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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cubfan24] [ In reply to ]
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Cubfan74,you make a good point. I think that many share your concern(including me when I first got into TI) about the"glide". It is tricky to explain, as my posts have proved.I will try using the anology of boxing and see if that helps(it may not,ha ha).There are many ways of punching and boxing and this is NOT ment to explain fighting but a way to help understand TI.Think of"catch and pull" has a boxer throwing a flurry of punches in quick succession.Think of Total Immersion as a fighter"turning"his shoulder as far as he can,"pushing"his fist,arm and hip as hard as he can and"gliding" or following through with all his weight.We can swim or box either way.If we come out and fight with a flurry of punches we can win the fight and as I say if you want to swim or fight that way,fine with me.But the"turn,push and glide"method has large advantages if you fight OR swim.Every punch OR stroke has WAY MORE power,your ENTIRE body is involved,not just your arms.Try it,throw your whole body into a punch as opposed to just your arm,the difference is huge.Because it has so much power you USES less strokes therefore less energy.The glide is the follow through.IF you turn your shoulders 90 degrees your power will be maximum AND your glide will be smoother easier and faster.People either don't push hard enough OR don't turn there shoulders enough.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Again, when it comes to the glide in water it is almost nonexistent. Even at the speed of a Micheal phelps in the water, he may approach about 3 1/2 mph at full speed but if he stops his stroke at full speed ( stops pulling and kicking) he will come to a complete stop in 0.9 of a second. I can also use the example that after Phelps dives off the starting blocks, he is at about 16 mph. When he hits the water he instantly slows to that 3/12 mph which is about his top speed. My point is water as I mentioned earlier is 800 times more dense than water. there is no speed in the glide, if there were, certainly there would be an accomplished swimmer somewhere in the world who would use it. Every swim team from grade school through the olympic caliber swimmers are coached to increase their stroke rate to get faster. TI is a comfortable and smooth way to swim but it is not a fast way to swim. Your boxing analogy really dosn"t fit what a good swimmer with a high stroke rate is really doing, I've converted from a TI swimmer to more of a shoulder driven high stroke rate swimmer and have become much faster. your example of a high stroke rate swimmer not using body rotation and generating power from the core is inncorrect. In my case, I generate most of my power from strong core rotation,and a full reach. I just do it a lot faster than a TI swimmer. You also stated that the body and shoulder rotation should be to 90 degrees, no fast swimmer that I've ever seen rotates that far. that is simply to far in my opinion to maintain any leverage in your stroke and keep the forward inertia fast enough to keep ypu high in the water. TI is a great stroke for a nice comfortable long swim that takes little energy, but as I stated earlier it is simply not fast. If it were, someone certainly would have won a race somewhere using it.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cubfan24] [ In reply to ]
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Good feedback Cubfan24! We were sort of at this impass earlier in this thread. Then someone posted Magnussen winning a race using"catch and pull".He was FAST,high in the water and did about 37 strokes per length.Then someone else posted a video of Sun Yang winning a race using TI(although some said it was not"text book"TI).He was lower in the water,had a longer stroke(about 29 strokes per length).As I say you can win with either.If you are faster with"catch and pull"by all means do it.I am not arguing that everyone should do TI,but everyone should TRY it.I think the major difference between TI and"catch and pull"is HOW you get fast.You want to get fast with"catch and pull"swing your arms faster,do more strokes,and get higher in the water.You want to get fast doing TI,get lower in the water, THROW your arm forward and SNAP every muscle in your body with PERFECT TIMING!It is a LOT easier to swing your arms faster then perfect your timing and that is why most do"catch and pull".
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a complete non swimmer. I'm still slow too.

I started out just flailing on my own when I did my first TRI 2 years ago in June. I then went the TI route and read, watched the videos and did the drills. The one thing I did learn from TI was balance. And I also got to where I could swim the distance but at a pace that box turtles would laugh at.

Then I did finding freestyle last year and did drills that improved my stroke rate. I got a bit quicker (it's all relative).

Now I'm going to master swimming, and I'm finally learning how to pull properly. I'm getting faster still.

