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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt and I find the 808 to be much faster! I know I see that wheel under a lot more people than just pro's. Handling it is no problem, it just feels like a parachute and not a kite to me.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Geez, why does everyone care if the rim is made overseas or not?

I think all these wheels are fast, and unless you are losing your TT's/Ironman's by a couple of seconds, which 99.9% people here are not, it ain't gonna matter.
I firmly believe that if any of the wheels were noticeably faster than the other, then almost every pro cyclist would be using the same wheels, all re-badged with their sponsors logo.

I prefer to choose wheels that don't break. I understand from their marketing, that Zipp rims are supposed to now be stronger. But the fact that everyone I know personally that owned Zipps in the past (which admittedly is only about 10 people) broke them, prevents me from dropping my $$ on them.
On the other hand, I know many on Easton carbons, and a few on HED, and none have had a failure.. That's what matters to me...

flame suit.....on...

The primary reason I'd care if they're made overseas or not is whether the wheel in question has sufficient IP attached to the design or manufacturing process. As in, you largely don't want everyone else selling the same wheel as you in about 3 weeks under a generic name. Labor costs are higher here, but transportation/distribution costs are lower. Not sure how automated the fabrication of new wheels is, but prepreg should be much more machine-driven. Who knows where the tipping point is.

From a nationalistic perspective, I like hearing that things are made here in the US. We've already lost far too much of our manufacturing base, and I hope recent economic "effects" along with energy costs start making companies look at where they make things and whether they're living in a false economy.

I agree with the rest of your post.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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1080 Front wheel. do not like at all, and others I know that had/have it don't like it too much either.


That wheel requires particular skills to be ridden efficiently, but for those that have those skills the 1080 front is an extremelly fast wheel... as the S9 is also.

Sergio

These kinds of skills? ;-)
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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I cant speak for Zipp but we hold the patent rights to our wheels so there wont be any fakes out there. We have no problems going after those companies that do too.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I think you meant to respond to me. I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with making your stuff overseas. It appears that there's a core group of manufacturers there that make good carbon stuff in China/Taiwan. I also bet that HED owns those molds and keeps very good tabs on them. But we've both got to be honest--there's a lot of straight knock offs coming from that part of the world, and we have very little legal leverage against them.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt

Speaking of which: good luck this weekend!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [DHeineck] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, you are right about that!


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt


Speaking of which: good luck this weekend!

Thanks! Henderson is looking really strong and will probably set a new record if he wins. Any idea what the best time for that course is?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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This is something that has come up on the forum lately but no one seemed to have an exact answer. I know the hybi-toroidal rim shape has plenty of years left, Zipp applied in 1997 I believe, but the original toroidal rim shape patent is near its end is it not?

Applied October 20, 1989 and granted October 29, 1991.

If I read correctly, patents last for 20 years from date of application or 17 years from date they were granted if they were applied for before 1995 and after 1979 if it is a utility patent.

If it's a design patent then it's only 14 years and this conversation is fairly moot.

I believe Rappstar said that some Taiwanese companies had toroidal rims at the most recent interbike, though I have not seen them in use as of yet.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt and I find the 808 to be much faster! I know I see that wheel under a lot more people than just pro's. Handling it is no problem, it just feels like a parachute and not a kite to me.


If that 1080 felt like "a parachute" then there is something else going on there.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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This is something that has come up on the forum lately but no one seemed to have an exact answer. I know the hybi-toroidal rim shape has plenty of years left, Zipp applied in 1997 I believe, but the original toroidal rim shape patent is near its end is it not?

Applied October 20, 1989 and granted October 29, 1991.

If I read correctly, patents last for 20 years from date of application or 17 years from date they were granted if they were applied for before 1995 and after 1979 if it is a utility patent.

If it's a design patent then it's only 14 years and this conversation is fairly moot.

I believe Rappstar said that some Taiwanese companies had toroidal rims at the most recent interbike, though I have not seen them in use as of yet.

The toroidal patent is expired. There were lots of wheels in the backrooms at I'bike last year. But I'm surprised they aren't for sale publicly yet. It'll be any day now, though. That's my understanding from the last conversation I had. I thought it was 17 years, with the expiration actually being Oct of last year, but that would mean 1992... <shrug>


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Or maybe different wind conditions if this was on the same course.

