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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [simpy16] [ In reply to ]
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60 grams is about 30 seconds in a 40k if you're going 25mph, give or take

here is an approximation:
0.1 lbs (50 g) of drag (at 30 mph) = 0.5 s/km = 5 W = 0.005 m^2 CdA = 0.0005 Crr

Yaw is basically the "effective" angle of the wind. So if you take in to account the direction of the rider and the speed; and the direction of the wind and the speed, then you have a net resulting effect of the wind.

The slower the rider, typically the higher the yaw they experience. The faster the rider, the lower the yaw they experience.

The best way to visualize it is with Hed's little calculator:
http://www.hedcycling.com/...y/yaw_calculator.asp

I would recommend putting the rider North at 20-25mph, and then varying the wind direction at 5-10mph in various angles to get a feel for what kind of wind angles happen.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Back wheel Dimples - Front Wheel same carbon wrap as the back but it is a bad angle. Just look at the wrap and reflections. Front is a Zipp

click on the picture to see a bigger shot




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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 16:01
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
60 grams is about 30 seconds in a 40k if you're going 25mph, give or take

here is an approximation:
0.1 lbs (50 g) of drag (at 30 mph) = 0.5 s/km = 5 W = 0.005 m^2 CdA = 0.0005 Crr

Yaw is basically the "effective" angle of the wind. So if you take in to account the direction of the rider and the speed; and the direction of the wind and the speed, then you have a net resulting effect of the wind.

The slower the rider, typically the higher the yaw they experience. The faster the rider, the lower the yaw they experience.

The best way to visualize it is with Hed's little calculator:
http://www.hedcycling.com/...y/yaw_calculator.asp

I would recommend putting the rider North at 20-25mph, and then varying the wind direction at 5-10mph in various angles to get a feel for what kind of wind angles happen.

How does that change if the rider is only riding at, say, 22mph? 20mph? Just wondering which direction the time 'savings' go as the speed slows.
Thanks!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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They also work just fine with TRP brakes.

Richard Nixon, Fit2Tri Multisport Inc.
Fit2Tri,
rich@fit2tri.com
Discount code, slowtwithch
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

How does that change if the rider is only riding at, say, 22mph? 20mph? Just wondering which direction the time 'savings' go as the speed slows.
Thanks!

Time savings in number of seconds saved goes up the slower you go. Aero actually matters more in "time" for a slower athlete than a faster one. However, for the faster athlete, a smaller percentage of gain can make a huge difference, for instance in the TT world championships, where a few grams of drag can be the difference between 1st and 10th.

So basically, if a wheel will save an athlete riding 30mph 45 seconds over a given difference, it will save the athlete riding 20mph more than 45 seconds.

30mph is used in the wind tunnel because it is an accurate pro TT speed, and it has proven to scale to slower speeds very accurately.


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Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Irondicknixon] [ In reply to ]
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Some of the post against Rappstar are absurd.

I own both Zipp and Hed products- and like them both. That said the Velonews test is a bit goofy- testing apples to pears as it were.

Comparing rims of a different depth and width is fraught with danger. If they tested the Zipp 1080 vs the Stinger 9, clearly the 1080 would have won. Deeper is going to win in the HED v Zipp battle.

I can confirm my (shallower) Stingers fit in my Red brakes, but its close. They don't fit Zero Gravity (teammate sold me the Stingers because of this).

Buy from either company, they both make good stuff and test it. Tons of depths and widths too.

Wish they had tested Discs actually, the HED, Zipp Sub 9, Zipp Super 9, the Reynolds and one of the cheapo Renn Discs. That would be been much more interesting IMHO.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [simpy16] [ In reply to ]
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what was reported for the EC90TT?

theres been a lot of manlove for that wheel from a few people, was it part of this test?

In Reply To:
I see this has turned into a HED and Zipp debate but I was wondering if I can get some understanding about what the numbers are saying about the Easton EC90TT wheel set. I don't really understand all the talk about yaw and wind angle so if somebody could explain it to as if I were a 5 year old, also are those numbers really BIG differences or would a MOPer tell much difference across the board?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
what was reported for the EC90TT?

theres been a lot of manlove for that wheel from a few people, was it part of this test?

I sure hope my issue came in the mail today...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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How do you tell if you have a 2009 or 2010 Stinger 9? My number on the side of the wheel is 10DA35XX. The X's are numeric.

I am still confused from this thread. Was the wheel tested the 2010 Stinger 9 or some new Stinger 9?

