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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Swimming is the only discipline of the 3 in which a former HS swimmer who hasn't seen a pool in 10 years can probably come out and destroy a bunch of triathletes at a masters workout. Why? Because of technique not fitness.

I have a buddy that ran cross country in college just 5 years ago and no longer runs race a 5K with me and couldn't run faster than 8 minute miles. He maybe has only gained about 6lbs since college and used to run low 15 minute 5Ks, but the guy is just plain out of shape.

I question how much you really worked on technique for that year.

Crap...on the whole technique and 1:40s being like walking. Ugh..

Your running analogy is interesting. I'm guessing your friend wasn't in any kind of shape(ie low general fitness) and/or hadn't run in in many years plus being old.

I've taken a few breaks from running in my past each of about 5 years. One in my early twenties(college) and one in my early 30s. When I came back in my twenties to running, I ran probably 3 times in training and was still able to bust out sub 6 for an 8K. In my thirties, I could run 6:30ish for an 8K. Of course, each time I was completely trashed. I had fitness in each case.

So does that mean running is all technique or does it mean natural talent(not that I think I ever had that)? So in swimming maybe it could be natural talent and technique?

If I had started swimming when I was 10, perhaps i'd be fast but maybe not. Perhaps, I'm not genetically gifted for swimming.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I am not really trying to convince you and I am not trying to be snide either, but your argument has plenty of holes also. Your coach very well might have sucked. I am not ignoring talent, but it doesn't take talent to swim a 24 or run 21. Talent will get some people to each level faster, but pretty much anyone can do it. I may have more talent than you swimming and you may have more running. But I have never averaged more than 10K/week swimming and 20 miles/week running for a period longer than 6 months. That isn't much at all in either sport.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't swim a single length of a long course pool when I started triathlon.

Triathletes are shitty swimmers because they A) have shitty technique and B) because they don't fucking swim in training

Mastering technique requires repitition, repitition requires swimming, but not necessarily "hard" swimming. Let me be clear, I am not an expert, but I don't believe the term "fitness" is sport specific. VO2 is V02, what you can do with that number in a given sport is about economy. I am only evaluating the comments posted, I don't know anything about Terry.

Sub-24 is perhaps better than a sub-21 5k, but both are pretty shitty. The swim is disproportionate in most triathlon distances, so shitty swimmers can get away with it.

shitty is my word of the day.

And I couldn't run more than 800m when I started running. Doesn't mean squat.

Youre argument that "I don't believe the term"fitness" is sport specific" is also highly suspect. Pretty much everyone on BT knows that you can be an Olympic level swimmer, but if you've never run a single mile in your life, you'll get killed in a 5k running race, and vice versa. It's also the precise reason that most high level coaches ask you to determine your threshold HR zones SPECIFIC TO EACH SPORT.

The only thing I agree with you on (but I agree thoroughly with you on) is that triathletes are lousy swimmers because they don't swim enough. I suspect if most triathletes swam 15k+ (or 50k!) per week like real swimmers, even basic swim technique issues would largely self-resolve.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I guess this is what it boils down to, you don't need to do speed sessions to swim 24 minutes, you just need to swim. I re-read the original posting and do not see where Terry said anything about less swimming....he simply doesn't advocate intense swimming. Is this really a surprise or any different than running? My technique sessions are anywhere from 2500 to 3000 yards, they are still yards.

Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?

I still believe "fitness" (as defined by V02) is an absolute measure.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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That is a 55:41 IM swim pace. Granted, that's a lot faster than I can swim, but a lot slower than many here. How can that be a USMS record?

Because no one does those swims. Like you said it is not bad for a guy his age, but I'm pretty sure I could break it next year when I enter the AG, and there are a lot of guys my age that are faster than me. I would expect that Dave Scott could still do a 51minute Ironman swim at 57 from what I hear about his swim workouts there in Boulder..

