because he is in the shop working on making the fastest wheels faster. When is the last time the Owner of Zipp/SRAM posted? Better yet, when is the last time the owner sat down at a desk and answered calls from a customer, not a pro or sponsored athlete, Jo Schmo calling in with questions?

Numbers are numbers if they come from a "sales" guy or an engineer. Just because I dont have a title, in fact, nobody at HED has a title, doesn't discount what I say one bit. 99% of the time Steve has contributed to the answer but doesnt need to post it on here or anyplace else. That is why they pay me!

I could easily say that you being sponsored by Zipp, Specialized and SRAM are being a good company guy buy talking bad about the competition, but I wont. You are simply promoting the companies that help you. There is nothing worng with that. I do the same thing, we all do.

Next year, if you were sponsored by us you would be saying good things about HED and not ZIPP. I can understand loyalty but dont let it cloud your judgment.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 18:59
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Rappstar, you are now saying 3 statements MAY be incorrect - however the tone of your original post was clear, direct and "competitor bashing". It isn't just what you say it's how you say it.

You then mention individual variances/tolerances in measurements - well that may explain the HED not fitting frames/measurements with Zipp's calipers too.

I certainly appreciate your input, expecially when someone has a question relating to something you've used. I just didn't really think it was appropriate the way you handled your first post.

As for blaming frame makers, wheel makers etc we don't need that (not specifically directing this at you Rappstar). It's just the case that as both frame makers and wheel makes try and fill the same gaps there will be times when things collide. The thing about Zipp wheels are there are a few options if you have that sort of frame that is tight fit - you can go with the 900 which is a flat disc and there other deep wheels appear to be a bit thinner then HEDs. Hed doesn't appear to have that option.


While I'm at it - if I have standard Alex rims (30mm deep) for training, and then a set of Jets or Stingers with the new C2 rims for racing, does that mean I will have to adjust my brakes (which don't have a quick release adjuster) every time I put my race wheels on? And what about Zipps wheels, is that a similar story, or am I right in assuming that Zipp wheels are still relatively narrow at the braking surface.

And get the 808 Firecrest carbon clinchers out soon Zippo - we want to check them out. :):)

Nope, reread what I wrote. I made three statements in my OP:
1) the wheel will not fit in SRAM calipers, older Shimano calipers, or other narrow calipers such as ZG calipers. This could be construed as being three separate statements, though, in which case I made six statements (or seven if you include "other narrow calipers" and ZG calipers separately)

2) the wheel was tested with a 21mm tire, which will void HEDs warranty, making the test results somewhat impractical since it's a big risk to run the setup as it was tested, by HED's own admission.

3) The wheel will not fit in Specialized frames or other narrow-stayed bikes.

Of those statements, #2 is undeniably true.

#3 is slightly debatable in that Vince has said it will fit *if you get it built on special narrow flange hub.* The measurements that Zipp took of the wheel indicate that this is not the case, and that even with a narrow flange hub, their measurements of the rim (what they measured was given by me above) indicate that it still won't fit. HED does not publish the dimensions of their rim, and Vince has not made them available here. But at the very least, you need to have it built on a special hub, something which is mentioned nowhere on HED's own website. And worse case scenario is that based off caliper measurements of the rim, it won't fit regardless of what hub is used.

The statement(s) which seems to be the most debatable is whether or not the wheels fit SRAM calipers. Another poster has confirmed that they do not fit on ZG, so that's clear. Someone posted that they do fit TRP, but then someone else said no, so at the very least, it seems like it's a very tight fit, and may be related to whether or not the pads used were new. The "clarification" (not backtracking, IMO) that I wanted was regarding pads -the folks at Zipp said they were only referring to the wheel not fitting with new, stock pads, not shaved pads or some potential brand that makes narrower than normal pads or some other potential interaction with the brake as a unit.

On to your next question... Given what you've said about your training/racing wheels, yes you will have to adjust your calipers. As for Zipp, it would depend on what wheels you used. If you were using any of the current generation of clinchers, you likely would not have to adjust your calipers (I say likely because there is occassionally some variance with the *height* and vertical placement of brake tracks on certain hoops). But if you were going from Alex-->Zipp tubular rims (or 404 carbon clinchers), then you would need to make changes.


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Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar - when you say that the S9 doesn't fit Specialized bikes, do you mean tri bikes specifically, or all road frames as well?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Granted I cant find a bigger picture but this is a Specialized we build up for the owner of Lifetime. He used it at this years Lifetime Triathlon (3 weeks ago).

You will see that it is a specialized with the Stingers 9's.

Granted Zipp and their calipers say it wont fit but I know it does. I saw the damn bike with the wheels on it!






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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 19:28
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Vince, for clarification purposes...are the hubs in that photo HED's standard hubs or are they the narrow flange hubs that you spoke of?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Nate, I cant remember. I will check the build sheet in the morning.

I think .... think ...... it might be our regular hub (not the double flange) but the wheels he was using where our Flamme Rouge wheels so the hubs are a bit different.

i will check tomorrow


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Cool, the discussion here is in the details for some participants.

Here's my $.02 for Rappstar and others... I ride SRAM force brakes and I've had no problems using Stinger 6's. They do have to be adjusted to fit, but there is enough clearance for my big ass to sprint over and over again in crits without the rim smacking the pads.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah buddy!. The details part, not the big ass part :)


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
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Why is so clear that the 1080 would have won??? Did you see the german tour magazine wheel test from this year. If I recall I believe the stinger crushed the 1080 at 12.5 degrees

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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OK, hopefully I can add some clarity here...the reality is that I have no idea what Hed is up to, or how this prouduct really performs beyond this test, as I cannot get one to test in depth, despite having been trying for a few months.

First of all, we knew this VN test was coming (unlike Tour Germany or or Triathlon Germany who buy wheels locally to be sure that the test product is 'as sold', VN got these wheels from the manufacturers), so we sent them standard 808's and also a prototype pair of the new 808 with Firecrest geometry, which was debuted at the Tour and will be officially shown in public at Eurobike in a few weeks. they only officially tested the standard 808 as the FC version was not available yet (the testing was done in May)...they do mention the new 808 in the front of the magazine as a product that you would see at the Tour, but would not put it in the review as it wasn't shipping yet...I agree with their decision and think it shows integrity on their part.

in late April, we bought all of the products that were going to be tested by VN and took them to the A2 tunnel to make sure we would be on top (we had just been to A2 5 weeks earlier with a S9 purchased in December and we were beating it at that time, but had never tested a Cole wheel, though we later determined it to be the same rim as FFWD) and we bought a Stinger9 from a very large Hed retailer online in early April. This wheel has the unidirectional sidewalls with woven ID and OD (a layup concept now used by Hed's chinese manufacturer on all their products, but pioneered by Zipp beginning in 2001...so it is not so easy to pick our zipp wheels by the layup alone as mentioned earlier in the thread) and is similar to the shape in the images on Hed's website in that it has a wide brake track, smaller spoke bed radius with slight V shape and deep tire bed (except that the web images are full woven rims). this wheel does not beat the 808 with 21mm tire and is essentially equal with 23mm tires (slightly better actually at 15 degrees, but only by about 12 grams), though, the 404 Firecrest carbon clincher easily beats it at all angles between 0 and 20 degrees...but that's another story.

The wheel that velonews had, looks very much like a 1080 with a wider multi-radius spoke bed shape, but has a very wide brake track and 7.5mm deep tire bed (4.5-5 is normal). this wheel definitely beat the 808 in this test, no question, and I do commend Hed on producing a really fast wheel...the wheel is fast, I am not disputing that. In Hed's defense, this new shape is now shown in Hed's magazine advertising, but is still not what is shown on the website, so no idea what the official changeover date was, but in the retail channel and on the team side, I have bought 2 of these between March 1 and June 15 and had access to a third set from a Hed sponsored team, and none of them have this new bulbous spoke bed shape...I did get some time with the new wheel at the Tour Prologue with a Hed sponsored team and talked at length with the mechanics, as well as mechanics which had involvement in the VN test, so though I don't/can't own one yet, I do have some pretty good knowledge of it.

Rappstar is correct in that the 27.75-28.0mm brake track (the rim is painted, so there is a bit of variance) will not work with ZeroG brakes and is very tight with older SRAM and some model Shimano and Tektro (commonly rebranded with major bike brand names) brakes as well as the integrated chainstay brakes from Specialized and Cervelo. we can measure this from the actual brakes, as well as knowing that our sub9 is 28.5mm wide at the bulge, and only 26.5 mm wide in the brake track...and yet, has had fitment issues in some frames as has been discussed ad nauseum here on ST. As we experienced with the sub9, there is manufacturing variance in all of the subcomponents of a frame or brake, so it is nearly impossible to tell if a particular wheel will work in your particular frame or brake, and that is why there will be lots of conflicting information on this...'it won't fit at all in my Tektro/Cervelo brake'...'it fits great in my Tektro/Cervelo brake'... both are most likely correct as the brake assembly has over 2mm of allowed variance in MAX open width...so your experience may vary, but it seems from the article that the VN testers also had some issues here..

Ultimately, I think time will tell that Hed wins the 80-90mm deep wheel aero battle for a few months (you have to admit that the timing here is pretty awesome for them...this version of the 808 is almost 3 years old and the Stinger9 is brand new) but Firecrest will change things in a few weeks... With FC, we are equal to, or better than the Stinger9 at every data point, without having to resort to using a super deep or impact prone tire bed geometry and without limitation on tire pressure or tire size...in fact we might have been able to integrate the identical tire bed geometry and perimeter edge layup/geometry as the Paris-Roubaix winning 303...but I'm not saying for sure before Eurobike.

In the end, I feel that we are about to unleash something game changing...something lighter, more aero, more useable in more types of events, something with no limitations and no weaknesses when considering total performance...something that might have just won 5 TdF stages under a customer... but in the mean time, Hed will definitely has the more aero wheel for the rest of the summer.

Lastly, Vince is right that Cav's crash was on a Zipp wheelset...he will not ride anything else (he even mentions us in his book..), and has been a great customer of ours for a few years. Unfortunately the wheel was failed in the incident, but as Cav pointed out, when you get T-boned at 44mph, bad things happen. Attached is the picture of him signing it and giving it to me in Rotterdam...as he pointed out, Hausler hit him behind the hub, turning the wheel 90deg to the direction of travel, essentially taking the wheel from 44mph to 0mph in about 5cm...he still believes that had Hausler hit him in front of the hub, they both would have stayed up and sprinted for the win...these guys have unbelievable cajones!!! Though we have built wheels for him for a few years, this was the first time I'd actually met him. I was really impressed by a soft-spoken, introspective guy...not at all how the media portrays him at times. As he has said before, and told me that day 'don't listen to me when I have my helmet on'... he also spent 10 minutes showing me his 3 new pair of shoes, each a different color, as well as his new 'samurai' bike, I was also surprised by his interest in all the technology...

thanks for listening
Josh



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Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Ah Bahram...he was pretty happy with the bike, not as much with his time this year! lol
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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Josh thanks for the post. It looks like we have a little AMD/Intel battle heating up, can you comment anymore on the 404 Firecrest CC. How does it compare against the current 808? Obviously it wins at 15 degrees but how about the rest of the data points?

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [JesseN] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Rappstar - when you say that the S9 doesn't fit Specialized bikes, do you mean tri bikes specifically, or all road frames as well?

Well...in the VN article they said that it wouldn't fit into the Tarmac SL2 of one of the test riders...oh, and they also said that they almost didn't fit into SRAM brakes with fresh pads.

They also stated "But the Stinger 9s are too wide for some brakes and some frames, to the point of total incompatibility. And the deep tire bed requires fat tires to avoid rim damage (which we've already experience to a small degree by using 21mm tires)."

Doh. I guess those wheels won't be going back for warranty replacement...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Good to hear from you Josh. You are right, it is fun! HED or Zipp in the end the customer wins because all the new technology it forces everybody to keep improving.

Don't worry HED fans we aren't sitting in the back of the pack though. Needless to say, Interbike will be very fun this year. That's all I'm going to say. We have a few things up or sleeves too.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 5:15
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
...though, the 404 Firecrest carbon clincher easily beats it at all angles between 0 and 20 degrees...but that's another story.

Tell me more...with what tires on both?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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ah competition at its finest, and we the consumer have everything to gain.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I was wondering, where (in what country) are the stinger series wheels made?

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Finally going to release those "Prototype" discs everyone's been running?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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The key question is what Stinger 9 wheel did VN test? Is it the regular 2010 retail wheel that some of us have purchased? In earlier post that is what Vince is saying. Or is it some new version of the Stinger 9 that Josh and Rappstar are implying is different than what HED has been selling? And don't know where anyone can get one at?

If it honestly is some new version of the Stinger 9 why would HED not make a big deal about it?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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The Stinger 9 tested is the EXACT SAME ONE!!!! the customer can buy from us when they say they want to buy a Stinger 9. (im pretty sure I said that 2x already) It is the same one we sent you too.

We dont have 2 kinds of Stingers, one for testing and one for sale. The wheel tested is the wheel we sell

I might be wrong but Zipp gets their carbon from overseas too. We get our rims from Taiwan but the carbon faring is made in Iowa, sent to Minnesota and them bonded to the rim by our guys. Then it is spoked, trued and sold

I think they have the same type of process too. Like I said, I might be wrong on that one


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 4:16
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Vince. I do realize you said it 2x times. Well 3x now. But both Rappstar and Josh indicate very specifically that it is not the same wheel.

From my point of view I don't know why HED would not brag about a new version if it was a new version. New sales to existing customers with some pretty good numbers to back it up. But Josh seems like a very straight up guy even if he works for a competing company and he is so sure it is a different wheel.

Maybe Josh could share why he is convinced it is not the same wheel. Some measurement difference or something.