On the brakes. I have TRP brakes and did have to grind down the Swiss Stop brake pads to fit. The caliper would not open wide enough. This is a front wheel. But once grinded down no problem.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I sure hope the Eeaston wheels sucked ballz or I'm going to have to eat my hat

thank science I do not own a hat


why do you hope they suck?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with you about how the wheel held up, impressive. But positive it is a Zipp 404 rim based on the photo I posted above. The carbon layup is clearly a Zipp.

I don't think any of us plan on laying down 2500W sprints on our tri bikes so what does it really matter? The make of that rim certainly has absolutely ZERO bearing on my wheel choice.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
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Comparing rims of a different depth and width is fraught with danger[/b]. If they tested the Zipp 1080 vs the Stinger 9, clearly the 1080 would have won. Deeper is going to win in the HED v Zipp battle.


Oh really? ........ (/evil grin)


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [simpy16] [ In reply to ]
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oh just a big argument with someone here that is sure they will be awesome and I was sure they would be a bit slower than zipp and hed

i dont REALLY hope they suck

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I sure hope the Eeaston wheels sucked ballz or I'm going to have to eat my hat

thank science I do not own a hat


why do you hope they suck?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Comparing rims of a different depth and width is fraught with danger. If they tested the Zipp 1080 vs the Stinger 9, clearly the 1080 would have won. Deeper is going to win in the HED v Zipp battle.



Oh really? ........ (/evil grin)

a while back there was a report in a German triathlete magazine comparing a bunch of wheels. They tested them in pairs, with a dummy with spinning legs. There was discussion of it here on BTR, and there are some cool graphs posted:

http://www.biketechreview.com/...riathlon-magazin-ger

They went from 0-15 in 2.5 degree increments. People can interpret for themselves. According to these data, to me the 1080's and S9's are a wash. The S9 is lower @ 10 degrees, but then spikes up. The curve is flatter for both the 808 and 1080 past 12.5 degrees
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar you came out firing with a bunch of claims about the HED Stinger 9 that are may be misleading and or simply incorrect and now are backtracking and seeking clarification.

Perhaps seek clarification first before trying to publicly turn people away from buying from the biggest competitor of your sponsor.

I spoke with the guys at Zipp. The measured the wheel that VN tested with calipers and measured it at 27.85-28.0mm wide in the center of the brake track, which was too wide for the brakes mentioned to accomodate *with new pads,* meaning that either it just plain didn't fit or the clearance was far too tight to allow ANY lateral movement of the wheel (meaning no standing). The ZG brakes won’t even fit on the rim, as they are roughly 27.5 between pads when fully opened. Based off their measurements of that wheel, even with a narrow flange hub, it would not fit the Specialized chainstays.

So perhaps Vince can reply to that claim directly with numbers.

Other that that, every claim I made was absolutely correct:
- VN tested the HED S9 with a 21mm tire, which as several people have pointed out, VOIDS HED's warranty.
"The Hed C2 tire well is most impact resistant with 23mm or larger tires. We do not recommend narrower tires, using a tire less than 23mm will void the warranty."

- The HED S9 will not fit Specialized in several bikes due to width. Vince himself clarified that you do need to request the wheels be built with a narrow flange hub in order to have them fit, though that stands in contrast with what measurements of the wheel that was tested show. But at the very least, even according to Vince, a standard build of the wheel will not fit Specialized (or bikes with equally tight or tighter stays).

So I fail to see where I did not do the requisite checks for objectivity. What I find interesting is that caliper measurements indicate that the wheel that was TESTED will not fit in a lot of brakes or a lot of wheels. Vince says that it does, and other people have as well. That makes me wonder if the wheel that was tested is in fact what you can actually buy. This wouldn't be the first time that someone sent in a product for testing that wasn't an actual production product.

Keep in mind that Zipp actually has more of an onus to be truthful about statements that they make regarding HED's wheels than HED does. If Zipp makes a statement that is false, that could be construed as libel. It's much easier to make false statements about your own product than it is to make false statements about someone else's products from a legal standpoint.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [electusunus] [ In reply to ]
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Although the Stinger 90 will be a little deeper than the 808. The fact that it is faster will help in producing lower yaws, in addition the airflow stays attached to a higher yaw. The combination of the 2 could produce a better handling wheel than the 808. Isn't it when the air stalls that we start the violent turbulence which creates poor handling? If the air never stalls then handling should be more than manageable. Competition is good, it helps us get better innovation. With that being said I would also like to know what Stinger 9 was tested. And to my knowledge the 2009 and 2010 stinger are the same except that one uses a 12K weave for the fairing (2009) versus a unidirectional layup (2010). The 2010 fairing is thus therefore lighter. I am rather frustrated though that you can never find this information without directly talking to someone at HED.

You really need to work the numbers on this one. The "lower yaw" allegedly produced by the incrementally faster wheel will be a delta of less than 0.1 degrees.