To Rappstars point, Gerry R is the real deal when it comes to triathlon and OW swimming. He did not brag about some obscure time that he did, but I will tell you that in his late 40's he still goes 4:50+ in the 500SCY free. He is usuallly in the top 5 of most OW races overall, and he coached one of the premier masters squads for many, many years at UCLA. He has moved his focus to the OW now, and I would imagine there is no better blended pool/OW swim coach out there coaching on a daily basis. And I think you will find that a lot of what Gary Hall SR. is talking about will also fall into Gerry's camp. And speaking of Gary Hall, he is around the same age as Terry and I'm sure he would mop him up in any swim too. I saw him a few years ago at masters nationals, and in the 55+ AG I think he did a 56 or 57 100fly. Guaranteed that did not come from training easy all day..

I throw Terry into that group that think there is one diet/.supplement for everyone, or that there is a single way for most to train, into the garbage heap. Anyone that cannot get past the fact that human bodies are different, respond differently to the same stimulus, recover at different rates, have varying physiologies that are pre destined to be good at different distances, climate variations, and course conditions, does not deserve our attention. Unfortunately for Terry, he makes a couple good points, but when he spouts this other bullshit about going easy and long all day, they get thrown into the crazy pile with the rest of his garbage. It is the slam position for swimming, and like that old dinosaur of tri bike fitting it will be debunked and fall into the history of triathlon snake oil vendors...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I am not really trying to convince you and I am not trying to be snide either, but your argument has plenty of holes also. Your coach very well might have sucked. I am not ignoring talent, but it doesn't take talent to swim a 24 or run 21. Talent will get some people to each level faster, but pretty much anyone can do it. I may have more talent than you swimming and you may have more running. But I have never averaged more than 10K/week swimming and 20 miles/week running for a period longer than 6 months. That isn't much at all in either sport.

And I can thoroughly debunk you here as well. I've trained with numerous local community track groups over my 20 years of running..

A 21:00 5k is certainly not "fast" (it's downright slow for a junior HS mens x-country team, and here on ST, it's considered slower-than-conversationa pace for sure!) but for the person of average ability (compared to general populace), particularly one that started run training on zero background as an adult over 35, it's fast.

In fact, it's fast enough that it's actually unusual for me to find triathletes who do their first run training of their life at age 35+ (or even 30+) to run 21 min 5ks. Even with years of serious training after they start.

A 21 min 5k is fast enough to win the womens AG divisions in a lot of local 5ks. Even here in LA, where you'll see thousands of weekend marathon runners and other serious runners on the weekend training hard. You won't convince me that all these ladies are simply slacking in their workouts - far more likely is that you do require some degree of ability to run a 21:00 5k.

And on the point of speed - you HAVE to run faster and swim faster to get faster. This is indisputable. Anyone who tells you that you can get faster without working hard is full of it. Every single running program training for the 5k has hard intervals built into it. Even for rank beginners (albeit less of them.)

Almost all swim coaches, and especially the good ones (with the exception of Terry) also advocate swimming fast sets to get faster in swimming. I haven't come across a single truly fast swimmer yet who said you could get fast without fast swimming. The posts by the strong swimmers above completely confirm this.

Your posts have really lost any sort of credibility for me, and likely others.

Nuff said. Out.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 8:48
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base??

You guys have taken the liberty to bash the guy which is fine, but why not offer a few professional rebuttals in the process.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty - tell us what you really think!

Thanks...

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base?? \\

Well Gerry told you that the stroke rate is waaaay out of line, others of us have said that you cannot base a sound training plan on just easy swimming. Those are two really big things right there. Just like crank lenghts are getting shorter, the trend in swimming is to be taking more strokes, not less. Terry has been around a long time, and he has a lot invested in a technique that goes against the grain, and he is fighting to keep it relevant. Besides crank lenghts, in running there is a big push now for minimalist shoes, or even barefoot running. If you are going to survive in this industry, you have to adapt to the times and new technologies and studies. You have to listen to the pros who are on the front line doing things long before they become mainstream. That is the beauty of this site, you all get a peak in advance from some of the stuff that won't make it into any books for 5 to 10 years. Change can be good, and it is often inevitable. You see I have a long history and a somewhat intact memory, so I can recall many, many, changes that were fought and stubbornly held onto. I remember when the first clipless pedals, or aero bars came out and the cyclists poo pooed them as a triathlete fad that would die in a year or two. this sport is littered with that kind of stuff, and in just about every case I can remember, those that do not adapt, eventually die... Does Terry sound like an adaptive, open mined guy to you??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base??