For me my Stinger 9 would not fit inside TRP calipers. This is a front wheel. It was no big deal for me to grind down the brake pads. The brakes work great with the wheel now. It was not that close. This is with the brake completely let out and adjustment screw removed and the brake in released mode. It would not fit. I use Swiss yellow brake pads. But this fix, for me, was a non issue.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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Re-read thread and see what Josh is indicating is different about the wheel. I just measured my width at brake and it is 28mm with a digital caliper.

Tire is mounted so don't know how deep the bed is but I remember it being the deepest I have ever seen before. Almost seemed like you did not need to glue the tire.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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The EC90TT was ranked 4th in aerodynamics, but it, the 808 (2nd), and the Bontrager Aeolus 9 (3rd) are all extremely close. For practical purposes their real world performance should be nearly equivalent.

In fact I question their ranking of the Aeolus ahead of the EC90 since the Aeolus only beat the EC90 at one yaw angle, 10 degrees. They must just add up the difference in grams at each yaw angle to get a total ranking, and the Aeolus was enough better at 10 degrees to offset the other 5 data points.

Compared with the 808, the EC90 is a tiny bit ahead at 0 and 5 degrees, maybe 25-30 grams behind at 10 degrees, a tiny bit behind at 15 and 20 degrees, and a bit ahead at 25 degrees.

Of course, we all know that stiffness and rotational inertia are worth twice as much as aero, that's how Velonews added it up for their numerical rankings, and if they say so, it must be true. ;-)
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Lastly, Vince is right that Cav's crash was on a Zipp wheelset...he will not ride anything else (he even mentions us in his book..), and has been a great customer of ours for a few years.


I didn't realize that he only rode Zipp wheels. Actually, I was under the impression that he mostly rode HED wheels. Here are posts from HED's Twitter feed about Mark Cavendish during the Tour de France.

June 30: Follow the HED. sponsored teams at this years Tour de France: @HTCColumbia, @TeamRadioShack and @TeamSky

July 8: Great stage 5 finish! 2 HED. teams go 1 and 3. Cav 1st (HTC), bos hagen (SKY) 3rd. Pics to follow!

July 9: How about that Mark Cavendish, 2 in a row!!

July 15: Mark Cavendish does it again! 3 stage wins this year ............. Thats using your head :)

July 23: 4th Stage Win! Way to go Cavendish!!!

Though they don't say that Cav was on HED wheels for his wins, it seems to me that the intent of these posts was to imply that he was. Can someone clarify?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [JohnnySlimane] [ In reply to ]
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I personally love the 808 and hate the 1080! we have a 15km tt series locally and I ran some different wheels over different nights (did a couple of 2 per night too with runinng the 1080 first), by far the 1080 on a flat course was the slowest wheel I used compared to a 404, 808, easton ec90tt, and stinger 6. No matter if it was a cross or head/tailwind the 1080 I think just feels heavy and slow.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
But both Rappstar and Josh indicate very specifically that it is not the same wheel.


Sometimes its hard for "experts' to admit they are wrong.

as far as the Twitter post go ..... when Cavendish wins, HTC wins, we sponsor HTC so there for we are happy and want to tell everybody. There are more people on HTC that ride HED wheels than Zipp wheels. When RadioShack or Lance do well we promote that too and they are on Bontrager wheels and our faring.

If you would look at the other posts, when a HTC rider on HED wheels wheels I mention that. When cavendish wins i mention that he wins, not that we was riding HED wheels though. If you win on HEDS i say that if not, I say a HED sponsored team won


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 6:43
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [JohnnySlimane] [ In reply to ]
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Andre Greipel uses Heds. When Mark Cavendish wins, HTC wins, and Hed sponsors HTC. When Mark Cavendish's wheel folds in half, he rides Zipp. You're smart enough to figure out which wheels Cavendish races on.

Cavendish mentions Zipp in his book, even going so far as to say that he feared he wouldn't win a stage in the Tour two years ago because his team didn't put an 808 rear wheel on his bike, only a 404. He won anyway.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The Stinger 9 tested is the EXACT SAME ONE!!!! the customer can buy from us when they say they want to buy a Stinger 9. (im pretty sure I said that 2x already) It is the same one we sent you too.

We dont have 2 kinds of Stingers, one for testing and one for sale. The wheel tested is the wheel we sell


Thanks Vince,

Didn't see this thread until this morning. I've been dabbling in the Lavender Room and Politics Only forum on Road Bike Review. You think this is a tough crowd ??? (:-)

So there have never been any versions of the Stinger 9 rim sold. I thought that there was a narrow version sold early on but now only the C2 is available. Sorry about the 4X request but it is sort of a different question ?? (:-)

I happened to have the tire off my front Stinger 9 which I bought in 2009 supposedly as the C2 version. Here are some measurements:

Rim Depth - 90 mm

Width of Rim at ~ center of Brake Pad surface - 26.0 mm

Tire Bead Outside Width - 24.1 mm

Max Rim Width - 27.1 mm

Depth of Tire Bed - ~ 5.0 mm (difficult to measure due to the residual glue)

Width of RXL Pro Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm

Width of Vitt CX 21 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm

Width of Vitt Crono II 22 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.0 mm

Wondering if you could please check on these measurements against the Stinger 9 specs.

Edit - correct Depth of Tire Bed
Last edited by: AFM: Jul 30, 10 7:42
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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Nah, its all good. Its fun.

You are correct about 2 yrs ago our Stigners, heck all of our wheels were the 19mm variety. They had the graphics that were clearcoated into the carbon.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Nah, its all good. Its fun.

You are correct about 2 yrs ago our Stigners, heck all of our wheels were the 19mm variety. They had the graphics that were clearcoated into the carbon.


Thanks - so I have the C2 version - dimensions all look OK. BTW the graphics are stickers with no clearcoat.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Oh yeah ..... Cavendish winning a stage at this year Tour of Cali ................ Notice the wheels, in particular the front hub ................ So he may be sponsored by Zipp but he rides our stuff too

:)




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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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And the feature story in Cycling news that profiled Cavendish's road bike:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...olumbia-scott-addict





HED's 'Flamme Rouge'-edition front hubs feature a carbon fiber center section to shave a few grams.

:)


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 6:58
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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For a moment there the discussion was getting ridiculous, thanks Johs from the intel.
Guess there is always at least two sides to the story.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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The Stinger 9 tested is the EXACT SAME ONE!!!! the customer can buy from us when they say they want to buy a Stinger 9. (im pretty sure I said that 2x already) It is the same one we sent you too.

We dont have 2 kinds of Stingers, one for testing and one for sale. The wheel tested is the wheel we sell


Thanks Vince,

Didn't see this thread until this morning. I've been dabbling in the Lavender Room and Politics Only forum on Road Bike Review. You think this is a tough crowd ??? (:-)

So there have never been any versions of the Stinger 9 rim sold. I thought that there was a narrow version sold early on but now only the C2 is available. Sorry about the 4X request but it is sort of a different question ?? (:-)

I happened to have the tire off my front Stinger 9 which I bought in 2009 supposedly as the C2 version. Here are some measurements:

Rim Depth - 90 mm

Width of Rim at ~ center of Brake Pad surface - 26.0 mm

Tire Bead Outside Width - 24.1 mm

Max Rim Width - 27.1 mm

Depth of Tire Bed - 4.6 mm

Width of RXL Pro Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm

Width of Vitt CX 21 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm

Width of Vitt Crono II 22 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.0 mm

Wondering if you could please check on these measurements against the Stinger 9 specs.

Thanks Alan. I'm curious too, since this "Depth of Tire Bed - 4.6 mm" is precisely what is VERY different than what Josh measured. The wheel you have is the only one that the guys at Zipp have been able to find. Though also narrower than what Josh found on that wheel, and seemingly narrower than the wheel that bartturner has (though not sure what he used to measure it).


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Very pretty. That was a pre-Flanders profile. Are those the wheels he raced on?

Eganski tweets
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I might be wrong but Zipp gets their carbon from overseas too. We get our rims from Taiwan but the carbon faring is made in Iowa, sent to Minnesota and them bonded to the rim by our guys. Then it is spoked, trued and sold

I think they have the same type of process too. Like I said, I might be wrong on that one

Nope, you are wrong. All wheels go from raw materials (excluding spokes) to production at Zipp's single facility in Speedway. The only exception is the bearings, which are Swiss. The lone exception to this WAS the "CSC/Team Issue" wheel which used a DT Swiss hoop. The raw materials come from a variety of places, including China.

Further, Zipp's clincher wheels are not a fairing bonded to a rim. It's an aluminum extrusion (with bead hooks) that is co-molded with the deeper carbon section. You can easily tell this because the spoke nipples anchor at the inner edge of the hoop, not into the aluminum extrusion. So it's a fully structural co-molded wheel, not a structural rim bonded to a fairing.

Lastly, you didn't answer the question about how or where the Stingers are made, since they are not a fairing bonded onto a rim. That's the Jets. The question was where are the Stinger series wheels made.

EDIT: Quick edit, because I forgot the new 101s. The hoop is rolled and extruded in Taiwan. The clincher extrusions are also now rolled and extruded and welded (but not drilled or anodized or post-machined) there as well, a change that happened ~4 years ago when Zipp's only source for that work closed up shop stateside.

Complete breakdown of materials:
- US sourced carbon and resin, which is shipped frozen to Speedway and fabricated into rims.
- Carbon and resin are manufactured from raw polymers in California and Utah.
- Non-carbon composite materials, mainly Silicon Carbide and Boron from Ohio and New Jersey.
- ALL raw materials carry AS or QS certifications.
- Aluminum (for hubs, etc. - not for the extrusions) is sourced from Lafayette Indiana and completely machined, anodized and finished in Speedway.
- All mold tooling, presses and manufacturing equipment are designed in Speedway, and fabricated within the border of Indiana.
- Decals are printed in Indiana on 3M films produced in Minnesota.

The only foreign sourced components in a Zipp wheelset are spokes and nipples from Belgium, bearings from Switzerland, and - in the case of the co-molded clinchers (so the "regular" 404 clincher, for example, but not the 404 CC) and the 101 - the rim extrusion (or hoop in the 101's case) from Taiwan. And all hub and wheel assembly is done in Speedway.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Last edited by: Rappstar: Jul 30, 10 7:55
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Alan. I'm curious too, since this "Depth of Tire Bed - 4.6 mm" is precisely what is VERY different than what Josh measured. The wheel you have is the only one that the guys at Zipp have been able to find. Though also narrower than what Josh found on that wheel, and seemingly narrower than the wheel that bartturner has (though not sure what he used to measure it).


Since you highlighted the Depth of the Tire Bed I remeasured - it is actually closer to 5.0 mm. There is some residual glue on the rim which I didn't bother to correct for. I'll fix that above as well.

I have a Vernier caliper as well but with a mechanical dial readout.
Last edited by: AFM: Jul 30, 10 7:48
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I did forget to answer the question. The Stingers are made overseas. You are correct, the Jets are fabricated here.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Nah, its all good. Its fun.

You are correct about 2 yrs ago our Stigners, heck all of our wheels were the 19mm variety. They had the graphics that were clearcoated into the carbon.

That's the Stinger 90. It appears that there are actually 2 versions of the Stinger 9 though. Al's wheel doesn't measure the same as the current one (the one I have has the same dimensions as Al's).

I had actually read that there was a running change/redesign on the Stinger 9. If I had to guess, I'm guessing you guys didn't make a big deal about it in an effort to help move the older stock?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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OK, you were right, I was wrong. That wheel is different than the one I have. Yes, there are brake fitment issues with it. It seems to be the same width now as the S6.

BTW, with the new Zipp Tangente brake pads, the HED's fit perfectly. There's a little irony...
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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OK, you were right, I was wrong. That wheel is different than the one I have. Yes, there are brake fitment issues with it. It seems to be the same width now as the S6.

BTW, with the new Zipp Tangente brake pads, the HED's fit perfectly. There's a little irony...

Thank you. I promise that if - and WHEN - I am wrong (I will be), I'll say likewise.

Ironically, I actually was thinking precisely of the very low-profile Tangente pads when I wrote "new STOCK pads" as the criterion for wheels not fitting. So I'm not surprised by that, but do find it pretty ironic.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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Nah, its all good. Its fun.

You are correct about 2 yrs ago our Stigners, heck all of our wheels were the 19mm variety. They had the graphics that were clearcoated into the carbon.


That's the Stinger 90. It appears that there are actually 2 versions of the Stinger 9 though. Al's wheel doesn't measure the same as the current one (the one I have has the same dimensions as Al's).

I had actually read that there was a running change/redesign on the Stinger 9. If I had to guess, I'm guessing you guys didn't make a big deal about it in an effort to help move the older stock?


Oh great - so we have the Stinger 9 but we actually don't ?? How does this affect the aero performance ?? I remember about a year ago when looking at the Jet and Stinger disc I decided on the C2 Jet (on good advice from Jack) because it looked better in low wind conditions. Just after receiving the Jet Disc (and Stinger C2 9 front) HED changed the Stinger Disc data to indicate much better performance. I don't recall whether the Stinger 9 data changed as well ??

Hopefully Vince will clarify.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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I don't recall whether the Stinger 9 data changed as well ??

They did. At one time, the S9 had much lower drag than the 6 at the middle yaw angles, then shot up over the 6 at high yaw. I remember this when I was considering both wheels. At some point, the drag curve changed and was lower than the 6 over all of the higher yaws (as it now appears on HED's site). This must be the newest iteration of the S9.

As far as the Stinger 90, I'm pretty sure that was a different wheel with a more narrow profile (though still pretty wide, IIRC). Vince will have to confirm that, though. I remember seeing drag curves for the Stinger 90 and the weren't nearly as good as the first S9, of that I'm sure.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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I don't recall whether the Stinger 9 data changed as well ??


They did. At one time, the S9 had much lower drag than the 6 at the middle yaw angles, then shot up over the 6 at high yaw. I remember this when I was considering both wheels. At some point, the drag curve changed and was lower than the 6 over all of the higher yaws (as it now appears on HED's site). This must be the newest iteration of the S9.