"Mars is a world completely inhabited by robots from another planet." -- RandMart (paraphrased)
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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Rappstar you came out firing with a bunch of claims about the HED Stinger 9 that are may be misleading and or simply incorrect and now are backtracking and seeking clarification.

I would say it would be much more fair to edit his post with clarification, but its up to him.

It is funny the way when Zipp wheels don't fit frames, it's the frames fault. When a Hed doesn't fit wheels, it's just a sign of their inferiority.

Zipp may have better hubs and lighter wheels but a lot of times people posting on their behalf or their posts themselves come off as though they are trying to overcompensate or something.

One other interesting note is that Vince at Hed chimes in at the forum for a variety of reasons, especially as of late to chat about the tour. The only time you see Josh Poertner or Waldo pop in to a forum is when their guns are blazing about their products.

I'll edit my OP with a note and or make a change when I get confirmation that I'm actually wrong. Just look at the responses in this thread - "the wheels fit TRP brakes" followed two posts later by "no they don't." And as someone has pointed out, they do not fit ZG, as I said. The measurements of the wheel tested dictate that it will not fit the calipers mentioned WITH NEW PADS - either not at all (ZG) or too close to actually be practical.

In any case, when what I've said is shown to be incorrect, I will make the necessary changes - but so far, only one of the 3 things I've said even MAY be incorrect. The wheel was tested with a tire that will void the warranty. The wheel will not fit in narrow-stayed bikes without a special hub (what other sacrifices that narrow flanged hub makes is a whole other topic), though measurements dictate that it won't fit at all. And it definitely doesn't fit a lot of the narrower brakes like ZG.

As for the Zipp/HED not fitting certain frames, keep in mind that the Zipp wheel that didn't fit - the Sub9 on the P4 - the Sub9 was out well before the P4 was released (about a year). If a bike maker makes a bike after a given wheels is made publicly available (for quite a while) and that's the wheel brand that their own pro tour team uses for wheels, yeah, I'd say that was the bike makers fault. If a wheel maker makes wheels for frames that have been out for a long time and it doesn't fit those frames, then I'd say that's the wheel makers fault. Furthermore, the bigger issue with the Zipp's not fitting on Cervelos like the P3 (where the bolt boss of the rear brake of the P4 was not an issue) is that they didn't fit on SOME Cervelos. I.e., some people would have them fit fine and others wouldn't. That's due to variation in the wrapping of the joints and variance in paint thickness. Both bike mfr. "issues." Zipp's variance for runout and thickness is so minimal that's it's impossible for it to have played any role in the wheels not fitting.

Vince works in sales. Josh P. is the head of Zipp's engineering department. When was the last time Steve Hed came on this forum to answer a question about his designs?


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar, you are now saying 3 statements MAY be incorrect - however the tone of your original post was clear, direct and "competitor bashing". It isn't just what you say it's how you say it.

You then mention individual variances/tolerances in measurements - well that may explain the HED not fitting frames/measurements with Zipp's calipers too.

I certainly appreciate your input, expecially when someone has a question relating to something you've used. I just didn't really think it was appropriate the way you handled your first post.

As for blaming frame makers, wheel makers etc we don't need that (not specifically directing this at you Rappstar). It's just the case that as both frame makers and wheel makes try and fill the same gaps there will be times when things collide. The thing about Zipp wheels are there are a few options if you have that sort of frame that is tight fit - you can go with the 900 which is a flat disc and there other deep wheels appear to be a bit thinner then HEDs. Hed doesn't appear to have that option.


While I'm at it - if I have standard Alex rims (30mm deep) for training, and then a set of Jets or Stingers with the new C2 rims for racing, does that mean I will have to adjust my brakes (which don't have a quick release adjuster) every time I put my race wheels on? And what about Zipps wheels, is that a similar story, or am I right in assuming that Zipp wheels are still relatively narrow at the braking surface.

And get the 808 Firecrest carbon clinchers out soon Zippo - we want to check them out. :):)
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Vince works in sales. Josh P. is the head of Zipp's engineering department. When was the last time Steve Hed came on this forum to answer a question about his designs?

Zipp has what hundreds of employees, we have maybe 20 people.

Granted I am in "sales" doesnt mean a thing. Anytime a HED "sales" person has a question we go directly to the source, Steve because he is in the shop working on making the fastest wheels faster. When is the last time the Owner of Zipp/SRAM posted? Better yet, when is the last time the owner sat down at a desk and answered calls from a customer, not a pro or sponsored athlete, Jo Schmo calling in with questions?