Honestly, I don't think TI alone would have gotten me to the point I am today. It sure would have sucked on my last TRI in the chop against a decent current. I don't think either school of thought is a complete answer. I think balance, rotation, and a good pull are all needed to be a quick to fast swimmer. I think TI only addresses part of that puzzle. My current Master's swim coach is addressing many different parts of the puzzle too. I'm one of the slower people in my master's swimming, but I'm far from being the slowest on race day. I encountered a woman at the hotel pool (my wife works at this hotel and they have a nice 25m, yes meter, indoor pool), and she was doing perfect TI drills. She was also much leaner than I am. She also didn't swim laps as quickly as I was and she was also just as out of breath as I was. When I was swimming 300m repeats, I was marginally quicker. When I finished with my 50m sprints though, I was just plain faster. If I follow the advice of my coach and keep training, I will soon be swimming my 300m repeats at the same speed I can do 50m repeats now. There is no way that would ever happen with just TI.

And honestly hotman, you are probably arguing with a few people that can literally swim circles around you in open water here. There are quite a few tools on ST, but there are also a lot of plain fast triathletes around here. And while triathletes aren't the best swimmers, a lot of them are pretty dang fast in the water. Tomorrow in the first lane a bunch of guys will be swimming 1:10 to 1:15 pace all day long. I"m going to be in the 2:00 lane, lane 6. I hope in another 6 months, I can move to lane 5. I bet the average TI swimmer would get lapped repeatedly in lane 6.

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to see you made it out of TI with your brain intact;) For anyone who wants to read evidence based articles on why TI can't and won't lead to fast swimming feel free to read. Evidence based beyond anecdotal and the glaring fact you don't find fast TI swimmers>>>> to the kind of evidence from guys with pocket protectors and lots of letters behind their names. I realize it's a bit different than 'LOL' and boxing analogies so mea culpa for upping the ante with respect to gray matter utilization. Oustanding site with tons of studies from limb/water velocities, drag and even on to the psychological frontiers.

Read a neat one detailing how swimming short course vs long can lead to changes in fitness and stroke rate/length. I knew I always felt different beyond swimming longer b/t turns when long course opened up, but never considered the other aspects. Long course pool opens this weekend! Damn scy drives me nuts vs lcm.

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/toussai1.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/schnitzl.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/biomechs/keys.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/fernande.htm
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 24, 12 7:32
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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Shush, don't bring actual swimming into it. I'm learning everything I need to know about swimming by watching old Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard fights.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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AnthonyS,many others have said what you do,that you take the best from both methods and that is fine.The difficulty I have with this approach is that the MAJOR techniques of the two styles DIRECTLY CONTRADICT EACH OTHER.You mention rotation and balance from Total Immersion and the pull from"catch and pull".If I rotate my shoulders a lot(pretty close to 90 degrees) and then try to reach above my head to get a good"catch and pull"my speed falls WAY OFF.The two motions tend to work against each other.That may be why people say gliding does not work. In my opinion I then have one of two options,either reduce my shoulder rotation and get a better"catch and pull" OR keep a large rotation and enter the water close to head and PUSH my way through the water.It is far easier for the average person to make make a quick improvement in speed by reducing shoulder rotation and increase stroke count then it is to perfect the timing required for a fast"turn push and glide".
You mention"touch typing"on your post and I think that applies a little to swimming.Typing has two main methods,just like swimming.In typing it is"hunt and peck" OR touch typing.Just like swimming people can be fast with both methods(Issac Asimov was amazingly fast with hunt and peck).With a LITTLE practice the average person will be faster with"hunt and peck" because he can see the keys.Touch typing requires steps that are COUNTER INTUITIVE(just like Total Immersion).One step is you can't LOOK AT THE KEYS. And of course touch typing takes WAY WAY more practice but
virtually everyone admits touch typing is WAY better.Of course as I say,practice TI and see for yourself.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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I found a video of MJuric swimming the "TI" at my local pool a few years ago....I wonder if he would kill m if I was to post it.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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R10C wrote:
I found a video of MJuric swimming the "TI" at my local pool a few years ago....I wonder if he would kill m if I was to post it.


