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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...


If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.


Yeah...but if just running too small of a tire can likely cause rim damage (as the VN folks find out), will you be able to avoid it just rolling to a stop after flatting?


Valid question. My experience is that you would avoid damage if you were running the proper tire and stop as quickly as feasible.

If rim/tire interface of the latest Stinger 9 looks anything like this pic of a Stinger 6, heck I'd be worried about rim damage just from leaning over through a bumpy corner...even with the recommended tire size! Yeah...if you flat on that, you'd better stop REAL QUICK!





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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I've had the good fortune of racing and riding on 808s, Stinger 9s and 1080s for the past few years. My 808s were not warrantied after Zipp insisted a cracked rim was attributable to a crash and that was simply not so. I switched to Hed and sold all of my Zipps. I now am on Hed Stinger 90s/Vittoria 23 mm and love them as I feel they are much stiffer (the 808s required my opening the rear brake bridge before sprinting). Again this is one of those N = 1 things and my rear wheel was/is laced to a PT hub so the difference may be just in the hub as I went from a '08 2.4 sl to a '10 sl+ (larger axle diameter). I will say that I personally found the 1080 on the front only marginally more problematic with side winds than the 808 and the 90 seems to be somewhere in the middle under the same side wind conditions. That said, I'd like to point out my disappointment for Hed grossly misrepresenting the weight of their wheels if the VN weights are to be trusted...

The VN article has weights for mass and the 808s are 1566 grams (perhaps including skewers) which is 67 over the specs they give on their website. In contrast, the Stinger 90s weigh in at 1644 grams WHICH IS 140 GRAMS over the Hed website's specs of 1504 grams. I for one am not pleased about this since part of my purchase rationale for the 90s included the weight (recall I use these for road racing as well)!!


Perhaps this is a result of skewer differences but I doubt it.
Last edited by: xntrickly: Aug 1, 10 7:24
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.


I have a '09 Stinger9 FR (front)

does the '10 Stinger9 test faster?

has HED verified or commented on this?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.


I have a '09 Stinger9 FR (front)

does the '10 Stinger9 test faster?

has HED verified or commented on this?

*ACCORDING TO ZIPP* the '09 Stinger9 does NOT beat an 808, but the '10 (what was tested in Velonews) does indeed beat an 808, though exactly by how much depends on tire choice, pressure, etc. But with pretty much any "reasonable" tire and pressure, the '10 S9 - what was tested by VN - is indeed faster than an 808 by a pretty fair margin, but the '10 S9 has quite a few additional concerns, all of which are highlighted by VN in the article.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [xntrickly] [ In reply to ]
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I've had the good fortune of racing and riding on 808s, Stinger 9s and 1080s for the past few years. My 808s were not warrantied after Zipp insisted a cracked rim was attributable to a crash and that was simply not so. I switched to Hed and sold all of my Zipps. I now am on Hed Stinger 90s/Vittoria 23 mm and love them as I feel they are much stiffer (the 808s required my opening the rear brake bridge before sprinting). Again this is one of those N = 1 things and my rear wheel was/is laced to a PT hub so the difference may be just in the hub as I went from a '08 2.4 sl to a '10 sl+ (larger axle diameter). I will say that I personally found the 1080 on the front only marginally more problematic with side winds than the 808 and the 90 seems to be somewhere in the middle under the same side wind conditions. That said, I'd like to point out my disappointment for Hed grossly misrepresenting the weight of their wheels if the VN weights are to be trusted...

The VN article has weights for mass and the 808s are 1566 grams (perhaps including skewers) which is 67 over the specs they give on their website. In contrast, the Stinger 90s weigh in at 1644 grams WHICH IS 140 GRAMS over the Hed website's specs of 1504 grams. I for one am not pleased about this since part of my purchase rationale for the 90s included the weight (recall I use these for road racing as well)!!


Perhaps this is a result of skewer differences but I doubt it.

Just a quick "correction" on the physics involved with wheels hitting brakes. This is almost always cited as being the result of a wheel not being "stiff enough." That's actually not at all the case. The flat 900 disc is the wheel that most notably "hits brakes." The reason for this is because the wheel is EXTREMELY stiff laterally. Too stiff, in some people's opinions.