Numbers are numbers if they come from a "sales" guy or an engineer. Just because I dont have a title, in fact, nobody at HED has a title, doesn't discount what I say one bit. 99% of the time Steve has contributed to the answer but doesnt need to post it on here or anyplace else. That is why they pay me!

I could easily say that you being sponsored by Zipp, Specialized and SRAM are being a good company guy buy talking bad about the competition, but I wont. You are simply promoting the companies that help you. There is nothing worng with that. I do the same thing, we all do.

Next year, if you were sponsored by us you would be saying good things about HED and not ZIPP. I can understand loyalty but dont let it cloud your judgment.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 18:59
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Rappstar, you are now saying 3 statements MAY be incorrect - however the tone of your original post was clear, direct and "competitor bashing". It isn't just what you say it's how you say it.

You then mention individual variances/tolerances in measurements - well that may explain the HED not fitting frames/measurements with Zipp's calipers too.

I certainly appreciate your input, expecially when someone has a question relating to something you've used. I just didn't really think it was appropriate the way you handled your first post.

As for blaming frame makers, wheel makers etc we don't need that (not specifically directing this at you Rappstar). It's just the case that as both frame makers and wheel makes try and fill the same gaps there will be times when things collide. The thing about Zipp wheels are there are a few options if you have that sort of frame that is tight fit - you can go with the 900 which is a flat disc and there other deep wheels appear to be a bit thinner then HEDs. Hed doesn't appear to have that option.


While I'm at it - if I have standard Alex rims (30mm deep) for training, and then a set of Jets or Stingers with the new C2 rims for racing, does that mean I will have to adjust my brakes (which don't have a quick release adjuster) every time I put my race wheels on? And what about Zipps wheels, is that a similar story, or am I right in assuming that Zipp wheels are still relatively narrow at the braking surface.

And get the 808 Firecrest carbon clinchers out soon Zippo - we want to check them out. :):)

Nope, reread what I wrote. I made three statements in my OP:
1) the wheel will not fit in SRAM calipers, older Shimano calipers, or other narrow calipers such as ZG calipers. This could be construed as being three separate statements, though, in which case I made six statements (or seven if you include "other narrow calipers" and ZG calipers separately)

2) the wheel was tested with a 21mm tire, which will void HEDs warranty, making the test results somewhat impractical since it's a big risk to run the setup as it was tested, by HED's own admission.

3) The wheel will not fit in Specialized frames or other narrow-stayed bikes.

Of those statements, #2 is undeniably true.

#3 is slightly debatable in that Vince has said it will fit *if you get it built on special narrow flange hub.* The measurements that Zipp took of the wheel indicate that this is not the case, and that even with a narrow flange hub, their measurements of the rim (what they measured was given by me above) indicate that it still won't fit. HED does not publish the dimensions of their rim, and Vince has not made them available here. But at the very least, you need to have it built on a special hub, something which is mentioned nowhere on HED's own website. And worse case scenario is that based off caliper measurements of the rim, it won't fit regardless of what hub is used.

The statement(s) which seems to be the most debatable is whether or not the wheels fit SRAM calipers. Another poster has confirmed that they do not fit on ZG, so that's clear. Someone posted that they do fit TRP, but then someone else said no, so at the very least, it seems like it's a very tight fit, and may be related to whether or not the pads used were new. The "clarification" (not backtracking, IMO) that I wanted was regarding pads -the folks at Zipp said they were only referring to the wheel not fitting with new, stock pads, not shaved pads or some potential brand that makes narrower than normal pads or some other potential interaction with the brake as a unit.

On to your next question... Given what you've said about your training/racing wheels, yes you will have to adjust your calipers. As for Zipp, it would depend on what wheels you used. If you were using any of the current generation of clinchers, you likely would not have to adjust your calipers (I say likely because there is occassionally some variance with the *height* and vertical placement of brake tracks on certain hoops). But if you were going from Alex-->Zipp tubular rims (or 404 carbon clinchers), then you would need to make changes.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar - when you say that the S9 doesn't fit Specialized bikes, do you mean tri bikes specifically, or all road frames as well?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Granted I cant find a bigger picture but this is a Specialized we build up for the owner of Lifetime. He used it at this years Lifetime Triathlon (3 weeks ago).

You will see that it is a specialized with the Stingers 9's.

Granted Zipp and their calipers say it wont fit but I know it does. I saw the damn bike with the wheels on it!






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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 19:28
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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Vince, for clarification purposes...are the hubs in that photo HED's standard hubs or are they the narrow flange hubs that you spoke of?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Nate, I cant remember. I will check the build sheet in the morning.

I think .... think ...... it might be our regular hub (not the double flange) but the wheels he was using where our Flamme Rouge wheels so the hubs are a bit different.

i will check tomorrow


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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