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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ianbal] [ In reply to ]
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With the a 24 minute 1500 should be easy in my head this morning, I decided to swim with an even higher stroke rate than usual for me. I would say I was towards the 100 mark as opposed to mid 80s. With that, I was able to take about 5 seconds off my normal 100yard splits. I felt more winded cardio-wise as well.

I also followed garyhallsr myth about ignoring the exit of each stroke to keep the rate high.

My technique still sucks but since I have no clue how to improve that I'll focus on things I can figure out and that's faster rate and doing more yards and more speed work.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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The funny thing I've noticed is that when I use a tempo trainer, that the rate is all relative.

1.05 feels fast when you start at 1.15.
It feels glacial after you've done a set at .95

When I'm at .95 I definitely have to "not finish" the stroke or I have no chance
of keeping up.

Thanks for the observations. Very interesting.

-Jot
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [M~] [ In reply to ]
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No, it wasn't just time in the pool. I was exhausting myself because I was kicking like a mad man to keep me legs from sinking. In the past I had put about the same amount of time in the pool and was never able to get beyond 4-6 laps without taking a break.

TI taught me how to balance myself in the water.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Your call:

1 2595 I Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 21:03 1:01:50 43:23 2:09:06
2 2599 I Jim Sonneborn M 50 MORRISTOW NJ 24:58 1:01:02 43:03 2:12:18


1 16 411 SPRINT Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 11:13 59:17 20:59 1:34:31
2 18 400 SPRINT David Blume M 50 WABAN MA 14:40 57:20 20:21 1:35:25


1 5003 S Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 5:41 44:25 21:11 1:13:18
2 5002 S Mark Danieli M 50 CHELMSFOR MA 7:02 42:28 21:44 1:13:26
No, it is their call.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run.
--------------------------------------------------------------

This is why most triathletes suck in the water. I went from a 29:xx 1500m to a 23:xx 1500m in 2 weeks. Yeah you read that right, 2 weeks. Being 6 min faster made a big improvement in my finishing place, getting my swim under 19:00 eventually didn't hurt me either.

The majority of triathletes probably have more time to gain by working on swimming and can gain it in a shorter period of time then they have upside potential in biking or running.

Besides improving your swimming is faster then a new set of wheels, but most people don't know how to objectively evaluate then maximize their triathlon ROI.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: May 20, 10 16:19
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ianbal] [ In reply to ]
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Please consider one other factor: Many triathletes from non-swim backgrounds being taught this slow, easy swimming that are also taught to breath bilaterally or even every 4th stroke run into further issues; example: The 80 rate athlete breathing every cycle (or every 2nd stroke) will get 40 breaths every minute; significant oxygen to facilitate their sustained output. The 55 rate athlete, breathing biltaerally (every 3rd), or those that breathe every 4th will only get breaths every 14-18 times per minute. This is a huge variance in oxygen to the muscles.

Although I'm not an exercise psychologist, I'd still go with the more breath opportunities. This does not imply not to breathe bilaterally, but perhaps it can be done as one length on the right, then one on the left, or several times to the right, then several to the left. One does need bilateral breathing skills for open water. Good luck!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run.
--------------------------------------------------------------

This is why most triathletes suck in the water. I went from a 29:xx 1500m to a 23:xx 1500m in 2 weeks. Yeah you read that right, 2 weeks. Being 6 min faster made a big improvement in my finishing place, getting my swim under 19:00 eventually didn't hurt me either.

The majority of triathletes probably have more time to gain by working on swimming and can gain it in a shorter period of time then they have upside potential in biking or running.

Besides improving your swimming is faster then a new set of wheels, but most people don't know how to objectively evaluate then maximize their triathlon ROI.

Yeah, when you really think about it, you can increase your total weekly yardage simply by swimming an extra 10-15:00 per training session. You're already there, may as well. So more volume is good. And when there, you will need to swim at least 60% or more at or above goal race pace efforts. People who will cane themselves on the bike or flog themselves running get very non-HTFU in the pool. Being out of breath with your face in the water sucks. Hard swimming makes your whole body, not just your legs, feel very stressed. It sucks...but it works.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks again, this makes sense. Can you talk about the reasons for different stroke rate ranges as being important for OW swimmers? It seems that increasing my stroke rate to 80 will increase speed, would there be any valid reason to swim less than that? I see the case for increasing stroke rate for the fast finish or start or bridge to next swimmer.

Ian
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I don't agree with that either, Barry. I think most running coaches would advocate that the most important aspect of run training is to first build up volume and frequency slowly and then to vary intensity. That doesn't mean 1000M repeats at 100% effeort, but certainly tempo and higher intensity efforts are crucial to improving run fitness.I believe the same can be applied to swim training, Terry does not, that's our fundamental disagreement. Terryu thinks that traditional concept of training our aerobic system is psuedo-science. I don't agreee.
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I didn't write the post that you disagreed with and I'm not entirely sure what point I made that you don't agree with.

