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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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naturally have a 'feel for the water' and can intuitively pick up on how to move through it.

stover and i have termed that "kinesthetic sensitivity"

one's ability to understand their body's place in time and space


36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Further (and this isn't directed at you Bryancd) for people to sit on this board and suggest that he is bad coach because he isn't all that "great" of a swimmer himself is absurd. There are hundreds of posts by well respected posters that dispute the myth that one, must be or have been, a great athlete to be a great coach.//

I agree with you, Terry was the one bringing up his N=1 results to give his methods some credibility. I just threw out some times and results of folks to fly in the face of the ridiculous assumption that a coaches results somehow make them a better coach. Under his(Terry's) marketing methods, he would be at the bottom of the heap, not the top like he likes to promote. That is all I was saying.. ABout Paulo, that is a can of worms I will steer clear of..(-;

And to what I think is a competitive swimmer that needs further instruction beyond the basic learning how to swim, I would say once you can repeat around 2 minutes per 100SCY on your distance swims, you are there. I think that includes a lot of triathletes, probably most.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base?? \\

Well Gerry told you that the stroke rate is waaaay out of line, others of us have said that you cannot base a sound training plan on just easy swimming. Those are two really big things right there. Just like crank lenghts are getting shorter, the trend in swimming is to be taking more strokes, not less. Terry has been around a long time, and he has a lot invested in a technique that goes against the grain, and he is fighting to keep it relevant. Besides crank lenghts, in running there is a big push now for minimalist shoes, or even barefoot running. If you are going to survive in this industry, you have to adapt to the times and new technologies and studies. You have to listen to the pros who are on the front line doing things long before they become mainstream. That is the beauty of this site, you all get a peak in advance from some of the stuff that won't make it into any books for 5 to 10 years. Change can be good, and it is often inevitable. You see I have a long history and a somewhat intact memory, so I can recall many, many, changes that were fought and stubbornly held onto. I remember when the first clipless pedals, or aero bars came out and the cyclists poo pooed them as a triathlete fad that would die in a year or two. this sport is littered with that kind of stuff, and in just about every case I can remember, those that do not adapt, eventually die... Does Terry sound like an adaptive, open mined guy to you??
I just loved some of your points. However, I think the issue has more to where should the triathlete spend his limited amount of time, improving technique or hammering away trying to get faster with bad technique. In both instances the athlete will get faster. The question is which is the better approach and which athlete is more likely to get injured. Just because someone has a business doing something is not particularly strong evidence that what they are doing is bad. I happen to think that technique matters - big time - in all three disciplines. Gary Hall Sr. has posted some myth busting posts, not one of which has talked about effort but have rather been all about technique. Ignore technique at your competitive peril.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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And to what I think is a competitive swimmer that needs further instruction beyond the basic learning how to swim, I would say once you can repeat around 2 minutes per 100SCY on your distance swims, you are there. I think that includes a lot of triathletes, probably most.


Wow, that's more generous than I would have thought, but I would definitely defer to your judgment. Glorious day, I have made it to peformance swimmer status....actually I did about 7 years ago...but I feel legitimized now :)

Now about that running.....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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I have studied and researched open water swimming for decades and have coached American open water medalists at several world swimming championships. In addition to testing and analyzing some of the world's best pool and open water swimmers, I have tested both Gerry Rodrigues and Terry Laughlin using the same methodology (www.swimetrics.com) on various technical aspects of open water swimming, from drafting to dolphining, from swimming at a slower pace to race pace.

When I objectively analyzed the different techniques of swimmers, ranging from world champions like Gerry and Olympic gold medalists, to adult swimmers like Terry and beginner triathletes, certain conclusions can by drawn.

The easiest conclusion drawn in these tests and analyses is that technique improvement can help us all dramatically increase our speed and efficiency. This is why I test swimmers like Gerry and Terry at different speeds and in different positions (i.e., swimming solo, drafting behind a person's feet, drafting at the hips of two swimmers, pulling, swimming with a 6-beat kick, etc.). Learning the precise points in their strokes where they generate propulsion and create drag is fascinating and enlightening.

But the most optimal techniques in the open water can vary depending on the conditions of the swim: cold vs. warm, calm vs. rough, swimming with no marine life vs. swimming in jellyfish blooms, swimming with lateral currents vs. against oncoming currents, competing in a short pier-to-pier swim vs. doing a channel swim. It also depends on one's goals: just to finish or to compete and win.

