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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Cool, the discussion here is in the details for some participants.

Here's my $.02 for Rappstar and others... I ride SRAM force brakes and I've had no problems using Stinger 6's. They do have to be adjusted to fit, but there is enough clearance for my big ass to sprint over and over again in crits without the rim smacking the pads.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah buddy!. The details part, not the big ass part :)


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
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Why is so clear that the 1080 would have won??? Did you see the german tour magazine wheel test from this year. If I recall I believe the stinger crushed the 1080 at 12.5 degrees

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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OK, hopefully I can add some clarity here...the reality is that I have no idea what Hed is up to, or how this prouduct really performs beyond this test, as I cannot get one to test in depth, despite having been trying for a few months.

First of all, we knew this VN test was coming (unlike Tour Germany or or Triathlon Germany who buy wheels locally to be sure that the test product is 'as sold', VN got these wheels from the manufacturers), so we sent them standard 808's and also a prototype pair of the new 808 with Firecrest geometry, which was debuted at the Tour and will be officially shown in public at Eurobike in a few weeks. they only officially tested the standard 808 as the FC version was not available yet (the testing was done in May)...they do mention the new 808 in the front of the magazine as a product that you would see at the Tour, but would not put it in the review as it wasn't shipping yet...I agree with their decision and think it shows integrity on their part.

in late April, we bought all of the products that were going to be tested by VN and took them to the A2 tunnel to make sure we would be on top (we had just been to A2 5 weeks earlier with a S9 purchased in December and we were beating it at that time, but had never tested a Cole wheel, though we later determined it to be the same rim as FFWD) and we bought a Stinger9 from a very large Hed retailer online in early April. This wheel has the unidirectional sidewalls with woven ID and OD (a layup concept now used by Hed's chinese manufacturer on all their products, but pioneered by Zipp beginning in 2001...so it is not so easy to pick our zipp wheels by the layup alone as mentioned earlier in the thread) and is similar to the shape in the images on Hed's website in that it has a wide brake track, smaller spoke bed radius with slight V shape and deep tire bed (except that the web images are full woven rims). this wheel does not beat the 808 with 21mm tire and is essentially equal with 23mm tires (slightly better actually at 15 degrees, but only by about 12 grams), though, the 404 Firecrest carbon clincher easily beats it at all angles between 0 and 20 degrees...but that's another story.

The wheel that velonews had, looks very much like a 1080 with a wider multi-radius spoke bed shape, but has a very wide brake track and 7.5mm deep tire bed (4.5-5 is normal). this wheel definitely beat the 808 in this test, no question, and I do commend Hed on producing a really fast wheel...the wheel is fast, I am not disputing that. In Hed's defense, this new shape is now shown in Hed's magazine advertising, but is still not what is shown on the website, so no idea what the official changeover date was, but in the retail channel and on the team side, I have bought 2 of these between March 1 and June 15 and had access to a third set from a Hed sponsored team, and none of them have this new bulbous spoke bed shape...I did get some time with the new wheel at the Tour Prologue with a Hed sponsored team and talked at length with the mechanics, as well as mechanics which had involvement in the VN test, so though I don't/can't own one yet, I do have some pretty good knowledge of it.

Rappstar is correct in that the 27.75-28.0mm brake track (the rim is painted, so there is a bit of variance) will not work with ZeroG brakes and is very tight with older SRAM and some model Shimano and Tektro (commonly rebranded with major bike brand names) brakes as well as the integrated chainstay brakes from Specialized and Cervelo. we can measure this from the actual brakes, as well as knowing that our sub9 is 28.5mm wide at the bulge, and only 26.5 mm wide in the brake track...and yet, has had fitment issues in some frames as has been discussed ad nauseum here on ST. As we experienced with the sub9, there is manufacturing variance in all of the subcomponents of a frame or brake, so it is nearly impossible to tell if a particular wheel will work in your particular frame or brake, and that is why there will be lots of conflicting information on this...'it won't fit at all in my Tektro/Cervelo brake'...'it fits great in my Tektro/Cervelo brake'... both are most likely correct as the brake assembly has over 2mm of allowed variance in MAX open width...so your experience may vary, but it seems from the article that the VN testers also had some issues here..

Ultimately, I think time will tell that Hed wins the 80-90mm deep wheel aero battle for a few months (you have to admit that the timing here is pretty awesome for them...this version of the 808 is almost 3 years old and the Stinger9 is brand new) but Firecrest will change things in a few weeks... With FC, we are equal to, or better than the Stinger9 at every data point, without having to resort to using a super deep or impact prone tire bed geometry and without limitation on tire pressure or tire size...in fact we might have been able to integrate the identical tire bed geometry and perimeter edge layup/geometry as the Paris-Roubaix winning 303...but I'm not saying for sure before Eurobike.

In the end, I feel that we are about to unleash something game changing...something lighter, more aero, more useable in more types of events, something with no limitations and no weaknesses when considering total performance...something that might have just won 5 TdF stages under a customer... but in the mean time, Hed will definitely has the more aero wheel for the rest of the summer.

