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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cafe Lactate] [ In reply to ]
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Cafe Lactate wrote:
hotman637 wrote:
If people are not going fast doing TI they are not"thrusting"HARD ENOUGH.


Seriously, folks? This is just too easy...

total immersion, not thrusting hard enough?

Hard = more effort = more energy = less efficient, no?

Or is there a "tipping point", so to speak?

Mrs. Duffy is always telling me to thrust harder when I'm doing Total Immersion with her, and it definitely gets her to the tipping point.

But as far as swimming goes, I really have nothing to say.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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nope , but you sound like Terry's boyfriend.. lol
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:

Mrs. Duffy is always telling me to thrust harder when I'm doing Total Immersion with her, and it definitely gets her to the tipping point.

But as far as swimming goes, I really have nothing to say.

Finally a post worthy or a real response!

When you turn to spear Mrs. Duffy, what is your stroke rate?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
Duffy wrote:


Mrs. Duffy is always telling me to thrust harder when I'm doing Total Immersion with her, and it definitely gets her to the tipping point.

But as far as swimming goes, I really have nothing to say.


Finally a post worthy or a real response!

When you turn to spear Mrs. Duffy, what is your stroke rate?

I haven't counted, but going by Mrs. Duffy's constant commands to go faster, my stroke rate is never quite high enough. That is, of course, until we hit that sometimes elusive tipping point.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
Duffy wrote:


Mrs. Duffy is always telling me to thrust harder when I'm doing Total Immersion with her, and it definitely gets her to the tipping point.

But as far as swimming goes, I really have nothing to say.


Finally a post worthy or a real response!

When you turn to spear Mrs. Duffy, what is your stroke rate?


I haven't counted, but going by Mrs. Duffy's constant commands to go faster, my stroke rate is never quite high enough. That is, of course, until we hit that sometimes elusive tipping point.


See right there is your problem. You can't be afraid to try TI. I know it's not rocket sturgeon stuff, but until you try it you won't know if it works for you. Just turn your shoulders 90 degrees and spear hard. Glide into position, but don't use external stimuli to judge your stroke rate. Time is not important, as I say. Just (LOL!) try it you won't know til you mix the styles of swinger and turnspearglide! (none of this ridiculous vocabulary will make sense unless you have been following hotmans posts).
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 28, 12 12:19
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I gotta go find Mrs. Duffy before I soil my keyboard...

I'll get back to you in about 3.37 minutes.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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...Total failure (according to Mrs. Duffy). Now I have to make my own lunch.

I'm going back to doing it by feel...

We'll try again later. I need some recovery time.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
...Total failure (according to Mrs. Duffy). Now I have to make my own lunch.

I'm going back to doing it by feel...

We'll try again later. I need some recovery time.


Did you wear a 'wetsuit'? It only works if you can 'feel' the glide. Push hard and snap the hips!
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 28, 12 12:22
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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We never use any type of rubber. Latex, maybe.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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YES!! Sex,swimming,sword fighting,boxing and probably a lot of other things can be done using one of the two different styles(of course you can mix them),"THRUSTING and SWINGING",lol."Thrusting" usually has a slower rythym and longer follow through but has more power in each stroke."Swinging" usually has a faster rythym,shorter follow through but less power in each stroke.Feel free to use either method(or a mix)in ANY activity,lol.The argument many made here is that"thrusting"in swimming is slow.ALL I am(and was) saying is,get in the water and PRACTICE,PRACTICE"thrusting" till you"get"it,THEN decide if it is(or can be)fast".
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Frequency and volume are the key. Sometimes two-a-days are beneficial. That's when the the neighbor girls come in handy.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Is it better to practice with a group or solo?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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It seems to me that TI excessively emphasises SPL as a goal rather than a means.

The way I understand it, that's exactly how it is. You wouldn't swim 10x50 as hard as you can with TI. Instead you would do something like 10x50 at a stroke rate of 60 and strokes per length of 15. Speed is a result of that combination of SPL and SR and it might be a difficult set for you so you're tired at the end. But the goal isn't to swim hard for the sake of swimming hard.

At least that's how I understand TI.

I also think they over-emphasize SPL.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Is it better to practice with a group or solo?

You'll make faster improvement with a group. However I find if there's more than 3 or 4 people there can be too much waiting for your send off.

That being said, I cannot stress enough the importance of a good quality solo session. I like to mix those up. Sometimes short duration but I go at it very hard. Other times it's long and slow. These solo session can be very rewarding. New breakthroughs often happen during solo work.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Is it better to practice with a group or solo?


You'll make faster improvement with a group. However I find if there's more than 3 or 4 people there can be too much waiting for your send off.

That being said, I cannot stress enough the importance of a good quality solo session. I like to mix those up. Sometimes short duration but I go at it very hard. Other times it's long and slow. These solo session can be very rewarding. New breakthroughs often happen during solo work.

Mission accomplished.

