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Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT
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There's a fascinating debate with Terry Laughlin himself from Total Immersion on BeginnerTriathlete, where he's justifying his "go-easy" training methods for all athletes, not just beginners. A few strong swimmers are actively participating, which is making for a very interesting discussion. Was wondering what the opinion of the fishies on ST was about the points brought up.

Thread here: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/...tart=81&posts=97

Some of the controversial quotes from Terry himself on the thread:

===

"Unlike in running and cycling, there has never been any correlation established between ANY fitness measure and swimming performance. Energy system training works for some swimmers. Fails for far more.

The only absolute correlation that exists in swimming is SL x SR = V. And that equation is far more influenced by neural conditioning than aerobic."

===

"I know this is anecdotal, but I never swim "extremely hard," let alone on a regular basis, yet swam the USMS 2-mile Cable Swim in 46:20 at age 56, breaking my own USMS 55-59 record.

This summer my goal is to break my USMS 55-59 1-Mile Cable Swim record during my final year in the age group. At no time will I swim extremely hard in training. And if I reach max effort during the event, it will only be for the final 100-200m."

===

You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water.

===

Of the 3 disciplines in triathlon, swimming is the only one ideally suited to restoration. If you train strategically, a good, relaxed, technique-oriented swim practice can aid in your recovery for the land-based training that is more naturally stressful. If you try to HTFU in the pool, you will almost certainly compromise your run and bike training.
[
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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none of that sounds controversial to me unless you are a pro who needs to be strong enough to get to, and stay with the lead pack the whole time

also I bet, just as in discussions about LSD running, that "easy" training for him is pretty brutal for the average age grouper noob.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)

If you read the threads in context and to whom he's replying to, you'll see that he's against the approach of working hard in the pool for strength and endurance. Per his philosophy, pure focus on technique will yield all the speed you will ever need.

I happen to think this is true for rank beginners, but I definitely don't agree with this even for an early intermediate swimmer. I don't think technique alone will get you into even MOP if you don't have any endurance and power training.

I just learned to swim a little less than 2 years ago, but for sure, after a year of needed technique-focus, I didn't get any faster by following the "swim easy" approach. In contrast, I've made definite improvements with serious intervals and distance (after seeing a coach to verify my technique didn't have any fatal flaws that were really going to inhibit me.)
Last edited by: lightheir: May 18, 10 21:57
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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ive got a long way to go before I can swim as fast as my coach who doesn't really train anymore at all.

that would suggest to me that technique is still my major limiter

Im at like 10x100@1:40 he is at infinityx100 at 1:10

heh



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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terry laughlin himself can keep putting out that garbage slow swimming while the rest of the swimming world gets fast.

as usual, someone is trying to sell a gimmick to lazy rich triathletes that want to skip the work.

the only truth he spouts is a ridiculously verbose wall of text that really simply means, pace well.

"You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water."

"brevity is the soul of wit" LOL
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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ive got a long way to go before I can swim as fast as my coach who doesn't really train anymore at all.

that would suggest to me that technique is still my major limiter

Im at like 10x100@1:40 he is at infinityx100 at 1:10

heh

I highly doubt that it's all technique.

To give a related example, I'm was a pure runner, and trained very hard (70-100 mpw), and had a stress fx 2 years ago. Took 4 months completely off running and I couldn't even bike for most of it because it was too much pressure on the foot.

Came back slowly - started with running 3 miles per week total for 2 weeks, then ramped up to 10 miles per week.

At that point, I tried a 5k and cranked it out in 19:55. (My PR is 17:50.) Definitely nowhere close to my PR, but for the typical BT forumite, that's faster than they'll ever run no matter how much they train.

You could similarly say "it was all my excellent running technique." Which is a load of bull. Serious conditioning pays huge dividends for years. But building to that level takes hard, hard work. Just because the experts make it look easy doesn't mean that they didn't train their rear off to get it in the first place.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Ask him if he's coached anyone fast. When he comes back with a "no" or no answer, well then, you've got your answer for his creds.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Ask him if he's coached anyone fast. When he comes back with a "no" or no answer, well then, you've got your answer for his creds.
\

But you are like, one of the fastest swimmers in the world right mark?

I think the claim is more like, you can get 90% of the way there without brutal swim workouts, with just technique and lots and lots of practice.

i don't think the claim is that you can be first out of the water without brutal swim workouts.

i need to swim more



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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The first thing little kids do when they learn to swim is sprint 25s up and down the pool. NOT do a shit load of yards. (*some* drill work too).

You need to sprint more.

As well as go to bed as it's past 1am central time. :D

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Last edited by: MarkyV: May 18, 10 23:14
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water.

I would go out on a limb and say EVERYONE'S best race will happen when they pace their swim well. But that doesn't mean keeping the RPE/HR low during training is an effective way of becoming a faster swimmer.


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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The thing that really bugs me about TI is that it's easier to have better, not worse, technique when you're swimming near-all out. Last time I did a swim focus, my best technique started to come when I incorporated sets of 25s at very high intensity, thinking about technique, though. Good technique and lolly-gagging is a contradiction in terms.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I sense a Garyhallsr smackdown comin.....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
ive got a long way to go before I can swim as fast as my coach who doesn't really train anymore at all.

that would suggest to me that technique is still my major limiter

Im at like 10x100@1:40 he is at infinityx100 at 1:10

heh


<nonsense deleted due to wrong reading>

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Last edited by: Just Old Again: May 19, 10 6:50
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I expect there is a 'efficient frontier' that optimizes fitness and technique (not that they are mutually exclusive) but one quote i recall (sorry, can't remember a cite) is that in swimming a 33% increase in power yields a 10% increase in speed; but a 10% decrease in drag yields an 11% increase in speed. it certainly seems that decreasing drag should be an important part of training. now, certainly you can learn this by swimming slow as well as by swimming fast. but whichever way, one needs to learn it in order to achieve quality race times without extraordinary effort.
I would think there would be some way to graph speed at various distances to determine fitness vs. technique. similar to the nomogram of Mercier-Leger-Desjardin for running.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jpflores] [ In reply to ]
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I would go out on a limb and say EVERYONE'S best race will happen when they pace their swim well. But that doesn't mean keeping the RPE/HR low during training is an effective way of becoming a faster swimmer.

Yeah. In terms of the swim side of things, I'm all about train hard-race easy. On a four point scale, I largely train at a level 3/4 effort, and then back it down to second gear on race day.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ttram] [ In reply to ]
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I sense a Garyhallsr smackdown comin.....


Gary Hall Sr. HAS jumped into a few of these threads on BT! I'm one of the people over their challenging Terry on some of his protocols. In fact it was a post of mine he was responding to when he suggested that thershold work in swimming isn't worthwhile. Out of respect, I have tried to suggest that there's room for different forms of swim training protocol and to exclude pace work is a mistake, but he refuses to allow for that. It's dissapointing really, he and his supporters come across as fanatical as opposed to reasonable sometimes.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [paul_tx] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Last edited by: Bryancd: May 19, 10 5:53
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.


I say that mainly because as a group they are so thin skinned that they'll go crying to administrators if you write something
they don't want to hear. That's certainly not HTFU.

Being fat and slow is one thing, but being a crybaby is another.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Terry has years of experience in which he developed very strong muscles and technique that allows him to just maintain his current speed (and slightly improve it over time). You can't tell the avg age grouper that they should swim easy = the avg age grouper needs to spend the same time Terry did in developing the proper muscles and technique. It takes years of hard training to be able to develop the muscles necessary to swim fast without a lot of effort.



http://jesse.centuries.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [paul_tx] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.


I say that mainly because as a group they are so thin skinned that they'll go crying to administrators if you write something
they don't want to hear. That's certainly not HTFU.

Being fat and slow is one thing, but being a crybaby is another.


Oh, well that's true. :) I would just take a bit of care disparaging them...as I am one of them. Besides, you want silly, there's a thread here on the front page with people saying Netwon shoe's make them forefoot strikers and run faster.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.

Not to mention that most of slowtwitch posts over there but acts like they above all of the people on BT. Rolls eyes.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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terry laughlin himself can keep putting out that garbage slow swimming while the rest of the swimming world gets fast.

as usual, someone is trying to sell a gimmick to lazy rich triathletes that want to skip the work.

the only truth he spouts is a ridiculously verbose wall of text that really simply means, pace well.

"You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water."

"brevity is the soul of wit" LOL


I will admit- I bought into the TI Kool-Aid last year when I started triathlons. I have only been swimming for about 20 months but in all honesty, it helped me a lot- to a point. I spent a lot of time focusing on their drills and "feeling" the water.

After I could swim relatively decent (decent being a stretch) then came the hard work. Just with anything, you need to put the time and effort into the workout to become faster.

Maybe some people have the talent I lack. However, if I want to run a 5k in 20:00, I better be able to complete half-mile repeats under 3:00 and mile repeats around 6:00. For me, I have to train my body at that pace in order to hit that pace.

Again, for me, the same goes for swimming. If I want to average 1:40/100 on my next sprint, I should probably be hitting 1:30-1:35 in the pool or it's not going to happen. I can tell you for certain if all I do is swim 2:00/100- chances are my swim time will be right around 2:00/100.

Again, just my opinion.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JoshBoots] [ In reply to ]
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terry laughlin himself can keep putting out that garbage slow swimming while the rest of the swimming world gets fast.

as usual, someone is trying to sell a gimmick to lazy rich triathletes that want to skip the work.

the only truth he spouts is a ridiculously verbose wall of text that really simply means, pace well.

"You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water."

"brevity is the soul of wit" LOL


I will admit- I bought into the TI Kool-Aid last year when I started triathlons. I have only been swimming for about 20 months but in all honesty, it helped me a lot- to a point. I spent a lot of time focusing on their drills and "feeling" the water.

After I could swim relatively decent (decent being a stretch) then came the hard work. Just with anything, you need to put the time and effort into the workout to become faster.

Maybe some people have the talent I lack. However, if I want to run a 5k in 20:00, I better be able to complete half-mile repeats under 3:00 and mile repeats around 6:00. For me, I have to train my body at that pace in order to hit that pace.

Again, for me, the same goes for swimming. If I want to average 1:40/100 on my next sprint, I should probably be hitting 1:30-1:35 in the pool or it's not going to happen. I can tell you for certain if all I do is swim 2:00/100- chances are my swim time will be right around 2:00/100.

Again, just my opinion.


Right, and this is what a lot of us have been suggesting, but he refuses to allow for it. He has a product and a protocol to advocate, which I get, but he seems to lack perspective and objectivity.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.


I say that mainly because as a group they are so thin skinned that they'll go crying to administrators if you write something
they don't want to hear. That's certainly not HTFU.

Being fat and slow is one thing, but being a crybaby is another.


Oh, well that's true. :) I would just take a bit of care disparaging them...as I am one of them. Besides, you want silly, there's a thread here on the front page with people saying Netwon shoe's make them forefoot strikers and run faster.

Bryan I thought we went over this... if you had been wearing Newton's instead of those silly Zoot's... just think of how much better your 10k time would have been.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [leegoocrap] [ In reply to ]
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[replyBryan I thought we went over this... if you had been wearing Newton's instead of those silly Zoot's... just think of how much better your 10k time would have been.[/reply]

LOL! Another BT'er to the rescue! :) That Newton thread wouldn't have gone 3 posts on BT without someone suggesting that perhaps improved run pacing might be the results of their training as opposed to their shoe's. Come ST! They are like lambs to the slaughter! ;)

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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you have the wrong "he"

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Heh yourself. If we go by his 2mi swim record, he's more like at 35x100 at 1:20.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I'm uncertain how to break the news to the TI followers, but here's direct: Terry is a good guy, and pretty fair to mediocre swimmer; technically sound in many areas, but medoicre in speed. Winning a 2-mile cable swim may seem to give credibility, and for some justify these training techniques, but a USMS 2-mile cable swim may have 100 people total entered in it. And 46 minutes in a cable swim (read as you can't swim crooked) is pretty mediocre swimming for a "swimmer", even at 56 year old. Here is keeping it simple, real simple: Train at faster rates to be fast, train only slow to be slow. There is one major element that TI misses: STROKE RATE. Terry claims his is 55 strokes per minute. At a recent 10k swim race in Brazil, the lead pack swam at a rate of approx. 84/min, until the break occured at about the 7k, where rates went to 92-100 for the entire last 3k. Go check the stroke race rates from the likes of: Andy Potts, John Flannigan, Sara McClarty, Hayley Piersol, Clayton Fettel, Havier Gomez.....none are low.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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It's always depressing to swim next to fast guys. One of swim coaches has gone 2:00 for a 200m IM...I'm pretty sure I can only keep up when he does sculling drills and I'm sprinting.
Last edited by: Uncle Phil: May 19, 10 6:38
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I'm uncertain how to break the news to the TI followers, but here's direct: Terry is a good guy, and pretty fair to mediocre swimmer; technically sound in many areas, but medoicre in speed. Winning a 2-mile cable swim may seem to give credibility, and for some justify these training techniques, but a USMS 2-mile cable swim may have 100 people total entered in it. And 46 minutes in a cable swim (read as you can't swim crooked) is pretty mediocre swimming for a "swimmer", even at 56 year old. Here is keeping it simple, real simple: Train at faster rates to be fast, train only slow to be slow. There is one major element that TI misses: STROKE RATE. Terry claims his is 55 strokes per minute. At a recent 10k swim race in Brazil, the lead pack swam at a rate of approx. 84/min, until the break occured at about the 7k, where rates went to 92-100 for the entire last 3k. Go check the stroke race rates from the likes of: Andy Potts, John Flannigan, Sara McClarty, Hayley Piersol, Clayton Fettel, Havier Gomez.....none are low.


He posted those results, it was around 21:xx for 1.5K average, which for a swim only race didn't seem very fast to me either even in his AG, and I posted as much, but he didn't respond.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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[replyBryan I thought we went over this... if you had been wearing Newton's instead of those silly Zoot's... just think of how much better your 10k time would have been.


LOL! Another BT'er to the rescue! :) That Newton thread wouldn't have gone 3 posts on BT without someone suggesting that perhaps improved run pacing might be the results of their training as opposed to their shoe's. Come ST! They are like lambs to the slaughter! ;)[/reply]
To all fairness though, it would have also spawned a couple of Vibram Five Finger threads too...

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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holy shit.....I don't really subscribe to the TI methods, but this thread is hilarious.

So, a bunch of "triathletes" that can ride a 40K in 1:00 and run a 5K in 18:00, but cannot swim for shit think their limiter is fitness??

If you cannot swim a 1.5K in under 24 minutes you need SERIOUS help with technique.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Qaulified or not he has found a huge, gullible audience to market his product. Just like all the coach wannbes there he'll be laughing all the way to bank.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JoshBoots] [ In reply to ]
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terry laughlin himself can keep putting out that garbage slow swimming while the rest of the swimming world gets fast.

as usual, someone is trying to sell a gimmick to lazy rich triathletes that want to skip the work.

the only truth he spouts is a ridiculously verbose wall of text that really simply means, pace well.

"You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water."

"brevity is the soul of wit" LOL


I will admit- I bought into the TI Kool-Aid last year when I started triathlons. I have only been swimming for about 20 months but in all honesty, it helped me a lot- to a point. I spent a lot of time focusing on their drills and "feeling" the water.

After I could swim relatively decent (decent being a stretch) then came the hard work. Just with anything, you need to put the time and effort into the workout to become faster.

Maybe some people have the talent I lack. However, if I want to run a 5k in 20:00, I better be able to complete half-mile repeats under 3:00 and mile repeats around 6:00. For me, I have to train my body at that pace in order to hit that pace.

Again, for me, the same goes for swimming. If I want to average 1:40/100 on my next sprint, I should probably be hitting 1:30-1:35 in the pool or it's not going to happen. I can tell you for certain if all I do is swim 2:00/100- chances are my swim time will be right around 2:00/100.

Again, just my opinion.

This is 100% what I experienced, and after talking to other folks in the local triclub who learned to swim with TI at the same time I did, it's the NORM, not the exception. It's really "duh, common sense!" but Terry definitely oversells his TI approach.

I think he does this subconsciously - he's an accomplished swimmer with a lifetime of swimming experience, so his "go easy" taps into that. So it likely does work for him as it does for folks who swam a bunch in childhood and revisited it as an adult.

But for adult true newb learners like myself, it's not realistic at all. How are you possible supposed to magically swim 1:40/100m for 1500m when all you do in practice is do well-rested, technique-perfect sets at your uber-comfy pace of 2:10/100m with tons of rest between each 200m? I had repeated rude awakenings of swimming closer to 2:30 in OWS on race day because of the shock of having to swim while fatigued - something I hadn't done enough in practice due to Terry's advice.

Perhaps the only good thing, in my opinion, about the outlandish claim that you can swim fast with no hard work, is that it seduces newbs (like me) who otherwise wouldn't have touched triathlon with a 10-foot pole because of our fear of the swim leg. If I knew how hard I'd have to work on the swim just to get to MOP, I almost certainly never would have started triathlon at all! But I drank Terry's cool aid, and I recall being super-excited to find that "free speed" he was talking about.

2 years later, and I've yet to find any sort of free speed in swimming. Yes, technique is crucial, and I spent an entire year doing nothing but technique, but I wouldn't call that free speed, more like avoiding drowning (slower than 2:40/100m.)

I can tell you what definitely works for a beginner like me to get a lot faster, though. Swim 15,000k per week. For months. That DEFINITELY works, and is absolutely indisputable. Regardless of what minor technical flaws you still have.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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holy shit.....I don't really subscribe to the TI methods, but this thread is hilarious.

So, a bunch of "triathletes" that can ride a 40K in 1:00 and run a 5K in 18:00, but cannot swim for shit think their limiter is fitness??

If you cannot swim a 1.5K in under 24 minutes you need SERIOUS help with technique.

Well...you don't use your arms in either a 40k bike or 5k so I'd have to say fitness and perfect technique wouldn't get you to a 24min swim..IMHO

Unless you have a swim technique that doesn't require you to move your arms?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I think he's right about everything he said.

Pay special attention to his 'caveat' where he makes an exception for those elite swimmers that did a ton of red-line training in their youth...those are probably the studly swimmers giving him grief on the BT thread (or their disciples who are just repeating what they heard).
IMO, elite swimmers are not necessarily the best people to get your advice from. They are physiologically different. It's like their childhood of swimming evolved them in to something we will never be.