As far as the Stinger 90, I'm pretty sure that was a different wheel with a more narrow profile (though still pretty wide, IIRC). Vince will have to confirm that, though. I remember seeing drag curves for the Stinger 90 and the weren't nearly as good as the first S9, of that I'm sure.


My wheel has stickers with H E D lettering and a 9 embedded in the left most vertical member of the H. So it looks like we may have the first and slower iteration ?? Possibly the data was changed on the Stinger 9 before I started looking at the data, I then ordered (actually got a good deal on the Jet/S9 set) but received the old and slower S9 version ?? Vince mentioned that the older and more narrow 90 mm Stingers had clearcoat over the graphics as did the older Zipp wheels.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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Old wheel, 3 yrs ago give or take - 19mm


The new wheel (same one tested) is the one in the VN test

As far as the data goes, I will have to check on that for you. I have only been at HED. when the data for the new Stingers were published/posted online. I will ask around to see if we have the older data.

We did change the Stinger sticker design with the new wheels. The one with the 9 in the H is one of our newer designs.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Vince - please let us know what you find out.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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You got it buddy!

It might be late on Sunday. I am headed to Ragbrai this weekend, leaving soon


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 10:20
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Vince, I was wondering, where (in what country) are the newest hed stinger series wheels made?

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Dark] [ In reply to ]
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They are made in Taiwan


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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To clarify my post, I have nothing against HED. Prior to reading this thread, I assumed that Cav had been riding HED wheels for his wins in the TdF this year. Now I'm just confused.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [JohnnySlimane] [ In reply to ]
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We sponsor the team, Zipp sponsors the rider


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Dark] [ In reply to ]
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Geez, why does everyone care if the rim is made overseas or not?

I think all these wheels are fast, and unless you are losing your TT's/Ironman's by a couple of seconds, which 99.9% people here are not, it ain't gonna matter.
I firmly believe that if any of the wheels were noticeably faster than the other, then almost every pro cyclist would be using the same wheels, all re-badged with their sponsors logo.

I prefer to choose wheels that don't break. I understand from their marketing, that Zipp rims are supposed to now be stronger. But the fact that everyone I know personally that owned Zipps in the past (which admittedly is only about 10 people) broke them, prevents me from dropping my $$ on them.
On the other hand, I know many on Easton carbons, and a few on HED, and none have had a failure.. That's what matters to me...

flame suit.....on...
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Geez, why does everyone care if the rim is made overseas or not?

Lord only knows


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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Hello TTmo and All,

1080 front or back, or both?

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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1080 Front wheel. do not like at all, and others I know that had/have it don't like it too much either.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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1080 Front wheel. do not like at all, and others I know that had/have it don't like it too much either.


That wheel requires particular skills to be ridden efficiently, but for those that have those skills the 1080 front is an extremelly fast wheel... as the S9 is also.

Sergio

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt and I find the 808 to be much faster! I know I see that wheel under a lot more people than just pro's. Handling it is no problem, it just feels like a parachute and not a kite to me.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Geez, why does everyone care if the rim is made overseas or not?

I think all these wheels are fast, and unless you are losing your TT's/Ironman's by a couple of seconds, which 99.9% people here are not, it ain't gonna matter.
I firmly believe that if any of the wheels were noticeably faster than the other, then almost every pro cyclist would be using the same wheels, all re-badged with their sponsors logo.

I prefer to choose wheels that don't break. I understand from their marketing, that Zipp rims are supposed to now be stronger. But the fact that everyone I know personally that owned Zipps in the past (which admittedly is only about 10 people) broke them, prevents me from dropping my $$ on them.
On the other hand, I know many on Easton carbons, and a few on HED, and none have had a failure.. That's what matters to me...

flame suit.....on...

The primary reason I'd care if they're made overseas or not is whether the wheel in question has sufficient IP attached to the design or manufacturing process. As in, you largely don't want everyone else selling the same wheel as you in about 3 weeks under a generic name. Labor costs are higher here, but transportation/distribution costs are lower. Not sure how automated the fabrication of new wheels is, but prepreg should be much more machine-driven. Who knows where the tipping point is.

From a nationalistic perspective, I like hearing that things are made here in the US. We've already lost far too much of our manufacturing base, and I hope recent economic "effects" along with energy costs start making companies look at where they make things and whether they're living in a false economy.

I agree with the rest of your post.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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1080 Front wheel. do not like at all, and others I know that had/have it don't like it too much either.


That wheel requires particular skills to be ridden efficiently, but for those that have those skills the 1080 front is an extremelly fast wheel... as the S9 is also.

Sergio

These kinds of skills? ;-)
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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I cant speak for Zipp but we hold the patent rights to our wheels so there wont be any fakes out there. We have no problems going after those companies that do too.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I think you meant to respond to me. I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with making your stuff overseas. It appears that there's a core group of manufacturers there that make good carbon stuff in China/Taiwan. I also bet that HED owns those molds and keeps very good tabs on them. But we've both got to be honest--there's a lot of straight knock offs coming from that part of the world, and we have very little legal leverage against them.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt

Speaking of which: good luck this weekend!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [DHeineck] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, you are right about that!


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt


Speaking of which: good luck this weekend!

Thanks! Henderson is looking really strong and will probably set a new record if he wins. Any idea what the best time for that course is?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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This is something that has come up on the forum lately but no one seemed to have an exact answer. I know the hybi-toroidal rim shape has plenty of years left, Zipp applied in 1997 I believe, but the original toroidal rim shape patent is near its end is it not?

Applied October 20, 1989 and granted October 29, 1991.

If I read correctly, patents last for 20 years from date of application or 17 years from date they were granted if they were applied for before 1995 and after 1979 if it is a utility patent.

If it's a design patent then it's only 14 years and this conversation is fairly moot.

I believe Rappstar said that some Taiwanese companies had toroidal rims at the most recent interbike, though I have not seen them in use as of yet.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt and I find the 808 to be much faster! I know I see that wheel under a lot more people than just pro's. Handling it is no problem, it just feels like a parachute and not a kite to me.


If that 1080 felt like "a parachute" then there is something else going on there.

Sergio

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
This is something that has come up on the forum lately but no one seemed to have an exact answer. I know the hybi-toroidal rim shape has plenty of years left, Zipp applied in 1997 I believe, but the original toroidal rim shape patent is near its end is it not?

Applied October 20, 1989 and granted October 29, 1991.

If I read correctly, patents last for 20 years from date of application or 17 years from date they were granted if they were applied for before 1995 and after 1979 if it is a utility patent.

If it's a design patent then it's only 14 years and this conversation is fairly moot.

I believe Rappstar said that some Taiwanese companies had toroidal rims at the most recent interbike, though I have not seen them in use as of yet.

The toroidal patent is expired. There were lots of wheels in the backrooms at I'bike last year. But I'm surprised they aren't for sale publicly yet. It'll be any day now, though. That's my understanding from the last conversation I had. I thought it was 17 years, with the expiration actually being Oct of last year, but that would mean 1992... <shrug>


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Or maybe different wind conditions if this was on the same course.

I just find it hard to accept that all other things being the same (tubular type and glue/gluing procedure, spoke tension, no rubbing in brake pads, etc.) with a variable yaw in a typical TT course, a 404 is faster than a 1080. The 1080 wheel feeling like a "parachute" is something else.

Sergio

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt


Speaking of which: good luck this weekend!

Thanks! Henderson is looking really strong and will probably set a new record if he wins. Any idea what the best time for that course is?

Given the fact that the turn-around differs every year, I don't really think there is any such thing as a course record (except perhaps for the women <g>).

EDIT: Fastest time for any man in the past decade appears to be the 52 flat that Joe Hill did in 2004. However, according to my SRM the course was only 38.56 km that year, vs. the 41.27 km we raced last year. That would make Henderson's time last year the fastest, as it would be the equivalent of a 51:36...but as you know, he apparently went through some sort of space-time warp on the return leg (maybe he got a big boost from that storm?).

EDIT2: There is also Andrew Chocha's 52:26 in 2007. I don't have an exact distance handy (as Angie's speedo quit working), but it would have been very, very close to 40 km (based on her time, cadence, and the roll-out of her fixed gear).
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Jul 30, 10 12:59
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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I've got a Stinger 6/9 combo which I bought recently based, in part, on Vince's recommendation (from before he was with HED). I had to wait for them to be built because they were on back order in the Spring. Thus, I'm fairly certain mine were built in early May of this year - and are presumably the latest iteration I've got Continental GP 40000 SRs on them (a good tire for the Texas roads I ride). I love the wheels. For the record, they fit my SRAM Red brakes without any problems or modifications.

Vince, I'll give you a call this weekend to go over next week's plan. (BTW, Vince does have a title. To me, at least, he's "coach Vince!")
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Or maybe different wind conditions if this was on the same course.

I just find it hard to accept that all other things being the same (tubular type and glue/gluing procedure, spoke tension, no rubbing in brake pads, etc.) with a variable yaw in a typical TT course, a 404 is faster than a 1080. The 1080 wheel feeling like a "parachute" is something else.

Sergio

ran it on the same course several times always the slower times on that wheel! I'm telling you unless it's shorter than a 10k tt or a point to point i don't think a 1080 is faster than an 808.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [SHPTri] [ In reply to ]
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Nice! thanks buddy. Although, you are being nice so the hill sprints must have been too easy this week!!!!


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 13:18
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Nice! thanks buddy. Although, you are being nice so the hill sprints must have been too easy this week!!!!

LOL. Actually, I was going to write that your other title (according to my wife) is: The Guy You Pay to Come Up With Ways to Torture Yourself" .
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
1080 Front wheel. do not like at all, and others I know that had/have it don't like it too much either.


That wheel requires particular skills to be ridden efficiently, but for those that have those skills the 1080 front is an extremelly fast wheel... as the S9 is also.

Sergio


These kinds of skills? ;-)

Shouldn't he have been DQ'd for cutting the course?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Or maybe different wind conditions if this was on the same course.

I just find it hard to accept that all other things being the same (tubular type and glue/gluing procedure, spoke tension, no rubbing in brake pads, etc.) with a variable yaw in a typical TT course, a 404 is faster than a 1080. The 1080 wheel feeling like a "parachute" is something else.

Sergio


ran it on the same course several times always the slower times on that wheel! I'm telling you unless it's shorter than a 10k tt or a point to point i don't think a 1080 is faster than an 808.

I'm not sure if you answered and I didn't catch it, but did you say what tires were on each?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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1080 Front wheel. do not like at all, and others I know that had/have it don't like it too much either.


That wheel requires particular skills to be ridden efficiently, but for those that have those skills the 1080 front is an extremelly fast wheel... as the S9 is also.

Sergio


These kinds of skills? ;-)


Shouldn't he have been DQ'd for cutting the course?


Not in this particular case. It was the race organizer's fault. It is cleary stated in the rules regarding TTs. That was not a safe course for a TT.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I think whether you have a Zipp 404/808 combo or a HED Stinger 6/Stinger 9 combo, they are both very fast set ups and the actual real world difference between the two is marginal.
But, when I was making my wheel decision last year it came down to this:

Zipp 404 front: $1035
Zipp 808 rear: $1375

Total: $2410


HED Stinger 6 front: $700
HED Stinger 9 rear: $850

Total: $1550

thats an $860 difference in HED's favor.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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I ride stinger 90 this season instead of Zipp 606(clincher) and i m very happy. i don' t need to pay for all the Zipp marketing all over the place. Those ads have a price tag and it won't make you faster.Period.

The Zipp marketing is 10/10, congrats to them!

Jf
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bushpilot] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I ride stinger 90 this season instead of Zipp 606(clincher) and i m very happy. i don' t need to pay for all the Zipp marketing all over the place. Those ads have a price tag and it won't make you faster.Period.

The Zipp marketing is 10/10, congrats to them!

Jf

I see this trotted out over and over and over again, and it's just not true. Open up any issue of any cycling magazine or any triathlon magazine and count the number of ads from Zipp. Now count the number of ads from HED. Or Easton. It's pretty much the same - about one per magazine. Zipp sponsors two Div 1 protour teams, HED sponsors one (though as has been pointed out, Cavendish himself is a Zipp athlete). Zipp is a bigger company, they sell more wheels, so yes, they maybe have a slightly larger advertising budget. But the overwhelming price difference between wheels has to do with cost of construction. Jets are carbon fairings bonded to structurally sound rims. Zipp aluminum clinchers are non-structurally-sound extrusions co-molded to a deep carbon structural "lower" (for lack of a better term). Stingers hoops are made in Taiwan of Chinese carbon fiber. Zipp full-carbon wheels are made in the US of US-made carbon fiber and resins. HED's discs are spoked wheels with a full-carbon skin bonded on. Zipp's wheels are nomex-honeycomb cores in some cases (Sub9 & 900clincher) co-molded to a bladder-molded outer layer. The machines that make the Sub9, for example, cost over $100,000 apiece. That's the ONLY wheel those machines make. Zipp has 12 of them. Zipp's marketing "department" is one single guy named Andy. Zipp's engineering department is 12 people.

Yes, Zipps cost more. No, they are not 30+% faster than HEDs despite being more than 30% (in general) more expensive. But that additional cost is NOT because of marketing.

I don't know the exact amounts of what HED makes per wheel, only about what they "could" make based on discussions about how much it would cost to have someone like Gigantex make Zipp wheels in Asia. But based off those sort of discussions about what Zipps would cost if they were made the same way as HED, the margin per wheel is actually higher for a HED than for Zipp. That's an estimate of course, as I definitely do not have access to HED's accounting records. But I do know how *little* Zipp actually makes per wheel (no, I won't share). I do not begrudge anyone saying that they don't feel like paying more for wheels that are aerodynamically similar. That's fine. But please, please stop attributing that cost to marketing. If you want to object to the high cost of American labor, American business taxes, etc. be my guest. But stick to those facts.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Man ..... that last post Rapp was a STRETCH!

The cost of Zipps are so high not because of manufacturing, because we have the same machines. If we dont then we have to pay the companies that have the machines and I can guarantee that isnt cheap!