Just sayin'.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Is it better to practice with a group or solo?


You'll make faster improvement with a group. However I find if there's more than 3 or 4 people there can be too much waiting for your send off.

That being said, I cannot stress enough the importance of a good quality solo session. I like to mix those up. Sometimes short duration but I go at it very hard. Other times it's long and slow. These solo session can be very rewarding. New breakthroughs often happen during solo work.

Yea solo work has it's place no question. I'm still working up the courage to do the 'group thing'. I mean I have serious performance anxiety. How are you able to get past performing in groups?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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I think everyone should practice"thrusting"for 15 minutes to a half an hour everyday for a week or two.Then they can decide if they want to go back to"swinging",lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [guiroplaya] [ In reply to ]
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guiroplaya wrote:
nope , but you sound like Terry's boyfriend.. lol


With as shitty as I think that the whole TI program is - I would presume I sound like an ex-boyfriend.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, so I decided to try your turnspearglide/turnthrustglide...at first it felt really weird, I did not have the optimum thrusting power. Perfect timing is what I need, right? I figured I would put in a ton of work at it and achieve PERFECT TIMING so I could see if it would work and get to the bottom of this. Well I practiced practiced practiced, for like 15 minutes, and it clicked and I was able to perfect the timing. I was not as fast as swinging, but it was a whole lot easier. I think I only burned 3 calories in the 15 minutes... I was not as fast...so the question is, how near my "swinger" pace do I need before I would achieve fool status to not keep thrusting for all I am worth??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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Um - are you married or in a relationship?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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How are you able to get past performing in groups?

The hardest thing for me is doing "solo work" while a group is present in the, um, practice area.

Group performance is easier than you think, though. There is so much going on with bodies everywhere (some thrusting, some swinging, some gliding 90, etc.) you'll find the group really isn't focusing on you, specifically (until you're about to reach that all important tipping point). There can be some awkward moments if the timing is off, but if you find the right group everything will just flow. The more you practice with the same group the easier it gets.

Speaking of the "tipping point", some of the best sessions are when you hold yourself right below that "tipping point". Some call it threshold or "edging". This can be difficult in a group setting (for me) because I find myself getting swept up in the, um, competition and often "blow my wad" before the, um, workout is "done". So these threshold, or "edging" sessions are to practiced solo before you try it with a group.

By far the best sessions are done with just one other partner.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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WOW,THANKS for giving it a try!That is all I ask,lol.Not totally clear on your queston,but I think you are asking,"how long till I get fast enough at"thrusting"to make the hassle worthwhile?",lol.That is the million dollar question! I think it depends on how much you like"thrusting"verses"swinging".If you don't like"thrusting"forget about it and get back to"swinging".If like"thrusting" and practice it a lot you will get as fast or faster as swinging.Let us know what happens.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
WOW,THANKS for giving it a try!That is all I ask,lol.Not totally clear on your queston,but I think you are asking,"how long till I get fast enough at"thrusting"to make the hassle worthwhile?",lol.That is the million dollar question! I think it depends on how much you like"thrusting"verses"swinging".If you don't like"thrusting"forget about it and get back to"swinging".If like"thrusting" and practice it a lot you will get as fast or faster as swinging.Let us know what happens.

"Now THAT is a good question!The short answer is speed is NOT the only criteria for"better".Turnspearglide is easier(almost everyone says that even you),more relaxing,more fun,lower heart rate,uses less strokes,more efficient(in my opinion,many disagree).In my opinion about the ONLY way the"swinger" technique might be"better"is it is faster.Given that if I can do turnspearglide to anywhere NEAR as fast as the"swinger"style(and I WAS slow at that style too,lol) I would be an ABSOLUTE FOOL not to do turnspearglide!It is just so easy and relaxing that when you get to the bike you have more energy to catch up any time lost to the"swingers",lol.It is really very similiar to aerobars verses drops.Lance Armstrong could use drop bars and probably go JUST as FAST as most pros on aerobars.But he would be using far more energy,spinning at a higher RPM,not nearly as relaxed and have a higher heart rate.So even if he won the bike he would be tired and tense for the run.Of course that is why Lance and virtually everyone else uses aerobars."

I am looking for the time difference between the two styles that would put one in the "ABSOLUTE FOOL" status to not use "turnspearglide". How close do the times have to be? I swam turnspearglide and almost made it to the other end of the pool (I'm trying not to kick or pull to maximize efficiency to get the most of this awesome technique...the easier the better, right? I mean why not go all out?). With "catch and pull" I can regularly swim back and forth at a reasonable pace though. Is my timing maybe not perfect yet? I thought lets take it up a notch...breaststroke is even easier...but what could be easier than breaststroke?? Is there a TI breaststroke? That would leave me even more energy to catch the "swingers"...those poor SOB's...

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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R10C wrote:
Um - are you married or in a relationship?

Sir, that is too bold!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are swinger!Good luck!
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