And he made a VERY, VERY good point about swimming being restorative. It can be better for recovery than just laying in your bed.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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holy shit.....I don't really subscribe to the TI methods, but this thread is hilarious.

So, a bunch of "triathletes" that can ride a 40K in 1:00 and run a 5K in 18:00, but cannot swim for shit think their limiter is fitness??

If you cannot swim a 1.5K in under 24 minutes you need SERIOUS help with technique.

Actually, I fall into that category. (Oly 5k about 19:xx and bike spilt about 1:03xx. Swim = terrible!)

I learned to swim 2 years ago. Zero swim background. Spent an entire year on technique and nothing but technique, and only started working hard recently.

I'm sure I have some technique problems, but I've been going to a good masters program of late, and the good coach there (locally respected) agrees that at this point, I'll only make minor gains with technique. Definitely nothing like 20-30sec/100 off.

It all comes down to background. I've been running for over 15 years, and ran 8 marathons, two under sub-3. Add my genetic big legs, and it's no surprise that I can run/bike at a respectable clip.

But on swimming, the limiter is clearly my swim-related endurance and power. There simply aren't enough capillaries built up in my swim muscles to function efficiently, and I can feel it. Even though my cardio might be capable of a good bike/run, my arms/lats/back are weak, and force my heart to pump super hard just to keep up. It feels exactly as I do when I do a one-legged bike drill - HR will still spike extremely high since your heart is trying to pump more blood through your entire body to supply a fast-fatiguing area.

It took me years to go from a 25min 5k to a sub-18, and a huge amount of work. (I'm not one of the gifted ones who did it with <35mpw). There's no reason to believe that it won't take similar work to get similarly fast in swimming, years, possibly.

If you doubt this is true, consider the fact that at least two guys in our local tri club who started triathlon several years ago (earlier than me) nearly qualified for the Olympics in swimming in their prime but aren't even close to FOP on the bike/run despite focusing on bike/run now. (Granted, they are almost definitely not training as hard as they did on their swim days, but still, point remains.) Swim fitness and run fitness do not necessarily overlap.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 7:33
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jyeager] [ In reply to ]
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I'm amused by the 'elite swimmer' tag because I suppose I'm pretty typical of ex-fish who end up in the sport in that I'd describe my ability level as mediocre to above average.

But I learned the lesson well of how to hold everything together while suffering, which is something I feel is a key to comfortable open water swimming and racing. If you never learn that lesson, then how are you supposed to handle it if the current kicks up badly, you get elbowed by another competitor in the ribs, you randomly cramp up for whatever reason. How do you know how to manage the aftermath if you get excited at the start and take it out hard enough to screw up breathing and heart rate if you haven't trained how to handle yourself when you feel like crap and your race is going pear-shaped?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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holy shit.....I don't really subscribe to the TI methods, but this thread is hilarious.

So, a bunch of "triathletes" that can ride a 40K in 1:00 and run a 5K in 18:00, but cannot swim for shit think their limiter is fitness??

If you cannot swim a 1.5K in under 24 minutes you need SERIOUS help with technique.


Well...you don't use your arms in either a 40k bike or 5k so I'd have to say fitness and perfect technique wouldn't get you to a 24min swim..IMHO

Unless you have a swim technique that doesn't require you to move your arms?


The fact that you think it takes "fitness in your arms"....whatever that is, to swim a 24 minute 1500m shows you haven't a clue what you are talking about. BTW - a good 10 year old boy can swim that fast. It only takes fitness to swim a 1:40/100 if you are a shitty swimmer (based on technique). If you have reasonably sound technique 1:40/100 is a nice all-day cruise pace.....kind of like walking. I say this as a guy that considers himself to still be a shitty swimmer, but seem to come out near the FOP in the swim in most races. I am about a 1:05 40K TT and 21 minute 5K guy.

Just because you don't like the guy or the TI method doesn't mean he isn't correct in the larger picture. The methods are different, but the message is the same.
Last edited by: saltman: May 19, 10 7:46
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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All very valuable skills to handle the hardships we plan to avoid, but still happen. For me, I roll over on my back and backstroke a bit! Someone like yourself can probably just carry on with at least a 1:30/100m pace while coming back under threshold nice and comfortably. ;)

Not true for draft-legal racing, but for non-draft, my goal is to get out of the water sub-threshold. You are only about 20% in to an endurance race after all.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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I'm uncertain how to break the news to the TI followers, but here's direct: Terry is a good guy, and pretty fair to mediocre swimmer; technically sound in many areas, but medoicre in speed. Winning a 2-mile cable swim may seem to give credibility, and for some justify these training techniques, but a USMS 2-mile cable swim may have 100 people total entered in it. And 46 minutes in a cable swim (read as you can't swim crooked) is pretty mediocre swimming for a "swimmer", even at 56 year old. Here is keeping it simple, real simple: Train at faster rates to be fast, train only slow to be slow. There is one major element that TI misses: STROKE RATE. Terry claims his is 55 strokes per minute. At a recent 10k swim race in Brazil, the lead pack swam at a rate of approx. 84/min, until the break occured at about the 7k, where rates went to 92-100 for the entire last 3k. Go check the stroke race rates from the likes of: Andy Potts, John Flannigan, Sara McClarty, Hayley Piersol, Clayton Fettel, Havier Gomez.....none are low.

Just in case anyone missed this. Gerry is a *real* swimming coach - and a very good one. If you want to learn how to swim faster, read THIS post, and ignore anything Terry Laughlin writes. Terry is interested in selling TI videos/classes/etc. Gerry is interested in people swimming faster.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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holy shit.....I don't really subscribe to the TI methods, but this thread is hilarious.

So, a bunch of "triathletes" that can ride a 40K in 1:00 and run a 5K in 18:00, but cannot swim for shit think their limiter is fitness??

If you cannot swim a 1.5K in under 24 minutes you need SERIOUS help with technique.


Well...you don't use your arms in either a 40k bike or 5k so I'd have to say fitness and perfect technique wouldn't get you to a 24min swim..IMHO

Unless you have a swim technique that doesn't require you to move your arms?

The fact that you think it takes "fitness in your arms"....whatever that is, to swim a 24 minute 1500m shows you haven't a clue what you are talking about. BTW - a good 10 year old boy can swim that fast. It only takes fitness to swim a 1:40/100 if you are a shitty swimmer (based on technique). If you have reasonably sound technique 1:40/100 is a nice all-day cruise pace.....kind of like walking. I say this as a guy that considers himself to still be a shitty swimmer, but seem to come out near the FOP in the swim in most races. I am about a 1:05 40K TT and 21 minute 5K guy.

And I'll bet that you didn't learn to swim 2 years ago, coming from zero swim background.

This sort of generalization is common for experienced folks. I could make the same comment about cycling or running. A 21 5k for me is so slow that would be a joke for me to race at that speed. Even after a complete layoff for 3 months with zero workouts, it took me 3 workout of under 3 miles each to run under 21 for 5k.

Does that mean it doesn't take any fitness to run a 21 5k? No - it just means I have the background built up in my legs so doing it again is easy. It's so easy for me that I've done a sub-21 5k with a stroller pushing my kid just for fun. That still doesn't mean that because it's easy for me, it should be easy for everyone, and that it's all due to my special running technique. For me to get to this level, I had to train my *** off - sprints, volume, and more sprints. Hurt like hell and no shortcuts.

If your fastest 5k ever was a 30 (and there are many on BT who fall in this category), it'll take a hellacious amount of work to get down to 21.

To say that swimming a sub-24 1.5k is so easy that anyone can do it with zero swim fitness is a load of bull. Sub-24 is near, if not FOP in most Oly races, and likely a better performance than a 21min 5k in a lot of races.

I think you're confusing your natural gifts and/or ability with the reality of the situation. That's the same exact critique I have for Terry Laughlin - it might work for him, but I doubt it works for even a minority. FOP is not commonplace precisely because it takes a combination of technique, talent, and hard work. Or else everyone on BT would be FOP.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 7:58
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Swimming is the only discipline of the 3 in which a former HS swimmer who hasn't seen a pool in 10 years can probably come out and destroy a bunch of triathletes at a masters workout. Why? Because of technique not fitness.

I have a buddy that ran cross country in college just 5 years ago and no longer runs race a 5K with me and couldn't run faster than 8 minute miles. He maybe has only gained about 6lbs since college and used to run low 15 minute 5Ks, but the guy is just plain out of shape.

I question how much you really worked on technique for that year.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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"I know this is anecdotal, but I never swim "extremely hard," let alone on a regular basis, yet swam the USMS 2-mile Cable Swim in 46:20 at age 56, breaking my own USMS 55-59 record. [

That is a 55:41 IM swim pace. Granted, that's a lot faster than I can swim, but a lot slower than many here. How can that be a USMS record?


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Your argument is unconvincing to me. As stated before, I've done similar things with running - because of my HS running background, I can take a huge layoff, but then out and outrun every runner who started training as an adult in the local group in the weekly track workout. But I'm under no illusion it's due to my special technique.

I'm not denying that technique is crucial for swimming - despite your snide remarks, I spent almost 1.5 hours per day, 3-4x/wk on technique last year, with a regular coach (was hella expensive, too!). But I do think that it's overstated, and the example you give is a classic example of such an overstatement.

You are definitely confusing innate ability and background and trying to generalize it as applicable to everyone, when it's clearly not. Just because it's easy me to run a sub-21 5k, for you to swim a sub-24 1500 OWS and easy a bunch of 10 year old swimmers (who often already have 3+ years of serious swimming experience!) to go that fast, doesn't mean that therefore it's all technique requiring no fitness and that EVERYBODY has the ability to do it.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 8:13
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't swim a single length of a long course pool when I started triathlon.

Triathletes are shitty swimmers because they A) have shitty technique and B) because they don't fucking swim in training

Mastering technique requires repitition, repitition requires swimming, but not necessarily "hard" swimming. Let me be clear, I am not an expert, but I don't believe the term "fitness" is sport specific. VO2 is V02, what you can do with that number in a given sport is about economy. I am only evaluating the comments posted, I don't know anything about Terry.

Sub-24 is perhaps better than a sub-21 5k, but both are pretty shitty. The swim is disproportionate in most triathlon distances, so shitty swimmers can get away with it.

shitty is my word of the day.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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limiting myself to the bona fides of gerry rodrigues, and not the merits of anyone's views or comments, i'll also add that gerry is not simply a renowned coach, but, one of the greatest open water swimmers in U.S. history. when gerry admonishes you to emulate great open water swimmers, and he lists them, most of those he lists would have had a very hard time besting gerry in an open water swim, and that includes andy potts and john flanagan.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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 It is true that you can go from being really really bad at swimming to being alot less bad solely on technique improvements and with very litte actual hard training work. And, that is actually all the majority of triathletes are intersted in so in some sense the TI mantra is correct. However, its a complete myth that there is any "free" speed after that. At some point, and that point is not very far up the swimming ladder, you need to work to get faster.

At some point, and it is a point pretty low on the swimming latter, technique and fitness become mirror images of each other. You have to become more fit to exectute proper techinuque at speed and you need proper technique at speed to develop the fitness to execute techinque and on and on in an endless cycle. You do need to TRAIN to get faster, no just mimic ideal movements. You don't train just to get "fit" but your train, in part to get fit enough to execute proper techinique.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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"I know this is anecdotal, but I never swim "extremely hard," let alone on a regular basis, yet swam the USMS 2-mile Cable Swim in 46:20 at age 56, breaking my own USMS 55-59 record. [


That is a 55:41 IM swim pace. Granted, that's a lot faster than I can swim, but a lot slower than many here. How can that be a USMS record?


Maybe I'm looking at something else, but http://www.usms.org/...09/2micblresults.pdf

says that the 55-59 record is 44:35 set in 2008; perhaps Terry set it before that record eclipsed his own. But the record in 2008 was 46:09 set in 2007 http://www.usms.org/...08/2micblresults.pdf (I note that a 55-59 woman went 47:52 that year), when Terry went 46:20. Ah, he broke his own record, but lost to a guy who broke his record by more.

(yeah, I'm a bit bored)

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Swimming is the only discipline of the 3 in which a former HS swimmer who hasn't seen a pool in 10 years can probably come out and destroy a bunch of triathletes at a masters workout. Why? Because of technique not fitness.

I have a buddy that ran cross country in college just 5 years ago and no longer runs race a 5K with me and couldn't run faster than 8 minute miles. He maybe has only gained about 6lbs since college and used to run low 15 minute 5Ks, but the guy is just plain out of shape.

I question how much you really worked on technique for that year.

Crap...on the whole technique and 1:40s being like walking. Ugh..

Your running analogy is interesting. I'm guessing your friend wasn't in any kind of shape(ie low general fitness) and/or hadn't run in in many years plus being old.

I've taken a few breaks from running in my past each of about 5 years. One in my early twenties(college) and one in my early 30s. When I came back in my twenties to running, I ran probably 3 times in training and was still able to bust out sub 6 for an 8K. In my thirties, I could run 6:30ish for an 8K. Of course, each time I was completely trashed. I had fitness in each case.

So does that mean running is all technique or does it mean natural talent(not that I think I ever had that)? So in swimming maybe it could be natural talent and technique?

If I had started swimming when I was 10, perhaps i'd be fast but maybe not. Perhaps, I'm not genetically gifted for swimming.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I am not really trying to convince you and I am not trying to be snide either, but your argument has plenty of holes also. Your coach very well might have sucked. I am not ignoring talent, but it doesn't take talent to swim a 24 or run 21. Talent will get some people to each level faster, but pretty much anyone can do it. I may have more talent than you swimming and you may have more running. But I have never averaged more than 10K/week swimming and 20 miles/week running for a period longer than 6 months. That isn't much at all in either sport.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't swim a single length of a long course pool when I started triathlon.

Triathletes are shitty swimmers because they A) have shitty technique and B) because they don't fucking swim in training

Mastering technique requires repitition, repitition requires swimming, but not necessarily "hard" swimming. Let me be clear, I am not an expert, but I don't believe the term "fitness" is sport specific. VO2 is V02, what you can do with that number in a given sport is about economy. I am only evaluating the comments posted, I don't know anything about Terry.

Sub-24 is perhaps better than a sub-21 5k, but both are pretty shitty. The swim is disproportionate in most triathlon distances, so shitty swimmers can get away with it.

shitty is my word of the day.

And I couldn't run more than 800m when I started running. Doesn't mean squat.

Youre argument that "I don't believe the term"fitness" is sport specific" is also highly suspect. Pretty much everyone on BT knows that you can be an Olympic level swimmer, but if you've never run a single mile in your life, you'll get killed in a 5k running race, and vice versa. It's also the precise reason that most high level coaches ask you to determine your threshold HR zones SPECIFIC TO EACH SPORT.

The only thing I agree with you on (but I agree thoroughly with you on) is that triathletes are lousy swimmers because they don't swim enough. I suspect if most triathletes swam 15k+ (or 50k!) per week like real swimmers, even basic swim technique issues would largely self-resolve.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I guess this is what it boils down to, you don't need to do speed sessions to swim 24 minutes, you just need to swim. I re-read the original posting and do not see where Terry said anything about less swimming....he simply doesn't advocate intense swimming. Is this really a surprise or any different than running? My technique sessions are anywhere from 2500 to 3000 yards, they are still yards.

Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?

I still believe "fitness" (as defined by V02) is an absolute measure.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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That is a 55:41 IM swim pace. Granted, that's a lot faster than I can swim, but a lot slower than many here. How can that be a USMS record?

Because no one does those swims. Like you said it is not bad for a guy his age, but I'm pretty sure I could break it next year when I enter the AG, and there are a lot of guys my age that are faster than me. I would expect that Dave Scott could still do a 51minute Ironman swim at 57 from what I hear about his swim workouts there in Boulder..

To Rappstars point, Gerry R is the real deal when it comes to triathlon and OW swimming. He did not brag about some obscure time that he did, but I will tell you that in his late 40's he still goes 4:50+ in the 500SCY free. He is usuallly in the top 5 of most OW races overall, and he coached one of the premier masters squads for many, many years at UCLA. He has moved his focus to the OW now, and I would imagine there is no better blended pool/OW swim coach out there coaching on a daily basis. And I think you will find that a lot of what Gary Hall SR. is talking about will also fall into Gerry's camp. And speaking of Gary Hall, he is around the same age as Terry and I'm sure he would mop him up in any swim too. I saw him a few years ago at masters nationals, and in the 55+ AG I think he did a 56 or 57 100fly. Guaranteed that did not come from training easy all day..

I throw Terry into that group that think there is one diet/.supplement for everyone, or that there is a single way for most to train, into the garbage heap. Anyone that cannot get past the fact that human bodies are different, respond differently to the same stimulus, recover at different rates, have varying physiologies that are pre destined to be good at different distances, climate variations, and course conditions, does not deserve our attention. Unfortunately for Terry, he makes a couple good points, but when he spouts this other bullshit about going easy and long all day, they get thrown into the crazy pile with the rest of his garbage. It is the slam position for swimming, and like that old dinosaur of tri bike fitting it will be debunked and fall into the history of triathlon snake oil vendors...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I am not really trying to convince you and I am not trying to be snide either, but your argument has plenty of holes also. Your coach very well might have sucked. I am not ignoring talent, but it doesn't take talent to swim a 24 or run 21. Talent will get some people to each level faster, but pretty much anyone can do it. I may have more talent than you swimming and you may have more running. But I have never averaged more than 10K/week swimming and 20 miles/week running for a period longer than 6 months. That isn't much at all in either sport.

And I can thoroughly debunk you here as well. I've trained with numerous local community track groups over my 20 years of running..

A 21:00 5k is certainly not "fast" (it's downright slow for a junior HS mens x-country team, and here on ST, it's considered slower-than-conversationa pace for sure!) but for the person of average ability (compared to general populace), particularly one that started run training on zero background as an adult over 35, it's fast.

In fact, it's fast enough that it's actually unusual for me to find triathletes who do their first run training of their life at age 35+ (or even 30+) to run 21 min 5ks. Even with years of serious training after they start.

A 21 min 5k is fast enough to win the womens AG divisions in a lot of local 5ks. Even here in LA, where you'll see thousands of weekend marathon runners and other serious runners on the weekend training hard. You won't convince me that all these ladies are simply slacking in their workouts - far more likely is that you do require some degree of ability to run a 21:00 5k.

And on the point of speed - you HAVE to run faster and swim faster to get faster. This is indisputable. Anyone who tells you that you can get faster without working hard is full of it. Every single running program training for the 5k has hard intervals built into it. Even for rank beginners (albeit less of them.)