I love watching Total Diversion swim clips. 'Watch how pretty this is, but don't time my laps please."
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 24, 12 9:29
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Funny you mention counter intuitive and repeat your push and turn argument. First of all touch typing is like this Droid or an iPhone where you cannot feel the keys. Hunting and pecking is more akin to a nonswimner thrashing wildly. TI would be like typing while meditating and taking lots of relaxation breaks. Typing is a skill. I can type faster than you can hunt and peck.

Your fallacy is that you assume only TI provides swim power via the core. Well that isn't true. I challenge you to put up or shut up as they say in auto racing. Let's see your mad TI speed. I'm a slow swimmer but I guarantee most everyone on here can swim faster than you. Let's see some vids if your blazing lap times. Heck if you are near Dallas I'll buy your guest pass and you can come wow local triathletes in person.

TI taught me balance and rotation, but I had a super crappy pull. Why not take balance, rotation, and add a better pull too it? This is where you completely miss the mark by a mile. You can't punch through water more effectively than you can pull through it. I know TI recommends the fist drill. I still do that one. But go put on some paddles and demonstrate your awesome punching and gliding skill. Then for fun go try it headed into the wind in open water.

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I looked at those studies you posted.Talk about gobblety-gook! Swimming is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!Just about the only sentence that made any sense was this,"in moving the body forward the swimmer also moves water backwards".Hearing that sentence people might think,"the MORE and FASTER I move water backwards, the faster I go forward". That is exactly the theory of catch and pull. And as i say,you can go fast doing it that way IF you want to WASTE A HUGE AMOUNT OF ENERGY. If you want to do it the easy way do"turn push and glide". Many on here seem to be hysterical because TI is"too slow".If TI is slow it is because people are not DOING IT RIGHT!!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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AnthonyS,your sentence,"why not take balance,rotation and add a better pull too?" does not quite work because the BEST balance and rotation technique CONTRADICTS the BEST pull technique.In other words you can't have your cake and eat it too,ha ha.To the extent you do one you have to compromise on the other.You want to see Total Immersion done FAST,watch Sun Yang set a world record in the 1500 meter freestyle.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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so for those bashing on TI, where do i go to learn how to swim properly? and fast?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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The have your cake and eat analogy is old and stupid. If I eat my cake I have it in my stomach.

I want to see you swim not Sun Yang. I've seen his video. How about him versus Taylor Ports at Kona? I wont get to see that either. Like most brainwashed cultists you will never out up or shut up, will you?

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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Hotman, If you think Sun Yang is a TI swimmer, then you are deluded beyond redemption. There are so many different styles displayed by elite swimmers, you cannot possibly believe that by cherry picking the one that suits your (messed up) thesis, you are making a decent argument.

If TI is fast, please post links to youtube videos, if you are not comfortable posting one of yourself. Also post a list of records by swimmers coached with the TI method, which must surely be very long if you are right. Show us the evidence, then there will be no need for arguing.
Last edited by: pat80: May 24, 12 15:17
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Sun Yang doesn't swim TI. He swims with an extreme EVF, and he does have a pause at the front of his stroke, but that isn't TI. He rides higher in the water, he uses his legs, and he certainly does not rotate his shoulders to 90 degrees. TI also says to "Penetrate the water with your fingers angled down and fully extend your arm well beneath your head. Extend it lower and further than you think you should." Yang keeps his hand very close to the surface until the catch. I also dont see anything resembling him pushing his way through the water.

It's easy to look at one or 2 aspects of a stroke and say "Oh, that must be TI".

