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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tskeltonpga] [ In reply to ]
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There's also a question of the strength needed to turn over those levers called arms. All things considered, a woman's commonly going to have a slightly shorter stroke/higher turnover than a man will because they don't have the same level of arm & shoulder strength to 'max out' the propulsion generation on each arm stroke.

Swimming is not rocket science; it's the interesting intersection between physics and biology. I can remember a discussion years ago with a coach about how butterfly is the fastest stroke from a physics standpoint (and why dolphin kick off the wall eventually became such an important part of pool swimming) but because of how the human body is built, you're just always going to fatigue quickly in fly compared to free, so you can never really use that maximum fly speed for more than about a 25.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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This has been a great learning experience!! I am having fun too! I think we are getting to the nub of the issue,its GREAT.I also watched a video of Phelps.He was using EVF too,it seems most of the top swimmers are using that,so that is NOT why Yang is faster then anyone else.In the video of Phelps his head is way higher then Yang,he does not turn his shoulders near as much and he does more strokes per length(slightly).And really most videos of the good swimmers on youtube show them"spearing",I was calling it pushing,but we can call it spearing.Many posters ask"isn't it way faster to swing your arm through the air then push underwater,because water is so much thicker then air?".Yes it IS way easier to swing through the air,BUT swinging through the air DOES NOT make you faster THROUGH THE WATER(in other words spearing underwater moves you forward and swinging through the air doesn't). So to sum up seems all the good swimmers spear and use EVF.So the difference from Yang to the others is Yang keeps his head lower,turns his shoulders more creating a longer spearing effect so he does less strokes but goes through the water faster(the basic premise of TI,IMO)Terry Laughlin says"Yang is textbook TI".Many on here say"isn't the fact that Yang is so tall is why he is fast,not technique?The longer the object the faster it goes through the water(law of physics).Tall people have a huge advantage in swimming,just like basketball.Smaller people tend to have an advantage in running,so everyone has a strength and weakness in triathlon,that is what makes it interesting.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Let me dispell the myth as to whether or not Sun Yang has any glide in his stroke. http://www.feelforthewater.com/...-two-best-1500m.html
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Hotman637 you also seem to confuse distance per stroke and stroke rate. counting strokes per length of a pool is totally different than how many strokes you take per minute. So many variables in counting ones stokes per length ( ie size of body, size of hand and feet, how strong is ones kick,etc...)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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It seems you have a great eye for swimming......................Could you please look at Janet Evans in her hey day and dissect her stroke for me? Thanks.....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cubfan24] [ In reply to ]
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WOW cubfan24!! That link you supplied really made things clear for me! Everybody on here should check it out,it is GREAT! They state EXACTLY what I was trying,(but failing,ha ha) to say.A LOT of the problem was terminology.On the link they say they there are basically TWO styles to swimming(just what I said). One they call the swinger style(I was calling it catch and pull).Your head is high in the water,your arms are out of the water more,you do short strokes so you do a lot more,but put less energy into each one(that is their theory).Vast majority of triathletes use this technique.That is EXACTLY what I observered and was TRYING(ha ha) to say.To me it is like using drop bars and lowering your gears on your bike and spinning.And the OTHER swim technique is the infamous Total Immersion. Head is down,shoulder turn,spearing underwater,longer strokes so you do less etc.,etc.To me it is basically like putting aerobars on your bike and step up a gear or two and pedal slower.The big thing on this forum was most everone was saying TI was slow,swinger is fast.The problems we were having were communication and demonstration.Very few triathletes were doing TI correctly so it was not demonstrated well.Yang is NOT doing"swinger"technique,anyone I think would agree to that,but he may not do exact TI either.That is a also big issue we are having,you can MIX THE STYLES! Just like on a bike,you can get on the hoods and spin or down on the aerobars and"glide". I think what TI means by "glide" is you are spending MORE TIME being"aero" and less time"swinging",something that Yang obviously does.So back to my original point,in my opinion everybody should learn swing technique AND TI and THEN make up there mind what they want to do.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have any background in physics?
Fluid dynamics?
Biomechanics?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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next time you're at the pool, try a drill of just rolling your shoulders and spearing. Don't pull or kick at all, just turn and push/spear. Please report back to us your pace per 100 doing that drill. Even better, post a video.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenny,interesting video of Janet,she is doing an AMAZING version of what I am now calling the SWINGER technique(see above post).As I say people can be fast with the swinger technique AND TI,try them both and see which you prefer(or mix them for that matter).I was not that good at math or physics in high school,but as I say swimming is not rocket science.There are complicators and simplifiers.I am a simplifier,lol.Swimming comes down to swinger style or TI. Of course you can mix them but that makes it more complicated,ha ha.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Jason,WHY?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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you say that the propulsion comes from the push forward, not the pull. see how much propulsion you actually get from the spearing action.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637, you seem to have a unique ability to twist facts to make a point. The time sequence clearly shows the lack of any glide. the sheer length of his stroke gives the illusion of a glide but there is no glide. The only known stroke emphisis taught in the world that accentuates gliding is by Terry Laughlin and his followers. When Terry Laughlin coaches a world class swimmer to a medal at any level I'll rethink my position. TI enthusiests cling to Yang as their shining example to validate their technique. However, he is far from classic TI. He reaches high over the water with his recovery stroke vs the marrionette dangling arm recovery of TI, nowhere a 90 degree rotation,generally always uses a 6 beat kick etc...I will give you this though, If ever there were a person who could make TI look fast, it would be Yang. If he was taught some TI techniques with his freakish body (6'6" and maybe the longest wingspan in world class swimming) it might look fast.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
WOW cubfan24!! That link you supplied really made things clear for me! Everybody on here should check it out,it is GREAT! They state EXACTLY what I was trying,(but failing,ha ha) to say.A LOT of the problem was terminology.On the link they say they there are basically TWO styles to swimming(just what I said). One they call the swinger style(I was calling it catch and pull).Your head is high in the water,your arms are out of the water more,you do short strokes so you do a lot more,but put less energy into each one(that is their theory).Vast majority of triathletes use this technique.That is EXACTLY what I observered and was TRYING(ha ha) to say.To me it is like using drop bars and lowering your gears on your bike and spinning.And the OTHER swim technique is the infamous Total Immersion. Head is down,shoulder turn,spearing underwater,longer strokes so you do less etc.,etc.To me it is basically like putting aerobars on your bike and step up a gear or two and pedal slower.The big thing on this forum was most everone was saying TI was slow,swinger is fast.The problems we were having were communication and demonstration.Very few triathletes were doing TI correctly so it was not demonstrated well.Yang is NOT doing"swinger"technique,anyone I think would agree to that,but he may not do exact TI either.That is a also big issue we are having,you can MIX THE STYLES! Just like on a bike,you can get on the hoods and spin or down on the aerobars and"glide". I think what TI means by "glide" is you are spending MORE TIME being"aero" and less time"swinging",something that Yang obviously does.So back to my original point,in my opinion everybody should learn swing technique AND TI and THEN make up there mind what they want to do.