Almost all swim coaches, and especially the good ones (with the exception of Terry) also advocate swimming fast sets to get faster in swimming. I haven't come across a single truly fast swimmer yet who said you could get fast without fast swimming. The posts by the strong swimmers above completely confirm this.

Your posts have really lost any sort of credibility for me, and likely others.

Nuff said. Out.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 8:48
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base??

You guys have taken the liberty to bash the guy which is fine, but why not offer a few professional rebuttals in the process.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty - tell us what you really think!

Thanks...

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base?? \\

Well Gerry told you that the stroke rate is waaaay out of line, others of us have said that you cannot base a sound training plan on just easy swimming. Those are two really big things right there. Just like crank lenghts are getting shorter, the trend in swimming is to be taking more strokes, not less. Terry has been around a long time, and he has a lot invested in a technique that goes against the grain, and he is fighting to keep it relevant. Besides crank lenghts, in running there is a big push now for minimalist shoes, or even barefoot running. If you are going to survive in this industry, you have to adapt to the times and new technologies and studies. You have to listen to the pros who are on the front line doing things long before they become mainstream. That is the beauty of this site, you all get a peak in advance from some of the stuff that won't make it into any books for 5 to 10 years. Change can be good, and it is often inevitable. You see I have a long history and a somewhat intact memory, so I can recall many, many, changes that were fought and stubbornly held onto. I remember when the first clipless pedals, or aero bars came out and the cyclists poo pooed them as a triathlete fad that would die in a year or two. this sport is littered with that kind of stuff, and in just about every case I can remember, those that do not adapt, eventually die... Does Terry sound like an adaptive, open mined guy to you??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base??

You guys have taken the liberty to bash the guy which is fine, but why not offer a few professional rebuttals in the process.


Not a swim guru although I do better than your arbirtrary 1.5K swim benchmark, but no one is really disputing the benefits of good technique and that T.I. teaches excellent form and technique. What is in question is should technique drivebn training be 100% of time spent in the pool or is there also utility to doing pace based work as well. Certainly after a swimmer becomes proficient enough to swim in the 1:20-1:25/100 range consistently, they need to apply physiological stress to make fitness gains as well. T.I. focuses so much on strokes per lap it never allows for pace per lap, and I think that's a mistake.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base??

You guys have taken the liberty to bash the guy which is fine, but why not offer a few professional rebuttals in the process.


Terry is generally not only off base, but not even in the ballpark.

Something that sometimes gets lost in this recurrent debate is the concept of what constitutes "good technique." Terry's philosophies are not good technique for fast swimming.

Gerry's comment about stroke rate was very insightful. It's something that Hayley Peirsol worked on constantly as a teenager and coincided with her rise from mediocre age group swimmer to a World Championship medalist.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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I guess this is what it boils down to, you don't need to do speed sessions to swim 24 minutes, you just need to swim. I re-read the original posting and do not see where Terry said anything about less swimming....he simply doesn't advocate intense swimming. Is this really a surprise or any different than running? My technique sessions are anywhere from 2500 to 3000 yards, they are still yards.

Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?

I still believe "fitness" (as defined by V02) is an absolute measure.


Run training and swim training is not an apples-to-apples comparison. There's a level of injury risk in intense running that's just not there in intense swimming.

A hard 200 in the pool and a hard 800m on the track take me roughly the same amount of time. I could bang out hard 200's in pool every single day and be just fine. If I tried that with 800's on the track I'd be crippled.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.


Not to mention that most of slowtwitch posts over there but acts like they above all of the people on BT. Rolls eyes.

ding ding ding

and they still at least are consistent with their pulling of posts, warnings and banning.
cannot say that about some sites....and if this site is so thick skinned then why have people been banned here?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty much in your boat.

I am getting much better on the bike quickly and for some reason the run is coming very easily - i.e. will likley go sub 19:00 5k or sub 39:00 10k by the end of the season on 30 km / week of run training.

It is strange, because similar to the swimmers that suggest they don't see how people can swim so slow, I can't really see how running can be as hard for people or that you need 50, 60, 70 + mpw to get to certain times...

Put me in a pool and I am like the little dog your dad (or friend's dad) throws in the pool each year at the family barbecue for fun - Horrible!!!

I believe my 1.5 km times in Oly last year were 37:39 and 34:43....Does that count as swimming.

That said, I had a fear of the water, didn't train it hard and it showed.

This November I took a TI like course and I think it will help me - I haven't been swimming enough (still fear it a little) but am picking it up. The biggest thing that it helped me with was comfort in the water (somewhat) and body positioning...That said, when I go to the Masters workout, I do the workouts the coach says, on the times he says, with the technique he suggests, which is closer to what Gary Hall Sr. was suggesting than TI, so we'll see what happens this season.

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holy shit.....I don't really subscribe to the TI methods, but this thread is hilarious.

So, a bunch of "triathletes" that can ride a 40K in 1:00 and run a 5K in 18:00, but cannot swim for shit think their limiter is fitness??

If you cannot swim a 1.5K in under 24 minutes you need SERIOUS help with technique.


Actually, I fall into that category. (Oly 5k about 19:xx and bike spilt about 1:03xx. Swim = terrible!)

I learned to swim 2 years ago. Zero swim background. Spent an entire year on technique and nothing but technique, and only started working hard recently.

I'm sure I have some technique problems, but I've been going to a good masters program of late, and the good coach there (locally respected) agrees that at this point, I'll only make minor gains with technique. Definitely nothing like 20-30sec/100 off.

It all comes down to background. I've been running for over 15 years, and ran 8 marathons, two under sub-3. Add my genetic big legs, and it's no surprise that I can run/bike at a respectable clip.

But on swimming, the limiter is clearly my swim-related endurance and power. There simply aren't enough capillaries built up in my swim muscles to function efficiently, and I can feel it. Even though my cardio might be capable of a good bike/run, my arms/lats/back are weak, and force my heart to pump super hard just to keep up. It feels exactly as I do when I do a one-legged bike drill - HR will still spike extremely high since your heart is trying to pump more blood through your entire body to supply a fast-fatiguing area.

It took me years to go from a 25min 5k to a sub-18, and a huge amount of work. (I'm not one of the gifted ones who did it with <35mpw). There's no reason to believe that it won't take similar work to get similarly fast in swimming, years, possibly.

If you doubt this is true, consider the fact that at least two guys in our local tri club who started triathlon several years ago (earlier than me) nearly qualified for the Olympics in swimming in their prime but aren't even close to FOP on the bike/run despite focusing on bike/run now. (Granted, they are almost definitely not training as hard as they did on their swim days, but still, point remains.) Swim fitness and run fitness do not necessarily overlap.

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Chrissie wins because she trains really f'ing hard and races really f'ing hard and was blessed with a huge f'ing motor" Jordan Rapp
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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By all accounts this TI guy has taken 10's of thousands of adults that would have died if throw in the deep end of the pool and transformed them to be swimmers. That's a *real* enough coach for me.

As a former swimmer I don't need his services, but I realize teaching people to swim is a passion and he seems to have a passion for teaching, at least for the stuff i've seen and read. Just like the coach who works with newbie's at TNT stuff vs a pro's coach - they're still a coach.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [running2far] [ In reply to ]
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By all accounts this TI guy has taken 10's of thousands of adults that would have died if throw in the deep end of the pool and transformed them to be swimmers. //

No doubt, and he should stick to that and stay out of the performance end of swimming..I think that is the primary beef with him..
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [brentl] [ In reply to ]
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I'll agree that Terry doesn't tell the full tale on good technique. TI is wonderful for getting the hips up and introducing swimmers to the idea of putting body roll into a swim but starts to break down after that.

I can think of at least three total 'flags' from the video posted here of late to swimming types that have gone through TI but who haven't ventured into the fish world here yet. (slowing on the glide because they can't kick like Thorpe, not using body roll to extend the arms on the catch, keeping the recovery more relaxed by letting the lats drive the bus) And two of those are actually making you do unnecessary work despite the goal of effortless swimming.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base??

You guys have taken the liberty to bash the guy which is fine, but why not offer a few professional rebuttals in the process.


Not a swim guru although I do better than your arbirtrary 1.5K swim benchmark, but no one is really disputing the benefits of good technique and that T.I. teaches excellent form and technique. What is in question is should technique drivebn training be 100% of time spent in the pool or is there also utility to doing pace based work as well. Certainly after a swimmer becomes proficient enough to swim in the 1:20-1:25/100 range consistently, they need to apply physiological stress to make fitness gains as well. T.I. focuses so much on strokes per lap it never allows for pace per lap, and I think that's a mistake.


Yes, my benchmark swim was arbitrary, I think I read that on this site somewhere, but it is arbitrary for sure. I generally agree with what you are saying, but you do realize how few people doing triathlons can actually swim 1:20-1:25/100?

Does 1:40/100 really require any "fitness"? It seems to me that Terry is focusing on getting people into the water and making it through the swim alive, not getting people to the Olympics. Further (and this isn't directed at you Bryancd) for people to sit on this board and suggest that he is bad coach because he isn't all that "great" of a swimmer himself is absurd. There are hundreds of posts by well respected posters that dispute the myth that one, must be or have been, a great athlete to be a great coach. Isn't that the genious of Paulo?? If your problem is the fact that he is exploiting his "mediocre" skills for personal gain....I gotta say tough shit. If you have superior knowledge and a better record as an athlete, take a fucking business class and make some money, it just sounds a bit like sour grapes I guess. I expected more from some of the folks here.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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By all accounts this TI guy has taken 10's of thousands of adults that would have died if throw in the deep end of the pool and transformed them to be swimmers. //

No doubt, and he should stick to that and stay out of the performance end of swimming..I think that is the primary beef with him..


Fair enough, I can understand that and I guess I haven't followed him enough to hear him talk about the "performance end". I don't know where your definition of "performance end" begins, but the comments in the OP came off of BT and were meant to be read by non-performance end swimmers.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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[replyYes, my benchmark swim was arbitrary, I think I read that on this site somewhere, but it is arbitrary for sure. I generally agree with what you are saying, but you do realize how few people doing triathlons can actually swim 1:20-1:25/100?

Does 1:40/100 really require any "fitness"? It seems to me that Terry is focusing on getting people into the water and making it through the swim alive, not getting people to the Olympics. Further (and this isn't directed at you Bryancd) for people to sit on this board and suggest that he is bad coach because he isn't all that "great" of a swimmer himself is absurd. There are hundreds of posts by well respected posters that dispute the myth that one, must be or have been, a great athlete to be a great coach. Isn't that the genious of Paulo?? If your problem is the fact that he is exploiting his "mediocre" skills for personal gain....I gotta say tough shit. If you have superior knowledge and a better record as an athlete, take a fucking business class and make some money, it just sounds a bit like sour grapes I guess. I expected more from some of the folks here.[/reply]

I agree 100% that T.I. is and has been a great tool to get people swimming, improve upon their swimming, and completing the swim in their triathlon races. To be fair, it was Terry himself who brought up his race results int he BT thread.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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My point is him bringing up his results is nothing more than a marketing tool. If people are buying it, its because A) the people buying it are naive B) there isn't anyone else that effectively markets themselves to the masses better. Neither of those scenarios are something the guy should be chastised for. Just sayin....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Swimming is the only discipline of the 3 in which a former HS swimmer who hasn't seen a pool in 10 years can probably come out and destroy a bunch of triathletes at a masters workout.

My brother never runs, he would even never walk to the supermarket or so. He is cyclist and really believes that any kind of walking/running is bad for the legs (common believe among european cyclists). So after his race season he goes from no walking/running to running an 5.2 k, and his time is 21 minutes. 21 minutes is really incredibly slow.

In swimming you also need way more intensity training, then in cycling and running. If you apply the rules of running on swimmers you gonna create a bunch of total immersed slow guys. You need to crank up the intensity to levels way beyond what you do for run training. Same applies the other way around, if you let runners run intervals like the swimmers swim, you create a bunch of injured runners. Does not work either.

Also i must always laugh about these technique stuff and 24 mins 1500. I never did any technique, and without a background in swimming i went to 24 mins in 5 months. I almost always did one set. 5*200 m fast as possible with a few sprints afterwards. No TI or book needed. From then on i joined some triathlon swim training. And i went backwards straight away with all those drills. I know n=1, i know what the good pros wrote in this thread, i know what a good coach wrote here. There is still a market for guys promoting bull shit for lots of dollars. In triathlon it is almost like the more you ask for your books and dvd the more you sell. Weird world, cause none of these things made one champion or decent swimmer. Not a single one.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't call you N=1 but more of the 10-15% of the people who will naturally have a 'feel for the water' and can intuitively pick up on how to move through it. And who then have issues with drills because they're suddenly having to try to explain how they're doing it right when they just instinctively know how to put all the pieces together.

If my college coach ever had to do some sort of 'race for a prize' contest, he used to make us do sculling races because they were an equalizer of sorts- your speed going full stroke didn't necessarily relate much to how well you could do sculling drills, and I could beat guys who were 10 seconds/100 faster than me full stroke on scull drills.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Agree 100%.

Once a swimmer overcomes the fear of drowning they have outgrown the TI approach - IMHO.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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I never suggested you had to subscribe to TI drills and technique philosophy, but I have yet to meet a swim coach that didn't actively advocate technique on a daily basis much much more than running or riding coaches do. BTW - maybe your technique isn't all that bad to begin with.

I also agreed with you that 21 minutes is incredibly slow, so is a 24 minute 1500m swim. I am not sure what the points are in your post...at least where theyiffer from mine??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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naturally have a 'feel for the water' and can intuitively pick up on how to move through it.

stover and i have termed that "kinesthetic sensitivity"

one's ability to understand their body's place in time and space


36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Further (and this isn't directed at you Bryancd) for people to sit on this board and suggest that he is bad coach because he isn't all that "great" of a swimmer himself is absurd. There are hundreds of posts by well respected posters that dispute the myth that one, must be or have been, a great athlete to be a great coach.//

I agree with you, Terry was the one bringing up his N=1 results to give his methods some credibility. I just threw out some times and results of folks to fly in the face of the ridiculous assumption that a coaches results somehow make them a better coach. Under his(Terry's) marketing methods, he would be at the bottom of the heap, not the top like he likes to promote. That is all I was saying.. ABout Paulo, that is a can of worms I will steer clear of..(-;

And to what I think is a competitive swimmer that needs further instruction beyond the basic learning how to swim, I would say once you can repeat around 2 minutes per 100SCY on your distance swims, you are there. I think that includes a lot of triathletes, probably most.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty.....and other swim gurus, are the comments posted in the OP by Terry really off base?? \\

Well Gerry told you that the stroke rate is waaaay out of line, others of us have said that you cannot base a sound training plan on just easy swimming. Those are two really big things right there. Just like crank lenghts are getting shorter, the trend in swimming is to be taking more strokes, not less. Terry has been around a long time, and he has a lot invested in a technique that goes against the grain, and he is fighting to keep it relevant. Besides crank lenghts, in running there is a big push now for minimalist shoes, or even barefoot running. If you are going to survive in this industry, you have to adapt to the times and new technologies and studies. You have to listen to the pros who are on the front line doing things long before they become mainstream. That is the beauty of this site, you all get a peak in advance from some of the stuff that won't make it into any books for 5 to 10 years. Change can be good, and it is often inevitable. You see I have a long history and a somewhat intact memory, so I can recall many, many, changes that were fought and stubbornly held onto. I remember when the first clipless pedals, or aero bars came out and the cyclists poo pooed them as a triathlete fad that would die in a year or two. this sport is littered with that kind of stuff, and in just about every case I can remember, those that do not adapt, eventually die... Does Terry sound like an adaptive, open mined guy to you??
I just loved some of your points. However, I think the issue has more to where should the triathlete spend his limited amount of time, improving technique or hammering away trying to get faster with bad technique. In both instances the athlete will get faster. The question is which is the better approach and which athlete is more likely to get injured. Just because someone has a business doing something is not particularly strong evidence that what they are doing is bad. I happen to think that technique matters - big time - in all three disciplines. Gary Hall Sr. has posted some myth busting posts, not one of which has talked about effort but have rather been all about technique. Ignore technique at your competitive peril.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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And to what I think is a competitive swimmer that needs further instruction beyond the basic learning how to swim, I would say once you can repeat around 2 minutes per 100SCY on your distance swims, you are there. I think that includes a lot of triathletes, probably most.


Wow, that's more generous than I would have thought, but I would definitely defer to your judgment. Glorious day, I have made it to peformance swimmer status....actually I did about 7 years ago...but I feel legitimized now :)

Now about that running.....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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I have studied and researched open water swimming for decades and have coached American open water medalists at several world swimming championships. In addition to testing and analyzing some of the world's best pool and open water swimmers, I have tested both Gerry Rodrigues and Terry Laughlin using the same methodology (www.swimetrics.com) on various technical aspects of open water swimming, from drafting to dolphining, from swimming at a slower pace to race pace.

When I objectively analyzed the different techniques of swimmers, ranging from world champions like Gerry and Olympic gold medalists, to adult swimmers like Terry and beginner triathletes, certain conclusions can by drawn.

The easiest conclusion drawn in these tests and analyses is that technique improvement can help us all dramatically increase our speed and efficiency. This is why I test swimmers like Gerry and Terry at different speeds and in different positions (i.e., swimming solo, drafting behind a person's feet, drafting at the hips of two swimmers, pulling, swimming with a 6-beat kick, etc.). Learning the precise points in their strokes where they generate propulsion and create drag is fascinating and enlightening.

But the most optimal techniques in the open water can vary depending on the conditions of the swim: cold vs. warm, calm vs. rough, swimming with no marine life vs. swimming in jellyfish blooms, swimming with lateral currents vs. against oncoming currents, competing in a short pier-to-pier swim vs. doing a channel swim. It also depends on one's goals: just to finish or to compete and win.

As was suggested above, the kick, position of the head while breathing and arm tempo should all slightly vary depending on the conditions of the race/event. In my opinion, it is a knowledgeable and experienced open water coach who informs and teaches these different techniques, tactics and training methodologies. There are multiple techniques and tactics that can and should be replicated in the pool in order to be best prepared for triathlons or open water swims - no matter what your level of experience or ability is.

