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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [leegoocrap] [ In reply to ]
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If you can't swim 25m without gasping for air, swimming more slowly (but more) will make you faster.


I disagree. If you are healthy and in reasonable condition yet can't swim 25m without gasping for air, then you are doing something fundamentally wrong with your technique, and no amount of swimming slower will make you faster.

I see a number of people (swimmers and triathletes) who are not going to get faster until they either improve their technique or start swimming harder. They all swim plenty of yards.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I have been following this thread with mild amusement, however I just want to point out one thing (IMO) I think keeps many triathletes in the "suck" mode in terms of swimming. Its called diminishing return on investment. I absolutely hate swimming and I suck (1:35-1:40/100's), however spending the time to get another 5-10 seconds isnt worth it for me. I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run. I went from zero biking to a 1hr, 40k type, in about 2 years. I have been running for 6 years and have a 38 min 10k, 3:10 open marathon pr. I enjoy running and biking more than swimming so that is what I focus on. I will not IGNORE my swimming, but really I dont care if I suck, I mean its only swimming...

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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You guys failed to pick the term "most" when I made that comment. "Most" does not refer to most elite triathletes, or even the seasoned ST contributor. Most people cannot currently go sub 3:00 for an OLY or 6 hours for a half IM. Those people will make bigger and safer gains from more volume in all three sports rather than just instantly adding intensity. They will get faster naturally.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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"I would guess a little of both: fatigue from other sports can carry over to swimming, tired legs are no fun for kicking

you probably DID get faster, then didn't swim enough to keep it."


That makes some sense--although I don't think the improvement I saw came from a stronger kick, so it was probably more a matter of decreased generalized fatigue rather than decreased leg fatigue.

In any case, let's hope a return to higher swimming volume this winter will bring me results that will carry over into IMFL the following fall!

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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I have been following this thread with mild amusement, however I just want to point out one thing (IMO) I think keeps many triathletes in the "suck" mode in terms of swimming. Its called diminishing return on investment. I absolutely hate swimming and I suck (1:35-1:40/100's), however spending the time to get another 5-10 seconds isnt worth it for me. I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run. I went from zero biking to a 1hr, 40k type, in about 2 years. I have been running for 6 years and have a 38 min 10k, 3:10 open marathon pr. I enjoy running and biking more than swimming so that is what I focus on. I will not IGNORE my swimming, but really I dont care if I suck, I mean its only swimming...
The point is, if you go harder during the yards you're doing, you'll get faster without spending more time in the pool.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Boudreaux] [ In reply to ]
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"You'll be fine and up to a 55 min IM swim in no time, as this is the ST median and expected of all who post here."

For some reason the pink font isn't displaying properly on my machine.

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Boudreaux] [ In reply to ]
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You'll be fine and up to a 55 min IM swim in no time, as this is the ST median and expected of all who post here.

Looks like some people other than my parents are going to be disappointed for the foreseeable future. Thanks Slowtwitch!

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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One of the things I find intersting about these types of swimming threads is that, while 100s of triathletes a year are taking some steps to try and improve their swimming and debating which weird ass method is best, there are literally 1000s of new kids showing up at local club teams taking up the sport every year. The methods used to get those kids from 25 yd dog paddlers to clocking what would be MOP swim times for any triathlete are very well established. The path is well documented, had tens of thousands of trials and it work. Actually, the tricky part of coaching swimming only comes once you get to the point where you are trying to stretch the talend of a random kid so he can have a shot at making a state cut or geting your superstar up to the next level. Basic how to swim reasonably fast by triathlon standards and what to do over time to get anyone there is simple.

But, it takes work and most folks don't want to work in the pool.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [STP] [ In reply to ]
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One of the things I find intersting about these types of swimming threads is that, while 100s of triathletes a year are taking some steps to try and improve their swimming and debating which weird ass method is best, there are literally 1000s of new kids showing up at local club teams taking up the sport every year. The methods used to get those kids from 25 yd dog paddlers to clocking what would be MOP swim times for any triathlete are very well established. The path is well documented, had tens of thousands of trials and it work. Actually, the tricky part of coaching swimming only comes once you get to the point where you are trying to stretch the talend of a random kid so he can have a shot at making a state cut or geting your superstar up to the next level. Basic how to swim reasonably fast by triathlon standards and what to do over time to get anyone there is simple.

But, it takes work and most folks don't want to work in the pool.
Amen.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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I have been following this thread with mild amusement, however I just want to point out one thing (IMO) I think keeps many triathletes in the "suck" mode in terms of swimming. Its called diminishing return on investment. I absolutely hate swimming and I suck (1:35-1:40/100's), however spending the time to get another 5-10 seconds isnt worth it for me. I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run. I went from zero biking to a 1hr, 40k type, in about 2 years. I have been running for 6 years and have a 38 min 10k, 3:10 open marathon pr. I enjoy running and biking more than swimming so that is what I focus on. I will not IGNORE my swimming, but really I dont care if I suck, I mean its only swimming...


You could conceivably knock 5 minutes off your 1500m swim time with some work. What do you think it would take for you to get to 55:00 on the bike, or 33:00 in the run?

I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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Ken:

I agree with you, however since I make a living at doing something other than S/B/R, I want to make sure I enjoy the process. I will not ignore swimming but I will have more fun trying to get to a 55m 40k bike! Plus, swimming is a necessary evil for me at this point, as I will continue to bike as long as I am able and will drop swimming like a fricken bad habit. I am a competitve person, I do not show up to a race for a shoe shine, however I like to keep it in perspective as well.