You guys have taken the liberty to bash the guy which is fine, but why not offer a few professional rebuttals in the process.


Not a swim guru although I do better than your arbirtrary 1.5K swim benchmark, but no one is really disputing the benefits of good technique and that T.I. teaches excellent form and technique. What is in question is should technique drivebn training be 100% of time spent in the pool or is there also utility to doing pace based work as well. Certainly after a swimmer becomes proficient enough to swim in the 1:20-1:25/100 range consistently, they need to apply physiological stress to make fitness gains as well. T.I. focuses so much on strokes per lap it never allows for pace per lap, and I think that's a mistake.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base??

You guys have taken the liberty to bash the guy which is fine, but why not offer a few professional rebuttals in the process.


Terry is generally not only off base, but not even in the ballpark.

Something that sometimes gets lost in this recurrent debate is the concept of what constitutes "good technique." Terry's philosophies are not good technique for fast swimming.

Gerry's comment about stroke rate was very insightful. It's something that Hayley Peirsol worked on constantly as a teenager and coincided with her rise from mediocre age group swimmer to a World Championship medalist.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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I guess this is what it boils down to, you don't need to do speed sessions to swim 24 minutes, you just need to swim. I re-read the original posting and do not see where Terry said anything about less swimming....he simply doesn't advocate intense swimming. Is this really a surprise or any different than running? My technique sessions are anywhere from 2500 to 3000 yards, they are still yards.

Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?

I still believe "fitness" (as defined by V02) is an absolute measure.


Run training and swim training is not an apples-to-apples comparison. There's a level of injury risk in intense running that's just not there in intense swimming.

A hard 200 in the pool and a hard 800m on the track take me roughly the same amount of time. I could bang out hard 200's in pool every single day and be just fine. If I tried that with 800's on the track I'd be crippled.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.


Not to mention that most of slowtwitch posts over there but acts like they above all of the people on BT. Rolls eyes.

ding ding ding

and they still at least are consistent with their pulling of posts, warnings and banning.
cannot say that about some sites....and if this site is so thick skinned then why have people been banned here?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty much in your boat.

I am getting much better on the bike quickly and for some reason the run is coming very easily - i.e. will likley go sub 19:00 5k or sub 39:00 10k by the end of the season on 30 km / week of run training.

It is strange, because similar to the swimmers that suggest they don't see how people can swim so slow, I can't really see how running can be as hard for people or that you need 50, 60, 70 + mpw to get to certain times...

Put me in a pool and I am like the little dog your dad (or friend's dad) throws in the pool each year at the family barbecue for fun - Horrible!!!

I believe my 1.5 km times in Oly last year were 37:39 and 34:43....Does that count as swimming.

That said, I had a fear of the water, didn't train it hard and it showed.

This November I took a TI like course and I think it will help me - I haven't been swimming enough (still fear it a little) but am picking it up. The biggest thing that it helped me with was comfort in the water (somewhat) and body positioning...That said, when I go to the Masters workout, I do the workouts the coach says, on the times he says, with the technique he suggests, which is closer to what Gary Hall Sr. was suggesting than TI, so we'll see what happens this season.

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holy shit.....I don't really subscribe to the TI methods, but this thread is hilarious.

So, a bunch of "triathletes" that can ride a 40K in 1:00 and run a 5K in 18:00, but cannot swim for shit think their limiter is fitness??

If you cannot swim a 1.5K in under 24 minutes you need SERIOUS help with technique.


Actually, I fall into that category. (Oly 5k about 19:xx and bike spilt about 1:03xx. Swim = terrible!)

I learned to swim 2 years ago. Zero swim background. Spent an entire year on technique and nothing but technique, and only started working hard recently.

I'm sure I have some technique problems, but I've been going to a good masters program of late, and the good coach there (locally respected) agrees that at this point, I'll only make minor gains with technique. Definitely nothing like 20-30sec/100 off.