It is precisely these subtle and incredibly important techniques, tactics and training methodologies that Gerry and the greatest collection of open water swimmers and coaches will share at the upcoming Global Open Water Swimming Conference in Long Beach, California on June 5th. As part of this Conference where many of the world's greatest and most accomplished swimmers will make presentations, Gerry, 7-time world professional marathon swimming champion Shelley Taylor-Smith and several Olympic coaches will analyze the swimming technique and race tactics of the 2010 USA Swimming National Open Water Swimming Championship athletes who will race 10K in Long Beach on June 4th. Close-up videos of these athletes will be very enlightening, especially as they shift gears and change techniques and tactics throughout the 2-hour race.

While we may not be as fast or experienced as these elite swimmers who are flying in from 14 countries, we can all learn something from them.

http://www.wowsa.org
http://www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Can't the FBI and ATF just raid the TI compound and end all this nonsense?

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Let me be clear, I am not an expert, but I don't believe the term "fitness" is sport specific. VO2 is V02, what you can do with that number in a given sport is about economy. I am only evaluating the comments posted, I don't know anything about Terry.

Regardless of what YOU think, fitness IS sport specific [Vo2 is sport specific.]

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [trexleradam] [ In reply to ]
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The thing that really bugs me about TI is that it's easier to have better, not worse, technique when you're swimming near-all out. Last time I did a swim focus, my best technique started to come when I incorporated sets of 25s at very high intensity, thinking about technique, though. Good technique and lolly-gagging is a contradiction in terms.

I agree with this, but if we tell most triathletes this they will start flailing their arms like a windmill while they try to swim fast.

Once you're a good swimmer, then it's easy to swim fast, with good technique.

Chicken and egg conundrum do you think?

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?

I still believe "fitness" (as defined by V02) is an absolute measure.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but:

SWIMMING AND RUNNING ARE TWO DIFFERENT SPORTS. What works for one (running) may not (and doesn't, actually) work for the other. Running is a lot of pounding; it has a long recovery; it has eccentric muscle contractions while swimming has concentric ones but no eccentric; thus you cannot train the same way.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Chicken and egg conundrum do you think?

It is, but that is why you have to do both, work on technique and train hard. Technique IS fitness. Its the myth that you can get good technique without hammering yourself that is what holds back many triathletes.

I started swimming at 12 which is late by swimming standards but it means I was old enough to be very aware of what was going on during those first few years when I was developing my swimming techinique and i had just enough knowledge to have some understanding of what was going on. That plus some serious study, my own experience as a coach and having watched the swimming "careers" of 100s of kids from start to finish, I have a pretty good feel for how one gets faster at swimming.

It is true that swimmers get faster because their techique gets better but technique only gets better through a circular system of getting stronger, gaining better techinque as a result which resulted in being able to train harder with that better technique, then that technique improved as a result of the increase in training level and so on. Swimmers get fast by training hard AND working on techinique. Just working on techique alone without some hard work will not produce much in the way of results.

It is a chicken and egg thing. The problem is many triathletes only want eggs but hate chickens.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I just loved some of your points. However, I think the issue has more to where should the triathlete spend his limited amount of time, improving technique or hammering away trying to get faster with bad technique.\\

Time management is a whole other topic Frank, let's not muddy this narrow topic here with tangents that could go on forever.. And where did I say that technique was not important? It is not either or, but I think we are debating on which technique is more optimal for getting faster. I agree that it is best to figure out your best stroke technique so as not to waste too much of your time. There is no rule that you cannot work hard too in the meantime, while you are perfecting that stroke. Hell, I'm even making changes this late in my career, would have been a lonely one for me down in lane 5, swimming 1;40 hundreds all day if I had to wait until I had the perfect stroke before I could swim hard and fast...(-;
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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here is an extrach from a note I wrote within a discussion several months ago.....it may help clarify some things.

"To my knowledge, no good swimmers that I'm aware of race at low stroke rates of 55/min, and none train at 110 HR other than warm-up. I have coached for 27 years and raced open water quite successfully for 38 years with over 400 races under my belt as an athlete. Although there may be many alternative ways to prepare, none of my successes or anyone I know came from training that way.

The pro 10k race in Brazil last December saw an elite field of ten athletes managing the pace with a stroke rate range of between 76-82. When the break was made at the 7k mark, eventual winner, Trent Grimsley, went to a stroke rate of nearing 100/minute with a strong 6BK. The chase pack then ignited their rates to 84-92 with an increase to a 6BK. They were unable to catch him. They all largely held those rates for the final 3k.

I think much of this stroke rate confusion comes from the elegance and easy swimming taught by TI and others about total front quadrant swimming and massive rotation; this slows stroke rate, especially at the slower swimmer level, and those with weak or non-existant kicks. Also, to the swimmer without an extensive competitive background, which is the majority, they tend to misunderstand or be misled visually when watching great swimmers race. They see long, elegant, and sleek strokes above the water, being deceived by the rate of turnover (hand velocity) beneath the water, and the power/watts generated. That underwater stroke rate is what mystifies that observer as the arm velocity is significant relative to an average lap swimmer or aspiring triathlete, which is much of the TI audience to my understanding.

Stroke rates are critical to very fast swimming in open water – no matter what the age or level of competition. Train to get to those rates if you want to be competitive.

If Terry and others are not interested in fast swimming or in being the best they can be competitively, then rates in the 40s-60s are fine, comfortable, and enjoyable, but those rates in open water won't cut it to be competitive, or in producing ones optimal results. Those rates are good for leisure open water camps etc.One needs different gears: 55 rates, then 65 and 75 and 85 RPM etc. if they wish to be competitively successful in open water.

I'd also be pretty hard-pressed to believe any of the athletes that raced the Brazil 10k had heart rates of 110 at any point during their race. There is no substitute for hard work and deliberate, effective specific training. These modern 10k events call for just that, while it is equally true for all the 1- and 2-mile races and triathlon swim legs around the world. These athletes have to be able to accelerate and slow down, position themselves, and create boxed-in positions on others, thus requiring various stroke rate capabilities and heart rate changes. This is the Tour de France in the aquatic world. They need to practice all of this, and they do.....at least the ones who win consistently. Other than guys like Fran Crippen and Andrew Gemmell, medalists in the 2009 World Swimming Championships, who got up in the high 80s SPM with a corresponding fast-beat kick, many Americans still have a way to go.

Even for the audience that TI teaches: quite a bit of triathletes; their stroke rates are still too low from this coaches perspective. TI and Terry were, and are, tremendous assets to our sport, making contribution that are immeasurable. Many are grateful to them, especially me for what I have learned.

I recall when Terry sat in my office when I was co-publisher of Swimming World, SWIM, and Swimming Technique magazines, discussing his TI concept, I stated to him then as I do here: TI has its place in the sport…TI is a great business model, I applaud Terry on his very successful business acumen: teach the ABC, 1,2,3 of swimming. Their place in the sport is important and has been significant, it's just not "the" sport – especially at the most competitive ends of the spectrum, and even more specifically in dynamic open water racing.

Furthermore, trying to utilize pool athletes such as Popov's stroke count, rather than stroke rate, in a 50 free or the others such as Hackett, Thorpe, Phelps, Mellouli does not help the point. Taking a watch to their strokes over 15 sec., their stroke rates will usually run upward of 76-82 a minute and approaching almost 108/min for Popov in the 50 (Popov swam his world records 50 in 21.6 in 31 strokes, but over 100 stroke rate) and 96/min for Lezak in his recent Olympic relay swim. Please do not confuse the number of strokes in a length with stroke rate.

For open water, variable stroke rates in training is very important, as are variable heart rates, and intensity."

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm....if you are feeling motivated I would like more clarity on that point. In absolute terms, are you suggesting that it is possible for Lance Armstrong to have a V02max of 85 for cycling, but only 35 for running??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm....if you are feeling motivated I would like more clarity on that point. In absolute terms, are you suggesting that it is possible for Lance Armstrong to have a V02max of 85 for cycling, but only 35 for running??

It is possible (though his Vo2 max for running, in real life, is higher than 35 - we could guestimate it based on his marathon times). Exercise physiology books will support this fact.

Vo2 max tests are commonly done as a treadmill test. If you (or I, or anyone else) did one on a bike, and one on a treadmill, you would have different results.

FITNESS IS SPORT SPECIFIC.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
hmmm....if you are feeling motivated I would like more clarity on that point. In absolute terms, are you suggesting that it is possible for Lance Armstrong to have a V02max of 85 for cycling, but only 35 for running??


It is possible (though his Vo2 max for running, in real life, is higher than 35 - we could guestimate it based on his marathon times). Exercise physiology books will support this fact.

Vo2 max tests are commonly done as a treadmill test. If you (or I, or anyone else) did one on a bike, and one on a treadmill, you would have different results.

FITNESS IS SPORT SPECIFIC.


That's true, I have done both treadmill and bike VO2 tests and they have different results. But I think VO2 isn't a very good metric for "fitness" it's more a "fitness potential" marker. I think LT tests would be a better gauge although I couldn't see how you could do that in a pool without bleeding into the water. :)

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Last edited by: Bryancd: May 19, 10 11:02
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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is there a lot of blood with those? I thought it was just a quick finger prick.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but you are talking about micro changes, not macro changes. I don't believe it is possible for someone to have that significant of a change in V02 from one activity to another.

That being said, I believe I erroneously confused genetic ability with fitness, so I understand your point and appreciate the clarity.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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is there a lot of blood with those? I thought it was just a quick finger prick.


...but there are a lot of finger pricks. :)

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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After reading all this TI bashing I guess that take away is that titanium bikes are slower.

Wait.....I think I'm confused.


--Chris
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but you are talking about micro changes, not macro changes. I don't believe it is possible for someone to have that significant of a change in V02 from one activity to another.

You can "believe" whatever you want. Literature will contradict you. A trained cyclist will have a higher vo2 reading on a cycling tests and a lower reading on a running test; a runner will have a lower reading on a cycling test and a higher one on a treadmill test. What will those differences be? I don't know.

maybe BrianCD will post numbers for you (but those would be HIS, and he is trained in cycling and running methinks)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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do you mind sharing your numbers from bike v run vo2? curious tiger-cat

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Popov swam his world records 50 in 21.6 in 31 strokes, but over 100 stroke rate

21.6sec @ 31strokes = 86strokes/minute ????

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I just loved some of your points. However, I think the issue has more to where should the triathlete spend his limited amount of time, improving technique or hammering away trying to get faster with bad technique.\\

Time management is a whole other topic Frank, let's not muddy this narrow topic here with tangents that could go on forever.. And where did I say that technique was not important? It is not either or, but I think we are debating on which technique is more optimal for getting faster. I agree that it is best to figure out your best stroke technique so as not to waste too much of your time. There is no rule that you cannot work hard too in the meantime, while you are perfecting that stroke. Hell, I'm even making changes this late in my career, would have been a lonely one for me down in lane 5, swimming 1;40 hundreds all day if I had to wait until I had the perfect stroke before I could swim hard and fast...(-;
But, I think time management is the crux of Terry's argument, especially for triathletes where is is saying swimming can be used for recovery, so the effort can be put on the more important aspects of the sport, cycling and running. It is all about time management. Where is the biggest bang for the buck? He is not necessarily advocating this approach for those trying to get to the Olympics in swimming. He is advocating it for the vast majority of athletes who have jobs, families, and limited training time.

I hate to drag PowerCranks into the argument but we see this all the time. People (especially elites) are afraid to take the time to learn the technique because they see their mileage dropping and are afraid they will lose fitness. They feel they have to hammer essentially all the time to get better and it is not reasonable to take time to perfect the technique before getting back to hammering. It is like learning to play the piano, you should start with the basics before you advance to the hard stuff if you really want to get good. Yes, people can improve using bad technique but that is not evidence that approach is optimal over other approaches. It is reasonable to debate these issues.

The only way to know which way is truly better is for someone to do a study? Even that may not answer the question depending upon how it is conducted. I won't hold my breath this will ever happen so I suspect this debate will continue.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Corn] [ In reply to ]
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be careful taking things from sprint swimming, and making them tri (ie, distance)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
Last edited by: tigerchik: May 19, 10 11:28
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Corn] [ In reply to ]
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Popov swam his world records 50 in 21.6 in 31 strokes, but over 100 stroke rate

21.6sec @ 31strokes = 86strokes/minute ????


21.6s includes start and underwater portion so 31 strokes is over a shorter time hence the rate over 100
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but you are talking about micro changes, not macro changes. I don't believe it is possible for someone to have that significant of a change in V02 from one activity to another.

That being said, I believe I erroneously confused genetic ability with fitness, so I understand your point and appreciate the clarity.
Sure it is. VO2 simply reflects the amount of muscle mass that is exercising aerobically. I can assure you that DevPaul has a totally different VO2 when XC skiing than when cycling or running or swimming.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Corn] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Corn: there is a dive and underwater momentum before the breakout for actuall swimming. His rate was around 110/min.

Some sprinters train for rates close to 120/min. Distance swimmers at rates of around 80-100/min. In open water, one needs an arsenel of rates for the dynamic environment.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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do you mind sharing your numbers from bike v run vo2? curious tiger-cat


Oh, no. I did the bike/run back in 2006 when I first started training for triathlon and will have to check my srtuff at home what the numbers were. Ever since I have only done treadmill and the last time last year it was 74.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

I think much of this stroke rate confusion comes from the elegance and easy swimming taught by TI and others about total front quadrant swimming and massive rotation; this slows stroke rate, especially at the slower swimmer level, and those with weak or non-existant kicks. Also, to the swimmer without an extensive competitive background, which is the majority, they tend to misunderstand or be misled visually when watching great swimmers race. They see long, elegant, and sleek strokes above the water, being deceived by the rate of turnover (hand velocity) beneath the water, and the power/watts generated. That underwater stroke rate is what mystifies that observer as the arm velocity is significant relative to an average lap swimmer or aspiring triathlete, which is much of the TI audience to my understanding.

And that goes doubly so when it comes to kick. Go to any decent USS team practice in America and watch the senior group do a 500-1000 'recovery' kick set. The swimmers feet are barely moving; heart rates are low enough that the 14 year old girls can go two abreast and gossip loudly about that cute boy in Geometry class. By any visual measure, they're a bunch of light and ineffective kickers who are just barely getting themselves across the pool.

And then you look over at the pace clock, and notice that their kick technique is both so subtle and excellent that they're holding 1:30s on a 1:40/100 sendoff time even though it seems like they're putting no effort or movement into the kick at all.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

I think much of this stroke rate confusion comes from the elegance and easy swimming taught by TI and others about total front quadrant swimming and massive rotation; this slows stroke rate, especially at the slower swimmer level, and those with weak or non-existant kicks. Also, to the swimmer without an extensive competitive background, which is the majority, they tend to misunderstand or be misled visually when watching great swimmers race. They see long, elegant, and sleek strokes above the water, being deceived by the rate of turnover (hand velocity) beneath the water, and the power/watts generated. That underwater stroke rate is what mystifies that observer as the arm velocity is significant relative to an average lap swimmer or aspiring triathlete, which is much of the TI audience to my understanding.


And that goes doubly so when it comes to kick. Go to any decent USS team practice in America and watch the senior group do a 500-1000 'recovery' kick set. The swimmers feet are barely moving; heart rates are low enough that the 14 year old girls can go two abreast and gossip loudly about that cute boy in Geometry class. By any visual measure, they're a bunch of light and ineffective kickers who are just barely getting themselves across the pool.

And then you look over at the pace clock, and notice that their kick technique is both so subtle and excellent that they're holding 1:30s on a 1:40/100 sendoff time even though it seems like they're putting no effort or movement into the kick at all.

i had the opportunity to swim "with" (in the same pool) as the local varsity squad. It was truly embarrassing that they were doing their kick sets faster than I was swimming. And like you say, it was effortless.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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"I can tell you what definitely works for a beginner like me to get a lot faster, though. Swim 15,000k per week. For months. That DEFINITELY works, and is absolutely indisputable."

I've had periods when because of injury I couldn't run and my bike mileage was limited, so I increased my swim volume. Yes, I got noticeably faster in the water (although I was still dreadfully slow relative to most here). But I didn't retain the improvement in speed when my volume in all three sports returned to normal. In my mind that seemed to beg the question: Did I really get faster because I was becoming a better swimmer, or was it because I wasn't so energy-depleted during those periods from running and cycling?

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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"That is a 55:41 IM swim pace. Granted, that's a lot faster than I can swim, but a lot slower than many here. How can that be a USMS record?"

Are USMS swims draft-legal?

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Rob C in FL] [ In reply to ]
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I would guess a little of both: fatigue from other sports can carry over to swimming, tired legs are no fun for kicking

you probably DID get faster, then didn't swim enough to keep it.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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What I was trying to do was discuss fitness while being careful not to confuse genetic talent with fitness and I agreed with you by the way. But that being said everything I have read measures V02max is a general number. It can be attained using a number of testing protocols, most commonly the bike or treadmill test, however I suspect some genious will come along and create a test someday that can measure pure aerobic capacity without the bias of a sport specific fitness.

A person that has a measured V02max of 85 while running, biking, xc-sking, or knitting is not going to have a V02max of 5 while swimming, it simply isn't going to happen. But is that because of "sport specific fitness" as you suggest or genetics? I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that those that are able to excel at one endurance sport are genetically predisposed towards having success at another. Is there an ideal sport for each person? of course! But you are not going to have wild swings in V02max tests from sports that rely heavily on the human bodies ability to process oxygen. What you may see is a person that has a V02max of 85 under the riding protocol and 78 under the runnning protocol. Yes, I suppose that person is more fit as a cyclist than as a runner, but then again measuring fitness (whether sport specific or not) isn't an exact science is it??

Still many, myself included are guilty of using the V02max number as a measure of fitness when in reality its by and large more a measure of talent. Fitness I suppose would be better defined as a % of an individual baseline V02max number but again that would require a test to determine said baseline without a testing protocol bias.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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I certainly don't have a dog in the fight in ANY fast swimming thread (this is my 1st post on ST). But, I am the poster who started the discussion on BT.

The original discussion had NOTHING to do with swimming speed. My Q (and HTFU reference) was.....as a beginner swimmer...do I need to just HTFU and fight through the discomfort I feel when I reach a certain point? CAN I? Or, do I need to NOT put myself in that postition in the 1st place.

That was it. It morphed.

I swam my 1st length in MANY years (I'm 45) a few weeks ago. Since then, I've been in the pool a total of about 30+X. ALL I'm after, at this point, is getting to 5-600yds, non-stop (my longest swim so far has been 200yds). That's it. Hence my Q, there (this epic thread).