Lastly, Vince is right that Cav's crash was on a Zipp wheelset...he will not ride anything else (he even mentions us in his book..), and has been a great customer of ours for a few years. Unfortunately the wheel was failed in the incident, but as Cav pointed out, when you get T-boned at 44mph, bad things happen. Attached is the picture of him signing it and giving it to me in Rotterdam...as he pointed out, Hausler hit him behind the hub, turning the wheel 90deg to the direction of travel, essentially taking the wheel from 44mph to 0mph in about 5cm...he still believes that had Hausler hit him in front of the hub, they both would have stayed up and sprinted for the win...these guys have unbelievable cajones!!! Though we have built wheels for him for a few years, this was the first time I'd actually met him. I was really impressed by a soft-spoken, introspective guy...not at all how the media portrays him at times. As he has said before, and told me that day 'don't listen to me when I have my helmet on'... he also spent 10 minutes showing me his 3 new pair of shoes, each a different color, as well as his new 'samurai' bike, I was also surprised by his interest in all the technology...

thanks for listening
Josh



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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Ah Bahram...he was pretty happy with the bike, not as much with his time this year! lol
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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Josh thanks for the post. It looks like we have a little AMD/Intel battle heating up, can you comment anymore on the 404 Firecrest CC. How does it compare against the current 808? Obviously it wins at 15 degrees but how about the rest of the data points?

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [JesseN] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Rappstar - when you say that the S9 doesn't fit Specialized bikes, do you mean tri bikes specifically, or all road frames as well?

Well...in the VN article they said that it wouldn't fit into the Tarmac SL2 of one of the test riders...oh, and they also said that they almost didn't fit into SRAM brakes with fresh pads.

They also stated "But the Stinger 9s are too wide for some brakes and some frames, to the point of total incompatibility. And the deep tire bed requires fat tires to avoid rim damage (which we've already experience to a small degree by using 21mm tires)."

Doh. I guess those wheels won't be going back for warranty replacement...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Good to hear from you Josh. You are right, it is fun! HED or Zipp in the end the customer wins because all the new technology it forces everybody to keep improving.

Don't worry HED fans we aren't sitting in the back of the pack though. Needless to say, Interbike will be very fun this year. That's all I'm going to say. We have a few things up or sleeves too.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 5:15
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
...though, the 404 Firecrest carbon clincher easily beats it at all angles between 0 and 20 degrees...but that's another story.

Tell me more...with what tires on both?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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ah competition at its finest, and we the consumer have everything to gain.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I was wondering, where (in what country) are the stinger series wheels made?

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Finally going to release those "Prototype" discs everyone's been running?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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The key question is what Stinger 9 wheel did VN test? Is it the regular 2010 retail wheel that some of us have purchased? In earlier post that is what Vince is saying. Or is it some new version of the Stinger 9 that Josh and Rappstar are implying is different than what HED has been selling? And don't know where anyone can get one at?

If it honestly is some new version of the Stinger 9 why would HED not make a big deal about it?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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The Stinger 9 tested is the EXACT SAME ONE!!!! the customer can buy from us when they say they want to buy a Stinger 9. (im pretty sure I said that 2x already) It is the same one we sent you too.

We dont have 2 kinds of Stingers, one for testing and one for sale. The wheel tested is the wheel we sell

I might be wrong but Zipp gets their carbon from overseas too. We get our rims from Taiwan but the carbon faring is made in Iowa, sent to Minnesota and them bonded to the rim by our guys. Then it is spoked, trued and sold

I think they have the same type of process too. Like I said, I might be wrong on that one


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 4:16
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Vince. I do realize you said it 2x times. Well 3x now. But both Rappstar and Josh indicate very specifically that it is not the same wheel.

From my point of view I don't know why HED would not brag about a new version if it was a new version. New sales to existing customers with some pretty good numbers to back it up. But Josh seems like a very straight up guy even if he works for a competing company and he is so sure it is a different wheel.

Maybe Josh could share why he is convinced it is not the same wheel. Some measurement difference or something.

For me my Stinger 9 would not fit inside TRP calipers. This is a front wheel. It was no big deal for me to grind down the brake pads. The brakes work great with the wheel now. It was not that close. This is with the brake completely let out and adjustment screw removed and the brake in released mode. It would not fit. I use Swiss yellow brake pads. But this fix, for me, was a non issue.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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Re-read thread and see what Josh is indicating is different about the wheel. I just measured my width at brake and it is 28mm with a digital caliper.

Tire is mounted so don't know how deep the bed is but I remember it being the deepest I have ever seen before. Almost seemed like you did not need to glue the tire.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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The EC90TT was ranked 4th in aerodynamics, but it, the 808 (2nd), and the Bontrager Aeolus 9 (3rd) are all extremely close. For practical purposes their real world performance should be nearly equivalent.

In fact I question their ranking of the Aeolus ahead of the EC90 since the Aeolus only beat the EC90 at one yaw angle, 10 degrees. They must just add up the difference in grams at each yaw angle to get a total ranking, and the Aeolus was enough better at 10 degrees to offset the other 5 data points.