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.
Yes, but those you beat would be better off looking at themselves to see where they should best spend their time or put their emphasis rather than looking at how you spend your time or where you put your emphasis. It is pretty rare in this sport that the first person out of the water is the first person across the finish line.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.

Yes, but those you beat would be better off looking at themselves to see where they should best spend their time or put their emphasis rather than looking at how you spend your time or where you put your emphasis. It is pretty rare in this sport that the first person out of the water is the first person across the finish line.


And the answer they will find the majority of the time is that it is the swim where they have the most likely chance to make up the time difference. I'm a decent runner and biker, but they really suck in the water.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.

Yes, but those you beat would be better off looking at themselves to see where they should best spend their time or put their emphasis rather than looking at how you spend your time or where you put your emphasis. It is pretty rare in this sport that the first person out of the water is the first person across the finish line.


And the answer they will find the majority of the time is that it is the swim where they have the most likely chance to make up the time difference. I'm a decent runner and biker, but they really suck in the water.
You had implied that the difference in time between them and you was entirely in the swim. If you are only a decent biker and swimmer I could see someone coming to a different conclusion. Anyhow, these different opinions is the fodder for lively discussions.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Gerry,

With a wetsuit would you still advocate 80+ OW stroke rate? I swam today with a wetronome set to 70spm and was a little over a minute faster than at 55spm over about ~800 yards in the local lake. Not sure if I can at this point or even should in the future aim for higher?

Thanks
Ian
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Just wanted to ad my 2 cents on TI.

TI got me from not being able to swim more than 100yards to being able to swim a mile in 48 minutes in about a month's time.

Desert Dude and the U of D swim coaches got me to swim my IM in 1:17, which is 32 minutes a mile in open, choppy waters, while saving some for the rest of the day.

not sure I would give credit to TI for that though. That's just time in the pool.
I was about the same when I started and just did it on my own. And my form SUCKS! :)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ianbal] [ In reply to ]
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Gerry,

With a wetsuit would you still advocate 80+ OW stroke rate? I swam today with a wetronome set to 70spm and was a little over a minute faster than at 55spm over about ~800 yards in the local lake. Not sure if I can at this point or even should in the future aim for higher?

Thanks
Ian


That's interesting. How did it feel - how does it feel now?

I'd like to hear from Gerry...

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ianbal] [ In reply to ]
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Ian: Gradual improvements over time as your specific muscular endurance and power is developed. But, in general, yes, moving toward 80 is the target. One can never be fast at 55.....at least not as fast as their potential. Good luck!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.

Yes, but those you beat would be better off looking at themselves to see where they should best spend their time or put their emphasis rather than looking at how you spend your time or where you put your emphasis. It is pretty rare in this sport that the first person out of the water is the first person across the finish line.

Unless your last name rhymes with Rotts.


--Chris
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Your call:

1 2595 I Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 21:03 1:01:50 43:23 2:09:06
2 2599 I Jim Sonneborn M 50 MORRISTOW NJ 24:58 1:01:02 43:03 2:12:18


1 16 411 SPRINT Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 11:13 59:17 20:59 1:34:31
2 18 400 SPRINT David Blume M 50 WABAN MA 14:40 57:20 20:21 1:35:25


1 5003 S Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 5:41 44:25 21:11 1:13:18
2 5002 S Mark Danieli M 50 CHELMSFOR MA 7:02 42:28 21:44 1:13:26

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Last edited by: Just Old Again: May 20, 10 12:49
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you need to take up duathlon. Liberate yourself from the swim! :->



"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [teekona] [ In reply to ]
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Funny you mention that, did my first one this weekend, 2nd in my AG! I am looking for more to do this year.

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Gerry: Thanks. I will keep moving it up as I adapt to a faster rate.

Boudreaux: I started the swim without any warmup in water in the 50s and it felt rushed and breathing was harder initially. I usually breath bilaterally with the 2/3 pattern garyhallsr mentioned. I ended up doing some more of 1 stroke/1 breath. I then settled down into my normal breathing pattern. I also noticed that the stroke was much shorter at the rear otherwise I couldn't hit the target. This mirrored another one of garys posts. I also didn't pull as hard on each stroke. It felt good enough to say that I am going to continue on this path.

I started prior to this thread because I noticed on seeing a copy of the Beijing 10k swim how fast the stroke rate was. I had never counted the rate though and prior to Gerry's post would not have tried even 70. Just watched the men's Seoul ITU swim and the rate was over 80 as well.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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Ken:

Not to split hairs here, but an arguement could be made if those dudes that finished second to you would have had decent run times they would have won. Just saying...

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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Your call:

1 2595 I Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 21:03 1:01:50 43:23 2:09:06
2 2599 I Jim Sonneborn M 50 MORRISTOW NJ 24:58 1:01:02 43:03 2:12:18


1 16 411 SPRINT Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 11:13 59:17 20:59 1:34:31
2 18 400 SPRINT David Blume M 50 WABAN MA 14:40 57:20 20:21 1:35:25


1 5003 S Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 5:41 44:25 21:11 1:13:18
2 5002 S Mark Danieli M 50 CHELMSFOR MA 7:02 42:28 21:44 1:13:26


Good stuff, Ken. Keep in mind that Olympic races favor strong swimmers. For Half or Full IM's, the swim becomes a smaller percentage of overall time.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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