I'll CERTAINLY not do anything except thank Terry for his effort to help me. I found it refreshing. I still do. He disagrees that I should have to encounter a lot of discomfort to reach my goal. Is he right? Or, do I need to HTFU? That's the Q. I don't know the answer. But I do think he's positive he does (for MY situation).

We'll see.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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I certainly don't have a dog in the fight in ANY fast swimming thread (this is my 1st post on ST). But, I am the poster who started the discussion on BT.

The original discussion had NOTHING to do with swimming speed. My Q (and HTFU reference) was.....as a beginner swimmer...do I need to just HTFU and fight through the discomfort I feel when I reach a certain point? CAN I? Or, do I need to NOT put myself in that postition in the 1st place.

That was it. It morphed.

I swam my 1st length in MANY years (I'm 45) a few weeks ago. Since then, I've been in the pool a total of about 30+X. ALL I'm after, at this point, is getting to 5-600yds, non-stop (my longest swim so far has been 200yds). That's it. Hence my Q, there (this epic thread).

I'll CERTAINLY not do anything except thank Terry for his effort to help me. I found it refreshing. I still do. He disagrees that I should have to encounter a lot of discomfort to reach my goal. Is he right? Or, do I need to HTFU? That's the Q. I don't know the answer. But I do think he's positive he does (for MY situation).

We'll see.
Well, your question goes back to the philosophy of running I learned at the Honolulu Marathon Clinic when I (and thousands of others) were trying to learn how to do a marathon. Not race a marathon but to do a marathon. The key, SLOW DOWN!!!. It is hard for the average male to do this as they don't think they are accomplishing anything unless they are going hard and fast. That is not a good way to learn how to run long. Beginners do not learn how to run a marathon by doing 400 repeats. I suspect it is also not a good way to learn how to swim long.

If you simply put the time in the water and stay within your aerobic limits you will soon be at your goal if you do this regularly. If you also pay attention to your technique while you are doing so you will also come out of this phase of your training faster and better off for the next phase than if you did not.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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I certainly don't have a dog in the fight in ANY fast swimming thread (this is my 1st post on ST). But, I am the poster who started the discussion on BT.

The original discussion had NOTHING to do with swimming speed. My Q (and HTFU reference) was.....as a beginner swimmer...do I need to just HTFU and fight through the discomfort I feel when I reach a certain point? CAN I? Or, do I need to NOT put myself in that postition in the 1st place.

That was it. It morphed.

I swam my 1st length in MANY years (I'm 45) a few weeks ago. Since then, I've been in the pool a total of about 30+X. ALL I'm after, at this point, is getting to 5-600yds, non-stop (my longest swim so far has been 200yds). That's it. Hence my Q, there (this epic thread).

I'll CERTAINLY not do anything except thank Terry for his effort to help me. I found it refreshing. I still do. He disagrees that I should have to encounter a lot of discomfort to reach my goal. Is he right? Or, do I need to HTFU? That's the Q. I don't know the answer. But I do think he's positive he does (for MY situation).

We'll see.


While I'm no coach, based on your goals I'd say Terry's prgram is perfect.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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Welcome to ST...you'll have to put your big boy pants on, but all is good.

TI may be perfect for a person in your position, but as others have indicated, once you achieve your first goal (not drowning while swimming 1,000 yards non-stop)...there are many other ways to accomplish the next goal - speed at the same 1K yards.

You'll be fine and up to a 55 min IM swim in no time, as this is the ST median and expected of all who post here.

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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Read up man....this thread is a wealth of knowledge. There are some seriously knowledgable peeps that posted some valuable information on this thread and I for one enjoyed the discussion.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Boudreaux] [ In reply to ]
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I'll play a while....lol.

Here's the thing. I can swim a 2:05/100......and be taxed (130+HR). I can also swim a 1:22/100 (all-out)....and, naturally, be spent. I can't seem to get past the 200yd threshold, because I at least "think" I'm not capable of going further. And, based on how I feel at that moment.....I'm not sure I am.

Now, to you guys who do this swimming thing....and have for a long time....this is laughable. I can assure you that to ME it is not. I've never sucked at anything athletic. I'm on the "suck" threshold, swimming.

Swimming slow seems VERY laboring to me. Swimming faster takes everything I have (both have my HR spiked, QUICKLY).

Now...I apologize. THIS thread had nothing to do with MY situation....lol.

I'm out.

jeff
Last edited by: nc452010: May 19, 10 13:31
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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What I was trying to do was discuss fitness while being careful not to confuse genetic talent with fitness and I agreed with you by the way. But that being said everything I have read measures V02max is a general number. It can be attained using a number of testing protocols, most commonly the bike or treadmill test, however I suspect some genious will come along and create a test someday that can measure pure aerobic capacity without the bias of a sport specific fitness.

A person that has a measured V02max of 85 while running, biking, xc-sking, or knitting is not going to have a V02max of 5 while swimming, it simply isn't going to happen. But is that because of "sport specific fitness" as you suggest or genetics? I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that those that are able to excel at one endurance sport are genetically predisposed towards having success at another. Is there an ideal sport for each person? of course! But you are not going to have wild swings in V02max tests from sports that rely heavily on the human bodies ability to process oxygen. What you may see is a person that has a V02max of 85 under the riding protocol and 78 under the runnning protocol. Yes, I suppose that person is more fit as a cyclist than as a runner, but then again measuring fitness (whether sport specific or not) isn't an exact science is it??

Still many, myself included are guilty of using the V02max number as a measure of fitness when in reality its by and large more a measure of talent. Fitness I suppose would be better defined as a % of an individual baseline V02max number but again that would require a test to determine said baseline without a testing protocol bias.

Your notion that people should be similarly good at running / swimming without sport-specific training amazes me.

Even if you have a VO2 if 90, if your arms (or legs if running) are not conditioned enough to use it, you can't tap into it.

I can guarantee you that if Michael Phelps did a typical VO2 test for running, with no run training, he'd be quite underwhelming. Likely slower than myself, actually, and by a good bit. Put him in the pool though, and he'll put up monstrous numbers for a pool VO2 test. Yes, with run training, he will be able to get his run-tested VO2 closer to his swim-tested VO2, but it's almost certain that he won't be a world-class runner as he is a swimmer. He simply doesn't have enough miles in his legs as a runner to tap into his VO2 to put up a commensurate run performance.

You absolutely must have sport-specific conditioning regardless of your theoretical VO2max. Your notion that you should have similar ability across disparate sports without sport-specific training is completely wrong. In fact, it's very unusual for a triathlete to be good at all 3 roughly equally, particularly if they came from a single sport background.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 13:58
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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apparantly I am speaking a different language to both you and tc, because I already said I agree......3 times now.....that being said V02max is not a measure of speed!

Furthermore I NEVER said similarly good and clarified that I was trying to be careful not to mistake talent with fitness. Of course, Lance did run a 2:59 marathon on essentially no run training. I wonder what he was relying on, oh yes his V02, but as I mentioned that is much more a measure of talent than fitness?? And I might put money on Michael Phelps over you in a 5K.
Last edited by: saltman: May 19, 10 14:07
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
apparantly I am speaking a different language to both you and tc, because I already said I agree......3 times now.....that being said V02max is not a measure of speed!

Well if you're so correct, please explain away my scenario above where we decide to run-test Michael Phelps with a 5k run with no run training, and he clocks a 21:00 5k despite his obvious world-class VO2 per swimming results?

Your efforts to misdirect the relevant conversation above the obvious point we're making that SPORT-SPEFIC TRAINING IS CRUCIAL REGARDLESS OF VO2 are really painful to watch.

If the world worked as you claim, runners would jump in the pool and start ripping off 1:05s with no swim training, and swimmers would run 34:00 10ks with no mileage in their legs. I'd love to live in your world, but it's not a real one.

Michael Phelps should be able to beat me in a 5k - if he run trained. But I doubt he can go 17:50 with no training. I happen to know two local triguys who nearly qualified for the Olympics in swimming, and as I mentioned before - they're not catching me any time soon on the run, and they've been at it awhile. (WOW they can swim though!)

And because you brought it up - a 2:59 for Lance is NOTHING compared to his world-class performance as a cyclist. I've run sub-3, and I couldn't even hang with the slowest guy in a semi-pro US tour, let alone a world international tour. Even his 2:40 is way too slow to be considered anywhere remotely close to his accomplishments on the bike. Which further proves the point that sport specific training is crucial.

And to add to the endless bad information you've posted on this forum - a marathon is NOT a heavily VO2 dependent race. VO2-dependent races are 5k distance length races. Marathons are not run anywhere near that pace. To say his 2:59 was due mainly to his VO2 is also hugely incorrect.

I'm done arguing these obvious points with you - I'm obviously not going to convince you. But fortunately, nobody else is buying your false info as well, it seems.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 14:15
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, I fucking conceded the point. Learn to read.

What you are not understanding is my distinction between talent and fitness. I am not going to debate something in theory, I have no idea what Michael Phelps V02max is.

Nowhere did I say that one person can easily crossover from WC in one sport to another. Nice strawman.
Last edited by: saltman: May 19, 10 14:17
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I happen to know two local triguys who nearly qualified for the Olympics in swimming, and as I mentioned before - they're not catching me any time soon on the run, and they've been at it awhile. (WOW they can swim though!)

Maybe that is less an indication of their lack of running ability and more and indication your inability to swim? Maybe swimming doesn't take a huge aerobic engine? Maybe it really is about technique!! Maybe "fitness" for swimming should be defined as having superior technique. My point from the beginning of this conversation is that your heart and lungs are not your limiters for swimming fast. I admitted numerous times I did a poor job of explaining that.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Rob C in FL] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"That is a 55:41 IM swim pace. Granted, that's a lot faster than I can swim, but a lot slower than many here. How can that be a USMS record?"

Are USMS swims draft-legal?


I think they are, but I'm not sure. But for sure there's no bike/run afterwards...and not many IM's that I know of have a sighting cable.

(Though I have done one HIM with a sighting cable (Grand Columbian) and I have to say that it's awesome not having to sight -- you just put your head down and hammer.) :-)


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: May 19, 10 14:32
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Don't call me a strawman when this is the crap IN THIS VERY THREAD you yourself posted that I'm referring to:

From Saltman:

"Let me be clear, I am not an expert, but I don't believe the term "fitness" is sport specific. "

"The fact that you think it takes "fitness in your arms"....whatever that is, shows you haven't a clue what you are talking about. "

"Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness."

"If your problem is the fact that he is exploiting his "mediocre" skills for personal gain....I gotta say tough shit. If you have superior knowledge and a better record as an athlete, take a fucking business class and make some money, it just sounds a bit like sour grapes I guess. I expected more from some of the folks here. "

"Of course, Lance did run a 2:59 marathon on essentially no run training. I wonder what he was relying on, oh yes his V02"

"Maybe swimming doesn't take a huge aerobic engine?"

I don't even have to explain these to show how off-base they are.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 14:42
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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This is ridiculous. I think you do need to explain how those comments are off base other than perhaps the first one which BY THE FUCKING WAY I ADMITTED TO BEING OFF BASE NOW 6 TIMES after I admitted that I wasn't an expert. jesus christ man...you are a real piece of work.
Last edited by: saltman: May 19, 10 15:25
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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VO2 max is not fitness.

fitness is resistance to fatigue, and is sport specific, so you've got that part right.

but VO2 is not fitness, it is the engine that causes the fatigue. Resistance to fatigue is something else altogether. This is why elite athletes with the same VO2 (or me for that matter, a slow guy with a high VO2) can get such different race times.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericM35-39] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
VO2 max is not fitness.


This is where I made a mistake early on and what I have been tragically trying to clarify. I don't know if "resistance to fatigue" is the textbook definition of fitness, but is seems like the best one I have heard yet.
Last edited by: saltman: May 19, 10 15:27
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Phelps would trip over his own flipper feet if he did a run vo2 max test!

Poor saltman's getting wailed on. I didn't mean for that to happen and I apologize.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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tc I don't mind getting wailed on when the wailers are people with knowledge and are making a coherent argument. I have tripped over myself here, but I do know that V02 isn't a measure of performance.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. The long time joke in swimming is that the better the swimmer, the more horriffically clumsy they are on land. The same bone structure and biomechanics that lead a person to do well in the water can cause limitations for land sports.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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right.

Race times are the only measure of performance! (or workout times)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Ok then, since you asked for it:

From Saltman:

"Let me be clear, I am not an expert, but I don't believe the term "fitness" is sport specific. "

-Disproven by many as above posts.


====
"The fact that you think it takes "fitness in your arms"....whatever that is, shows you haven't a clue what you are talking about. "

- You definitely need arm/back conditioning, both muscular and neurological to swim fast. Though Terry and TI might deny it, there are many more coaches who believe you have to swim fast to go fast. Nearly all masters swim programs are based on a heavy dose of fast interval swimming and HTFU designed specifically at building aerobic capacity as well as capillary growth in arms,back, and other musculature so they don't fatigue earlier. Even expert swimmers who take years off and jump back in the pool already have built up swim fitness that will last for years, and possibly a lifetime if they started as a child. But don't think for a second that a pure marathon runner, even at world class level, who has never been in a pool, can swim fast with only slow technique related sesssion in the pool.

===

"Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness."

- Absolutely wrong. Most people need to increase volume to facilitate the crucial hi-speed VO2 and lactate hard interval runs without injury so they can run faster. If you only train slow, you're going to run slow. Show me a running coach who says you don't need running speed sessions to become a better runner, and I'll show you a quack. Even marathon runners do a fair amount of speedwork in the form of 800s (and even 200s) because speedwork is so crucial for running.

===

"If your problem is the fact that he is exploiting his "mediocre" skills for personal gain....I gotta say tough shit. If you have superior knowledge and a better record as an athlete, take a fucking business class and make some money, it just sounds a bit like sour grapes I guess. I expected more from some of the folks here. "

Lots of people who posted on this very thread are far superior swimmers than Terry, both in youth, and as a master. They just don't prosletyze and sell for money it as the solve-all for swimming the way Terry does. It's much more convincing to hear advice from a coach with no vested financial interest in his advice as compared to someone like Terry (and his paid coaches on BT) who clearly have everything to gain finanically by promoting their theories as better than others. Even if he's not doing it actively, subconsciously, the bias effect is huge and enough for me to take everything he says with a tremendous grain of salt.


===

"Of course, Lance did run a 2:59 marathon on essentially no run training. I wonder what he was relying on, oh yes his V02"

Uh, no. VO2 is definitely not the limiting factor in marathons, especially for Lance. He wasn't even out of breath in the final hour - his legs cramped. That has nothing to do with VO2, and everything to do with his complete lack of proper run training for the running race. VO2 is a major factor in 5ks and 10ks, which I would expect Lance to do very well in even with limited run training. But take him to marathon, and his VO2 was irrelevant to the race due to his lack of conditioning to tap into it.

===

"Maybe swimming doesn't take a huge aerobic engine?"

Tell Marky5 and the other swimmers on this forum this and you'll find that I've been really gentle in the way I've been debunking your ideas. If anything, swimming requires more of an aerobic engine than the other sports, because you can do nearly endless aerobic intervals without injury in swimming, where in running (and even cycling), the odds of an overuse injury are much higher when doing back-to-back hard aerobic interval sessions.
Last edited by: lightheir: May 19, 10 15:57
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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my favorite swim joke is "didn't recognize you with your clothes on"

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Please stop. I made the mistake of improperly using the term "fitness" to which I have admitted. You on the other hand are doing nothing to make yourself sound more legitimate. I suggest we retreat to our respective corners. I have to go work on my run specific fitness....seriously.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Please stop. I made the mistake of improperly using the term "fitness" to which I have admitted. You on the other hand are doing nothing to make yourself sound more legitimate. I suggest we retreat to our respective corners. I have to go work on my run specific fitness....seriously.

Ok, we're done. I admit - I've been picking on you, but you really set yourself up for it. Still, my rebuttals above, which as you can see above, are not personal attacks, but rather, clear explanations of why I disagree with them, as well as the justifications.

As such, my last rebuttal post was in direct response to your very own comments:

-"I think you do need to explain how those comments are off base other than perhaps the first one"

- "I don't mind getting wailed on when the wailers are people with knowledge and are making a coherent argument."

I think it's pretty easy to see what the guy on the other end of the debating table is going to say when you set yourself up like that.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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You all should come back over, Terry now says that swim pace improvements are produce only by neural, not aerobic, training, and he quotes some Dr. who claims the stuff upon which all those theories about aerobic conditioning are based as "pseudo-science at best. Good grief.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You all should come back over, Terry now says that swim pace improvements are produce only by neural, not aerobic, training, and he quotes some Dr. who claims the stuff upon which all those theories about aerobic conditioning are
based as "pseudo-science at best. Good grief.

TL might actually be worse than FD.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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You all should come back over, Terry now says that swim pace improvements are produce only by neural, not aerobic, training, and he quotes some Dr. who claims the stuff upon which all those theories about aerobic conditioning are based as "pseudo-science at best. Good grief.

He made the same claims here about 6 months ago. When called on it, he disappeared.

-Jot


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericM35-39] [ In reply to ]
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Resistance to fatigue is something else altogether. This is why elite athletes with the same VO2 (or me for that matter, a slow guy with a high VO2) can get such different race times.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I think you would need to define fitness as something other then resistance to fatigue.

And running economy has something to do with the % of vo2max two people with the same vo2 are running at. rather probable that one could be chugging along at 70% of vo2max the other at 80% even though they are running the same speed.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ In reply to ]
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I find this thread fairly entertaining...in a humorous way.

People can learn to swim fast as adults. I've seen it happen. Most people don't get there, though. Why? They just aren't willing to do the work necessary to get fast. When the coach calls for 10 more 100s after they are already sucking breath from the first 10...they quit...hang on the side of the pool...or otherwise sandbag. Thats where kids have the advantage. They just keep going....believing the adult on the side of the pool knows what is best...and they don't just give up. Well, the ones who get fast don't give up, anyway.

The idea that someone can get fast swimming what cyclists and runners might call Z2...is laughable. If someone suggested that a cyclist could progress from a 1:30 40k to a sub-hour 40k riding Z2...even lots of miles...that person would be laughed out of the room. Train at Z2 in the pool...you're going to get real good...at swimming Z2...with a low turnover rate and keeping the same crappy form.

And here we have an "expert" claiming that swiming fast is all technique?

Phooey.