As was suggested above, the kick, position of the head while breathing and arm tempo should all slightly vary depending on the conditions of the race/event. In my opinion, it is a knowledgeable and experienced open water coach who informs and teaches these different techniques, tactics and training methodologies. There are multiple techniques and tactics that can and should be replicated in the pool in order to be best prepared for triathlons or open water swims - no matter what your level of experience or ability is.

It is precisely these subtle and incredibly important techniques, tactics and training methodologies that Gerry and the greatest collection of open water swimmers and coaches will share at the upcoming Global Open Water Swimming Conference in Long Beach, California on June 5th. As part of this Conference where many of the world's greatest and most accomplished swimmers will make presentations, Gerry, 7-time world professional marathon swimming champion Shelley Taylor-Smith and several Olympic coaches will analyze the swimming technique and race tactics of the 2010 USA Swimming National Open Water Swimming Championship athletes who will race 10K in Long Beach on June 4th. Close-up videos of these athletes will be very enlightening, especially as they shift gears and change techniques and tactics throughout the 2-hour race.

While we may not be as fast or experienced as these elite swimmers who are flying in from 14 countries, we can all learn something from them.

http://www.wowsa.org
http://www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Can't the FBI and ATF just raid the TI compound and end all this nonsense?

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The Triathlon Squad

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Let me be clear, I am not an expert, but I don't believe the term "fitness" is sport specific. VO2 is V02, what you can do with that number in a given sport is about economy. I am only evaluating the comments posted, I don't know anything about Terry.

Regardless of what YOU think, fitness IS sport specific [Vo2 is sport specific.]

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [trexleradam] [ In reply to ]
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The thing that really bugs me about TI is that it's easier to have better, not worse, technique when you're swimming near-all out. Last time I did a swim focus, my best technique started to come when I incorporated sets of 25s at very high intensity, thinking about technique, though. Good technique and lolly-gagging is a contradiction in terms.

I agree with this, but if we tell most triathletes this they will start flailing their arms like a windmill while they try to swim fast.

Once you're a good swimmer, then it's easy to swim fast, with good technique.

Chicken and egg conundrum do you think?

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?

I still believe "fitness" (as defined by V02) is an absolute measure.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but:

SWIMMING AND RUNNING ARE TWO DIFFERENT SPORTS. What works for one (running) may not (and doesn't, actually) work for the other. Running is a lot of pounding; it has a long recovery; it has eccentric muscle contractions while swimming has concentric ones but no eccentric; thus you cannot train the same way.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Chicken and egg conundrum do you think?

It is, but that is why you have to do both, work on technique and train hard. Technique IS fitness. Its the myth that you can get good technique without hammering yourself that is what holds back many triathletes.

I started swimming at 12 which is late by swimming standards but it means I was old enough to be very aware of what was going on during those first few years when I was developing my swimming techinique and i had just enough knowledge to have some understanding of what was going on. That plus some serious study, my own experience as a coach and having watched the swimming "careers" of 100s of kids from start to finish, I have a pretty good feel for how one gets faster at swimming.

It is true that swimmers get faster because their techique gets better but technique only gets better through a circular system of getting stronger, gaining better techinque as a result which resulted in being able to train harder with that better technique, then that technique improved as a result of the increase in training level and so on. Swimmers get fast by training hard AND working on techinique. Just working on techique alone without some hard work will not produce much in the way of results.

It is a chicken and egg thing. The problem is many triathletes only want eggs but hate chickens.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I just loved some of your points. However, I think the issue has more to where should the triathlete spend his limited amount of time, improving technique or hammering away trying to get faster with bad technique.\\

Time management is a whole other topic Frank, let's not muddy this narrow topic here with tangents that could go on forever.. And where did I say that technique was not important? It is not either or, but I think we are debating on which technique is more optimal for getting faster. I agree that it is best to figure out your best stroke technique so as not to waste too much of your time. There is no rule that you cannot work hard too in the meantime, while you are perfecting that stroke. Hell, I'm even making changes this late in my career, would have been a lonely one for me down in lane 5, swimming 1;40 hundreds all day if I had to wait until I had the perfect stroke before I could swim hard and fast...(-;
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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here is an extrach from a note I wrote within a discussion several months ago.....it may help clarify some things.