Compared with the 808, the EC90 is a tiny bit ahead at 0 and 5 degrees, maybe 25-30 grams behind at 10 degrees, a tiny bit behind at 15 and 20 degrees, and a bit ahead at 25 degrees.

Of course, we all know that stiffness and rotational inertia are worth twice as much as aero, that's how Velonews added it up for their numerical rankings, and if they say so, it must be true. ;-)
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Lastly, Vince is right that Cav's crash was on a Zipp wheelset...he will not ride anything else (he even mentions us in his book..), and has been a great customer of ours for a few years.


I didn't realize that he only rode Zipp wheels. Actually, I was under the impression that he mostly rode HED wheels. Here are posts from HED's Twitter feed about Mark Cavendish during the Tour de France.

June 30: Follow the HED. sponsored teams at this years Tour de France: @HTCColumbia, @TeamRadioShack and @TeamSky

July 8: Great stage 5 finish! 2 HED. teams go 1 and 3. Cav 1st (HTC), bos hagen (SKY) 3rd. Pics to follow!

July 9: How about that Mark Cavendish, 2 in a row!!

July 15: Mark Cavendish does it again! 3 stage wins this year ............. Thats using your head :)

July 23: 4th Stage Win! Way to go Cavendish!!!

Though they don't say that Cav was on HED wheels for his wins, it seems to me that the intent of these posts was to imply that he was. Can someone clarify?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [JohnnySlimane] [ In reply to ]
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I personally love the 808 and hate the 1080! we have a 15km tt series locally and I ran some different wheels over different nights (did a couple of 2 per night too with runinng the 1080 first), by far the 1080 on a flat course was the slowest wheel I used compared to a 404, 808, easton ec90tt, and stinger 6. No matter if it was a cross or head/tailwind the 1080 I think just feels heavy and slow.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
But both Rappstar and Josh indicate very specifically that it is not the same wheel.


Sometimes its hard for "experts' to admit they are wrong.

as far as the Twitter post go ..... when Cavendish wins, HTC wins, we sponsor HTC so there for we are happy and want to tell everybody. There are more people on HTC that ride HED wheels than Zipp wheels. When RadioShack or Lance do well we promote that too and they are on Bontrager wheels and our faring.

If you would look at the other posts, when a HTC rider on HED wheels wheels I mention that. When cavendish wins i mention that he wins, not that we was riding HED wheels though. If you win on HEDS i say that if not, I say a HED sponsored team won


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 6:43
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [JohnnySlimane] [ In reply to ]
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Andre Greipel uses Heds. When Mark Cavendish wins, HTC wins, and Hed sponsors HTC. When Mark Cavendish's wheel folds in half, he rides Zipp. You're smart enough to figure out which wheels Cavendish races on.

Cavendish mentions Zipp in his book, even going so far as to say that he feared he wouldn't win a stage in the Tour two years ago because his team didn't put an 808 rear wheel on his bike, only a 404. He won anyway.

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The Stinger 9 tested is the EXACT SAME ONE!!!! the customer can buy from us when they say they want to buy a Stinger 9. (im pretty sure I said that 2x already) It is the same one we sent you too.

We dont have 2 kinds of Stingers, one for testing and one for sale. The wheel tested is the wheel we sell


Thanks Vince,

Didn't see this thread until this morning. I've been dabbling in the Lavender Room and Politics Only forum on Road Bike Review. You think this is a tough crowd ??? (:-)

So there have never been any versions of the Stinger 9 rim sold. I thought that there was a narrow version sold early on but now only the C2 is available. Sorry about the 4X request but it is sort of a different question ?? (:-)

I happened to have the tire off my front Stinger 9 which I bought in 2009 supposedly as the C2 version. Here are some measurements:

Rim Depth - 90 mm

Width of Rim at ~ center of Brake Pad surface - 26.0 mm

Tire Bead Outside Width - 24.1 mm

Max Rim Width - 27.1 mm

Depth of Tire Bed - ~ 5.0 mm (difficult to measure due to the residual glue)

Width of RXL Pro Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm

Width of Vitt CX 21 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm

Width of Vitt Crono II 22 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.0 mm

Wondering if you could please check on these measurements against the Stinger 9 specs.

Edit - correct Depth of Tire Bed
Last edited by: AFM: Jul 30, 10 7:42
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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Nah, its all good. Its fun.

You are correct about 2 yrs ago our Stigners, heck all of our wheels were the 19mm variety. They had the graphics that were clearcoated into the carbon.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Nah, its all good. Its fun.

You are correct about 2 yrs ago our Stigners, heck all of our wheels were the 19mm variety. They had the graphics that were clearcoated into the carbon.


Thanks - so I have the C2 version - dimensions all look OK. BTW the graphics are stickers with no clearcoat.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Oh yeah ..... Cavendish winning a stage at this year Tour of Cali ................ Notice the wheels, in particular the front hub ................ So he may be sponsored by Zipp but he rides our stuff too

:)




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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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