Surely that's comparing apples to oranges? Why use 2/cycle breathing for the 80 rate swimmer, but 3-4/cycle breathing for the 55 rate swimmer? If you use the same breath rate for both, the 55 rate swimmer would get 27-28 breaths/minute which is still a pretty big gap, but then the 55 rate swimmer probably isn't working as hard, so doesn't have the same oxygen needs (all other things being equal) as the 80 rate swimmer. Did I miss something?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues]
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [eganski]
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I hope Joe's not reading this, but as I understand it he was pretty "mediocre" when Terry got there - 49.0/100 free, 53.0/100 fly, but went at least as fast as 45.45 & 49.13 on a steady diet of technique before all else. I'm pretty sure he split a 43.+ 100 free in a relay, so he went a long way. He coaches much the same way now, too. He just had a kid win the 200 & 500 free at States & the team finished 2nd.
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty]
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We may be talking about different "kinds" of triathletes. I don't know what % are "hard core" vs. "have fun", but I suspect the latter group is way in the majority.
I'm sure studies & statistics have their place, but... have you ever tried it?
Maybe another way to ask is - do you do things the same way all the time because that's what you're used to/always do or are you willing to think & experiment "outside the box"?
I'm sure studies & statistics have their place, but... have you ever tried it?
Maybe another way to ask is - do you do things the same way all the time because that's what you're used to/always do or are you willing to think & experiment "outside the box"?
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy]
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I know a few TI swimmers...they are like the Jahovahs Witness' of swimming professing how great TI is. Truth be told two of them have beautiful strokes and look like poetry in the water....slow slow slow ass poetry in the water. Something like 50+ strokes per 25 at a VERY slow pace.
No thanks. I prefer to splash a bit for my 100's on 1:05 as opposed to 100's on 2:40+
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
No thanks. I prefer to splash a bit for my 100's on 1:05 as opposed to 100's on 2:40+
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy]
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Sorry, I posted before finishing...
Don't (at least some) 80 rate swimmers breathe every 3 or even 4?
Your generalization about "slow, easy swimming" (a euphemism for TI?) students being taught to breathe every 3 or 4 strokes is based on what? I've taught hundreds of triathletes, including those from swimming backgrounds, to breathe every 2 or 3 strokes, never 4 or more (more later on why "hypoxic" sets are dubious at best).
Wouldn't you agree that open water swimmers should be able to breathe to both sides, which, although bilateral, is different than breathing every 3 strokes?
Don't (at least some) 80 rate swimmers breathe every 3 or even 4?
Your generalization about "slow, easy swimming" (a euphemism for TI?) students being taught to breathe every 3 or 4 strokes is based on what? I've taught hundreds of triathletes, including those from swimming backgrounds, to breathe every 2 or 3 strokes, never 4 or more (more later on why "hypoxic" sets are dubious at best).
Wouldn't you agree that open water swimmers should be able to breathe to both sides, which, although bilateral, is different than breathing every 3 strokes?
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C]
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Why do they swim the way they do?
Why do you swim the way you do?
Why do you swim the way you do?
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP]
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I was one of the ones "attacking" TL for his pseudo science in that thread. My problem was with some of the statements that he made regarding the physiology, not necessarily the TI system. I have stated before, and state again that TI does have a place. It does teach a basic stroke that allows people to at least finish the swim leg. IMHO, it does not teach a fast stroke.
If you don't know how to swim (or can't swim very well) and have no access to coaches/instructors (And they are not necessarily the same thing), then TI is probably perfect for you. Once you are finished with that, then you can learn to swim fast.
John
Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Devlin]
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Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP]
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Could someone please tell me why my TI post was deleted from this thread.It was my 1st post on this forum and did not seem out of line IMO.
I sent an email but was returned undelivered.I would like to know what I can and cannot post so don't waste time. Thank You,Jay
I sent an email but was returned undelivered.I would like to know what I can and cannot post so don't waste time. Thank You,Jay
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jpflores]
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jpflores wrote:
You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water. I would go out on a limb and say EVERYONE'S best race will happen when they pace their swim well. But that doesn't mean keeping the RPE/HR low during training is an effective way of becoming a faster swimmer.