Zipp is a huge company compared to HED. I would probably say 3x as big. We focus on wheels and bars, thats it. Zipp/SRAM has wheels, bars, more wheels, components etc... all of that costs money.

You say it the process to make the stuff, its to pay the 12 engineers and that is just for the wheels, builders, sales reps, lord knows who else. You cant tell me that cost of business isnt reflected into the cost of the wheels?

How many guys did Zipp sent to the tour? We sent 2. The expense of sending the 2 for a month was a stretch for the company. Im sure Zipp sent more than 2 people. Yes Zipp paid for them, but those costs are all absorbed into the wheels, eventually. Its business!

We have 3 sales guys, who also are the marketing guys and occasional wheel builders. The fact is, the smaller the operation the more the consumer saves. It isnt the process to build the wheels.

If that was the case the Bontrager wheels would be the most expensive wheels out there. The fact they are still lower than Zipps just indicates the cost is in the company expenses. Bontrager/Trek is a bigger company than Zipp and have a lot more "things" they are working on. They are still cheaper. They have more machines that do lord knows what. Im sure they have more expenses than Zipp and HED put together times 2.

And also, we sponsor 3 ProTour teams


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 18:31
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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So Vince you guys gonna make a carbon clincher jet so we get some competition in that space?

Should my Jet90 ever die on me might have to go zipp at the moment =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I've been rocking Stinger 60/90 combo with 23mm Conti's for a year now and they are solid and fast. On my tri team it's a pretty even split between Zipp and Hed for rim choice and it really comes down to personal preference and $$. Having said that, I don't feel the need to look elsewhere for any additional gains I may or may not get from a different set of wheels, the Hed's are doing a far better job than I am at staying aero. And you want to talk about smooth hubs!?!? Occasionally I spin the front tire and sit there for an eternity until it begins to slow down, spun them the other day and went to grab a 6 pack down the road, came back and my dog was just starring at the damn thing still spinning 12mph on the speedo, had to pull the brake to stop it. Hed is quality, everyone knows it. Just my $0.02...

oh - plus they look pimp on my bike, what more is there really?

_________________________
I got nothing.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Like I said, Interbike will be fun this year :)


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Need4Speed305] [ In reply to ]
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x2 on the hubs. The new Flamme Rouge hubs are buttery smooth. I used Hed Ardennes as my crit wheels this year, and loved 'em. Perfect crit wheel - I wouldn't use a carbon clincher given the NASCAR-style pileups that happen in crits, but the scandium/titanium HEDs are bombproof, stiff, and corner well with the wider profile.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Man ..... that last post Rapp was a STRETCH!

The cost of Zipps are so high not because of manufacturing, because we have the same machines. If we dont then we have to pay the companies that have the machines and I can guarantee that isnt cheap!

Zipp is a huge company compared to HED. I would probably say 3x as big. We focus on wheels and bars, thats it. Zipp/SRAM has wheels, bars, more wheels, components etc... all of that costs money.

You say it the process to make the stuff, its to pay the 12 engineers and that is just for the wheels, builders, sales reps, lord knows who else. You cant tell me that cost of business isnt reflected into the cost of the wheels?

How many guys did Zipp sent to the tour? We sent 2. The expense of sending the 2 for a month was a stretch for the company. Im sure Zipp sent more than 2 people. Yes Zipp paid for them, but those costs are all absorbed into the wheels, eventually. Its business!

We have 3 sales guys, who also are the marketing guys and occasional wheel builders. The fact is, the smaller the operation the more the consumer saves. It isnt the process to build the wheels.

If that was the case the Bontrager wheels would be the most expensive wheels out there. The fact they are still lower than Zipps just indicates the cost is in the company expenses. Bontrager/Trek is a bigger company than Zipp and have a lot more "things" they are working on. They are still cheaper. They have more machines that do lord knows what. Im sure they have more expenses than Zipp and HED put together times 2.

And also, we sponsor 3 ProTour teams

The only thing that is a stretch is your obtuseness. Really, you are going to tell me that paying a company that has the molding machines is the same as actually buying them yourself? Seriously?

And, even with the machines you do own, you do not have the same machines as Zipp. The machines that makes the sub9 have fuzzy logic control to center the hub in the molded wheel as it cures. They can also simultaneously bladder mold the exterior hoop and mold the nomex core center section simultaneously. I must have missed where you have a wheel that was structurally equivalent. Furthermore, with the Stingers, you don't actually own the machines, your mfr in Taiwan does. That's a huge cost. And the machines used to bond a fairing onto a rim are different than what Zipp requires to co-mold their wheels. You make your wheels differently than they do. So, no, you do not have the same machine. And paying the company that has the machines for those wheels that are made the same is VERY different than actually paying to own the machines yourself.

My point was primarily that Zipp's advertising budget is not substantially different than yours. It's NOT marketing that adds to the cost of the wheel.

Furthermore, Zipp's costs have not changed appreciably since SRAM took over. In case you forgot, they made many of these wheels long before SRAM ever bought them. Zipp and Zipp/SRAM are in many ways now the same company, but Zipp still largely operates as an independent entity.

"The fact is, the smaller the operation the more the consumer saves." If ever there was a stretch statement, TAHT was it. That simply belies a total lack of understanding of basic economics.

Yes, the cost of doing business adds to the cost of the wheels. But Zipp also sells more wheels than HED. The basic production costs of Zipps wheels is definitively and substantially higher than HEDs. If you want to really want to debate that, I'm ready and willing.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Is there an "IGNORE" option for individuals on the forums? I love the technical discussion and debate but the propaganda and arguing over who has a bigger dick doesn't really interest me.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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It's all good, it's a company man getting answers from the company. The fact is bigger companies have more expenses that eventually the customer is payinG for. Fancy Machine or no machine. The customer is paying.

You can spin it all you want but in the end our wheels are faster and more importantly to the consumer, less expensive.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 20:50
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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To the gentlemen from Zipp and Hed, your professionalism is appreciated. Very classy. Thanks.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rapp, why should a customer pay 30% more for Zipp wheels?

The aero performance is the same (virtually, or less, virtually) than HED. There's nothing to prove that in the real world, Zipp wheels are stronger because of their construction (everyone knows someone who's broken a Zipp rim, and I'm sure there's plenty of HED stories if you ask around enough). So why should the consumer pay more?

You state the HED makes more profit on their wheels than Zipp. Maybe I misread your tone, but it seemed like you expected the reader to have a bad taste in their mouth after finding that out. In actuality, congrats to HED for making that extra profit and still keeping costs down to the customer and providing solid products to the consumer.

Perhaps, I lack a basic understanding of economics as well (though my collegiate Econ professors would strongly disagree), but the operational differences that you describe between the two companies would point towards HED having the better business model in the long term.

I'm asking you, respectfully, to entertain my questions because I do ask with an open mind. FWIW though, your statement about Vince's obtuseness was a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The only thing that is a stretch is your obtuseness.

Ouch! That hardly seems necessary.

Zipps are priced more than comparable HED's. However, the consuming public will never know what percentage of that difference is attributable to COGS (as opposed to marketing or licensing or R&D or G&A or just plain profit) unless the companies open up their books - which they have no obligation to do for us. It would be interesting to know.

It may very well be that Zipps cost more than HEDs (or other wheels) to manufacture. In fact, if the bulk of the labor used to manufacture Zipps is performed in the US as opposed to Taiwan, then I think we can be pretty certain Zipps do cost more to make. It may also be that the materials used are more expensive. I actually doubt that ownership of the "machines" has much to do with the cost however. The machines are expensive but the owner gets to amortize that expense over time (and receive tax breaks due to the depreciation) and, in any event, whoever owns the "machines" used to make HEDs will incorporate the ownership costs in the price they charge HED.

Also I don't think we can ignore marketing (or at least branding) - not necessarily as a cost but as an explanation for pricing differences. I think it's fair to say that Zipp has positioned itself (very successfully) in the market as the "premium brand". It seems that HED positions itself as the technologically advanced "value brand". There's nothing wrong with either approach. In fact, one really couldn't exist effectively without the other.

What I'm trying to say is that Zipp and HED both seem to be well run businesses that make good products and, in fact, probably complement each other in the market even if they are competitors. So don't be hatin' on each other!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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It's true that bigger companies have more expenses. That's why they are bigger, by definition (at least by stock market capitalization, earnings, all those fancy "business" terms.) It is downright dumb to say that being larger will necesarily raise costs for consumers. In fact, the opposite is generally true. There is a phrase for this - "economies of scale".

When have have large capital investments, such as machine tools or manufacturing plants, you have LOWER costs per unit as you produce more. This is BASIC economics. And yes, I do have a degree in that subject, among others.

There are many reasons why a particular wheel might be better than another. Being from a smaller (or larger) company is not one of them. Trying to claim that just ruins all any credibility you might have. If you bring some real data to the table I might listen, although if you engineering knowledge is as weak as your economics knowledge you won't get very far.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Steve B] [ In reply to ]
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Personally, I'm tired of this thread. We are just beating a dead horse here.

Some people like Ford some Chevy, people are republicans some are democrats some are HED some are ZIPP. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong. Each person has their own reason for liking what they like. Either its speed, cost, American, International who knows, honestly, who cares!

Both companies are trailblazers in the cycling world like I said on page ... who the hell knows ...... the competition is good for the end result, the customer.

We can go on forever comparing what the 2 companies do but what is that going to prove ...... nothing.

I say we end this because in 3 months when the new stuff comes out at Eurobike/Interbike this test is null and outdated because the new wheels are coming that will be faster then the ones tested. That is from both HED and Zipp, hell, Easton could have a wheel that nobody knows about that beats everybody.

That is what is exciting about competition. You never know what the next day will have in store for you.

With that being said, Jordan please continue your rehab and get back out there. We all miss you racing, you have always had my respect and all that you have been through lately you will always have my support.

As for me, please come say hi and introduce yourself at Interbike this year.

Vince


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Rapp, why should a customer pay 30% more for Zipp wheels?

The aero performance is the same (virtually, or less, virtually) than HED. There's nothing to prove that in the real world, Zipp wheels are stronger because of their construction (everyone knows someone who's broken a Zipp rim, and I'm sure there's plenty of HED stories if you ask around enough). So why should the consumer pay more?

You state the HED makes more profit on their wheels than Zipp. Maybe I misread your tone, but it seemed like you expected the reader to have a bad taste in their mouth after finding that out. In actuality, congrats to HED for making that extra profit and still keeping costs down to the customer and providing solid products to the consumer.

Perhaps, I lack a basic understanding of economics as well (though my collegiate Econ professors would strongly disagree), but the operational differences that you describe between the two companies would point towards HED having the better business model in the long term.

I'm asking you, respectfully, to entertain my questions because I do ask with an open mind. FWIW though, your statement about Vince's obtuseness was a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

I definitely do not expect that customers will have a bad taste about HED making a profit, nor do I wish them to have it. What bothers me is the bad taste that many customers seem to carry in their mouth regarding Zipp's "massive marketing budget." All I wish is to dispel that notion. Zipp's are more expensive than HED, that is true. Their marketing budget is has virtually nothing to do with that.

As far as whether or not Zipp or HED's business model makes more sense, you are most correct in that HED's seems to make more sense. That's why virtually every bike company in the world has outsourced the majority of their manufacturing to Asia. In many ways, Zipp exists as a sort of strange thought experiment. It may not make the most fundamental sense from an economic standpoint, but that's the choice they make. And they make it knowingly.

As to why I think that it's worth paying 30% more for Zipps, I'll give a story that I think sums of what you get when you pay for a Zipp wheel. The story was chronicled in Velonew's article on Zipp from a while back, so I'll just cut-n-paste it from there. I knew the story before the article, but the article does a great job of telling it. So I hope that you don't mind me "plagiarizing" it.

Zipp Speed Weaponry’s story might be summed up in a tale about a drill bit. During a tour of the facility, engineer Josh Poertner stopped at the spoke-hole drilling station. Holding up a bit, about 3 inches long and maybe a quarter-inch in diameter, he said, “It took us almost four years to design this.”

Poertner told of another tour he guided a few years ago, for SRAM upper management and investors prior to SRAM’s purchase of Zipp. “(SRAM) brought their head composite guy in from Hong Kong, and he didn’t say a word for the whole factory visit. We got to spoke-hole drilling, and he’s watching the drilling, and he pulled out his magnifying glass and looked at this bit, and says, ‘We should buy you for this drill bit.’”


The rest of that story is here: http://velonews.competitor.com/...eel-maker-zipp_92589

It's that sort of thing that is why Zipp chooses to business the way that they do. Does it add cost - substantial cost - the their wheels? Yes. Is that cost worth it? I guess it depends on what matters to you.

You are most welcome to your opinion that I'm the pot calling the kettle black. Perhaps we share a difference on opinion on what exactly obtuseness means in this particular regard. I don't wish to be that kettle calling the pot any more black than I may already have, so I'll just leave it at that.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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As an end user that isn't in America (so not patriotic need to buy US made) here's my take on a few thigns.

Zipp and HED are aerodynamically similar (i.e. performance basically equivalent) and it seems both companies are openly acknowledging that - the differences are splitting the split ends of hair.

Zipp are more expensive - there is no denying that. The reasons - open to debate, but I agree with Rappstar I don't recall there being a stack more Zipp advertisements then HED. Does the reason really matter - Zipp may have higher labor costs, they might give away more product, they might pay for more staff to attend the tour etc... Really, it's irrelevant as to why - the fact is the wheels cost more.

So performance the same, but expense different - all that is left is for people to start slinging mud to dirty the other's products because the two things that matter, performance and cost are open for all to see.

I find it laughable that anyone would think chinese carbon fibre is somehow a lower quality then American. Give it up anyone trying to claim that a wheel is better because it is made by an American Citizen as opposed to a citizen of an Asian country. That is pathetic.

Maybe Zipps research manufacturing costs are higher, if so, they need to somehow investigate this as their increased expenditure isn't producing faster wheels.