Think about why the wheels are hitting the brakes. There is no force being applied laterally at the top of the wheel. When people push on their wheels at the bridge from the side and say "look, it hits the brakes!" that is totally unrealistic. Try to imagine how you could ever generate that force while actually riding. What is actually happening is that the bottom of the wheel is getting move left/right as people stand and sprint. When a wheel has extreme lateral stiffness, the top will move left to right an equivalent amount. If a wheel has some reasonable amount of flex built in laterally, it can "suck up" this lateral travel of the wheel underneath the bike.

So when wheels hit the brakes, it's because they have TOO much stiffness, not because they have inadequate stiffness. The end result is the same, of course, your wheels are hitting your brakes, and that's a problem. But the actual reason why it happens is basically opposite of what people think. 808s are MUCH stiffer laterally than 404s. It's a lot easier for me to ping my brakes with 808s than with my 404s. And it's easier to ping it with 404s than with 303s. It's easiest to ping brakes with a 900 disc. But it's because the wheels are too stiff.

One thing to think about, though, what this means is that you are pinging your brakes because you are moving your bike a fair amount left to right. More flex in your wheels will help accommodate this. But the other thing you can do is NOT move your bike so much left to right. Keep in mind that all of the protour sprinters are running the exact same wheels you are. They don't ping their brakes (and Cav regularly runs an 808 rear). And the reason is that they move their body left to right a LOT, but the bike holds a very straight line. Moving your bike left to right is not going to make you go any faster. So if your wheels are/were hitting your brakes, it's not a problem with your wheels, it's a problem with how you sprint, which is a good thing, because it means there is "free" speed on the table.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.


I have a '09 Stinger9 FR (front)

does the '10 Stinger9 test faster?

has HED verified or commented on this?


Hey Gary,

Look back in the thread - I posted some measurements on my Stinger 9 front. Roady then added that there are 2 versions of the Stinger 9 with some recollections of what the drag data looked like. We both have the older version.

Vince from HED committed to checking into this next week so hopefully we will get some clarification and drag data from him on the older Stinger 9 version.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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Zipp has more $$ in machines and such as you pointed out, but HED has more $$ in shipping and outside contrctors. They also have to go to the foreign factories to make sure things are done correctly. Look at it this way, if you were starting a wheel company you would likely start by going to foreign makers, even if you had your own design. Each wheel would cost more, but the start up cost is much less.

I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but your assertions don't make sense to me. The cost of getting anything done is cheaper in Taiwan compared to the US... usually a lot cheaper. As such, I'd wager that the cost to Zipp of purchasing and using tooling in the US, is substantially more than the cost to Hed for having this contracted. Just because you own expensive tooling, this doesn't mean it is free... not by a long shot... and there is greater risk involved with the capital investment. The same goes for all the other aspects of the business that must done with higher wage scales.

The upside of having things done here (and all at one place) is greater control and better communication which can result in greater efficiency (ie fewer total man-hrs), but when you factor in the low wages in Taiwan, they can afford to be less efficient over there and still make higher profits. I don't see any substantial "cost savings" in it anywhere for Zipp, except for fewer plane tickets to Taiwan. It is simply a very different way of doing business, and one that used to be very common in the days when we actually built things in this country. I'd guess the reason Zipp does it is because they've been around a long time, and this is the business model they've always had and it works... they have been very successful and made good profits. If it ain't broke...

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [AFM] [ In reply to ]
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There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that.


Here is my timeline on the purchase of a Stinger 9 front wheel. On 1/23/09 I ordered a Jet Disc (which per the HED website performed essentially the same as the Stinger but was less expensive and was a bit better at low yaw) and Stinger 9 both C2 which I received ~ one week later. On 2/12/09 I sent an email to Andy at HED after I noticed that the Stinger Disc data had been changed on the HED website indicating that the Stinger Disc performed much better than the Jet Disc at higher yaws again IIRC. I suspect that the Stinger 9 data might have been changed at the same time but don't know. But maybe not as the new Stinger 9's didn't ship to the public until 11 months later - Jan 2010. Vince is checking into this although is riding across Iowa as I type. Hopefully at least he will be able to clarify and quantify the differences between the old an new Stinger 9. I'm OK if the old and new versions are "the same" up to 10 deg yaw. No complaints or judgments here - just a chronicle of my experience.


I have a '09 Stinger9 FR (front)

does the '10 Stinger9 test faster?

has HED verified or commented on this?