I was responding to saltman saying, in a nutshell, swimmers can do a higher percentage of higher intensity training than runners.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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You wrote "Trent Grimsley, went to a stroke rate of nearing 100/minute with a strong 6BK. The chase pack then ignited their rates to 84-92 with an increase to a 6BK."

Did the pack have a 2 beat kick for the majority of the swim? Could Iron distance open water swimmers make the first tier predominantly with a 2BK similar to how Laure Manaudou swam the 400m in Athens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQUqn5b_Na4

Thanks,
Damon

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
This is why most triathletes suck in the water. I went from a 29:xx 1500m to a 23:xx 1500m in 2 weeks. Yeah you read that right, 2 weeks. Being 6 min faster made a big improvement in my finishing place, getting my swim under 19:00 eventually didn't hurt me either.

The majority of triathletes probably have more time to gain by working on swimming and can gain it in a shorter period of time then they have upside potential in biking or running.

Besides improving your swimming is faster then a new set of wheels, but most people don't know how to objectively evaluate then maximize their triathlon ROI.

Can I assume you had good/great swim technique for the 29xx and then did some harder swim workouts in the 2 weeks to get 23xx? Or was it bad technique to good/great technique for that gain?

I think us land based triathletes focus on the other two sports because we can get online training plans/advice and immediately put them to use. Even read a book or two. I can also do that with my pool workouts but none of those things takes bad technique and turns it into good technique. It seems with swimming you need someone to look at your technique and help you tweak all the things wrong with it over and over.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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I have to say, for the first time in I don't know when (if ever haha) I went to the pool last night for my 2500 swim and pushed the entire way.

Cut 3 minutes off my time. Felt absolutely terrible after I was done (Like shaking terrible) but man, in a way, really felt like I got my swim on.
(By the way, by no means was I fast in the water...just faster for me haha)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I didn't write the post that you disagreed with and I'm not entirely sure what point I made that you don't agree with.

I was responding to saltman saying, in a nutshell, swimmers can do a higher percentage of higher intensity training than runners.


Sorry, I must have mis-read it. :)

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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horrible technique to decent technique and that took hard work

Then more hard work began to get to sub 19:00.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, you have no Idea what your talking about. "Hard Work?" This is triathlon, Its all about volume. Nevermind that I can't break 1:45 for a LC 100m. I swim more than you. Well, time wise I do. I got in 6 hours of swimming last week, it was only about 6k. But thats not the point.
Pfff,... "Hard work" next thing you know you'll be saying that I should be doing intervals. How do you live with yourself knowing that you are giving such bad information.


(this post is drenched in sarcasm.)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Dude:

While I am happy it worked out for you that way, I am much different. I swim min 9k per week (more like 12 now), I have a coach and I have a workout plan for every swim that will include speed work, I can not say I have made that much improvement in 12 months. There is some talent involved in the equation also.

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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Dude:

While I am happy it worked out for you that way, I am much different. I swim min 9k per week (more like 12 now), I have a coach and I have a workout plan for every swim that will include speed work, I can not say I have made that much improvement in 12 months. There is some talent involved in the equation also.

Me thinks it may be time for a new coach/plan. :)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Ask him if he's coached anyone fast. When he comes back with a "no" or no answer, well then, you've got your answer for his creds.
I'm new here, but find this thread interesting. It's not my place to speak for Terry, but I do know a little bit about TI history. Not sure of the exact dates, but back in the mid 90s, Terry went to coach at West Point. He volunteered to coach the most "under performing" group there, not knowing what he would get. He ended up with the "sprint" group if memory serves. One of his goals was to prove that TI methods could work at a high level - Division 1 in this case. You can read the Patriot League record books for yourselves, but will see that during the 3 yrs. Terry coached there & after - roughly starting around '96-'97 - Army's sprinters (individual & relay) ruled. In particular, a guy named Joe Novak ruled. Those swimmers, while having to perform at a high level, had to do it right before they could do it harder of faster. It they got "ragged" or "sloppy" they would go back, drill, slow down, calm down & try again. The results speak for themselves...
http://www.patriotleague.org/...2009-10PLMWSDRecords
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy] [ In reply to ]
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That brings back some memories. I was on that late 90's Lafayette team. "Smokin" Joe Novak was impressive.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [M~] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Dude:

While I am happy it worked out for you that way, I am much different. I swim min 9k per week (more like 12 now), I have a coach and I have a workout plan for every swim that will include speed work, I can not say I have made that much improvement in 12 months. There is some talent involved in the equation also.

Me thinks it may be time for a new coach/plan. :)

Seriously. I'm swimming maybe 6-9k a week in 2-3 sessions, and I'm steadily improving every week or two, and I'm close to doing sub 2:00 for 200scy sets, so it's not like I'm starting from scratch.