Oh, and joshatzipp claimed that Cav won't ride anything but zipp - and then we have pictures and statements that he actually rides HED's sometimes.

desperate claims and competitor bashing going on here and nobody is really looking any good out of it all. It's like two old ladies arguing at a country fair as to who has the best apple pie.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with your thoughts, also as a 'non American' perspective...

We sat and talked with Terenzo recently about sponsorship opportunities in the US, he was giving my wife Sam some advice and thoughts. T talked about how his relationship started with Zipp, how he initially believed in their product so strongly he bought his wheels whilst being offered free deals elsewhere, and how it has grown over the years and both parties have benefited as a result. He couldn't of talked highly enough about the product and support.

Two weeks ago at Racine we realised upon arrival that we'd totally screwed up our choice of wheels for Sam, and the very next day a replacement wheel turned up courtesy of Vince at HED. This is not un common for HED either, their *pro customer support is second to non IMHO - Sam has dealt with other wheel companies and HED are head and shoulders above anything else we've seen.

I'm sure I'm setting myself up here for some smart arse to say..ahh that's where all the marketing budget is going...

But - I think we should all remember that without companies such as HED and Zipp, we'd all still be rattling around on our GP4's or MA40's. They're both great supporters of triathlon, whether at the pro end or age group.

I'm just coming to terms with Yaw and drag, and everything else that affects that bike split - I don't think I actually want the HED/Zipp debate to EVER finish, it's like training for a race - I'm learning far too much from the process!

Thanks guys.
r
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [ In reply to ]
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The HEDs are ~100g heavier than the Zipps.

The Flamme Rouge upgrade narrows that to a handful of grams, but also considerably narrows the price difference as well.

I will be visiting both at Interbike!

And, to Salmon Steve... I still race cross on a GP4, and if you want to hop in the way-back machine, I've got a GL330 rattling around somewhere. Is a Super Record 5spd derailleur worth anything?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [RebeccaCreekKid] [ In reply to ]
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I've still got some Dura Ace 6 speed stuff.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [RebeccaCreekKid] [ In reply to ]
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Since I sold my Tarmac SL (for paint?!) I'm currently building up my old SL frame from 92, had it re-sprayed and I've cleaned up all my old dura ace from back then (always wondered why I hoard stuff..) . Just need a 1A stem and Cinelli Criterium 42 combo to make it authentic.

I'm guessin it's gonna be awesome to look at...and shite to ride!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"The fact is, the smaller the operation the more the consumer saves." If ever there was a stretch statement, THAT was it. That simply belies a total lack of understanding of basic economics.

HAHA, I was thinking the same thing. I guess he is unaware of the principle of economies of scale. I think Lightweight is a pretty small operation and no consumers rave about how much money they save buying those wheels!



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Of course there is the story of how NASA spent millions to develop a pen that would write in zero gravity and the Russians just use a pencil. Seems like Edges system of molding in holes vs cutting fibers would be a better, and possibly less expensive solution.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Of course there is the story of how NASA spent millions to develop a pen that would write in zero gravity and the Russians just use a pencil. Seems like Edges system of molding in holes vs cutting fibers would be a better, and possibly less expensive solution.

Styrrell

Fair counter example, except that I don't know that any outside observer ever said something equivalent to "we should buy NASA just for this pen" after the whole process was done. The story about the drill bit is impressive, but what really highlights it is that the composite engineers from SRAM recognized the value in that IP. In other words, it wasn't just Zipp saying we took four years to make an awesome drill bit. The value was/is clearly there, unlike the NASA pen.

I don't know enough about Edge's system to make any sort of fair comparison, but off the cuff that would seem to necessitate a different mold for each # of spokes patterns. That would seem to either add a LOT of cost or it would seem to really limit how many different drillings you could offer. But that's a guess. I would be interested to talk with the guys at Edge at I'bike to learn more about it, assuming they'd share.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"I don't know enough about Edge's system to make any sort of fair comparison,"

And that was my point in posting my comment. You also don't know a lot about Zipps economics, and virtually nothing about HEDs. You may know what ZIPP internally says their margins are, but at most companies those really aren't calculated particularly exactly.

All I'm saying is much like with aero claims, where we say show me the protocal, we should stay away from talking about cost and profits unless you can show the books.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
As an end user that isn't in America (so not patriotic need to buy US made) here's my take on a few thigns.

Zipp and HED are aerodynamically similar (i.e. performance basically equivalent) and it seems both companies are openly acknowledging that - the differences are splitting the split ends of hair.

Zipp are more expensive - there is no denying that. The reasons - open to debate, but I agree with Rappstar I don't recall there being a stack more Zipp advertisements then HED. Does the reason really matter - Zipp may have higher labor costs, they might give away more product, they might pay for more staff to attend the tour etc... Really, it's irrelevant as to why - the fact is the wheels cost more.

So performance the same, but expense different - all that is left is for people to start slinging mud to dirty the other's products because the two things that matter, performance and cost are open for all to see.

I find it laughable that anyone would think chinese carbon fibre is somehow a lower quality then American. Give it up anyone trying to claim that a wheel is better because it is made by an American Citizen as opposed to a citizen of an Asian country. That is pathetic.

Maybe Zipps research manufacturing costs are higher, if so, they need to somehow investigate this as their increased expenditure isn't producing faster wheels.

Oh, and joshatzipp claimed that Cav won't ride anything but zipp - and then we have pictures and statements that he actually rides HED's sometimes.

desperate claims and competitor bashing going on here and nobody is really looking any good out of it all. It's like two old ladies arguing at a country fair as to who has the best apple pie.

The *aero* performance is the same. That may be all that matters, and the other differences may be "unnecessary" from the standpoint of the consumer and are also - generally - speaking, harder to measure. And maybe, in many cases, "good enough" actually is plenty good enough. Taking the Jets (fairing bonded onto a structurally complete/sound wheel) vs. Zipp's aluminum-rimmed (co-molded with a structurally essentially carbon section) clinchers as an example, what end benefit does the customer really see? I think that's very debatable. And it's definitely a debate I love to have, but I'll save having that. Keep in mind that according to UCI regs, the Jets *should* be illegal - but because the UCI is so weird, they aren't. But if you read the letter of the UCI rules - and want to make sure your product is allowed - then *technically,* you'd have to build clinchers the way Zipp does.

I don't think anyone would say that Chinese carbon fiber is of lower quality than American - certainly I wouldn't. The reason that Zipp sources and manufactures the way that they do is because they believe it gives them more strict control over quality and, yes, they believe in supporting American businesses. The Chinese make fantastic products out of fantastic materials. But there is also a lot of IT stealing - another very major reason Zipp keeps everything in house. And, having dealt extensively with sourcing product from China in my previous job, there's also other reasons - perhaps ethical ones that don't particularly matter to some people - to manufacture here. If the end product is the same, that's all people care about. But some people also may care about how workers are treated, safety of the environment, etc. That's probably a discussion for the Lavender Room though. And please do not imply that I am saying that quality of the end product is the overwhelming concern. It's more that Zipp wishes to be able to exert day-to-day oversight of their quality. That's important to them.

I realize that it's inevitable that this will be seen as "mud slinging," but that's certainly not my intent. My intent is for there to be simple and clear discussions about the wheels. For example, as I stated in my first post - the wheel was tested with a tire that would void the warranty. The reason for voiding the warranty is never really covered by HED, who simply says that a wider tire is recommended for optimal performance. But if you read the Velonews article, you'll see that the wheel they tested - mounted with a 21mm tire - already showed signs of impact damage to the rim. That's not "mud slinging," that's fact. The reason for that is the excessively deep tire bed on that rim, which is also a major part of why it's fast. Of course, every time I try to have a simple discussion about those sort of things, it inevitably ends up looking like an attack on HED, so then an attack is made on Zipp, and I feel obliged to correct certain mis-statements, like the notion of Zipp's massive advert budget. But keep in mind, we still haven't been able to get a clear answer on the fact that there seem to be two different versions of the S9 - not the S90 vs S9 - but two very different shapes of the S9, at least based on the measurements that have been provided by different folks here and also provided by Josh. So, yes, it appeared like mud slinging, but if you re-read this now very lengthy thread, I was simply pointing out some very relevant issues that I think are very real and factual differences that the end consumer will care about.

Secondly, in terms of the increased expenditure not producing faster wheels, why don't you look at the release timeline of the fastest wheels that have been released lately. The 900 clincher disc - the first bulged disc, the Sub9 - the first wheel to generate negative drag in the tunnel, the 404 carbon clincher & new Firecrest rim shape. Zipp has been ahead of HED in terms of major design breakthroughs every single time. This latest iteration of the Stinger 9 is the first time that HED has come out with a faster wheel before Zipp, and it's rife with problems - not fitting certain frames, not fitting certain brakes, can't be run with narrower tires, etc. All of which are detailed in the Velonews article. Does being first to market - and actually coming up with ideas - cost a lot? Yes. It's a lot more expensive to do the R&D to create a bulged disc than to simply see that it's faster and make one.

As Josh's statements regarding Cav, that's what Cav told him. Cav thanks Zipp in his book. The fact that sometimes the team puts HEDs under him should not be interpreted as Josh giving misinformation. Maybe he needed to swap bikes? Maybe he got a flat? Who knows. When HED sponsors a team, I can imagine plenty of scenarios where a particular rider who requires special personal equipment ends up on team equipment.

At the end of the day, HED makes pretty much equally fast wheels that are a lot cheaper than Zipps. If that's what matters to you, fine. But that's not - in my opinion - the whole story.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"I don't know enough about Edge's system to make any sort of fair comparison,"

And that was my point in posting my comment. You also don't know a lot about Zipps economics, and virtually nothing about HEDs. You may know what ZIPP internally says their margins are, but at most companies those really aren't calculated particularly exactly.

All I'm saying is much like with aero claims, where we say show me the protocal, we should stay away from talking about cost and profits unless you can show the books.

Styrrell

I probably know more than you think about what Zipp's economics, but it doesn't really matter, because it's not what I know, it's what I can share. In any case, I'd be happy to shelve any and all discussion of economics if everyone would be willing to shelve the argument that Zipps costs more because they spend that much more on marketing than HED.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Ok share one thing, seeing as its not likely to be very proprietary. How long does Zipp take to amortize the cost of the disk molding machine versus the actual life of the machine until its out of use, inculuding maintenance on said machine?

I'm not concerned with you saying Zipps advertising budget is a small fraction of the cost of making their wheels and its silly to use that as a basis for a buying decision. It when you you give that opinion creedance by trying to estimate other companies costs and business practices that you start to look silly.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

I'm not concerned with you saying Zipps advertising budget is a small fraction of the cost of making their wheels and its silly to use that as a basis for a buying decision. It when you you give that opinion creedance by trying to estimate other companies costs and business practices that you start to look silly.

Styrrell


I don't think it's silly at all, since a ton of people have suggested that you're paying more for Zipp than HED because of "advertising". I think it's worth pointing out that HED sponsors more pro tour teams than Zipp, and most likely their construction costs are lower. That's my take on it at least.

As far as the actual performance of the wheels (directed to no one in particular), I will say that there's more to life than aero. I've used almost all of the wheels mentioned pretty extensively. I ended up ditching the Stinger 6 because of fitment issues and the Stinger 9 because of handling issues (and I'm pretty much a ninja when it comes to handling deep wheels. High speed descents in a pack w/an S9=no fun). The braking of both wheels in the rain was also a deal breaker, and the Zipps excel in this area. If the new Stinger 9 is as wide as the S6 (which it seems to be), there are definitely going to be fitment issues with it. The S6 even rubs some FORKS, forget about brakes.

Lastly, while I was giving Jordan a hard time earlier, the fact is he was right on the facts, and has been more factually correct on the details of Hed's own wheels. There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that. I think some folks need to read the discussion a little more carefully before casting stones.
Last edited by: roady: Jul 31, 10 9:50
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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The length of time that the cost of the machines are amortized from an accounting perspective are predetermined based on GAAP (accounting) and IRS (tax) rules, the two of which are likely different. They may in fact use what they consider to be the useful life in analyzing the cost structure of their products used to determine price. It is highly likely that the real life of the machines (at least for their intended application) is less than accounting and tax rules. When a machine (or any company asset) is taken out of service permanently you must take a charge for the remaining asset value, a hit to your earnings (but also a tax deduction). All of which occurs sometime after you paid for or borrowed to pay for the equipment.

One of the points mentioned earlier that costs of using someone else's (Taiwanese) machine would be the same. That is if they are not also producing products for other companies on the same machines which is often the case (at least in bike frame manufacturing, so I would assume wheels too), unless they are contractually obligated to not produce same or similar products. The contractual obligation also does not necessarily keep them from doing that. Although as capitalism becomes more and more prevasive in China/Taiwan more and more of those companies are conducting business in an honest fashion since they too develop IP they would like to protect.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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You guys should do some serious research on that statement. I think you would be suprised on the differences and costs between bigger businesses and smaller ones.

Just because a company is bigger doesn't mean everything costs less.

jaretj
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Just because a company is bigger doesn't mean everything costs less.

I understand that. But the inverse as claimed by VinceatHED isn't true either, that just because a company is smaller its products are cheaper.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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While I agree with your premise of your posts, you can pretty easily see that a zipp rim is harder to build (and thus likely a lot more expensive to make, with lower yields) than a "traditional" carbon rim from overseas by looking at their respective cross-sections. That, and using US labor, developing all those nasty bits for manufacturing, Zipps trend to try a lot of different products, etc. all increase costs. I'm not saying they're justified. I'm not saying Zipp is using a wise business model (are they making money applying their composites knowledge to the local racecar industry?). I'm not even saying that the entire difference in cost between hed and zipp is in the overall cost of designing and building the wheel. I'm just saying it's not hard to find out why a zipp wheel costs more.

And I ride Hed wheels, so I'd like to think I don't suffer from some amount of fanboyism. I balk at Zipp's prices. Then again, I balk at Hed's prices too, but I got mine used for a steal.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Ok share one thing, seeing as its not likely to be very proprietary. How long does Zipp take to amortize the cost of the disk molding machine versus the actual life of the machine until its out of use, inculuding maintenance on said machine?