Hey Gary,

Look back in the thread - I posted some measurements on my Stinger 9 front. Roady then added that there are 2 versions of the Stinger 9 with some recollections of what the drag data looked like. We both have the older version.

Vince from HED committed to checking into this next week so hopefully we will get some clarification and drag data from him on the older Stinger 9 version.


AFM, Rapp, roady - thanks

So, assuming the '10 HED fits a P4 fork, for a ~90mm front TT wheel, I have these three front wheel choices (w/RXLpro22)

1. '09 Stinger 9 w/Hooker front brake
2. '10 tubular 808 w/Hooker front brake
3. '10 Stinger 9 w/[some other centerpull?] front brake
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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(almost forgot)

4. '10 Zipp 1080 w/hooker front brake

This last option is a bit more challenging in the wind as I ran it at states a couple of years ago at Palmdale, but if significantly faster than the other 3 options, I can make it work

So out of those four options .... ideas?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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How wide can the Hooker brakes open up? That's one very serious area of concern with the '10 S9. The dimensions of max width are in here, but it's 27.85-28.00cm at the brake track. That's too wide for several brakes, but I have no idea how wide the Hooker can open. Of course, you can always shave the pads or use really narrow profile pads like the Zipp Tangente, but just be aware of that particular concern.

You also cannot run an RXLPro22. Well, you *can*, but using a tire narrower than 23mm will void the warranty on the S9.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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How wide can the Hooker brakes open up?


I had to shave down the brake pads to fit the '09 S9

FWIW the Hooker is *significantly* faster than a Dura Ace front brake, can't discuss here, I can email you the results offline

I'd like to keep it on the P4

So, choice/differences between a '10 808, '09 S9, and '10 1080 ...?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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How wide can the Hooker brakes open up?


I had to shave down the brake pads to fit the '09 S9

FWIW the Hooker is *significantly* faster than a Dura Ace front brake, can't discuss here, I can email you the results offline

I'd like to keep it on the P4

So, choice/differences between a '10 808, '09 S9, and '10 1080 ...?

What's your exact timeframe? You could also wait for the Firecrest 808 - which is coming in both carbon clincher and tubular flavors, but I don't know the exact release date for each yet. The tubular version should come out first, since it is pretty well finalized and had to be for the TdF. That wheel bests the '10 S9.

If you need a wheel now, the 1080 is a great wheel, but I find it can be a bit much on windy days.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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How wide can the Hooker brakes open up?


I had to shave down the brake pads to fit the '09 S9

FWIW the Hooker is *significantly* faster than a Dura Ace front brake, can't discuss here, I can email you the results offline

I'd like to keep it on the P4

So, choice/differences between a '10 808, '09 S9, and '10 1080 ...?


What's your exact timeframe? You could also wait for the Firecrest 808 - which is coming in both carbon clincher and tubular flavors, but I don't know the exact release date for each yet. The tubular version should come out first, since it is pretty well finalized and had to be for the TdF. That wheel bests the '10 S9.

If you need a wheel now, the 1080 is a great wheel, but I find it can be a bit much on windy days.


Will the brake track on the '11 808 FC tubular exceed 23mm?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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My brake width is just shy of 28mm. The serial number starts with 10. So I am not sure if I have a 10 or 09 if there is really two different wheels.

How do we tell, if we have a tire mounted, if the wheel is a 09 or 10? A serial number starting with 10 mean it is a 10? What is the brake width on the 09?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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My brake width is just shy of 28mm. The serial number starts with 10. So I am not sure if I have a 10 or 09 if there is really two different wheels.

How do we tell, if we have a tire mounted, if the wheel is a 09 or 10? A serial number starting with 10 mean it is a 10? What is the brake width on the 09?

AFM posted the dimensions from what seems to be the '09 S9. Compare those with yours. Based off what you are saying - width at brake track = 28mm - you have a 2010, which would make sense to me based off of your serial #, but keep in mind I work for Zipp, not HED.

Here are the dims AFM gave:
Rim Depth - 90 mm
Width of Rim at ~ center of Brake Pad surface - 26.0 mm
Tire Bead Outside Width - 24.1 mm
Max Rim Width - 27.1 mm
Depth of Tire Bed - 4.6 mm
Width of RXL Pro Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm
Width of Vitt CX 21 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.5 mm
Width of Vitt Crono II 22 (320 tpi) Tubular - ~ 21.0 mm


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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How wide can the Hooker brakes open up?