I just find it hard to accept that all other things being the same (tubular type and glue/gluing procedure, spoke tension, no rubbing in brake pads, etc.) with a variable yaw in a typical TT course, a 404 is faster than a 1080. The 1080 wheel feeling like a "parachute" is something else.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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I push between 340-360 watts when I tt


Speaking of which: good luck this weekend!

Thanks! Henderson is looking really strong and will probably set a new record if he wins. Any idea what the best time for that course is?

Given the fact that the turn-around differs every year, I don't really think there is any such thing as a course record (except perhaps for the women <g>).

EDIT: Fastest time for any man in the past decade appears to be the 52 flat that Joe Hill did in 2004. However, according to my SRM the course was only 38.56 km that year, vs. the 41.27 km we raced last year. That would make Henderson's time last year the fastest, as it would be the equivalent of a 51:36...but as you know, he apparently went through some sort of space-time warp on the return leg (maybe he got a big boost from that storm?).

EDIT2: There is also Andrew Chocha's 52:26 in 2007. I don't have an exact distance handy (as Angie's speedo quit working), but it would have been very, very close to 40 km (based on her time, cadence, and the roll-out of her fixed gear).
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Jul 30, 10 12:59
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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I've got a Stinger 6/9 combo which I bought recently based, in part, on Vince's recommendation (from before he was with HED). I had to wait for them to be built because they were on back order in the Spring. Thus, I'm fairly certain mine were built in early May of this year - and are presumably the latest iteration I've got Continental GP 40000 SRs on them (a good tire for the Texas roads I ride). I love the wheels. For the record, they fit my SRAM Red brakes without any problems or modifications.

Vince, I'll give you a call this weekend to go over next week's plan. (BTW, Vince does have a title. To me, at least, he's "coach Vince!")
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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Or maybe different wind conditions if this was on the same course.

I just find it hard to accept that all other things being the same (tubular type and glue/gluing procedure, spoke tension, no rubbing in brake pads, etc.) with a variable yaw in a typical TT course, a 404 is faster than a 1080. The 1080 wheel feeling like a "parachute" is something else.

Sergio

ran it on the same course several times always the slower times on that wheel! I'm telling you unless it's shorter than a 10k tt or a point to point i don't think a 1080 is faster than an 808.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [SHPTri] [ In reply to ]
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Nice! thanks buddy. Although, you are being nice so the hill sprints must have been too easy this week!!!!


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 13:18
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Nice! thanks buddy. Although, you are being nice so the hill sprints must have been too easy this week!!!!

LOL. Actually, I was going to write that your other title (according to my wife) is: The Guy You Pay to Come Up With Ways to Torture Yourself" .
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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1080 Front wheel. do not like at all, and others I know that had/have it don't like it too much either.


That wheel requires particular skills to be ridden efficiently, but for those that have those skills the 1080 front is an extremelly fast wheel... as the S9 is also.

Sergio


These kinds of skills? ;-)

Shouldn't he have been DQ'd for cutting the course?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TTmo] [ In reply to ]
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Or maybe different wind conditions if this was on the same course.

I just find it hard to accept that all other things being the same (tubular type and glue/gluing procedure, spoke tension, no rubbing in brake pads, etc.) with a variable yaw in a typical TT course, a 404 is faster than a 1080. The 1080 wheel feeling like a "parachute" is something else.

Sergio


ran it on the same course several times always the slower times on that wheel! I'm telling you unless it's shorter than a 10k tt or a point to point i don't think a 1080 is faster than an 808.

I'm not sure if you answered and I didn't catch it, but did you say what tires were on each?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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1080 Front wheel. do not like at all, and others I know that had/have it don't like it too much either.


That wheel requires particular skills to be ridden efficiently, but for those that have those skills the 1080 front is an extremelly fast wheel... as the S9 is also.

Sergio


These kinds of skills? ;-)


Shouldn't he have been DQ'd for cutting the course?