It all comes down to background. I've been running for over 15 years, and ran 8 marathons, two under sub-3. Add my genetic big legs, and it's no surprise that I can run/bike at a respectable clip.

But on swimming, the limiter is clearly my swim-related endurance and power. There simply aren't enough capillaries built up in my swim muscles to function efficiently, and I can feel it. Even though my cardio might be capable of a good bike/run, my arms/lats/back are weak, and force my heart to pump super hard just to keep up. It feels exactly as I do when I do a one-legged bike drill - HR will still spike extremely high since your heart is trying to pump more blood through your entire body to supply a fast-fatiguing area.

It took me years to go from a 25min 5k to a sub-18, and a huge amount of work. (I'm not one of the gifted ones who did it with <35mpw). There's no reason to believe that it won't take similar work to get similarly fast in swimming, years, possibly.

If you doubt this is true, consider the fact that at least two guys in our local tri club who started triathlon several years ago (earlier than me) nearly qualified for the Olympics in swimming in their prime but aren't even close to FOP on the bike/run despite focusing on bike/run now. (Granted, they are almost definitely not training as hard as they did on their swim days, but still, point remains.) Swim fitness and run fitness do not necessarily overlap.

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Chrissie wins because she trains really f'ing hard and races really f'ing hard and was blessed with a huge f'ing motor" Jordan Rapp
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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By all accounts this TI guy has taken 10's of thousands of adults that would have died if throw in the deep end of the pool and transformed them to be swimmers. That's a *real* enough coach for me.

As a former swimmer I don't need his services, but I realize teaching people to swim is a passion and he seems to have a passion for teaching, at least for the stuff i've seen and read. Just like the coach who works with newbie's at TNT stuff vs a pro's coach - they're still a coach.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [running2far] [ In reply to ]
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By all accounts this TI guy has taken 10's of thousands of adults that would have died if throw in the deep end of the pool and transformed them to be swimmers. //

No doubt, and he should stick to that and stay out of the performance end of swimming..I think that is the primary beef with him..
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [brentl] [ In reply to ]
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I'll agree that Terry doesn't tell the full tale on good technique. TI is wonderful for getting the hips up and introducing swimmers to the idea of putting body roll into a swim but starts to break down after that.

I can think of at least three total 'flags' from the video posted here of late to swimming types that have gone through TI but who haven't ventured into the fish world here yet. (slowing on the glide because they can't kick like Thorpe, not using body roll to extend the arms on the catch, keeping the recovery more relaxed by letting the lats drive the bus) And two of those are actually making you do unnecessary work despite the goal of effortless swimming.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base??

You guys have taken the liberty to bash the guy which is fine, but why not offer a few professional rebuttals in the process.


Not a swim guru although I do better than your arbirtrary 1.5K swim benchmark, but no one is really disputing the benefits of good technique and that T.I. teaches excellent form and technique. What is in question is should technique drivebn training be 100% of time spent in the pool or is there also utility to doing pace based work as well. Certainly after a swimmer becomes proficient enough to swim in the 1:20-1:25/100 range consistently, they need to apply physiological stress to make fitness gains as well. T.I. focuses so much on strokes per lap it never allows for pace per lap, and I think that's a mistake.


Yes, my benchmark swim was arbitrary, I think I read that on this site somewhere, but it is arbitrary for sure. I generally agree with what you are saying, but you do realize how few people doing triathlons can actually swim 1:20-1:25/100?

Does 1:40/100 really require any "fitness"? It seems to me that Terry is focusing on getting people into the water and making it through the swim alive, not getting people to the Olympics. Further (and this isn't directed at you Bryancd) for people to sit on this board and suggest that he is bad coach because he isn't all that "great" of a swimmer himself is absurd. There are hundreds of posts by well respected posters that dispute the myth that one, must be or have been, a great athlete to be a great coach. Isn't that the genious of Paulo?? If your problem is the fact that he is exploiting his "mediocre" skills for personal gain....I gotta say tough shit. If you have superior knowledge and a better record as an athlete, take a fucking business class and make some money, it just sounds a bit like sour grapes I guess. I expected more from some of the folks here.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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By all accounts this TI guy has taken 10's of thousands of adults that would have died if throw in the deep end of the pool and transformed them to be swimmers. //

No doubt, and he should stick to that and stay out of the performance end of swimming..I think that is the primary beef with him..