I had to shave down the brake pads to fit the '09 S9

FWIW the Hooker is *significantly* faster than a Dura Ace front brake, can't discuss here, I can email you the results offline

I'd like to keep it on the P4

So, choice/differences between a '10 808, '09 S9, and '10 1080 ...?


What's your exact timeframe? You could also wait for the Firecrest 808 - which is coming in both carbon clincher and tubular flavors, but I don't know the exact release date for each yet. The tubular version should come out first, since it is pretty well finalized and had to be for the TdF. That wheel bests the '10 S9.

If you need a wheel now, the 1080 is a great wheel, but I find it can be a bit much on windy days.


Will the brake track on the '11 808 FC tubular exceed 23mm?

Yes. The average outer width (keep in mind, Zipp has non-parallel brake tracks, so the top of the brake track is narrower than the bottom) and the width at both the top and bottom will most certainly be wider than 23mm.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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serial # begins with "8KA" and is 24mm outer rim tire bead
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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serial # begins with "8KA" and is 24mm outer rim tire bead

if you're asking about your S9, I'm the wrong guy...


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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If my assertions don't make sense to you why did you restate them? I'm not sure what you see as the difference between what I said and what you said.

Styrrell.

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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VN wrote of the S9 ... "27mm at the brake track and even wider in the midsection"

article online here http://www.velonews-digital.com/...ws/201009?pg=26#pg74

my '09 Stinger 9 measures 24mm at the brack track outer-outer, this one tested measures 27.5mm

there are two different Stinger 9 wheels, the '09-'10, and this "new one"

based on the photo in the link above (zoom in), the trailing edge is much wider than the '09 model

and confirmed as a new wheel on their U.K. site:

"With its remodelled 90mm rim, the HED Stinger 9 not only outperforms every spoked wheel shallower than 90mm - as you would expect of a HED wheel - but it also outperforms all the spoked wheels deeper than 90mm.
The key to the unrivalled performance of the new HED Stinger series is in the shape of the rim, rather than its depth. Starting at the leading edge - the tyre - we have widened and deepened the cradle it sits in. The new tyre well is 28mm wide and is designed for a 23mm tubular. Because the walls come further up the sidewall of the tyre, the new rim shape not only smoothes out the unaerodynamic bulge of a narrow tubular in a narrow, shallow tyre well, but it also supports the carcass of the tyre, meaning better cornering and acceleration because of massively decreased tyre 'wash'.
Using three different types of carbon and a new lay-up has allowed us to increase lateral stiffness, while maintaining vertical compliance and shaving 25g off the previous rim weight. The new HED Stinger 9 is also 10 per cent more impact resistant than the previous version.
The HED Stinger 9 has a 90mm deep rim, and generally speaking the most gains from a deep rim are to be had at over 25mph, when yaw angle comes down. However, the HED Stinger 9's improved aerodynamics mean greater stability in crosswinds, because airflow remains smooth, reducing buffeting."
http://www.hedwheels.com/...l.asp?prod=StingerS9

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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If my assertions don't make sense to you why did you restate them? I'm not sure what you see as the difference between what I said and what you said.

In that case I agree with you...

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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Of course all this brings up the question of "What does the deeper well do to the rolling resistance of the tire"

I could see it both ways:
A) Better support = less squirm = lower RR
B) Better support =less shock aborbtion = worse RR

C is always an option = doesn't matter.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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for what it's worth, here's HED's data on the older Stinger 9, and a bunch of other wheels. I can't even remember where I got this, but it was posted on the interwebs somewhere and I saved it in my "cycling data" folder...

Note, I'm pretty sure the "82mm" is an 808 clincher. I don't see an 808 tubular on there. On this chart at least, past 17.5 degrees the S6 is faster than the S9. The S6 also looks slightly faster at lower yaws. This is definitely different than the current drag curve.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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Looking at this chart reminds me of some inconsistencies on Hed's website. If you look at the description (on HED website) of the Stinger 9 it says that it is optimal at 12.5 degrees and stalled out at 15 degrees. This old chart seems to match that description. However if you look at the drag chart and the velonews chart both seem to indicated that the stinger is even faster at 15 degrees and doesn't stall out to after 15 degrees. Maybe Vince can comment on it, and maybe the web guy can fix the website description so that both the chart and description actually match.

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