If you want to swim fast...you have to train fast. Train fast WAAAAAY past when it hurts. Shut off that adult brain that tells you to "be reasonable about this"...and just frappin swim...HARD.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The idea that someone can get fast swimming what cyclists and runners might call Z2...is laughable. If someone suggested that a cyclist could progress from a 1:30 40k to a sub-hour 40k riding Z2...even lots of miles...that person would be laughed out of the room. Train at Z2 in the pool...you're going to get real good...at swimming Z2...with a low turnover rate and keeping the same crappy form.

Swim training is not bike or run training. I know someone who trained for RAAM by doing (duh) huge miles on the bike. He just rode and rode and rode, and finished I think 10th or 11th that year. He didn't do intervals or the like, but the one time he rode with our team he was incredibly strong. He also did 445 miles in a 24 hour bike race.

There's someone on ST who has won local triathlons by virtue of his very fast run splits, who rarely if ever ran faster than about 7:00/mile. I've been running this year at about 7-7:30/mile pace, and I did 12:14 and 18:52 run splits this past weekend for a 2mi/10mi/3mi duathlon.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
The idea that someone can get fast swimming what cyclists and runners might call Z2...is laughable. If someone suggested that a cyclist could progress from a 1:30 40k to a sub-hour 40k riding Z2...even lots of miles...that person would be laughed out of the room. Train at Z2 in the pool...you're going to get real good...at swimming Z2...with a low turnover rate and keeping the same crappy form.

Swim training is not bike or run training. I know someone who trained for RAAM by doing (duh) huge miles on the bike. He just rode and rode and rode, and finished I think 10th or 11th that year. He didn't do intervals or the like, but the one time he rode with our team he was incredibly strong. He also did 445 miles in a 24 hour bike race.

There's someone on ST who has won local triathlons by virtue of his very fast run splits, who rarely if ever ran faster than about 7:00/mile. I've been running this year at about 7-7:30/mile pace, and I did 12:14 and 18:52 run splits this past weekend for a 2mi/10mi/3mi duathlon.

Actually, training at 7-7:30/mile is dead on the correct pace for most of your run miles if you're running an 18:52 duathlon. Now if you were doing only 9 or 10 mins/mile in training with no speedwork, good luck with running that fast. 7min/mile in training for most of your miles is pretty fast - I think I AVERAGED 8:30/mi when I ran a 2:58 when I was a pure runner. I did some very fast runs, and a lot of runs at 8-8:30, and a good number of recovery miles at 9-10min/mile due to the hi-mileage beatdown.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [gamebofh] [ In reply to ]
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I decided to look it up to share the humor.

Let me guess, the BT thread mentions "myelin secretion"?

We've already had that whole thread here.

For your reading pleasure.


-Jot
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I thought Terry was pretty decent through most of that post...

You were definitely attacking though ;-)

Seemed like you really wanted to engage him in back-and-forth debate that he wasn't jumping in on. Once started though, others jumped on board to attack.

I understand your point that you want him to concede that there is more than one way to skin a cat and we can benefit from T.I., tempo work, speed work, mileage, etc. but I didn't get the sense that he wasn't saying that.

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Chrissie wins because she trains really f'ing hard and races really f'ing hard and was blessed with a huge f'ing motor" Jordan Rapp
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to: Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [trexleradam] by tigerchik Post:
In Reply To:
The thing that really bugs me about TI is that it's easier to have better, not worse, technique when you're swimming near-all out. Last time I did a swim focus, my best technique started to come when I incorporated sets of 25s at very high intensity, thinking about technique, though. Good technique and lolly-gagging is a contradiction in terms.
I agree with this, but if we tell most triathletes this they will start flailing their arms like a windmill while they try to swim fast.

Once you're a good swimmer, then it's easy to swim fast, with good technique.

Chicken and egg conundrum do you think?
_____________
I think I rave in a kind of exquisite delirium. I should wish now to protract this moment ad infinitum; but I dare not.
-Charlotte Bronte's 'Jane Eyre'

I would never just tell anyone to just swim as hard as they can, but I do think good stuff happens when you start to think about going fast, smooth, and efficient. My point is that it's not just chicken and egg, because sometimes you have to go fast to learn to go fast well.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [trexleradam] [ In reply to ]
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Just spent 45 minutes reading this thread...both camps are right and wrong. I am 45 been doing tris for 5 years and learned (still learning) to swim the first year. Not a fast swimmer; 1:25 IM swim, 29 min OLY. One thing T1 does, I think, is speak a language new swimmers can understand. I have read the book but never been to a camp. On the flip side, I have had private lessons from 2 different coaches and done some masters swimming. The good news is I know my biggest limiter - my f'in feet and legs are anchors - might as well put a patachute on in the water. The bad news is the coaches I have worked with started slapping pull bouys, fins and other crap so I could "feel" what it was like having my lower body higher - this doesn't do shit for me. Then they throw you in a master class and say keep up. So you huff and puff and keep up but your techniques sucks - it doesn't translate.

Fine, I need to swim more, harder, increase my stroke rate (which is low). But, until my freaking legs aren't sinking a foot below my body all the HTFU will not matter - just wasted effort.

What I find really interesting is the pile on that happens to TL - don't have a dog in the hunt, just saying.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I wouldn't call you N=1 but more of the 10-15% of the people who will naturally have a 'feel for the water' and can intuitively pick up on how to move through it. And who then have issues with drills because they're suddenly having to try to explain how they're doing it right when they just instinctively know how to put all the pieces together.

I just want to confirm that you did an excellent analysis of my swimming based on very little info.

I have problems with every kind of swimming other then free style beginning to end of session. And i completely ruined the stroke by swimming the triathlon way. It took me some sort of big time to shut down the effect of drills and thinking too much. I should have kept swimming for myself, and stayed far away from triathlon swim training.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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I guess this is what it boils down to, you don't need to do speed sessions to swim 24 minutes, you just need to swim. I re-read the original posting and do not see where Terry said anything about less swimming....he simply doesn't advocate intense swimming. Is this really a surprise or any different than running? My technique sessions are anywhere from 2500 to 3000 yards, they are still yards.

Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?

I still believe "fitness" (as defined by V02) is an absolute measure.
Quote:

Coming from a running background, swimming was something that was hard to grasp. Apparently from what I've learned about, most swim training should be done at higher speeds. A lot of it is because the technique changes too much at slower speeds, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that your body can handle the intense swim training and, well, an hour of hard swimming is a bigger workout than an hour of easy swimming.

As someone else stated, try doing that running and you get injured. Running is more about maximizing the amount of training you can do while minimizing the recovery needed between sessions. Recovery isn't nearly as big an issue on the bike or in the pool, which is why those guys can hammer more.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Just wanted to ad my 2 cents on TI.

TI got me from not being able to swim more than 100yards to being able to swim a mile in 48 minutes in about a month's time.

Desert Dude and the U of D swim coaches got me to swim my IM in 1:17, which is 32 minutes a mile in open, choppy waters, while saving some for the rest of the day.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?


I don't agree with that either, Barry. I think most running coaches would advocate that the most important aspect of run training is to first build up volume and frequency slowly and then to vary intensity. That doesn't mean 1000M repeats at 100% effeort, but certainly tempo and higher intensity efforts are crucial to improving run fitness.I believe the same can be applied to swim training, Terry does not, that's our fundamental disagreement. Terryu thinks that traditional concept of training our aerobic system is psuedo-science. I don't agreee.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Read any of the running guru posts around here and they will tell you speed sessions aren't necessary for "most" people to improve running fitness. Why is it that when BarryP says the same thing about running, he is genious, but this guy says the same thing about swimming and he is roadkill?


I don't agree with that either, Barry. I think most running coaches would advocate that the most important aspect of run training is to first build up volume and frequency slowly and then to vary intensity. That doesn't mean 1000M repeats at 100% effeort, but certainly tempo and higher intensity efforts are crucial to improving run fitness.I believe the same can be applied to swim training, Terry does not, that's our fundamental disagreement. Terryu thinks that traditional concept of training our aerobic system is psuedo-science. I don't agreee.

I think the key here is, for your average adult beginner triathlete, whether it's running, swimming or biking we are talking about...

... doing it more will bring gains. If you start off running a 12 minute mile and can only do one of those, running MORE will make you faster, if only as a side effect from running more miles. Same with swimming. If you can't swim 25m without gasping for air, swimming more slowly (but more) will make you faster.

At a certain point however, a sub 20 5k time for example (just a wild example), without training Faster you will not run faster.

I think we can all agree on that.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [blueraider_mike] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to: Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [trexleradam] by blueraider_mike Post: Just spent 45 minutes reading this thread...both camps are right and wrong. I am 45 been doing tris for 5 years and learned (still learning) to swim the first year. Not a fast swimmer; 1:25 IM swim, 29 min OLY. One thing T1 does, I think, is speak a language new swimmers can understand. I have read the book but never been to a camp. On the flip side, I have had private lessons from 2 different coaches and done some masters swimming. The good news is I know my biggest limiter - my f'in feet and legs are anchors - might as well put a patachute on in the water. The bad news is the coaches I have worked with started slapping pull bouys, fins and other crap so I could "feel" what it was like having my lower body higher - this doesn't do shit for me. Then they throw you in a master class and say keep up. So you huff and puff and keep up but your techniques sucks - it doesn't translate.

Fine, I need to swim more, harder, increase my stroke rate (which is low). But, until my freaking legs aren't sinking a foot below my body all the HTFU will not matter - just wasted effort.

What I find really interesting is the pile on that happens to TL - don't have a dog in the hunt, just saying.
I'm not sure if you were replying directly to me, but I will say that I don't think you really get the point about fast swimming and technique. I don't think it's possible to swim well at 1:25/IM pace. I also recognize that new swimmers (and even pretty good swimmers when they're not fit) have the strength or fitness to swim well for very long at all. That's why you have to swim a lot faster to swim well, and for many that will start at very short distances, because people will only be able to do it well for very short distances. So you do short distances well, which work out to be intervals, and you build up how long you can hold the form.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [leegoocrap] [ In reply to ]
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If you can't swim 25m without gasping for air, swimming more slowly (but more) will make you faster.


I disagree. If you are healthy and in reasonable condition yet can't swim 25m without gasping for air, then you are doing something fundamentally wrong with your technique, and no amount of swimming slower will make you faster.

I see a number of people (swimmers and triathletes) who are not going to get faster until they either improve their technique or start swimming harder. They all swim plenty of yards.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I have been following this thread with mild amusement, however I just want to point out one thing (IMO) I think keeps many triathletes in the "suck" mode in terms of swimming. Its called diminishing return on investment. I absolutely hate swimming and I suck (1:35-1:40/100's), however spending the time to get another 5-10 seconds isnt worth it for me. I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run. I went from zero biking to a 1hr, 40k type, in about 2 years. I have been running for 6 years and have a 38 min 10k, 3:10 open marathon pr. I enjoy running and biking more than swimming so that is what I focus on. I will not IGNORE my swimming, but really I dont care if I suck, I mean its only swimming...

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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You guys failed to pick the term "most" when I made that comment. "Most" does not refer to most elite triathletes, or even the seasoned ST contributor. Most people cannot currently go sub 3:00 for an OLY or 6 hours for a half IM. Those people will make bigger and safer gains from more volume in all three sports rather than just instantly adding intensity. They will get faster naturally.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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"I would guess a little of both: fatigue from other sports can carry over to swimming, tired legs are no fun for kicking

you probably DID get faster, then didn't swim enough to keep it."


That makes some sense--although I don't think the improvement I saw came from a stronger kick, so it was probably more a matter of decreased generalized fatigue rather than decreased leg fatigue.

In any case, let's hope a return to higher swimming volume this winter will bring me results that will carry over into IMFL the following fall!

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I have been following this thread with mild amusement, however I just want to point out one thing (IMO) I think keeps many triathletes in the "suck" mode in terms of swimming. Its called diminishing return on investment. I absolutely hate swimming and I suck (1:35-1:40/100's), however spending the time to get another 5-10 seconds isnt worth it for me. I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run. I went from zero biking to a 1hr, 40k type, in about 2 years. I have been running for 6 years and have a 38 min 10k, 3:10 open marathon pr. I enjoy running and biking more than swimming so that is what I focus on. I will not IGNORE my swimming, but really I dont care if I suck, I mean its only swimming...
The point is, if you go harder during the yards you're doing, you'll get faster without spending more time in the pool.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Boudreaux] [ In reply to ]
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"You'll be fine and up to a 55 min IM swim in no time, as this is the ST median and expected of all who post here."

For some reason the pink font isn't displaying properly on my machine.

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Boudreaux] [ In reply to ]
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You'll be fine and up to a 55 min IM swim in no time, as this is the ST median and expected of all who post here.

Looks like some people other than my parents are going to be disappointed for the foreseeable future. Thanks Slowtwitch!

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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One of the things I find intersting about these types of swimming threads is that, while 100s of triathletes a year are taking some steps to try and improve their swimming and debating which weird ass method is best, there are literally 1000s of new kids showing up at local club teams taking up the sport every year. The methods used to get those kids from 25 yd dog paddlers to clocking what would be MOP swim times for any triathlete are very well established. The path is well documented, had tens of thousands of trials and it work. Actually, the tricky part of coaching swimming only comes once you get to the point where you are trying to stretch the talend of a random kid so he can have a shot at making a state cut or geting your superstar up to the next level. Basic how to swim reasonably fast by triathlon standards and what to do over time to get anyone there is simple.

But, it takes work and most folks don't want to work in the pool.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [STP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
One of the things I find intersting about these types of swimming threads is that, while 100s of triathletes a year are taking some steps to try and improve their swimming and debating which weird ass method is best, there are literally 1000s of new kids showing up at local club teams taking up the sport every year. The methods used to get those kids from 25 yd dog paddlers to clocking what would be MOP swim times for any triathlete are very well established. The path is well documented, had tens of thousands of trials and it work. Actually, the tricky part of coaching swimming only comes once you get to the point where you are trying to stretch the talend of a random kid so he can have a shot at making a state cut or geting your superstar up to the next level. Basic how to swim reasonably fast by triathlon standards and what to do over time to get anyone there is simple.

But, it takes work and most folks don't want to work in the pool.
Amen.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I have been following this thread with mild amusement, however I just want to point out one thing (IMO) I think keeps many triathletes in the "suck" mode in terms of swimming. Its called diminishing return on investment. I absolutely hate swimming and I suck (1:35-1:40/100's), however spending the time to get another 5-10 seconds isnt worth it for me. I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run. I went from zero biking to a 1hr, 40k type, in about 2 years. I have been running for 6 years and have a 38 min 10k, 3:10 open marathon pr. I enjoy running and biking more than swimming so that is what I focus on. I will not IGNORE my swimming, but really I dont care if I suck, I mean its only swimming...


You could conceivably knock 5 minutes off your 1500m swim time with some work. What do you think it would take for you to get to 55:00 on the bike, or 33:00 in the run?

I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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Ken:

I agree with you, however since I make a living at doing something other than S/B/R, I want to make sure I enjoy the process. I will not ignore swimming but I will have more fun trying to get to a 55m 40k bike! Plus, swimming is a necessary evil for me at this point, as I will continue to bike as long as I am able and will drop swimming like a fricken bad habit. I am a competitve person, I do not show up to a race for a shoe shine, however I like to keep it in perspective as well.

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.
Yes, but those you beat would be better off looking at themselves to see where they should best spend their time or put their emphasis rather than looking at how you spend your time or where you put your emphasis. It is pretty rare in this sport that the first person out of the water is the first person across the finish line.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.

Yes, but those you beat would be better off looking at themselves to see where they should best spend their time or put their emphasis rather than looking at how you spend your time or where you put your emphasis. It is pretty rare in this sport that the first person out of the water is the first person across the finish line.


And the answer they will find the majority of the time is that it is the swim where they have the most likely chance to make up the time difference. I'm a decent runner and biker, but they really suck in the water.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.

Yes, but those you beat would be better off looking at themselves to see where they should best spend their time or put their emphasis rather than looking at how you spend your time or where you put your emphasis. It is pretty rare in this sport that the first person out of the water is the first person across the finish line.


And the answer they will find the majority of the time is that it is the swim where they have the most likely chance to make up the time difference. I'm a decent runner and biker, but they really suck in the water.
You had implied that the difference in time between them and you was entirely in the swim. If you are only a decent biker and swimmer I could see someone coming to a different conclusion. Anyhow, these different opinions is the fodder for lively discussions.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Gerry,

With a wetsuit would you still advocate 80+ OW stroke rate? I swam today with a wetronome set to 70spm and was a little over a minute faster than at 55spm over about ~800 yards in the local lake. Not sure if I can at this point or even should in the future aim for higher?

Thanks
Ian
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Just wanted to ad my 2 cents on TI.

TI got me from not being able to swim more than 100yards to being able to swim a mile in 48 minutes in about a month's time.

Desert Dude and the U of D swim coaches got me to swim my IM in 1:17, which is 32 minutes a mile in open, choppy waters, while saving some for the rest of the day.

not sure I would give credit to TI for that though. That's just time in the pool.
I was about the same when I started and just did it on my own. And my form SUCKS! :)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ianbal] [ In reply to ]
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Gerry,

With a wetsuit would you still advocate 80+ OW stroke rate? I swam today with a wetronome set to 70spm and was a little over a minute faster than at 55spm over about ~800 yards in the local lake. Not sure if I can at this point or even should in the future aim for higher?

Thanks
Ian


That's interesting. How did it feel - how does it feel now?

I'd like to hear from Gerry...

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ianbal] [ In reply to ]
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Ian: Gradual improvements over time as your specific muscular endurance and power is developed. But, in general, yes, moving toward 80 is the target. One can never be fast at 55.....at least not as fast as their potential. Good luck!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I'll point out that in three triathlons last year, my AG-winning margin was less than what I gained on 2nd place in the swim alone.

Yes, but those you beat would be better off looking at themselves to see where they should best spend their time or put their emphasis rather than looking at how you spend your time or where you put your emphasis. It is pretty rare in this sport that the first person out of the water is the first person across the finish line.

Unless your last name rhymes with Rotts.