"To my knowledge, no good swimmers that I'm aware of race at low stroke rates of 55/min, and none train at 110 HR other than warm-up. I have coached for 27 years and raced open water quite successfully for 38 years with over 400 races under my belt as an athlete. Although there may be many alternative ways to prepare, none of my successes or anyone I know came from training that way.

The pro 10k race in Brazil last December saw an elite field of ten athletes managing the pace with a stroke rate range of between 76-82. When the break was made at the 7k mark, eventual winner, Trent Grimsley, went to a stroke rate of nearing 100/minute with a strong 6BK. The chase pack then ignited their rates to 84-92 with an increase to a 6BK. They were unable to catch him. They all largely held those rates for the final 3k.

I think much of this stroke rate confusion comes from the elegance and easy swimming taught by TI and others about total front quadrant swimming and massive rotation; this slows stroke rate, especially at the slower swimmer level, and those with weak or non-existant kicks. Also, to the swimmer without an extensive competitive background, which is the majority, they tend to misunderstand or be misled visually when watching great swimmers race. They see long, elegant, and sleek strokes above the water, being deceived by the rate of turnover (hand velocity) beneath the water, and the power/watts generated. That underwater stroke rate is what mystifies that observer as the arm velocity is significant relative to an average lap swimmer or aspiring triathlete, which is much of the TI audience to my understanding.

Stroke rates are critical to very fast swimming in open water – no matter what the age or level of competition. Train to get to those rates if you want to be competitive.

If Terry and others are not interested in fast swimming or in being the best they can be competitively, then rates in the 40s-60s are fine, comfortable, and enjoyable, but those rates in open water won't cut it to be competitive, or in producing ones optimal results. Those rates are good for leisure open water camps etc.One needs different gears: 55 rates, then 65 and 75 and 85 RPM etc. if they wish to be competitively successful in open water.

I'd also be pretty hard-pressed to believe any of the athletes that raced the Brazil 10k had heart rates of 110 at any point during their race. There is no substitute for hard work and deliberate, effective specific training. These modern 10k events call for just that, while it is equally true for all the 1- and 2-mile races and triathlon swim legs around the world. These athletes have to be able to accelerate and slow down, position themselves, and create boxed-in positions on others, thus requiring various stroke rate capabilities and heart rate changes. This is the Tour de France in the aquatic world. They need to practice all of this, and they do.....at least the ones who win consistently. Other than guys like Fran Crippen and Andrew Gemmell, medalists in the 2009 World Swimming Championships, who got up in the high 80s SPM with a corresponding fast-beat kick, many Americans still have a way to go.

Even for the audience that TI teaches: quite a bit of triathletes; their stroke rates are still too low from this coaches perspective. TI and Terry were, and are, tremendous assets to our sport, making contribution that are immeasurable. Many are grateful to them, especially me for what I have learned.

I recall when Terry sat in my office when I was co-publisher of Swimming World, SWIM, and Swimming Technique magazines, discussing his TI concept, I stated to him then as I do here: TI has its place in the sport…TI is a great business model, I applaud Terry on his very successful business acumen: teach the ABC, 1,2,3 of swimming. Their place in the sport is important and has been significant, it's just not "the" sport – especially at the most competitive ends of the spectrum, and even more specifically in dynamic open water racing.

Furthermore, trying to utilize pool athletes such as Popov's stroke count, rather than stroke rate, in a 50 free or the others such as Hackett, Thorpe, Phelps, Mellouli does not help the point. Taking a watch to their strokes over 15 sec., their stroke rates will usually run upward of 76-82 a minute and approaching almost 108/min for Popov in the 50 (Popov swam his world records 50 in 21.6 in 31 strokes, but over 100 stroke rate) and 96/min for Lezak in his recent Olympic relay swim. Please do not confuse the number of strokes in a length with stroke rate.

For open water, variable stroke rates in training is very important, as are variable heart rates, and intensity."

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm....if you are feeling motivated I would like more clarity on that point. In absolute terms, are you suggesting that it is possible for Lance Armstrong to have a V02max of 85 for cycling, but only 35 for running??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm....if you are feeling motivated I would like more clarity on that point. In absolute terms, are you suggesting that it is possible for Lance Armstrong to have a V02max of 85 for cycling, but only 35 for running??

It is possible (though his Vo2 max for running, in real life, is higher than 35 - we could guestimate it based on his marathon times). Exercise physiology books will support this fact.

Vo2 max tests are commonly done as a treadmill test. If you (or I, or anyone else) did one on a bike, and one on a treadmill, you would have different results.