Fair enough, I can understand that and I guess I haven't followed him enough to hear him talk about the "performance end". I don't know where your definition of "performance end" begins, but the comments in the OP came off of BT and were meant to be read by non-performance end swimmers.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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[replyYes, my benchmark swim was arbitrary, I think I read that on this site somewhere, but it is arbitrary for sure. I generally agree with what you are saying, but you do realize how few people doing triathlons can actually swim 1:20-1:25/100?

Does 1:40/100 really require any "fitness"? It seems to me that Terry is focusing on getting people into the water and making it through the swim alive, not getting people to the Olympics. Further (and this isn't directed at you Bryancd) for people to sit on this board and suggest that he is bad coach because he isn't all that "great" of a swimmer himself is absurd. There are hundreds of posts by well respected posters that dispute the myth that one, must be or have been, a great athlete to be a great coach. Isn't that the genious of Paulo?? If your problem is the fact that he is exploiting his "mediocre" skills for personal gain....I gotta say tough shit. If you have superior knowledge and a better record as an athlete, take a fucking business class and make some money, it just sounds a bit like sour grapes I guess. I expected more from some of the folks here.[/reply]

I agree 100% that T.I. is and has been a great tool to get people swimming, improve upon their swimming, and completing the swim in their triathlon races. To be fair, it was Terry himself who brought up his race results int he BT thread.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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My point is him bringing up his results is nothing more than a marketing tool. If people are buying it, its because A) the people buying it are naive B) there isn't anyone else that effectively markets themselves to the masses better. Neither of those scenarios are something the guy should be chastised for. Just sayin....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Swimming is the only discipline of the 3 in which a former HS swimmer who hasn't seen a pool in 10 years can probably come out and destroy a bunch of triathletes at a masters workout.

My brother never runs, he would even never walk to the supermarket or so. He is cyclist and really believes that any kind of walking/running is bad for the legs (common believe among european cyclists). So after his race season he goes from no walking/running to running an 5.2 k, and his time is 21 minutes. 21 minutes is really incredibly slow.

In swimming you also need way more intensity training, then in cycling and running. If you apply the rules of running on swimmers you gonna create a bunch of total immersed slow guys. You need to crank up the intensity to levels way beyond what you do for run training. Same applies the other way around, if you let runners run intervals like the swimmers swim, you create a bunch of injured runners. Does not work either.

Also i must always laugh about these technique stuff and 24 mins 1500. I never did any technique, and without a background in swimming i went to 24 mins in 5 months. I almost always did one set. 5*200 m fast as possible with a few sprints afterwards. No TI or book needed. From then on i joined some triathlon swim training. And i went backwards straight away with all those drills. I know n=1, i know what the good pros wrote in this thread, i know what a good coach wrote here. There is still a market for guys promoting bull shit for lots of dollars. In triathlon it is almost like the more you ask for your books and dvd the more you sell. Weird world, cause none of these things made one champion or decent swimmer. Not a single one.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't call you N=1 but more of the 10-15% of the people who will naturally have a 'feel for the water' and can intuitively pick up on how to move through it. And who then have issues with drills because they're suddenly having to try to explain how they're doing it right when they just instinctively know how to put all the pieces together.

If my college coach ever had to do some sort of 'race for a prize' contest, he used to make us do sculling races because they were an equalizer of sorts- your speed going full stroke didn't necessarily relate much to how well you could do sculling drills, and I could beat guys who were 10 seconds/100 faster than me full stroke on scull drills.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Agree 100%.

Once a swimmer overcomes the fear of drowning they have outgrown the TI approach - IMHO.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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I never suggested you had to subscribe to TI drills and technique philosophy, but I have yet to meet a swim coach that didn't actively advocate technique on a daily basis much much more than running or riding coaches do. BTW - maybe your technique isn't all that bad to begin with.

I also agreed with you that 21 minutes is incredibly slow, so is a 24 minute 1500m swim. I am not sure what the points are in your post...at least where theyiffer from mine??
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