"...you can MIX THE STYLES!"
You have been repeatedly telling us that you can't mix the styles because your "catch and pull" "and "turn, push, and glide" directly contradict each other. But now that you admit that Yang is not textbook TI (he is not TI in genearal or specifically for any matter), you now tellus he is mixing the styles because "you can MIX THE STYLES!" I do not understand tgis direct contradiction in your statements. Please clarify. Lol...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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First you said this :...from both methods and that is fine.The difficulty I have with this approach is that the MAJOR techniques of the two styles DIRECTLY CONTRADICT EACH OTHER...then you said this :That is a also big issue we are having,you can MIX THE STYLES
So what is it?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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To:...Janet,she is doing an AMAZING version of what I am now calling the SWINGER technique
/......Please tell us your Paulo busting our balls........Dude you are either entertaining or truly clueless
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
To:...Janet,she is doing an AMAZING version of what I am now calling the SWINGER technique
/......Please tell us your Paulo busting our balls........Dude you are either entertaining or truly clueless


I had considered two potential aspects of Ruse of the Year here. One which you identified in paulo. The other being a person who realizes the douchery of their posts and is probably not a fan of TI, just attempting to confirm the blind cult mentality that tends to follow Terry's 'stuff'.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 25, 12 11:15
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman....what if I told you right now that Yang's coaches are working on his fitness so that he is able to maintain a HIGHER stroke rate?