one other thing. Most real swimmers are CONSTANTLY working on their stroke. If something works, the feedback is immediate (faster times). If it doesn't work, it gets thrown out. A lot of guys who swim do something pretty close to TI every day, its called warm-up. Another thing they do which is close to TI is catch-up drill. Neither one is fast.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Pat80 and Jason,you both make good points. There is no absolute method to swimming or biking or running for that matter. TI is not an absolute method and"catch and pull" is not an absolute method.I was NOT the person that put the Sun Yang video on here. The Sun Yang video was a response to the Magnessen video.An(I think weak) argument can be made that Yang is NOT Total Immersion,at least in the details.But a better argument CAN be made that Yang Is Total Immersion COMPARED to Magnessen and the other people Yang raced against.Just listen to the announcers.THEY say"he keeps his head low in the water",THEY say he is"so easy,efficient in the water',THEY say,"dragging his feet,really relaxed kick"THEY say"it is misleading how fast he is going he looks so efficient"(again),andTHEY say"he is swimming like a recovery freestyle"! And as I say he does 29 strokes per length,less then the others.ALL OF THOSE STATEMENTS MATCH Total Immersion(IMO) and NONE of them match"catch and pull"(Again IMO).So some may say Yang is not"textbook"TI, everything the anouncers said and I observed would lead to me to conclude that what he does is Total Immersion in every way that COUNTS!
IF THE ABOVE is true(I think it is,ha ha)then Sun Yang swims TI AND he is Faster AND more efficient then anyone else(at least at that distance) then everybody who wants to be fast AND efficient should at least TRY Total Immersion(the point I made in the beginning).
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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i thought the three most important things in TI were to turn your shoulders to 90 degrees, push, and then glide? Yang has a fairly conventional shoulder roll, a strong emphasis on EVF (which enables a strong pull), and a bit of a glide. By your own definition of TI, Yang's stroke isn't it.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Until we see hotman's video in the water, he is nothing but another hungry troll, and/or a very well brainwashed cultist with an ANNOYING way of using the CAPS LOCK. Put your money where your mouth is hotman, SHOW us your FAST, cuz your WORDs aren't selling it to this crowd.

"It never gets easier, you just go faster."
-Greg LeMond

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Jason- I think maybe I see where the confusion is happening(but we will see,ha ha).I saw a video of what they were calling EVF.The video they showed was a TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE OF TOTAL IMMERSION,in my opinion.The EVF portion of the stroke is the pull portion of the stroke.The thing is that using EVF is NOT the main source of power in Total immersion.The main source of power in TI is turning(or rotating or rolling whatever word you like)then PUSHING your arm through the water,then SNAPPING your shoulder and hip to drive your body forward.The EVF pull and the kick only supply a small portion of the total power(I think less then 20%).Yang is not going faster because his EVF pull or his kick is any better then anyone elses,he is going faster because the timing of his full body turn,push and snap is PERFECT.I would bet that Magnessen has a WAY stronger pull and kick then Yang but his turn,push and snap/glide are not near as good,he is just too high in the water.Over a short race Magnessen might have a small advantage but in a long race Yang would have a HUGE advantage.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Oh my....

<<<shakes head and walks away>>>

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
The thing is that using EVF is NOT the main source of power in Total immersion.The main source of power in TI is turning(or rotating or rolling whatever word you like)then PUSHING your arm through the water,then SNAPPING your shoulder and hip to drive your body forward.

No. The source of power in TI is pulling the water back and kicking. You cannot move forward unless you do that, even if you rotate and twist like a freakin' propeller. Unless you are shaped like one, of course.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [pat80] [ In reply to ]
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This has easily turned into one of the most entertaining comedy threads of all time. I hope hotman continues to post hit after hit.....lightheir thanks for starting this thread!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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The thing is that using EVF is NOT the main source of power in Total immersion

I know that, but not for the reason you think. TI advocates "spearing" and getting your lead hand deep in the water before starting the pull. EVF starts with the hand near the surface and getting the forearm vertical while keeping the upper arm near the surface.

No-one, and by that I mean no-one other than yourself, advocates pushing your way through the water. Not even TI.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
The thing is that using EVF is NOT the main source of power in Total immersion

I know that, but not for the reason you think. TI advocates "spearing" and getting your lead hand deep in the water before starting the pull. EVF starts with the hand near the surface and getting the forearm vertical while keeping the upper arm near the surface.

No-one, and by that I mean no-one other than yourself, advocates pushing your way through the water. Not even TI.

if water is SO much thicker then air, wouldn't you want to keep your hand OUT of the water in the front quadrant as long as possible? shouldn't it be EASIER to move the arm through the air since it is less dense??? like karate chopping a brick vs a bar of butter...i'd karate chop the bar of butter all day.

on a side note...referencing cadence/turnover/etc...this is ALL related to your height/arm span. someone with shorter arms in relation to their body will tend to naturally have a higher turnover while someone with longer arms will tend to have a lower turnover...right?

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