--Chris
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Your call:

1 2595 I Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 21:03 1:01:50 43:23 2:09:06
2 2599 I Jim Sonneborn M 50 MORRISTOW NJ 24:58 1:01:02 43:03 2:12:18


1 16 411 SPRINT Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 11:13 59:17 20:59 1:34:31
2 18 400 SPRINT David Blume M 50 WABAN MA 14:40 57:20 20:21 1:35:25


1 5003 S Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 5:41 44:25 21:11 1:13:18
2 5002 S Mark Danieli M 50 CHELMSFOR MA 7:02 42:28 21:44 1:13:26

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Last edited by: Just Old Again: May 20, 10 12:49
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you need to take up duathlon. Liberate yourself from the swim! :->



"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [teekona] [ In reply to ]
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Funny you mention that, did my first one this weekend, 2nd in my AG! I am looking for more to do this year.

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Gerry: Thanks. I will keep moving it up as I adapt to a faster rate.

Boudreaux: I started the swim without any warmup in water in the 50s and it felt rushed and breathing was harder initially. I usually breath bilaterally with the 2/3 pattern garyhallsr mentioned. I ended up doing some more of 1 stroke/1 breath. I then settled down into my normal breathing pattern. I also noticed that the stroke was much shorter at the rear otherwise I couldn't hit the target. This mirrored another one of garys posts. I also didn't pull as hard on each stroke. It felt good enough to say that I am going to continue on this path.

I started prior to this thread because I noticed on seeing a copy of the Beijing 10k swim how fast the stroke rate was. I had never counted the rate though and prior to Gerry's post would not have tried even 70. Just watched the men's Seoul ITU swim and the rate was over 80 as well.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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Ken:

Not to split hairs here, but an arguement could be made if those dudes that finished second to you would have had decent run times they would have won. Just saying...

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Your call:

1 2595 I Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 21:03 1:01:50 43:23 2:09:06
2 2599 I Jim Sonneborn M 50 MORRISTOW NJ 24:58 1:01:02 43:03 2:12:18


1 16 411 SPRINT Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 11:13 59:17 20:59 1:34:31
2 18 400 SPRINT David Blume M 50 WABAN MA 14:40 57:20 20:21 1:35:25


1 5003 S Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 5:41 44:25 21:11 1:13:18
2 5002 S Mark Danieli M 50 CHELMSFOR MA 7:02 42:28 21:44 1:13:26


Good stuff, Ken. Keep in mind that Olympic races favor strong swimmers. For Half or Full IM's, the swim becomes a smaller percentage of overall time.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ianbal] [ In reply to ]
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With the a 24 minute 1500 should be easy in my head this morning, I decided to swim with an even higher stroke rate than usual for me. I would say I was towards the 100 mark as opposed to mid 80s. With that, I was able to take about 5 seconds off my normal 100yard splits. I felt more winded cardio-wise as well.

I also followed garyhallsr myth about ignoring the exit of each stroke to keep the rate high.

My technique still sucks but since I have no clue how to improve that I'll focus on things I can figure out and that's faster rate and doing more yards and more speed work.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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The funny thing I've noticed is that when I use a tempo trainer, that the rate is all relative.

1.05 feels fast when you start at 1.15.
It feels glacial after you've done a set at .95

When I'm at .95 I definitely have to "not finish" the stroke or I have no chance
of keeping up.

Thanks for the observations. Very interesting.

-Jot
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [M~] [ In reply to ]
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No, it wasn't just time in the pool. I was exhausting myself because I was kicking like a mad man to keep me legs from sinking. In the past I had put about the same amount of time in the pool and was never able to get beyond 4-6 laps without taking a break.

TI taught me how to balance myself in the water.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Just Old Again] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Your call:

1 2595 I Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 21:03 1:01:50 43:23 2:09:06
2 2599 I Jim Sonneborn M 50 MORRISTOW NJ 24:58 1:01:02 43:03 2:12:18


1 16 411 SPRINT Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 11:13 59:17 20:59 1:34:31
2 18 400 SPRINT David Blume M 50 WABAN MA 14:40 57:20 20:21 1:35:25


1 5003 S Kenneth Lehner M 51 HOLMDEL NJ 5:41 44:25 21:11 1:13:18
2 5002 S Mark Danieli M 50 CHELMSFOR MA 7:02 42:28 21:44 1:13:26
No, it is their call.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run.
--------------------------------------------------------------

This is why most triathletes suck in the water. I went from a 29:xx 1500m to a 23:xx 1500m in 2 weeks. Yeah you read that right, 2 weeks. Being 6 min faster made a big improvement in my finishing place, getting my swim under 19:00 eventually didn't hurt me either.

The majority of triathletes probably have more time to gain by working on swimming and can gain it in a shorter period of time then they have upside potential in biking or running.

Besides improving your swimming is faster then a new set of wheels, but most people don't know how to objectively evaluate then maximize their triathlon ROI.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: May 20, 10 16:19
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ianbal] [ In reply to ]
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Please consider one other factor: Many triathletes from non-swim backgrounds being taught this slow, easy swimming that are also taught to breath bilaterally or even every 4th stroke run into further issues; example: The 80 rate athlete breathing every cycle (or every 2nd stroke) will get 40 breaths every minute; significant oxygen to facilitate their sustained output. The 55 rate athlete, breathing biltaerally (every 3rd), or those that breathe every 4th will only get breaths every 14-18 times per minute. This is a huge variance in oxygen to the muscles.

Although I'm not an exercise psychologist, I'd still go with the more breath opportunities. This does not imply not to breathe bilaterally, but perhaps it can be done as one length on the right, then one on the left, or several times to the right, then several to the left. One does need bilateral breathing skills for open water. Good luck!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Gerry Rodrigues
http://www.tower26.com
twitter: @tower_26
FB: Tower 26
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I will continue to swim and hopefully progress over the years, but I will not kill myself for a little time gain, when I could potentially pick up more on the bike and the run.
--------------------------------------------------------------

This is why most triathletes suck in the water. I went from a 29:xx 1500m to a 23:xx 1500m in 2 weeks. Yeah you read that right, 2 weeks. Being 6 min faster made a big improvement in my finishing place, getting my swim under 19:00 eventually didn't hurt me either.

The majority of triathletes probably have more time to gain by working on swimming and can gain it in a shorter period of time then they have upside potential in biking or running.

Besides improving your swimming is faster then a new set of wheels, but most people don't know how to objectively evaluate then maximize their triathlon ROI.

Yeah, when you really think about it, you can increase your total weekly yardage simply by swimming an extra 10-15:00 per training session. You're already there, may as well. So more volume is good. And when there, you will need to swim at least 60% or more at or above goal race pace efforts. People who will cane themselves on the bike or flog themselves running get very non-HTFU in the pool. Being out of breath with your face in the water sucks. Hard swimming makes your whole body, not just your legs, feel very stressed. It sucks...but it works.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks again, this makes sense. Can you talk about the reasons for different stroke rate ranges as being important for OW swimmers? It seems that increasing my stroke rate to 80 will increase speed, would there be any valid reason to swim less than that? I see the case for increasing stroke rate for the fast finish or start or bridge to next swimmer.

Ian
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I don't agree with that either, Barry. I think most running coaches would advocate that the most important aspect of run training is to first build up volume and frequency slowly and then to vary intensity. That doesn't mean 1000M repeats at 100% effeort, but certainly tempo and higher intensity efforts are crucial to improving run fitness.I believe the same can be applied to swim training, Terry does not, that's our fundamental disagreement. Terryu thinks that traditional concept of training our aerobic system is psuedo-science. I don't agreee.
Quote:

I didn't write the post that you disagreed with and I'm not entirely sure what point I made that you don't agree with.

I was responding to saltman saying, in a nutshell, swimmers can do a higher percentage of higher intensity training than runners.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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You wrote "Trent Grimsley, went to a stroke rate of nearing 100/minute with a strong 6BK. The chase pack then ignited their rates to 84-92 with an increase to a 6BK."

Did the pack have a 2 beat kick for the majority of the swim? Could Iron distance open water swimmers make the first tier predominantly with a 2BK similar to how Laure Manaudou swam the 400m in Athens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQUqn5b_Na4

Thanks,
Damon

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
This is why most triathletes suck in the water. I went from a 29:xx 1500m to a 23:xx 1500m in 2 weeks. Yeah you read that right, 2 weeks. Being 6 min faster made a big improvement in my finishing place, getting my swim under 19:00 eventually didn't hurt me either.

The majority of triathletes probably have more time to gain by working on swimming and can gain it in a shorter period of time then they have upside potential in biking or running.

Besides improving your swimming is faster then a new set of wheels, but most people don't know how to objectively evaluate then maximize their triathlon ROI.

Can I assume you had good/great swim technique for the 29xx and then did some harder swim workouts in the 2 weeks to get 23xx? Or was it bad technique to good/great technique for that gain?

I think us land based triathletes focus on the other two sports because we can get online training plans/advice and immediately put them to use. Even read a book or two. I can also do that with my pool workouts but none of those things takes bad technique and turns it into good technique. It seems with swimming you need someone to look at your technique and help you tweak all the things wrong with it over and over.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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I have to say, for the first time in I don't know when (if ever haha) I went to the pool last night for my 2500 swim and pushed the entire way.

Cut 3 minutes off my time. Felt absolutely terrible after I was done (Like shaking terrible) but man, in a way, really felt like I got my swim on.
(By the way, by no means was I fast in the water...just faster for me haha)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I didn't write the post that you disagreed with and I'm not entirely sure what point I made that you don't agree with.

I was responding to saltman saying, in a nutshell, swimmers can do a higher percentage of higher intensity training than runners.


Sorry, I must have mis-read it. :)

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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horrible technique to decent technique and that took hard work

Then more hard work began to get to sub 19:00.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, you have no Idea what your talking about. "Hard Work?" This is triathlon, Its all about volume. Nevermind that I can't break 1:45 for a LC 100m. I swim more than you. Well, time wise I do. I got in 6 hours of swimming last week, it was only about 6k. But thats not the point.
Pfff,... "Hard work" next thing you know you'll be saying that I should be doing intervals. How do you live with yourself knowing that you are giving such bad information.


(this post is drenched in sarcasm.)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Dude:

While I am happy it worked out for you that way, I am much different. I swim min 9k per week (more like 12 now), I have a coach and I have a workout plan for every swim that will include speed work, I can not say I have made that much improvement in 12 months. There is some talent involved in the equation also.

______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [coopdog] [ In reply to ]
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Dude:

While I am happy it worked out for you that way, I am much different. I swim min 9k per week (more like 12 now), I have a coach and I have a workout plan for every swim that will include speed work, I can not say I have made that much improvement in 12 months. There is some talent involved in the equation also.

Me thinks it may be time for a new coach/plan. :)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Ask him if he's coached anyone fast. When he comes back with a "no" or no answer, well then, you've got your answer for his creds.
I'm new here, but find this thread interesting. It's not my place to speak for Terry, but I do know a little bit about TI history. Not sure of the exact dates, but back in the mid 90s, Terry went to coach at West Point. He volunteered to coach the most "under performing" group there, not knowing what he would get. He ended up with the "sprint" group if memory serves. One of his goals was to prove that TI methods could work at a high level - Division 1 in this case. You can read the Patriot League record books for yourselves, but will see that during the 3 yrs. Terry coached there & after - roughly starting around '96-'97 - Army's sprinters (individual & relay) ruled. In particular, a guy named Joe Novak ruled. Those swimmers, while having to perform at a high level, had to do it right before they could do it harder of faster. It they got "ragged" or "sloppy" they would go back, drill, slow down, calm down & try again. The results speak for themselves...
http://www.patriotleague.org/...2009-10PLMWSDRecords
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy] [ In reply to ]
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That brings back some memories. I was on that late 90's Lafayette team. "Smokin" Joe Novak was impressive.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [M~] [ In reply to ]
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Dude:

While I am happy it worked out for you that way, I am much different. I swim min 9k per week (more like 12 now), I have a coach and I have a workout plan for every swim that will include speed work, I can not say I have made that much improvement in 12 months. There is some talent involved in the equation also.

Me thinks it may be time for a new coach/plan. :)

Seriously. I'm swimming maybe 6-9k a week in 2-3 sessions, and I'm steadily improving every week or two, and I'm close to doing sub 2:00 for 200scy sets, so it's not like I'm starting from scratch.

Have you considered finding a masters team to train with? Have you taken a month break?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Boudreaux] [ In reply to ]
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TI may be perfect for a person in your position, but as others have indicated, once you achieve your first goal (not drowning while swimming 1,000 yards non-stop)...there are many other ways to accomplish the next goal - speed at the same 1K yards.
Why would that be the next goal? I would encourage someone to have a different "next" goal once they've not drowned - swim that 1K without thinking about the possibility of drowning. Then swim it with relative ease & comfort. Then swim it with great ease & comfort. There are lots of ways to build toward speed without actually trying to go faster. But even that misses the important point for MOST triathletes - why not enjoy & cruise the swim so you're so fresh for T1 & the bike that you cream your best bike time? And wouldn't that have a "knock-on" effect of improving your run?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy] [ In reply to ]
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why not enjoy & cruise the swim so you're so fresh for T1 & the bike that you cream your best bike time?\\

While you are at it, why not cruise the bike and run and really have some fun??? Because it is a race..It has been shown over and over that the faster group you can get on the bike course with, the better your bike split will be. And it is also shown that in general, the slower the swim group you exit with, the slower bike group you will ride in..

I enjoy racing the swim, not cruising it, cruising is what I like to do at the end of workout in my warm down. But that is me, I'm one of those competitive guys that likes to get my maximum value at the races I pay for...If I took your advice I would bike slower, not faster, but again that is just me I guess..
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I find this thread fairly entertaining...in a humorous way.

People can learn to swim fast as adults. I've seen it happen. Most people don't get there, though. Why? They just aren't willing to do the work necessary to get fast. When the coach calls for 10 more 100s after they are already sucking breath from the first 10...they quit...hang on the side of the pool...or otherwise sandbag. Thats where kids have the advantage. They just keep going....believing the adult on the side of the pool knows what is best...and they don't just give up. Well, the ones who get fast don't give up, anyway.

The idea that someone can get fast swimming what cyclists and runners might call Z2...is laughable. If someone suggested that a cyclist could progress from a 1:30 40k to a sub-hour 40k riding Z2...even lots of miles...that person would be laughed out of the room. Train at Z2 in the pool...you're going to get real good...at swimming Z2...with a low turnover rate and keeping the same crappy form.

And here we have an "expert" claiming that swiming fast is all technique?

Phooey.

If you want to swim fast...you have to train fast. Train fast WAAAAAY past when it hurts. Shut off that adult brain that tells you to "be reasonable about this"...and just frappin swim...HARD.
Ahhh, but what is fast?
Sorry to ask, BriTriGuy, but since you're making a pretty forceful proposition here do you have any experience as a competitive swimmer or coach?
Is it possible you're "training" philosophy is, "no pain, no gain"?
I'm curious, what kind of time did you hold on that set of 20 x 100?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Then swim it with relative ease & comfort. Then swim it with great ease & comfort. There are lots of ways to build toward speed without actually trying to go faster. But even that misses the important point for MOST triathletes - why not enjoy & cruise the swim so you're so fresh for T1 & the bike that you cream your best bike time? And wouldn't that have a "knock-on" effect of improving your run?

My tri swimming mantra actually has always been 'train hard so you can race easy' - work hard on bringing the aerobic threshold pace down in the pool, and then come out of the water on race day not only fresh as a daisy but also at the front of the pack.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [blueraider_mike] [ In reply to ]
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Just spent 45 minutes reading this thread...both camps are right and wrong. I am 45 been doing tris for 5 years and learned (still learning) to swim the first year. Not a fast swimmer; 1:25 IM swim, 29 min OLY. One thing T1 does, I think, is speak a language new swimmers can understand. I have read the book but never been to a camp. On the flip side, I have had private lessons from 2 different coaches and done some masters swimming. The good news is I know my biggest limiter - my f'in feet and legs are anchors - might as well put a patachute on in the water. The bad news is the coaches I have worked with started slapping pull bouys, fins and other crap so I could "feel" what it was like having my lower body higher - this doesn't do shit for me. Then they throw you in a master class and say keep up. So you huff and puff and keep up but your techniques sucks - it doesn't translate.

Fine, I need to swim more, harder, increase my stroke rate (which is low). But, until my freaking legs aren't sinking a foot below my body all the HTFU will not matter - just wasted effort.

What I find really interesting is the pile on that happens to TL - don't have a dog in the hunt, just saying.
You're experience is pretty typical, unfortunately. The "coaches" who wanted you to "feel" what it was like don't understand how to help you get that feeling on your own, which is sad. Balance - hugging the surface from head-to-toe - is arguably the most important swimming skill, yet so few "coaches" understand what it is, let alone how to teach it.
Were any of them surprised when your legs sunk again after removing the pb, fins or other crap?
Did they even notice?
What did they say when you asked them why your legs wouldn't stay up even after you got the "feeling" with the pool toys?
If you want to get your legs (& hips) to the surface just press your chest (lungs) down - like your body's a teeter-tooter. It's simple... not necessarily easy, but simple!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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Please consider one other factor: Many triathletes from non-swim backgrounds being taught this slow, easy swimming that are also taught to breath bilaterally or even every 4th stroke run into further issues; example: The 80 rate athlete breathing every cycle (or every 2nd stroke) will get 40 breaths every minute; significant oxygen to facilitate their sustained output. The 55 rate athlete, breathing biltaerally (every 3rd), or those that breathe every 4th will only get breaths every 14-18 times per minute. This is a huge variance in oxygen to the muscles.
Surely that's comparing apples to oranges? Why use 2/cycle breathing for the 80 rate swimmer, but 3-4/cycle breathing for the 55 rate swimmer? If you use the same breath rate for both, the 55 rate swimmer would get 27-28 breaths/minute which is still a pretty big gap, but then the 55 rate swimmer probably isn't working as hard, so doesn't have the same oxygen needs (all other things being equal) as the 80 rate swimmer. Did I miss something?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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That brings back some memories. I was on that late 90's Lafayette team. "Smokin" Joe Novak was impressive.
I hope Joe's not reading this, but as I understand it he was pretty "mediocre" when Terry got there - 49.0/100 free, 53.0/100 fly, but went at least as fast as 45.45 & 49.13 on a steady diet of technique before all else. I'm pretty sure he split a 43.+ 100 free in a relay, so he went a long way. He coaches much the same way now, too. He just had a kid win the 200 & 500 free at States & the team finished 2nd.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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why not enjoy & cruise the swim so you're so fresh for T1 & the bike that you cream your best bike time?\\

While you are at it, why not cruise the bike and run and really have some fun??? Because it is a race..It has been shown over and over that the faster group you can get on the bike course with, the better your bike split will be. And it is also shown that in general, the slower the swim group you exit with, the slower bike group you will ride in..