Although Yang is NOT TI, but you seem to believe he is...trust me, in the coming years, he will not even remotely resemble it....because he wants to go even faster.


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Good question!Others have have asked the same thing.They DO directly contradict each other AND you can mix them.Yang is an example of a guy who does over 90%TI(IMO,many on on here disagree).Janet Evans is an example of someone who does 100%"swinger"technique.(I did NOT come up with the"swinger" name,Cubfan24 put a link on here that gave me that label in his post above.Check out that link for an explanation.I have know idea who Paulo is).As I say you COULD mix the styles.Janet could lower her head,turn her shoulders more and lengthen her stroke.At the same time she COULD"swing"her arms really fast,kick really fast and pull really hard.BUT doing that does not make much sense as you say,because they work against each other.Phelps looks to me he is mixing the styles to some extent.He does a long spear but does not turn his shoulders much. I think it is best to try both styles and decide which you like better and then stick 90%or more with the style.IMO,that is what 90% of the triathletes do,they swim 90%"swinger"style.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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The problem with videos is how you interpret them.I say Yang gets his power from the spearing,many others says he gets it from the pull.The ONLY way to really demonstrate how to correcty,"turn,spear and glide" is get in the water and feel it for yourself.You said you tried it(great!),now speed it up!I can swim spearing without kicking but I have to have to pull the same reason a boxer has to pull his arm back to set up the other punch.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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It has certainly crossed my mind that he's a Poe. I dunno, I think he's just backed himslef into a corner and is still trying to prove that he's right.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
The problem with videos is how you interpret them.I say Yang gets his power from the spearing,many others says he gets it from the pull.The ONLY way to really demonstrate how to correcty,"turn,spear and glide" is get in the water and feel it for yourself.You said you tried it(great!),now speed it up!I can swim spearing without kicking but I have to have to pull the same reason a boxer has to pull his arm back to set up the other punch.


i believe a punch without drawing ones arm back is what we would call a jab. do you watch boxing at all? jabs make up 90% of the punches.

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Last edited by: tskeltonpga: May 25, 12 13:38
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
It has certainly crossed my mind that he's a Poe. I dunno, I think he's just backed himslef into a corner and is still trying to prove that he's right.

I think I found him:


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I can swim spearing without kicking but I have to have to pull the same reason a boxer has to pull his arm back to set up the other punch.

Yeah, so post a youtube of yourself punching your way through the water without a normal pull. instead of pointing your hand to the bottom of the pool on the pull, keep your forearm pointed straight ahead to minimize the pull as much as possible, and just roll and push your way to speed.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 25, 12 14:17
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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oh dear. That's disturbing.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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Jason-Tigerpaws-I don't have to post a video!! That picture is EXACTLY like what I am describing!! That is EXACTLY how to do the stroke.TURN your shoulders like that guy is doing,PUSH(or SPEAR)your arm straight into the water,glide for a SPLIT SECOND,like his left arm is doing,then I pull straight down(or you can do EVF if you want)then TURN(or rotate or roll)your shoulders the other way, repeat as neccessary.Not rocket science.The hard part is to go fast.The basic trick is to do all those things in PERFECT TIMING so the whole thing is one superfast motion.TURNSPEARGLIDE,TURNSPEARGLIDE.You can kick anyway you want,pull anyway you want,breath anyway you want.Get in the water and practice,TURNSPEARGLIDE.
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