I'm not concerned with you saying Zipps advertising budget is a small fraction of the cost of making their wheels and its silly to use that as a basis for a buying decision. It when you you give that opinion creedance by trying to estimate other companies costs and business practices that you start to look silly.

Styrrell

It would depend on the machine. The machines that mold the super9 and 900 tubular disc do not have to bladder mold the outer "bulge" like the machines that do the 900 clincher and sub9 do, and therefore have a lower cost. Though I'm guessing you are asking for a "for instance," and I will find out if that's something I can share. So it may have to wait until Monday to actually get permission. But I will let you know if I can or if I cannot - and why I cannot if that's the case.

I agree with your assessment that trying to estimate another companies budget as a whole is a silly exercise. But keep in mind that there was a massive thread on this very forum about doing a "mass wheel buy" from Taiwan. So it's not that hard for me to say, "if Zipp wanted to have the 808 tubular made in China, this is what it would cost." I would say it was likely bad wording on my part. Rather, I should have simply said, Zipp could make more money per wheel and sell their wheels for a lot less if they elected to have their hoops made in China. That would have been simpler and more straightforward.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [electusunus] [ In reply to ]
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The german mags are a joke, the Tri one was renounced for all the mistakes in their "testing" protocols. Tours magically has Continentals (big advertiser) as the faster tires, contrary all all the legit independent testing.

Now, I may have been a bit hasty on the 1080 vs Stinger 90 from call, as I don't have the test results article I was recalling. But that said, with warranty covered tires on the front wheels and through a wide range of wind angles rides will see in a 40k TT, I believe the 1080 being deeper, with a fast shape will be faster. However, if Vince wants to send me a Stinger 90 front I have some 40K TT's coming up and I can do some informal testing. . .
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Rappstar and All,

What optimum tire size does Zipp recommend for the new carbon rim 404 clincher for a front wheel for IM triathlon?

I weigh 155 lbs. I am thinking the new Bonty 22mm R4 Aero would be OK, but there must be an optimum size for best aero/Crr qualities. (Aero qualities to be titrated or iterated against best Crr for best overall performance)

http://bontrager.com/model/09124

I see on the website that recommended tire size range is 20-34mm and not to exceed 125 psi.

http://www.zipp.com/.../404-carbon-clincher

I expect that rules out the 19mm Bonty.

Also is there any problem using velo plugs vs. rim tape with that wheel?

What size are the spoke holes?

http://veloplug.com/

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Hello Rappstar and All,

What optimum tire size does Zipp recommend for the new carbon rim 404 clincher for a front wheel for IM triathlon?

I weigh 155 lbs. I am thinking the new Bonty 22mm R4 Aero would be OK, but there must be an optimum size for best aero/Crr qualities. (Aero qualities to be titrated or iterated against best Crr for best overall performance)

http://bontrager.com/model/09124

I see on the website that recommended tire size range is 20-34mm and not to exceed 125 psi.

http://www.zipp.com/.../404-carbon-clincher

I expect that rules out the 19mm Bonty.

Also is there any problem using velo plugs vs. rim tape with that wheel?

What size are the spoke holes?

http://veloplug.com/

Cheers,

Neal

21 is going to be fastest - or likely even a 20 - but the penalty for going to a 23 vs 21 may be minimal - depending on your definition of minimal. I prefer to run 23s for most races because of an increased air volume (even accounting for recommended differences in tire pressure). But 21 - or even 20 - is going to be fastest. If you want some good data on balancing aero/Crr I'd encourage you to buy Kraig Willett's paper testing exactly that. The problem with running 19s is that you are really prone to pinch flats and the potential for rim damage is much higher. But really, there isn't really an optimum "size" for balancing best Crr/aero, because you could have a narrow tire with a REALLY crappy Crr. Or a wider tire with an extraordinarily low Crr. And it's also speed dependent if you want to balance drag (which is cubic) and crr (which is linear). So that's not really a question with one single answer. I guess the simple - though not really helpful - answer is that "it depends on the tire."

There are no problems with Veloplugs that I know of. But again, that's maybe not the most common question, so I will double check for you.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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Actually it can be true...Seriously

Don't take my word for it, talk to a sucessful small businessman, they will tell you.

jaretj
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Rappstar and All,

Quick reply.

Good advice on Kraig's paper - I have most information on what he has tested and he ran my SD Low Speed wind tunnel tests.

http://biketechreview.com/...l-testing?format=pdf

I guess I was looking for outlier information since the rim shape is different than in the past - thought maybe there was some odd dis continous or unexpected portion of the tire/rim drag curve that might make it optimum for a very particular tire size. If not then conventional wisdom should work for tire selection. If the aero differences are small for 20mm to 23mm then that is the range I will look at and go with best Crr considering reasonable durability.

I like the thought that I can run a slightly fatter tire (better Crr usually) with the new rim and still have good aero performance.

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Since this thread has turned into a ZIPP vs HED debate in a lot of ways, I am going to go ahead and state up front that I am a sales rep for Zipp, just so it is clear.

To answer your question neal, The fastest tire I have seen in test results was the 21mm Tangente on the 404CC. I would guess that the Bonty tire you mentioned would be a good fit, but as always with that tire, how it integrates with the rim is critical. I haven't seen one mounted on that rim yet. Keep in mind that the rims are designed with the Tangente in mind, and it is a really nice tire. I personally recommend the 23mm Tangente, I just think it rides better. But the narrower tire does test faster. I don't think you would want to use the 19mm Bonty.

I am not a huge fan of Veloplugs, but I don't see why you couldn't use them, but again, I have not seen them used with that rim yet. I think when you see the new rim strip that ships with those wheels, you may decided you want to use it. They are really nice. I do not have the spoke hole size here, and my wheels are currently at a dealer on a test ride, so I can't measure them.

As far as tire pressure, that is pretty much personal preference within the limits of the rim. I would guess that around 110 would be a good pressure for you in dry conditions on a fairly smooth course, maybe a little lower. Drop 5psi or so for rough course or rain. Again, just my personal recommendation. I think tire pressure depends more on the tire than the rim (again within the limits of the rim).

Personally, I have really enjoyed sitting on the sidelines of this debate. I think Josh, Rappstar and Vince have all provided some good info. I personally didn't see any mud slinging on either side, both sides really stuck to why they felt their product was superior, neither really talked about why they thought the other brand was junk, and as someone who has worked in this industry for a long time, I think both companies have a lot of respect for each other.

The only thing I am really curious about is the apparent difference in measurement of the 2 versions of the Stinger. I would like to know if Vince saw the wheel tested, or he is just repeating what he was told, that it is the same as what he is currently selling. We sales guys are basically parrots in a lot of cases, we just repeat what we are told.

I am excited to see what awaits at interbike, I have a feeling that the end users are going to be the big winners here, it looks like both companies are going to have some cool new stuff, and even though I am a bit biased thanks to my employment, I am still a bike geek, and I like seeing cool stuff, no matter who makes it.


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Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bikescott] [ In reply to ]
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There's a pic of the new Bonty tire mounted up by Tom A. on a pair of 404 CC prototypes that I loaned him; just do a quick search. It mounts up very nicely. Of course, I have a personal bias towards the tangentes, but the R4 looks like a great match.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Zipp Speed Weaponry’s story might be summed up in a tale about a drill bit. During a tour of the facility, engineer Josh Poertner stopped at the spoke-hole drilling station. Holding up a bit, about 3 inches long and maybe a quarter-inch in diameter, he said, “It took us almost four years to design this.”

And I suppose all of their amps go to 11...



Drinking beer since 1969
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
For example, as I stated in my first post - the wheel was tested with a tire that would void the warranty. The reason for voiding the warranty is never really covered by HED, who simply says that a wider tire is recommended for optimal performance. But if you read the Velonews article, you'll see that the wheel they tested - mounted with a 21mm tire - already showed signs of impact damage to the rim. That's not "mud slinging," that's fact. The reason for that is the excessively deep tire bed on that rim, which is also a major part of why it's fast.

You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...

If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...


If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.

Yeah...but if just running too small of a tire can likely cause rim damage (as the VN folks find out), will you be able to avoid it just rolling to a stop after flatting?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...


If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.


Yeah...but if just running too small of a tire can likely cause rim damage (as the VN folks find out), will you be able to avoid it just rolling to a stop after flatting?

Valid question. My experience is that you would avoid damage if you were running the proper tire and stop as quickly as feasible.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...


If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.


It depends on the importance of the race you are doing. My son stopped immediately after loosing all the air last Sunday on a road race, while climbing after flatting a HED rear tubular wheel. The $200 he won in that race arriving in third place was not worth ruining the wheel (even if it costs $200 to replace the wheel if crashed). On some other more important races he has kept going until the support car shows up (and surprisingly has not managed to ruin the tubular wheel). Hitting a ditch at high speed is another story.

Crash replacement policies are important if you road race more than 50 times per year. I have not put Zipp to the test on this one, but HED wheels come with a lifetime crash replacement policy enabling the original owner of a crash to replace the damaged wheel at a substantial savings. From my experience, HED gets a star on the forehead on this one... and on several other times I have asked for technical support.

Sergio

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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Zipp has the same basic program. I believe the stated limit is 5 years, but that is in place simply because often there are so many changes in 5 years that parts are often not available to fix as a crash replacement. I have never seen Zipp refuse to fix a wheel that parts were available for, regardless of the age.

The cost is usually in the $400-500 range, depending on which rim, and if the hub needs service/parts as well.


---------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bikescott] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Zipp has the same basic program. I believe the stated limit is 5 years, but that is in place simply because often there are so many changes in 5 years that parts are often not available to fix as a crash replacement. I have never seen Zipp refuse to fix a wheel that parts were available for, regardless of the age.

The cost is usually in the $400-500 range, depending on which rim, and if the hub needs service/parts as well.

The costs for the Zipp No Fault/Crash Replacement program depends on where you live. Here in the Netherlands it's different than in the US. Here you can get a 15% reduction in price of the rim when you crack your rim. My 404 clincher rim cracked at a spoke hole and I got lucky that they would replace it although I cracked my rim after the two year warranty period.

Another important point of a crash replacement/no fault replacement would be how fast Zipp/Hed can replace the damaged wheel. I did sent my Zipp 404 powertap wheel to the local distributor in May but I still don't have my training and race wheel equipped with a powertap, so I have to borrow a powertap wheel to train with power.

___________________________________
Paul | Medisch Info | Medisch Zoeken
Last edited by: p.VDB: Jul 31, 10 13:05
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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The 2009 model is done with a 3K carbon weave. The 2010 model is panelled with a 1K carbon weave around the brake track. The difference in appearance is that the 3k has a wider thread and the 1k is a smaller, tighter thread.

Ian Stanford
Ally's Bar. AStacher LLC
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not really interested in the actual number, just pointing out that determining "actual cost of making a wheel" is very difficult to determine, even for the company making it, let alone an outside observer. My guess is that a similar Zipp wheel costs more to make than a HED, but I wouldn't be positive.

Zipp has more $$ in machines and such as you pointed out, but HED has more $$ in shipping and outside contrctors. They also have to go to the foreign factories to make sure things are done correctly. Look at it this way, if you were starting a wheel company you would likely start by going to foreign makers, even if you had your own design. Each wheel would cost more, but the start up cost is much less.

Ican't see what a generic wheel buy has to do with HEDs wheels, they may have them manufactured in a foreign factory, but they aren't relabeling a generic design.

Of course I'm also enjoying the fact that you are a big fan of ZIPP wheels (as am I), but you keep bumping a HED is fastest thread. ;-)

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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So you basically agree with me. If you care more about the rim damage than you do the race, you will stop immediately.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [p.VDB] [ In reply to ]
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You are correct, I was referring to crash replacement in the US.
Never even thought about it being different overseas.


---------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...


If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.


Yeah...but if just running too small of a tire can likely cause rim damage (as the VN folks find out), will you be able to avoid it just rolling to a stop after flatting?


Valid question. My experience is that you would avoid damage if you were running the proper tire and stop as quickly as feasible.

If rim/tire interface of the latest Stinger 9 looks anything like this pic of a Stinger 6, heck I'd be worried about rim damage just from leaning over through a bumpy corner...even with the recommended tire size! Yeah...if you flat on that, you'd better stop REAL QUICK!





http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I've had the good fortune of racing and riding on 808s, Stinger 9s and 1080s for the past few years. My 808s were not warrantied after Zipp insisted a cracked rim was attributable to a crash and that was simply not so. I switched to Hed and sold all of my Zipps. I now am on Hed Stinger 90s/Vittoria 23 mm and love them as I feel they are much stiffer (the 808s required my opening the rear brake bridge before sprinting). Again this is one of those N = 1 things and my rear wheel was/is laced to a PT hub so the difference may be just in the hub as I went from a '08 2.4 sl to a '10 sl+ (larger axle diameter). I will say that I personally found the 1080 on the front only marginally more problematic with side winds than the 808 and the 90 seems to be somewhere in the middle under the same side wind conditions. That said, I'd like to point out my disappointment for Hed grossly misrepresenting the weight of their wheels if the VN weights are to be trusted...

The VN article has weights for mass and the 808s are 1566 grams (perhaps including skewers) which is 67 over the specs they give on their website. In contrast, the Stinger 90s weigh in at 1644 grams WHICH IS 140 GRAMS over the Hed website's specs of 1504 grams. I for one am not pleased about this since part of my purchase rationale for the 90s included the weight (recall I use these for road racing as well)!!


Perhaps this is a result of skewer differences but I doubt it.
Last edited by: xntrickly: Aug 1, 10 7:24
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.


I have a '09 Stinger9 FR (front)

does the '10 Stinger9 test faster?

has HED verified or commented on this?
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.


I have a '09 Stinger9 FR (front)

does the '10 Stinger9 test faster?

has HED verified or commented on this?