FITNESS IS SPORT SPECIFIC.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm....if you are feeling motivated I would like more clarity on that point. In absolute terms, are you suggesting that it is possible for Lance Armstrong to have a V02max of 85 for cycling, but only 35 for running??


It is possible (though his Vo2 max for running, in real life, is higher than 35 - we could guestimate it based on his marathon times). Exercise physiology books will support this fact.

Vo2 max tests are commonly done as a treadmill test. If you (or I, or anyone else) did one on a bike, and one on a treadmill, you would have different results.

FITNESS IS SPORT SPECIFIC.


That's true, I have done both treadmill and bike VO2 tests and they have different results. But I think VO2 isn't a very good metric for "fitness" it's more a "fitness potential" marker. I think LT tests would be a better gauge although I couldn't see how you could do that in a pool without bleeding into the water. :)

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Last edited by: Bryancd: May 19, 10 11:02
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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is there a lot of blood with those? I thought it was just a quick finger prick.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but you are talking about micro changes, not macro changes. I don't believe it is possible for someone to have that significant of a change in V02 from one activity to another.

That being said, I believe I erroneously confused genetic ability with fitness, so I understand your point and appreciate the clarity.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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is there a lot of blood with those? I thought it was just a quick finger prick.


...but there are a lot of finger pricks. :)

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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After reading all this TI bashing I guess that take away is that titanium bikes are slower.

Wait.....I think I'm confused.


--Chris
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but you are talking about micro changes, not macro changes. I don't believe it is possible for someone to have that significant of a change in V02 from one activity to another.

You can "believe" whatever you want. Literature will contradict you. A trained cyclist will have a higher vo2 reading on a cycling tests and a lower reading on a running test; a runner will have a lower reading on a cycling test and a higher one on a treadmill test. What will those differences be? I don't know.

maybe BrianCD will post numbers for you (but those would be HIS, and he is trained in cycling and running methinks)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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do you mind sharing your numbers from bike v run vo2? curious tiger-cat

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Popov swam his world records 50 in 21.6 in 31 strokes, but over 100 stroke rate

21.6sec @ 31strokes = 86strokes/minute ????

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I just loved some of your points. However, I think the issue has more to where should the triathlete spend his limited amount of time, improving technique or hammering away trying to get faster with bad technique.\\

Time management is a whole other topic Frank, let's not muddy this narrow topic here with tangents that could go on forever.. And where did I say that technique was not important? It is not either or, but I think we are debating on which technique is more optimal for getting faster. I agree that it is best to figure out your best stroke technique so as not to waste too much of your time. There is no rule that you cannot work hard too in the meantime, while you are perfecting that stroke. Hell, I'm even making changes this late in my career, would have been a lonely one for me down in lane 5, swimming 1;40 hundreds all day if I had to wait until I had the perfect stroke before I could swim hard and fast...(-;
But, I think time management is the crux of Terry's argument, especially for triathletes where is is saying swimming can be used for recovery, so the effort can be put on the more important aspects of the sport, cycling and running. It is all about time management. Where is the biggest bang for the buck? He is not necessarily advocating this approach for those trying to get to the Olympics in swimming. He is advocating it for the vast majority of athletes who have jobs, families, and limited training time.

I hate to drag PowerCranks into the argument but we see this all the time. People (especially elites) are afraid to take the time to learn the technique because they see their mileage dropping and are afraid they will lose fitness. They feel they have to hammer essentially all the time to get better and it is not reasonable to take time to perfect the technique before getting back to hammering. It is like learning to play the piano, you should start with the basics before you advance to the hard stuff if you really want to get good. Yes, people can improve using bad technique but that is not evidence that approach is optimal over other approaches. It is reasonable to debate these issues.

The only way to know which way is truly better is for someone to do a study? Even that may not answer the question depending upon how it is conducted. I won't hold my breath this will ever happen so I suspect this debate will continue.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Corn] [ In reply to ]
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be careful taking things from sprint swimming, and making them tri (ie, distance)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
Last edited by: tigerchik: May 19, 10 11:28
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Corn] [ In reply to ]
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Popov swam his world records 50 in 21.6 in 31 strokes, but over 100 stroke rate

21.6sec @ 31strokes = 86strokes/minute ????


21.6s includes start and underwater portion so 31 strokes is over a shorter time hence the rate over 100
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