Have you considered finding a masters team to train with? Have you taken a month break?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Boudreaux] [ In reply to ]
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TI may be perfect for a person in your position, but as others have indicated, once you achieve your first goal (not drowning while swimming 1,000 yards non-stop)...there are many other ways to accomplish the next goal - speed at the same 1K yards.
Why would that be the next goal? I would encourage someone to have a different "next" goal once they've not drowned - swim that 1K without thinking about the possibility of drowning. Then swim it with relative ease & comfort. Then swim it with great ease & comfort. There are lots of ways to build toward speed without actually trying to go faster. But even that misses the important point for MOST triathletes - why not enjoy & cruise the swim so you're so fresh for T1 & the bike that you cream your best bike time? And wouldn't that have a "knock-on" effect of improving your run?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy] [ In reply to ]
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why not enjoy & cruise the swim so you're so fresh for T1 & the bike that you cream your best bike time?\\

While you are at it, why not cruise the bike and run and really have some fun??? Because it is a race..It has been shown over and over that the faster group you can get on the bike course with, the better your bike split will be. And it is also shown that in general, the slower the swim group you exit with, the slower bike group you will ride in..

I enjoy racing the swim, not cruising it, cruising is what I like to do at the end of workout in my warm down. But that is me, I'm one of those competitive guys that likes to get my maximum value at the races I pay for...If I took your advice I would bike slower, not faster, but again that is just me I guess..
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I find this thread fairly entertaining...in a humorous way.

People can learn to swim fast as adults. I've seen it happen. Most people don't get there, though. Why? They just aren't willing to do the work necessary to get fast. When the coach calls for 10 more 100s after they are already sucking breath from the first 10...they quit...hang on the side of the pool...or otherwise sandbag. Thats where kids have the advantage. They just keep going....believing the adult on the side of the pool knows what is best...and they don't just give up. Well, the ones who get fast don't give up, anyway.

The idea that someone can get fast swimming what cyclists and runners might call Z2...is laughable. If someone suggested that a cyclist could progress from a 1:30 40k to a sub-hour 40k riding Z2...even lots of miles...that person would be laughed out of the room. Train at Z2 in the pool...you're going to get real good...at swimming Z2...with a low turnover rate and keeping the same crappy form.

And here we have an "expert" claiming that swiming fast is all technique?

Phooey.

If you want to swim fast...you have to train fast. Train fast WAAAAAY past when it hurts. Shut off that adult brain that tells you to "be reasonable about this"...and just frappin swim...HARD.
Ahhh, but what is fast?
Sorry to ask, BriTriGuy, but since you're making a pretty forceful proposition here do you have any experience as a competitive swimmer or coach?
Is it possible you're "training" philosophy is, "no pain, no gain"?
I'm curious, what kind of time did you hold on that set of 20 x 100?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Then swim it with relative ease & comfort. Then swim it with great ease & comfort. There are lots of ways to build toward speed without actually trying to go faster. But even that misses the important point for MOST triathletes - why not enjoy & cruise the swim so you're so fresh for T1 & the bike that you cream your best bike time? And wouldn't that have a "knock-on" effect of improving your run?

My tri swimming mantra actually has always been 'train hard so you can race easy' - work hard on bringing the aerobic threshold pace down in the pool, and then come out of the water on race day not only fresh as a daisy but also at the front of the pack.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [blueraider_mike] [ In reply to ]
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Just spent 45 minutes reading this thread...both camps are right and wrong. I am 45 been doing tris for 5 years and learned (still learning) to swim the first year. Not a fast swimmer; 1:25 IM swim, 29 min OLY. One thing T1 does, I think, is speak a language new swimmers can understand. I have read the book but never been to a camp. On the flip side, I have had private lessons from 2 different coaches and done some masters swimming. The good news is I know my biggest limiter - my f'in feet and legs are anchors - might as well put a patachute on in the water. The bad news is the coaches I have worked with started slapping pull bouys, fins and other crap so I could "feel" what it was like having my lower body higher - this doesn't do shit for me. Then they throw you in a master class and say keep up. So you huff and puff and keep up but your techniques sucks - it doesn't translate.

Fine, I need to swim more, harder, increase my stroke rate (which is low). But, until my freaking legs aren't sinking a foot below my body all the HTFU will not matter - just wasted effort.

What I find really interesting is the pile on that happens to TL - don't have a dog in the hunt, just saying.
You're experience is pretty typical, unfortunately. The "coaches" who wanted you to "feel" what it was like don't understand how to help you get that feeling on your own, which is sad. Balance - hugging the surface from head-to-toe - is arguably the most important swimming skill, yet so few "coaches" understand what it is, let alone how to teach it.
Were any of them surprised when your legs sunk again after removing the pb, fins or other crap?
Did they even notice?
What did they say when you asked them why your legs wouldn't stay up even after you got the "feeling" with the pool toys?
If you want to get your legs (& hips) to the surface just press your chest (lungs) down - like your body's a teeter-tooter. It's simple... not necessarily easy, but simple!
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