*ACCORDING TO ZIPP* the '09 Stinger9 does NOT beat an 808, but the '10 (what was tested in Velonews) does indeed beat an 808, though exactly by how much depends on tire choice, pressure, etc. But with pretty much any "reasonable" tire and pressure, the '10 S9 - what was tested by VN - is indeed faster than an 808 by a pretty fair margin, but the '10 S9 has quite a few additional concerns, all of which are highlighted by VN in the article.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [xntrickly] [ In reply to ]
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I've had the good fortune of racing and riding on 808s, Stinger 9s and 1080s for the past few years. My 808s were not warrantied after Zipp insisted a cracked rim was attributable to a crash and that was simply not so. I switched to Hed and sold all of my Zipps. I now am on Hed Stinger 90s/Vittoria 23 mm and love them as I feel they are much stiffer (the 808s required my opening the rear brake bridge before sprinting). Again this is one of those N = 1 things and my rear wheel was/is laced to a PT hub so the difference may be just in the hub as I went from a '08 2.4 sl to a '10 sl+ (larger axle diameter). I will say that I personally found the 1080 on the front only marginally more problematic with side winds than the 808 and the 90 seems to be somewhere in the middle under the same side wind conditions. That said, I'd like to point out my disappointment for Hed grossly misrepresenting the weight of their wheels if the VN weights are to be trusted...

The VN article has weights for mass and the 808s are 1566 grams (perhaps including skewers) which is 67 over the specs they give on their website. In contrast, the Stinger 90s weigh in at 1644 grams WHICH IS 140 GRAMS over the Hed website's specs of 1504 grams. I for one am not pleased about this since part of my purchase rationale for the 90s included the weight (recall I use these for road racing as well)!!


Perhaps this is a result of skewer differences but I doubt it.

Just a quick "correction" on the physics involved with wheels hitting brakes. This is almost always cited as being the result of a wheel not being "stiff enough." That's actually not at all the case. The flat 900 disc is the wheel that most notably "hits brakes." The reason for this is because the wheel is EXTREMELY stiff laterally. Too stiff, in some people's opinions.

Think about why the wheels are hitting the brakes. There is no force being applied laterally at the top of the wheel. When people push on their wheels at the bridge from the side and say "look, it hits the brakes!" that is totally unrealistic. Try to imagine how you could ever generate that force while actually riding. What is actually happening is that the bottom of the wheel is getting move left/right as people stand and sprint. When a wheel has extreme lateral stiffness, the top will move left to right an equivalent amount. If a wheel has some reasonable amount of flex built in laterally, it can "suck up" this lateral travel of the wheel underneath the bike.

So when wheels hit the brakes, it's because they have TOO much stiffness, not because they have inadequate stiffness. The end result is the same, of course, your wheels are hitting your brakes, and that's a problem. But the actual reason why it happens is basically opposite of what people think. 808s are MUCH stiffer laterally than 404s. It's a lot easier for me to ping my brakes with 808s than with my 404s. And it's easier to ping it with 404s than with 303s. It's easiest to ping brakes with a 900 disc. But it's because the wheels are too stiff.

One thing to think about, though, what this means is that you are pinging your brakes because you are moving your bike a fair amount left to right. More flex in your wheels will help accommodate this. But the other thing you can do is NOT move your bike so much left to right. Keep in mind that all of the protour sprinters are running the exact same wheels you are. They don't ping their brakes (and Cav regularly runs an 808 rear). And the reason is that they move their body left to right a LOT, but the bike holds a very straight line. Moving your bike left to right is not going to make you go any faster. So if your wheels are/were hitting your brakes, it's not a problem with your wheels, it's a problem with how you sprint, which is a good thing, because it means there is "free" speed on the table.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.


I have a '09 Stinger9 FR (front)

does the '10 Stinger9 test faster?

has HED verified or commented on this?


Hey Gary,

Look back in the thread - I posted some measurements on my Stinger 9 front. Roady then added that there are 2 versions of the Stinger 9 with some recollections of what the drag data looked like. We both have the older version.

Vince from HED committed to checking into this next week so hopefully we will get some clarification and drag data from him on the older Stinger 9 version.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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Zipp has more $$ in machines and such as you pointed out, but HED has more $$ in shipping and outside contrctors. They also have to go to the foreign factories to make sure things are done correctly. Look at it this way, if you were starting a wheel company you would likely start by going to foreign makers, even if you had your own design. Each wheel would cost more, but the start up cost is much less.

I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but your assertions don't make sense to me. The cost of getting anything done is cheaper in Taiwan compared to the US... usually a lot cheaper. As such, I'd wager that the cost to Zipp of purchasing and using tooling in the US, is substantially more than the cost to Hed for having this contracted. Just because you own expensive tooling, this doesn't mean it is free... not by a long shot... and there is greater risk involved with the capital investment. The same goes for all the other aspects of the business that must done with higher wage scales.

The upside of having things done here (and all at one place) is greater control and better communication which can result in greater efficiency (ie fewer total man-hrs), but when you factor in the low wages in Taiwan, they can afford to be less efficient over there and still make higher profits. I don't see any substantial "cost savings" in it anywhere for Zipp, except for fewer plane tickets to Taiwan. It is simply a very different way of doing business, and one that used to be very common in the days when we actually built things in this country. I'd guess the reason Zipp does it is because they've been around a long time, and this is the business model they've always had and it works... they have been very successful and made good profits. If it ain't broke...

Quote Reply
Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.


I have a '09 Stinger9 FR (front)

does the '10 Stinger9 test faster?

has HED verified or commented on this?


Hey Gary,

Look back in the thread - I posted some measurements on my Stinger 9 front. Roady then added that there are 2 versions of the Stinger 9 with some recollections of what the drag data looked like. We both have the older version.

Vince from HED committed to checking into this next week so hopefully we will get some clarification and drag data from him on the older Stinger 9 version.


AFM, Rapp, roady - thanks

So, assuming the '10 HED fits a P4 fork, for a ~90mm front TT wheel, I have these three front wheel choices (w/RXLpro22)

1. '09 Stinger 9 w/Hooker front brake
2. '10 tubular 808 w/Hooker front brake
3. '10 Stinger 9 w/[some other centerpull?] front brake
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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(almost forgot)

4. '10 Zipp 1080 w/hooker front brake

This last option is a bit more challenging in the wind as I ran it at states a couple of years ago at Palmdale, but if significantly faster than the other 3 options, I can make it work

So out of those four options .... ideas?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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How wide can the Hooker brakes open up? That's one very serious area of concern with the '10 S9. The dimensions of max width are in here, but it's 27.85-28.00cm at the brake track. That's too wide for several brakes, but I have no idea how wide the Hooker can open. Of course, you can always shave the pads or use really narrow profile pads like the Zipp Tangente, but just be aware of that particular concern.

You also cannot run an RXLPro22. Well, you *can*, but using a tire narrower than 23mm will void the warranty on the S9.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
How wide can the Hooker brakes open up?


I had to shave down the brake pads to fit the '09 S9

FWIW the Hooker is *significantly* faster than a Dura Ace front brake, can't discuss here, I can email you the results offline

I'd like to keep it on the P4

So, choice/differences between a '10 808, '09 S9, and '10 1080 ...?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
How wide can the Hooker brakes open up?


I had to shave down the brake pads to fit the '09 S9

FWIW the Hooker is *significantly* faster than a Dura Ace front brake, can't discuss here, I can email you the results offline

I'd like to keep it on the P4

So, choice/differences between a '10 808, '09 S9, and '10 1080 ...?

What's your exact timeframe? You could also wait for the Firecrest 808 - which is coming in both carbon clincher and tubular flavors, but I don't know the exact release date for each yet. The tubular version should come out first, since it is pretty well finalized and had to be for the TdF. That wheel bests the '10 S9.

If you need a wheel now, the 1080 is a great wheel, but I find it can be a bit much on windy days.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
How wide can the Hooker brakes open up?


I had to shave down the brake pads to fit the '09 S9

FWIW the Hooker is *significantly* faster than a Dura Ace front brake, can't discuss here, I can email you the results offline

I'd like to keep it on the P4

So, choice/differences between a '10 808, '09 S9, and '10 1080 ...?


What's your exact timeframe? You could also wait for the Firecrest 808 - which is coming in both carbon clincher and tubular flavors, but I don't know the exact release date for each yet. The tubular version should come out first, since it is pretty well finalized and had to be for the TdF. That wheel bests the '10 S9.

If you need a wheel now, the 1080 is a great wheel, but I find it can be a bit much on windy days.


Will the brake track on the '11 808 FC tubular exceed 23mm?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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My brake width is just shy of 28mm. The serial number starts with 10. So I am not sure if I have a 10 or 09 if there is really two different wheels.

How do we tell, if we have a tire mounted, if the wheel is a 09 or 10? A serial number starting with 10 mean it is a 10? What is the brake width on the 09?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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My brake width is just shy of 28mm. The serial number starts with 10. So I am not sure if I have a 10 or 09 if there is really two different wheels.

How do we tell, if we have a tire mounted, if the wheel is a 09 or 10? A serial number starting with 10 mean it is a 10? What is the brake width on the 09?

AFM posted the dimensions from what seems to be the '09 S9. Compare those with yours. Based off what you are saying - width at brake track = 28mm - you have a 2010, which would make sense to me based off of your serial #, but keep in mind I work for Zipp, not HED.

Here are the dims AFM gave:
Rim Depth - 90 mm
Width of Rim at ~ center of Brake Pad surface - 26.0 mm
Tire Bead Outside Width - 24.1 mm
Max Rim Width - 27.1 mm
Depth of Tire Bed - 4.6 mm
Width of RXL Pro Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm
Width of Vitt CX 21 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm
Width of Vitt Crono II 22 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.0 mm


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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In Reply To:
How wide can the Hooker brakes open up?


I had to shave down the brake pads to fit the '09 S9

FWIW the Hooker is *significantly* faster than a Dura Ace front brake, can't discuss here, I can email you the results offline

I'd like to keep it on the P4

So, choice/differences between a '10 808, '09 S9, and '10 1080 ...?


What's your exact timeframe? You could also wait for the Firecrest 808 - which is coming in both carbon clincher and tubular flavors, but I don't know the exact release date for each yet. The tubular version should come out first, since it is pretty well finalized and had to be for the TdF. That wheel bests the '10 S9.

If you need a wheel now, the 1080 is a great wheel, but I find it can be a bit much on windy days.


Will the brake track on the '11 808 FC tubular exceed 23mm?

Yes. The average outer width (keep in mind, Zipp has non-parallel brake tracks, so the top of the brake track is narrower than the bottom) and the width at both the top and bottom will most certainly be wider than 23mm.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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serial # begins with "8KA" and is 24mm outer rim tire bead
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
serial # begins with "8KA" and is 24mm outer rim tire bead

if you're asking about your S9, I'm the wrong guy...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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If my assertions don't make sense to you why did you restate them? I'm not sure what you see as the difference between what I said and what you said.

Styrrell.

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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VN wrote of the S9 ... "27mm at the brake track and even wider in the midsection"

article online here http://www.velonews-digital.com/...ws/201009?pg=26#pg74

my '09 Stinger 9 measures 24mm at the brack track outer-outer, this one tested measures 27.5mm

there are two different Stinger 9 wheels, the '09-'10, and this "new one"

based on the photo in the link above (zoom in), the trailing edge is much wider than the '09 model

and confirmed as a new wheel on their U.K. site:

"With its remodelled 90mm rim, the HED Stinger 9 not only outperforms every spoked wheel shallower than 90mm - as you would expect of a HED wheel - but it also outperforms all the spoked wheels deeper than 90mm.
The key to the unrivalled performance of the new HED Stinger series is in the shape of the rim, rather than its depth. Starting at the leading edge - the tyre - we have widened and deepened the cradle it sits in. The new tyre well is 28mm wide and is designed for a 23mm tubular. Because the walls come further up the sidewall of the tyre, the new rim shape not only smoothes out the unaerodynamic bulge of a narrow tubular in a narrow, shallow tyre well, but it also supports the carcass of the tyre, meaning better cornering and acceleration because of massively decreased tyre 'wash'.
Using three different types of carbon and a new lay-up has allowed us to increase lateral stiffness, while maintaining vertical compliance and shaving 25g off the previous rim weight. The new HED Stinger 9 is also 10 per cent more impact resistant than the previous version.
The HED Stinger 9 has a 90mm deep rim, and generally speaking the most gains from a deep rim are to be had at over 25mph, when yaw angle comes down. However, the HED Stinger 9's improved aerodynamics mean greater stability in crosswinds, because airflow remains smooth, reducing buffeting."
http://www.hedwheels.com/...l.asp?prod=StingerS9

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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If my assertions don't make sense to you why did you restate them? I'm not sure what you see as the difference between what I said and what you said.

In that case I agree with you...

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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Of course all this brings up the question of "What does the deeper well do to the rolling resistance of the tire"

I could see it both ways:
A) Better support = less squirm = lower RR
B) Better support =less shock aborbtion = worse RR

C is always an option = doesn't matter.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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for what it's worth, here's HED's data on the older Stinger 9, and a bunch of other wheels. I can't even remember where I got this, but it was posted on the interwebs somewhere and I saved it in my "cycling data" folder...

Note, I'm pretty sure the "82mm" is an 808 clincher. I don't see an 808 tubular on there. On this chart at least, past 17.5 degrees the S6 is faster than the S9. The S6 also looks slightly faster at lower yaws. This is definitely different than the current drag curve.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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Looking at this chart reminds me of some inconsistencies on Hed's website. If you look at the description (on HED website) of the Stinger 9 it says that it is optimal at 12.5 degrees and stalled out at 15 degrees. This old chart seems to match that description. However if you look at the drag chart and the velonews chart both seem to indicated that the stinger is even faster at 15 degrees and doesn't stall out to after 15 degrees. Maybe Vince can comment on it, and maybe the web guy can fix the website description so that both the chart and description actually match.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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Of course there is the story of how NASA spent millions to develop a pen that would write in zero gravity and the Russians just use a pencil. Seems like Edges system of molding in holes vs cutting fibers would be a better, and possibly less expensive solution.