Not in this particular case. It was the race organizer's fault. It is cleary stated in the rules regarding TTs. That was not a safe course for a TT.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I think whether you have a Zipp 404/808 combo or a HED Stinger 6/Stinger 9 combo, they are both very fast set ups and the actual real world difference between the two is marginal.
But, when I was making my wheel decision last year it came down to this:

Zipp 404 front: $1035
Zipp 808 rear: $1375

Total: $2410


HED Stinger 6 front: $700
HED Stinger 9 rear: $850

Total: $1550

thats an $860 difference in HED's favor.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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I ride stinger 90 this season instead of Zipp 606(clincher) and i m very happy. i don' t need to pay for all the Zipp marketing all over the place. Those ads have a price tag and it won't make you faster.Period.

The Zipp marketing is 10/10, congrats to them!

Jf
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bushpilot] [ In reply to ]
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I ride stinger 90 this season instead of Zipp 606(clincher) and i m very happy. i don' t need to pay for all the Zipp marketing all over the place. Those ads have a price tag and it won't make you faster.Period.

The Zipp marketing is 10/10, congrats to them!

Jf

I see this trotted out over and over and over again, and it's just not true. Open up any issue of any cycling magazine or any triathlon magazine and count the number of ads from Zipp. Now count the number of ads from HED. Or Easton. It's pretty much the same - about one per magazine. Zipp sponsors two Div 1 protour teams, HED sponsors one (though as has been pointed out, Cavendish himself is a Zipp athlete). Zipp is a bigger company, they sell more wheels, so yes, they maybe have a slightly larger advertising budget. But the overwhelming price difference between wheels has to do with cost of construction. Jets are carbon fairings bonded to structurally sound rims. Zipp aluminum clinchers are non-structurally-sound extrusions co-molded to a deep carbon structural "lower" (for lack of a better term). Stingers hoops are made in Taiwan of Chinese carbon fiber. Zipp full-carbon wheels are made in the US of US-made carbon fiber and resins. HED's discs are spoked wheels with a full-carbon skin bonded on. Zipp's wheels are nomex-honeycomb cores in some cases (Sub9 & 900clincher) co-molded to a bladder-molded outer layer. The machines that make the Sub9, for example, cost over $100,000 apiece. That's the ONLY wheel those machines make. Zipp has 12 of them. Zipp's marketing "department" is one single guy named Andy. Zipp's engineering department is 12 people.

Yes, Zipps cost more. No, they are not 30+% faster than HEDs despite being more than 30% (in general) more expensive. But that additional cost is NOT because of marketing.

I don't know the exact amounts of what HED makes per wheel, only about what they "could" make based on discussions about how much it would cost to have someone like Gigantex make Zipp wheels in Asia. But based off those sort of discussions about what Zipps would cost if they were made the same way as HED, the margin per wheel is actually higher for a HED than for Zipp. That's an estimate of course, as I definitely do not have access to HED's accounting records. But I do know how *little* Zipp actually makes per wheel (no, I won't share). I do not begrudge anyone saying that they don't feel like paying more for wheels that are aerodynamically similar. That's fine. But please, please stop attributing that cost to marketing. If you want to object to the high cost of American labor, American business taxes, etc. be my guest. But stick to those facts.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Man ..... that last post Rapp was a STRETCH!

The cost of Zipps are so high not because of manufacturing, because we have the same machines. If we dont then we have to pay the companies that have the machines and I can guarantee that isnt cheap!

Zipp is a huge company compared to HED. I would probably say 3x as big. We focus on wheels and bars, thats it. Zipp/SRAM has wheels, bars, more wheels, components etc... all of that costs money.

You say it the process to make the stuff, its to pay the 12 engineers and that is just for the wheels, builders, sales reps, lord knows who else. You cant tell me that cost of business isnt reflected into the cost of the wheels?

How many guys did Zipp sent to the tour? We sent 2. The expense of sending the 2 for a month was a stretch for the company. Im sure Zipp sent more than 2 people. Yes Zipp paid for them, but those costs are all absorbed into the wheels, eventually. Its business!

We have 3 sales guys, who also are the marketing guys and occasional wheel builders. The fact is, the smaller the operation the more the consumer saves. It isnt the process to build the wheels.

If that was the case the Bontrager wheels would be the most expensive wheels out there. The fact they are still lower than Zipps just indicates the cost is in the company expenses. Bontrager/Trek is a bigger company than Zipp and have a lot more "things" they are working on. They are still cheaper. They have more machines that do lord knows what. Im sure they have more expenses than Zipp and HED put together times 2.

And also, we sponsor 3 ProTour teams


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 18:31
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