Maybe for HIM and IM races but my best OD races have always come when I was in really good swimming shape and swam the 1500m hard, then just kept up my best possible pace through the bike and run.
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jess_d]
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jess_d wrote:
Terry has years of experience in which he developed very strong muscles and technique that allows him to just maintain his current speed (and slightly improve it over time). You can't tell the avg age grouper that they should swim easy = the avg age grouper needs to spend the same time Terry did in developing the proper muscles and technique. It takes years of hard training to be able to develop the muscles necessary to swim fast without a lot of effort.Well, really he's not all that super fast. The 46:20 for 2 mile cable swim is not the current M55-59 USMS record but rather 42:19 is, per the USMS web site. Also, the 1500m LCM record for M55-59 is 17:22.6, which if this guy were to do the 2-mi cable race, would probably translate to around 39:00 for 2 miles OW, assuming good conditions, maybe even 38:00 if he had some guys to draft off. (The two records were set by different guys.)
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir]
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lightheir wrote:
There's a fascinating debate with Terry Laughlin himself from Total Immersion on BeginnerTriathlete, where he's justifying his "go-easy" training methods for all athletes, not just beginners. A few strong swimmers are actively participating, which is making for a very interesting discussion. Was wondering what the opinion of the fishies on ST was about the points brought up. Thread here: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/...tart=81&posts=97
Some of the controversial quotes from Terry himself on the thread:
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"Unlike in running and cycling, there has never been any correlation established between ANY fitness measure and swimming performance. Energy system training works for some swimmers. Fails for far more.
The only absolute correlation that exists in swimming is SL x SR = V. And that equation is far more influenced by neural conditioning than aerobic."
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"I know this is anecdotal, but I never swim "extremely hard," let alone on a regular basis, yet swam the USMS 2-mile Cable Swim in 46:20 at age 56, breaking my own USMS 55-59 record.
This summer my goal is to break my USMS 55-59 1-Mile Cable Swim record during my final year in the age group. At no time will I swim extremely hard in training. And if I reach max effort during the event, it will only be for the final 100-200m."
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You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water.
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Of the 3 disciplines in triathlon, swimming is the only one ideally suited to restoration. If you train strategically, a good, relaxed, technique-oriented swim practice can aid in your recovery for the land-based training that is more naturally stressful. If you try to HTFU in the pool, you will almost certainly compromise your run and bike training.
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Watch the greatest 1500m swimmer ever (Grant Hacket) and count his stroke rate. Not much over 60 (if I'm counting correctly). Watching Hacket - long glide, perfect form, smooth strokes - reminds me very much of T1 style swimming. Of course Hacket was a tremendous athlete with a huge motor; however, from my view - holding true to many basic T1 concepts.
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DC Pattie]
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DC Pattie wrote:
Watch the greatest 1500m swimmer ever (Grant Hacket) and count his stroke rate. Not much over 60 (if I'm counting correctly). Watching Hacket - long glide, perfect form, smooth strokes - reminds me very much of T1 style swimming. Of course Hacket was a tremendous athlete with a huge motor; however, from my view - holding true to many basic T1 concepts.
I guess I just don't see much of a comparison. Grant uses a very shallow and radical EVF catch while Terry enters the water closer to his head and drives straight to his pull through position almost alleviating said catch motion with a very deep arm position during the pull through. Terry has a lazy if almost non-existent 2 beat kick while Grant looks like a thunder thighs convention shot with a tazer. Lastly, the pace these two guys swim at is about as similar as my 10K to one of the Brownlees.
But yea other than that I can see how one might confuse Grant Hackett as a TI swimmer.....
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637]
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Not only was it your first post, but it also appears that it was your only other post on this forum - in nearly two years. Has this really been gnawing at you for all this time? So much so that you raised this thread from the dead? It's been so long that whoever pulled probably doesn't even remember.