Styrrell

This story is a somewhat of an urban legend. NASA did use pencils at the beginning of the space program, although pencils have the downside of having parts that can break off, and in zero gravity it's not too safe to have sharp piece of lead and splinters floating around. Also, in the high oxygen environment of the space capsules having easily combustible material handy is not a great idea. The pressurized pens were developed independently and NASA began purchased them after they were developed.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks roady,

Looking at the new HED website it appears that the '09 Stinger 9 which we and Gary have is equivalent to the Zipp 1080 which I'm guessing is the 180 mm labelled wheel - that curve is identical to the Zipp 1080 curve on the new chart. The '10 Stinger 9 however is better as it doesn't stall until ~ 16 degrees.

Do you have any record of when you got this chart ??
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have any record of when you got this chart ??

Yep, the file is from 01/15/2009.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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I find it laughable that anyone would think chinese carbon fibre is somehow a lower quality then American. Give it up anyone trying to claim that a wheel is better because it is made by an American Citizen as opposed to a citizen of an Asian country. That is pathetic.

This tells me you haven't done business over there, nor have you been following the news. The business culture in China is fundamentally dishonest. If the guy you're working with isn't trying to screw you, the guys supplying him sure are. If they think you aren't testing your materials they'll substitute the cheapest thing they can find that looks similar. You wanted a moisture resistant plastic? Too bad...you got ABS which degrades in high humidity. You wanted milk? Too bad you got melamine.

It's TOUGH to make a quality product in china. It can be done, but it requires a LOT of effort. And honestly, for a small outfit like HED, it's very difficult. You need guys on site fairly frequently to look over the manufacturer's shoulder, and check stuff. You also need people to inspect incoming product. That all takes time and effort.

This is not to say that HEDs are lower quality than Zipps. They are a successful company and I'm sure they have processes that work for them. I just want to point out that it DOES really really matter where materials are sourced from. American business culture is far from perfect but it is FAR more honest than what goes on in China.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Do you have any record of when you got this chart ??


Yep, the file is from 01/15/2009.


Thanks - that was before I bought the Stinger 9 on 1/23/09. Do you happen to know when the new Stinger 9 data came out ?? I know that the new Stinger Disc data came out between 1/23 and 2/12 of '09. Tryin' to build a case that I bought based on the new data but got the old wheel but I think I'm SOL. (:-) Oh, well - a lower cost 1080 equivalent isn't bad.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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Do you happen to know when the new Stinger 9 data came out ??

My best guess is early 2010, but that's a guess.

Look at it this way; you can run the Crono 22's on the old wheel, so given the Crr of those tires chances are you may have a faster setup!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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Do you happen to know when the new Stinger 9 data came out ??


My best guess is early 2010, but that's a guess.

Look at it this way; you can run the Crono 22's on the old wheel, so given the Crr of those tires chances are you may have a faster setup!


(;-) - that's exactly why I had the tire off when this thread started - making the switch to the Crono 22.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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It would seem to me the best tire is a Vittoria EVO CX 23mm for the 2010 version of the Stinger 9. That is the tire I am using. Or take a chance and use the 21mm version.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Do you happen to know when the new Stinger 9 data came out ??


My best guess is early 2010, but that's a guess.

Look at it this way; you can run the Crono 22's on the old wheel, so given the Crr of those tires chances are you may have a faster setup!


For sure, but only in clean roads. Crono tubulars will puncture notably easier than a Corsa EVO CX tubular.

I have fitted a wheel for a TT even with a Pista EVO CS tubular (which is even less resistant to puncturing than the Crono) but that was on a very clean GP F1 race track where I knew that the possibility of a flat was very low.

Lower Crr sometims brings along lower Pr. When to use a faster wheel that is also less puncture resistant? That is the question.

Sergio

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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I've used an older chrono without flatting for an IM race. I'm pretty sure that this years chrono (22mm) is a bit more puncture resistant than the older one. If I had the new stinger I'd be pretty tempted to use the chrono. It depends on how it looked on the wheel.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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fwiw the bonty RXLpro22 works on the "old" 2009-2010, for the front wheel anyway

not sure what tire to use on the "new" 27mm rim, probably vitt evo cx 23

has Vince confirmed that there are two Stinger S9 models, the 24mm wide and 27mm wide versions?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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The new Chrono is too skinny still.... I would go with the Veloflex Record 22 - it is a bit wider than the Chrono and I'm sure the RR is comparable to or better than Record 20

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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Do we have someone with a 09 Stinger that measures 24mm wide at brake track?

If we do I know mine is just shy of 28mm. That would convince me that there are two versions.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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Measured my 09 stinger 9 at 24mm, outer brake track
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks firstly to Rappstar for helping me to figure out the stiffness of wheels etc. (still hard for me to conceptualize that a wheel I used to ping against my brakes and seatstays is stiffer though). Frankly all I care about is that on the '10 Stinger 90s I do not have to open up my rear brake before a sprint. I am still not happy about the rear wheel weighing 100 grams more than is listed on the Hed site but I'll wait to see what Hed has to say about that misrepresentation. At present I use 320 tpi 23mm CXs but have some nice 23mm Corsa Evo Slicks waiting to be glued. A friend has the '09 Stinger 90s and CX21mm are perfect for his wheelset.

23mm for the '10 Stinger 90s is almost a hair too small but I followed AFM's gluing protocol and held them into position while they dried using tape (especially at the valve stem where I tape around the tire and rim so that when inflated the tire doesn't lift off the rim and give me an undesirable hop).


cheers all.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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Do we have someone with a 09 Stinger that measures 24mm wide at brake track?

If we do I know mine is just shy of 28mm. That would convince me that there are two versions.


Same here - 24 mm. I have other measurements listed in a post from a few days ago. I got my Stinger 9 in Jan of '09.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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Now it pretty clear to me that there are two versions. Why would HED not make a big deal about coming out with a new version? Or naming it something else?

Companies spend a fortune coming out with new versions. You sell your customers to upgrade. Why not here?

Maybe there was a lot of the old ones in inventory and they want to move them before announcing a new version?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you, very strange. Maybe the new Stinger 9 will be their big announcement at Interbike?

For what it's worth, I bought my Stinger 9 in Jan 10 from a large online retailer. It's 24mm at the brake track, serial number 8KA2248. Two days ago I asked Hed, via twitter, if this was the same wheel used in the test... they said yes.

Duncan
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [DClarke] [ In reply to ]
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I had two Stinger 9s. But I did not measure the first one. It was replaced about a month ago shipped directly by HED and the new one is definitely 28mm wide.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [DClarke] [ In reply to ]
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Check to see what type of carbon fiber fairing you have as well on your Stinger 9. Is it made of unidirectional carbon or 12K carbon weave. I tried to purchase a "2010 Advertised Stinger 90" from Trisports.com (May 2010) and after placing my order I had someone actually check the wheel and it was the old weave edition. I told them that it is a 2009 and they told me they wouldn't give me a 2010 until this one was sold, needless to say I canceled my order. It seems that maybe HED kept it quiet because they didn't want to de-value the stock of 2009 out there and their own supply. Although my Stinger 90 is currently with my bike being fixed, it is wider than the sub9 at the brack track so I presume it to be a 2010. It was purchased on here from one of the HED Mafia guys. I am interested in knowing if anyone has the narrower wheel bed but still the new unidirectional carbon fairing.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [electusunus] [ In reply to ]
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Check to see what type of carbon fiber fairing you have as well on your Stinger 9. Is it made of unidirectional carbon or 12K carbon weave. I tried to purchase a "2010 Advertised Stinger 90" from Trisports.com (May 2010) and after placing my order I had someone actually check the wheel and it was the old weave edition. I told them that it is a 2009 and they told me they wouldn't give me a 2010 until this one was sold, needless to say I canceled my order. It seems that maybe HED kept it quiet because they didn't want to de-value the stock of 2009 out there and their own supply. Although my Stinger 90 is currently with my bike being fixed, it is wider than the sub9 at the brack track so I presume it to be a 2010. It was purchased on here from one of the HED Mafia guys. I am interested in knowing if anyone has the narrower wheel bed but still the new unidirectional carbon fairing.


This will date me but does anyone remember the Osborne Personal Computer ??
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM [ In reply to ]
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Hello AFM and All,

............... and the IMSAI and the Commodore Pet. I had a Commodore Pet.

I also owned a small corporation that sold Alpha Microsystems computers and other products for a few years in Redmond, WA.

And of course Osborne canabalized their market by touting the next coming model killing current sales.

Auto compaines seem to get away with it (touting newer and better early on) by discounting older models.

Zipp, with a price differential, will probably be OK with their 404 Aluminium rim vs. carbon rim wheels for awhile.

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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As far as the data goes, I will have to check on that for you. I have only been at HED. when the data for the new Stingers were published/posted online. I will ask around to see if we have the older data.

In Reply To:
You got it buddy!

It might be late on Sunday. I am headed to Ragbrai this weekend, leaving soon


Roady was able to dig up some older data which I think covers the early and narrow Stinger 9 but was wondering if you had found anything else. Sorry if this is a repeat question - I've been in the backwoods (literally) for the past week.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Hello AFM and All,

............... and the IMSAI and the Commodore Pet. I had a Commodore Pet.

Speaking of Commodores...I actually still have a C64 complete setup (including floppy drive and printer) in the original boxes in my garage...I wonder what that setup would go for on Ebay? ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone got anything approaching a cross section of the HED 40(ish) mm wheel?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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This tread was not dead?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bushpilot] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. Based on the discussions on this thread, I had some interesting stuff to share like the turbulence patterns off a 404 firecrest or:

or, for those wanting numbers, the drag of a 404 firecrest at 12.5° yaw appears to be 75grams.

Sorry for raising the thread.
Last edited by: zebragonzo: Aug 16, 10 10:41
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. Based on the discussions on this thread, I had some interesting stuff to share like the turbulence patterns off a 404 firecrest or:

or, for those wanting numbers, the drag of a 404 firecrest at 12.5° yaw appears to be 75grams.

Sorry for raising the thread.

Just curious, but that's a rotating wheel model right? Did you grab the shape off of the cross-section pics that were published?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Rotating wheel(well, moving walls), cross section as shown on zipp site.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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... in 3 months when the new stuff comes out at Eurobike/Interbike this test is null and outdated because the new wheels are coming that will be faster then the ones tested. That is from both HED and Zipp, hell, Easton could have a wheel that nobody knows about that beats everybody.

That is what is exciting about competition. You never know what the next day will have in store for you.

Well, it's interbike... Since I'm not there, the only thing I saw (as of today) is on the "Day 3 pics" at the front page of Slowtwitch (Stinger 5)...

What else is new? I'm a Hed fanboy, so I wanna know... :)



----------------------------------------------------------

keep it simple , keep it real .
--Brett Sutton

But i dont really know that much about bikes. I just sit on em and do as i am told. peddle. hard and fast.
--Chrissie Wellington

I think the best way to get faster is to enjoy it, the more you do the better you get, so go out and enjoy swim, biking and running, and don't feel to constrained and just do lots.
--Stephen Bayliss
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Alfalfameister] [ In reply to ]
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Hey HED - what's new for your wheels for those that can't make it to Eurobike?

Perhaps update your website with a media release, pictures etc.

(I have never understood the lack of information given to the public from several cycling companies - it isn't that hard to update a website. You'd think that as soon as public release is made someone presses a button to load a file for the website. For example, Zipp released the 808 carbon clincher and it's already on it's website, that's not a marketing budget - that is organisation).
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In regards to Chinese QC in general...

It's not as if this American (if not Western) position regarding Chinese manufacturing is misplaced ethnocentrism. Remember back to 2007 when chemicals from antifreeze were found in toothpastes stateside? Remember the melamine-laced dairy product scandals? I want to say over 141 babies died of acute renal failure. I know the total number of impacted children was significantly higher. Then there was the Eukanuba pet food animal deaths. So I think writing off concerns about Chinese product manufacturing really is premature. This is a public perception that has been shaped through rather poignant media coverage. People really seem to have a soft spot for their children and pets. I think we write it off a lot easier to ignore this stuff when it's just our material posessions that are linked to a nations reputation. However, when familial relationships are threatened (if only on an emotional perception level), we sit up and take notice much quicker, and are much slower to forget (perhaps the specifics we will forget, but grudges are something we humans do tend to foster).


I have gotten a lot of second hand information from 4 friends who spent the last year or two in china. Two spent it in Hohhot, one in Guangzhou, and I can't recall where my other friend was located. But he relocated to Boston for med school shortly after he returned, so he has been relatively absent from this conversation, but he has echoed the same struggles and problems in my short communications with him. Furthermore, my former debate coach is working with the IDEA debate program...mostly in Shanghai, I believe. The general consensus is that America has a fundamental misunderstanding of Chinese work and discourse. The impression I NOW have is one of corporations with hands tied to the approval of government officials (look into literature about the % GDP expended on wining and dining gov't officials - there are even communist party members that are publicly voicing concern about how bad it is).

Here's a story about someone who has played the role of importer... I'll admit up front, I haven't read the book, and the title IS really aggressive, but I thought it was at least a lively read:


http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/alpha-consumer/2009/04/23/explaining-chinas-quality-control-problems



Oh, and just throwing this out there - the Chinese 10 hour schoolday? Yeah, it comes with a 2 hour lunch break. Shoot, North Koreans even get that! Ironic, since they don't really get anything to eat...







Seriously, don't take me too seriously.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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Have you also modeled the legacy shape or the V-rim they also show in that graphic? That might provide some interesting comparison.

Was the tire a generic shape or based on some known profile?

1st Place, 50-55 2018 USAT Duathlon Sprint Duathlon National Championships, National Champion; 2nd Place Overall, 2018 Virginia Duathlon; 3rd Place, 50-54, 9th overall, USAT Long Course Duathlon (Miamiman); 4th Place Masters, 10th overall, 2018 Kiawah Island 1/2 Marathon
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