I sent an email but was returned undelivered.I would like to know what I can and cannot post so don't waste time. Thank You,Jay
Mike Sparks
I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
hotman637 wrote:
Could someone please tell me why my TI post was deleted from this thread.It was my 1st post on this forum and did not seem out of line IMO. I sent an email but was returned undelivered.I would like to know what I can and cannot post so don't waste time. Thank You,Jay
Mike Sparks
I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Sparks]
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Thanks for posting a reply Mike! The reason I posted on a two year old thread is I have not looked at tri forums untill recently(I joined the same time I posted).I spent the last few years observing and practicing TI and other methods trying to figure out what TI was and how it worked.The deleted post was my conclusions.They may very well be completely incorrect,lol,but I can't know that untill I get some feedback.That is why I made the post.I can rewrite the post if someone will tell me why it was deleted so I can make the necessary changes or they can repost it.Anyhow thanks for your time. Jay
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637]
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So you dedicated 2 years of your life to swim training TI style? I, for one, would be interested to hear how that worked out. Unless your post looked like promotional spam, I can't think why it would be deleted. ST is a fairly open forum. You didn't mention PowerCranks at any point did you?
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [bazilbrush]
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Brazilbrush,thanks for commenting on my post!That was exactly what my original post,explaining TI and how it worked for me! I STILL have no idea why it was deleted.Anyhow I will just give a quick summation and see if that is acceptable,lol.
The big complaint of TI on here is that it is too slow so most people(that I have observed) use what I call the"catch and pull" method.TI uses what I call the"turn, push and glide"method.It is simple to go fast with the"catch and pull"method,just move your arms faster.It is more difficult to go faster using the"turn,push and glide"method because the rhythm of your entire body is used not just your arms.But with practice TI can be fast,and it is(to me)smoother,easier and more relaxed.
The big complaint of TI on here is that it is too slow so most people(that I have observed) use what I call the"catch and pull" method.TI uses what I call the"turn, push and glide"method.It is simple to go fast with the"catch and pull"method,just move your arms faster.It is more difficult to go faster using the"turn,push and glide"method because the rhythm of your entire body is used not just your arms.But with practice TI can be fast,and it is(to me)smoother,easier and more relaxed.
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir]
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I know I have asked this question in the past after reading some things posted by "Terry Laughlin," but are we really sure it is the real Terry Laughlin doing the posting?
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"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM
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"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JM]
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It's always worthwhile to incorporate some easy training sessions into your plan both to recover and to remind yourself why you participate in this wonderful sport
Head Coach Grn Mchn Multisports Coaching, LLC
http://www.grnmchnmultisports.com
Head Coach Grn Mchn Multisports Coaching, LLC
http://www.grnmchnmultisports.com
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DanSzajta]
[ In reply to ]
DanSzajta wrote:
It's always worthwhile to incorporate some easy training sessions into your plan both to recover and to remind yourself why you participate in this wonderful sportI genuinely think this is the wisdom I've been looking for. Thanks.
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637]
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hotman637 wrote:
.But with practice TI can be fast,and it is(to me)smoother,easier and more relaxed.Could be for you but in general terms not. By entering the hand close to the head and extending it under water, TI introduces in front crawl the glide phase you find in breakstroke. And for sure it is much more tiring to push yourself against the water than above the water. That is the reason why none of the fastest front crawlers use the TI style in competition (and certainly not Grant Hackett).
In front crawl, fast swimmers's focus is to swim high on the water (and not glide under the water which as a matter of fact is specific to breakstroke).
This glide phase in TI style is interesting for beginners and average swimmers because it increases your distance per stroke but if you want to reach a higher level of speed you need a hand entry far from the head as top swimmers do in front crawl.
TI style is still interesting and nice to practice mostly as a drill.
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637]
[ In reply to ]
Could someone tell us how on earth you got to digging up this old thread? Albeit, TI bashing is fun and all....but still.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C]
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He probably used the search function - which is probably what everyone would have suggested had he started a new thread...
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [charris]
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charris wrote:
He probably used the search function - which is probably what everyone would have suggested had he started a new thread...Hey, we cant give anyone a break around here ;-)
I wonder what ever happened to Terry. Those days were almost as fun as the good old TNO swinger fest / divorce / spousal cheating threads (that bled over to here). If I recall properly we got a few new posters from that fiasco (when they were summarily banned for life from TNO).
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C]
[ In reply to ]
Terry is like Beetlejuice- say his name enough, one of his cronies will let him know he's getting talked about, and he generally eventually appears.