I enjoy racing the swim, not cruising it, cruising is what I like to do at the end of workout in my warm down. But that is me, I'm one of those competitive guys that likes to get my maximum value at the races I pay for...If I took your advice I would bike slower, not faster, but again that is just me I guess..
We may be talking about different "kinds" of triathletes. I don't know what % are "hard core" vs. "have fun", but I suspect the latter group is way in the majority.
I'm sure studies & statistics have their place, but... have you ever tried it?
Maybe another way to ask is - do you do things the same way all the time because that's what you're used to/always do or are you willing to think & experiment "outside the box"?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I know a few TI swimmers...they are like the Jahovahs Witness' of swimming professing how great TI is. Truth be told two of them have beautiful strokes and look like poetry in the water....slow slow slow ass poetry in the water. Something like 50+ strokes per 25 at a VERY slow pace.


No thanks. I prefer to splash a bit for my 100's on 1:05 as opposed to 100's on 2:40+

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [TIGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Please consider one other factor: Many triathletes from non-swim backgrounds being taught this slow, easy swimming that are also taught to breath bilaterally or even every 4th stroke run into further issues; example: The 80 rate athlete breathing every cycle (or every 2nd stroke) will get 40 breaths every minute; significant oxygen to facilitate their sustained output. The 55 rate athlete, breathing biltaerally (every 3rd), or those that breathe every 4th will only get breaths every 14-18 times per minute. This is a huge variance in oxygen to the muscles.

Surely that's comparing apples to oranges? Why use 2/cycle breathing for the 80 rate swimmer, but 3-4/cycle breathing for the 55 rate swimmer? If you use the same breath rate for both, the 55 rate swimmer would get 27-28 breaths/minute which is still a pretty big gap, but then the 55 rate swimmer probably isn't working as hard, so doesn't have the same oxygen needs (all other things being equal) as the 80 rate swimmer. Did I miss something?
Sorry, I posted before finishing...
Don't (at least some) 80 rate swimmers breathe every 3 or even 4?
Your generalization about "slow, easy swimming" (a euphemism for TI?) students being taught to breathe every 3 or 4 strokes is based on what? I've taught hundreds of triathletes, including those from swimming backgrounds, to breathe every 2 or 3 strokes, never 4 or more (more later on why "hypoxic" sets are dubious at best).
Wouldn't you agree that open water swimmers should be able to breathe to both sides, which, although bilateral, is different than breathing every 3 strokes?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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I know a few TI swimmers...they are like the Jahovahs Witness' of swimming professing how great TI is. Truth be told two of them have beautiful strokes and look like poetry in the water....slow slow slow ass poetry in the water. Something like 50+ strokes per 25 at a VERY slow pace.
No thanks. I prefer to splash a bit for my 100's on 1:05 as opposed to 100's on 2:40+
Why do they swim the way they do?
Why do you swim the way you do?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Just wanted to ad my 2 cents on TI.

TI got me from not being able to swim more than 100yards to being able to swim a mile in 48 minutes in about a month's time.

Desert Dude and the U of D swim coaches got me to swim my IM in 1:17, which is 32 minutes a mile in open, choppy waters, while saving some for the rest of the day.

I was one of the ones "attacking" TL for his pseudo science in that thread. My problem was with some of the statements that he made regarding the physiology, not necessarily the TI system. I have stated before, and state again that TI does have a place. It does teach a basic stroke that allows people to at least finish the swim leg. IMHO, it does not teach a fast stroke.

If you don't know how to swim (or can't swim very well) and have no access to coaches/instructors (And they are not necessarily the same thing), then TI is probably perfect for you. Once you are finished with that, then you can learn to swim fast.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Could someone please tell me why my TI post was deleted from this thread.It was my 1st post on this forum and did not seem out of line IMO.
I sent an email but was returned undelivered.I would like to know what I can and cannot post so don't waste time. Thank You,Jay
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jpflores] [ In reply to ]
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jpflores wrote:
You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water.

I would go out on a limb and say EVERYONE'S best race will happen when they pace their swim well. But that doesn't mean keeping the RPE/HR low during training is an effective way of becoming a faster swimmer.

Maybe for HIM and IM races but my best OD races have always come when I was in really good swimming shape and swam the 1500m hard, then just kept up my best possible pace through the bike and run.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jess_d] [ In reply to ]
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jess_d wrote:
Terry has years of experience in which he developed very strong muscles and technique that allows him to just maintain his current speed (and slightly improve it over time). You can't tell the avg age grouper that they should swim easy = the avg age grouper needs to spend the same time Terry did in developing the proper muscles and technique. It takes years of hard training to be able to develop the muscles necessary to swim fast without a lot of effort.

Well, really he's not all that super fast. The 46:20 for 2 mile cable swim is not the current M55-59 USMS record but rather 42:19 is, per the USMS web site. Also, the 1500m LCM record for M55-59 is 17:22.6, which if this guy were to do the 2-mi cable race, would probably translate to around 39:00 for 2 miles OW, assuming good conditions, maybe even 38:00 if he had some guys to draft off. (The two records were set by different guys.)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
There's a fascinating debate with Terry Laughlin himself from Total Immersion on BeginnerTriathlete, where he's justifying his "go-easy" training methods for all athletes, not just beginners. A few strong swimmers are actively participating, which is making for a very interesting discussion. Was wondering what the opinion of the fishies on ST was about the points brought up.

Thread here: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/...tart=81&posts=97

Some of the controversial quotes from Terry himself on the thread:

===

"Unlike in running and cycling, there has never been any correlation established between ANY fitness measure and swimming performance. Energy system training works for some swimmers. Fails for far more.

The only absolute correlation that exists in swimming is SL x SR = V. And that equation is far more influenced by neural conditioning than aerobic."


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"I know this is anecdotal, but I never swim "extremely hard," let alone on a regular basis, yet swam the USMS 2-mile Cable Swim in 46:20 at age 56, breaking my own USMS 55-59 record.

This summer my goal is to break my USMS 55-59 1-Mile Cable Swim record during my final year in the age group. At no time will I swim extremely hard in training. And if I reach max effort during the event, it will only be for the final 100-200m."

===

You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water.

===

Of the 3 disciplines in triathlon, swimming is the only one ideally suited to restoration. If you train strategically, a good, relaxed, technique-oriented swim practice can aid in your recovery for the land-based training that is more naturally stressful. If you try to HTFU in the pool, you will almost certainly compromise your run and bike training.
[

Watch the greatest 1500m swimmer ever (Grant Hacket) and count his stroke rate. Not much over 60 (if I'm counting correctly). Watching Hacket - long glide, perfect form, smooth strokes - reminds me very much of T1 style swimming. Of course Hacket was a tremendous athlete with a huge motor; however, from my view - holding true to many basic T1 concepts.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DC Pattie] [ In reply to ]
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DC Pattie wrote:


Watch the greatest 1500m swimmer ever (Grant Hacket) and count his stroke rate. Not much over 60 (if I'm counting correctly). Watching Hacket - long glide, perfect form, smooth strokes - reminds me very much of T1 style swimming. Of course Hacket was a tremendous athlete with a huge motor; however, from my view - holding true to many basic T1 concepts.


I guess I just don't see much of a comparison. Grant uses a very shallow and radical EVF catch while Terry enters the water closer to his head and drives straight to his pull through position almost alleviating said catch motion with a very deep arm position during the pull through. Terry has a lazy if almost non-existent 2 beat kick while Grant looks like a thunder thighs convention shot with a tazer. Lastly, the pace these two guys swim at is about as similar as my 10K to one of the Brownlees.

But yea other than that I can see how one might confuse Grant Hackett as a TI swimmer.....
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 11, 12 4:22
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Not only was it your first post, but it also appears that it was your only other post on this forum - in nearly two years. Has this really been gnawing at you for all this time? So much so that you raised this thread from the dead? It's been so long that whoever pulled probably doesn't even remember.

hotman637 wrote:
Could someone please tell me why my TI post was deleted from this thread.It was my 1st post on this forum and did not seem out of line IMO.
I sent an email but was returned undelivered.I would like to know what I can and cannot post so don't waste time. Thank You,Jay

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting a reply Mike! The reason I posted on a two year old thread is I have not looked at tri forums untill recently(I joined the same time I posted).I spent the last few years observing and practicing TI and other methods trying to figure out what TI was and how it worked.The deleted post was my conclusions.They may very well be completely incorrect,lol,but I can't know that untill I get some feedback.That is why I made the post.I can rewrite the post if someone will tell me why it was deleted so I can make the necessary changes or they can repost it.Anyhow thanks for your time. Jay
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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So you dedicated 2 years of your life to swim training TI style? I, for one, would be interested to hear how that worked out. Unless your post looked like promotional spam, I can't think why it would be deleted. ST is a fairly open forum. You didn't mention PowerCranks at any point did you?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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Brazilbrush,thanks for commenting on my post!That was exactly what my original post,explaining TI and how it worked for me! I STILL have no idea why it was deleted.Anyhow I will just give a quick summation and see if that is acceptable,lol.
The big complaint of TI on here is that it is too slow so most people(that I have observed) use what I call the"catch and pull" method.TI uses what I call the"turn, push and glide"method.It is simple to go fast with the"catch and pull"method,just move your arms faster.It is more difficult to go faster using the"turn,push and glide"method because the rhythm of your entire body is used not just your arms.But with practice TI can be fast,and it is(to me)smoother,easier and more relaxed.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I know I have asked this question in the past after reading some things posted by "Terry Laughlin," but are we really sure it is the real Terry Laughlin doing the posting?





---

"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JM] [ In reply to ]
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It's always worthwhile to incorporate some easy training sessions into your plan both to recover and to remind yourself why you participate in this wonderful sport

Head Coach Grn Mchn Multisports Coaching, LLC
http://www.grnmchnmultisports.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DanSzajta] [ In reply to ]
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DanSzajta wrote:
It's always worthwhile to incorporate some easy training sessions into your plan both to recover and to remind yourself why you participate in this wonderful sport

I genuinely think this is the wisdom I've been looking for. Thanks.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
.But with practice TI can be fast,and it is(to me)smoother,easier and more relaxed.

Could be for you but in general terms not. By entering the hand close to the head and extending it under water, TI introduces in front crawl the glide phase you find in breakstroke. And for sure it is much more tiring to push yourself against the water than above the water. That is the reason why none of the fastest front crawlers use the TI style in competition (and certainly not Grant Hackett).

In front crawl, fast swimmers's focus is to swim high on the water (and not glide under the water which as a matter of fact is specific to breakstroke).

This glide phase in TI style is interesting for beginners and average swimmers because it increases your distance per stroke but if you want to reach a higher level of speed you need a hand entry far from the head as top swimmers do in front crawl.

TI style is still interesting and nice to practice mostly as a drill.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Could someone tell us how on earth you got to digging up this old thread? Albeit, TI bashing is fun and all....but still.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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He probably used the search function - which is probably what everyone would have suggested had he started a new thread...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [charris] [ In reply to ]
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charris wrote:
He probably used the search function - which is probably what everyone would have suggested had he started a new thread...


Hey, we cant give anyone a break around here ;-)

I wonder what ever happened to Terry. Those days were almost as fun as the good old TNO swinger fest / divorce / spousal cheating threads (that bled over to here). If I recall properly we got a few new posters from that fiasco (when they were summarily banned for life from TNO).

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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Terry is like Beetlejuice- say his name enough, one of his cronies will let him know he's getting talked about, and he generally eventually appears.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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"By entering the hand close to the head and extending it under water...".I like that description solarberg,because that is the first step to TI,IMO.I can see why you would say it is more tiring,because it is pushing against the water instead of pulling.But I think it is more then offset by three factors.#1As you push forward you are throwing your arm,shoulder,hip and leg in one smooth motion that has incredible power(watch a great boxer,like Suger Ray Leonard,that's how he punches).#2 As you throw your whole body into the stroke you turn your shoulders to 90 DEGREES,in other words,perpendictular to the bottom of the pool and then you glide.As you are gliding you are in are FAR AND AWAY more aero postion then most"catch and pull" theories state(often 30 degrees).Since water is 100's of time thicker then air,aero postioning has a FAR GREATER effect in water then it does it does in air.#3As you finish your glide,you pull STRAIGHT DOWN ,not off the the side as many catch and pull theories state and NO s-curve IMO.
In my opinion many people find this technique slow for 2 reasons.#1Most people(including me,lol)cannot understand what Terry is REALLY saying!The above is MY interpretation and Terry might say I am totally wrong.If he does I hope he gets on here and explains himself,lol.It took me a long time to develope the above theory and would love to hear what others say about it.#2 The whole key to this techniqe is PERFECT timing.Your"push,turn and glide"have to be SPOT ON or you sink.You have to practice A LOT to get it.Then you have to speed it up.Swinging your arms faster like catch and pull does not work.Most people never even get past step 1.
Anyhow love to hear what people have to say.I stumbled on this thread by Googling"Total Immersion Debate".This is the first site that came up.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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As a matter of fact, water is not 100 times thicker but approximately 815 times thicker than air.

It is true that you have a lot of power by throwing yourself but you need all this power because you are swimming against the water: you are basically hitting a wall every time you extend your arms and body against that water. TI is alleging that by doing so you are piercing the water but why would you do that if you can find a way to go above the water during that phase (instead of under the water) ? If you look at competitive swimmers, you will notice how their upper body stays high on the water (so that the volume of their body immersed is the least possible). Watch for instance James Magnussen swimming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMqw31SrtCs) and see how his head and upper body stay very high. He is definetively not "totally immersed" ;)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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Should I swim as hard in the IM as those guys do for a 100m race?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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solarberg wrote:
As a matter of fact, water is not 100 times thicker but approximately 815 times thicker than air.

It is true that you have a lot of power by throwing yourself but you need all this power because you are swimming against the water: you are basically hitting a wall every time you extend your arms and body against that water. TI is alleging that by doing so you are piercing the water but why would you do that if you can find a way to go above the water during that phase (instead of under the water) ? If you look at competitive swimmers, you will notice how their upper body stays high on the water (so that the volume of their body immersed is the least possible). Watch for instance James Magnussen swimming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMqw31SrtCs) and see how his head and upper body stay very high. He is definetively not "totally immersed" ;)

----

Comparing beginner or weaker swimmer to the worlds best freestylers is never the best way to go and is a mistake that happens here all the time.Yes it would be great if all swimmers had the style,strength and engine that Magnussen and his mates have but the reality is that very few triathletes do.

Same goes for biking and running.

---
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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In some ways Sun Yang would be a better example. The TI guys rave about Yang, and rightly so, he´s an incredible swimmer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uqZd8Tn3Y

He´s pretty low in the water, certainly compared to the excellent clip of Magnussen.

Back to TI. It seems to me, as a strong swimmer who benefited from reading the TI book, that there is a real risk with the TI stroke that is not addressed. When swimming longer distances it´s OK to glide - look at Yang, how low his stroke rate is compared to Cochrane - but the risk is for us mere mortals that you ´overglide´ and stall.
Hope that makes sense.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]
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Looks a bit "totally immersed" to me........
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [solarberg] [ In reply to ]
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As a matter of fact I stated water is 100'S(with an S)of times thicker then air not just one hundred,but no big deal,lol.The interesting thing about those two videos, Magnussen and Yang is the stroke count.I counted about 37 strokes for Magnussen per length and 29 strokes per length for Yang(could be wrong,hard to see those videos well).The point is that Yang is WAY MORE EFFICIENT!They are both fast,both win and both great swimmers.People can win with both styles.But for triathletes who have to do 2 more events and want to save energy and get through the swim with minimum effort I think TI is something every one should at least TRY,lol.It is a lot like aero bars,Lance could beat the vast majority of Triathletes using drop bars but he uses aero bars because it too is more efficient.Great feedback!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Comparing Sun Yang's stroke count during a 1500 lcm race versus Magnussen's stroke count during a 100 sprint count does not really inform us about their efficiency in my opinion. One is racing for almost 15 minutes and the other is racing for less than a minute. David K
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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The point is that Yang is WAY MORE EFFICIENT!

How do you know this? You need to be pretty efficient to swim 100m in 47.10 LCM.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
ive got a long way to go before I can swim as fast as my coach who doesn't really train anymore at all.

that would suggest to me that technique is still my major limiter

Im at like 10x100@1:40 he is at infinityx100 at 1:10

heh

+1

I went swimming once with a 25 year old girl that hadn't swam since highschool swim team days and she was beating me in every set we did.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
But for triathletes who have to do 2 more events and want to save energy and get through the swim with minimum effort I think TI is something every one should at least TRY,lol.

The funamental flaw with using Sun's stroke as a model for efficiency is that it's heavily kick-dependent- give Sun a kickboard, and he can hold 1:15/100 LCM during practice. Plus, a freestyle that requires so much use of kick is horrible when you've got to go use those same muscles to bike & run afterwards.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
hotman637 wrote:
But for triathletes who have to do 2 more events and want to save energy and get through the swim with minimum effort I think TI is something every one should at least TRY,lol.


The funamental flaw with using Sun's stroke as a model for efficiency is that it's heavily kick-dependent- give Sun a kickboard, and he can hold 1:15/100 LCM during practice. Plus, a freestyle that requires so much use of kick is horrible when you've got to go use those same muscles to bike & run afterwards.

....and don't forget that if you are 5'3" and trying to emulate Sun Yang's form with Albatross size wingspan with a T rex wingspan, you'll go no where really slowly....and your legs will be cooked for the run.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
hotman637 wrote:
But for triathletes who have to do 2 more events and want to save energy and get through the swim with minimum effort I think TI is something every one should at least TRY,lol.


The funamental flaw with using Sun's stroke as a model for efficiency is that it's heavily kick-dependent- give Sun a kickboard, and he can hold 1:15/100 LCM during practice. Plus, a freestyle that requires so much use of kick is horrible when you've got to go use those same muscles to bike & run afterwards.

Excuse my ignorance (uneducated novice), but if Sun is heavily kick dependent what is Cochrane in lane 2? To my uneducated eye Sun's kick looks pretty tame.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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You DON'T have to be efficient to do 100m in 47.1 you have to be FAST!Efficiency and speed are not the same thing.Yang is EFFICIENT because he did 1500m in under 900 STROKES(he was also fast!).If you extrapulated Magnussens stroke count for 100m to 1500 meter he would be doing around 1100 strokes,about 200 more strokes.That is a LOT less efficient.Many might say that is not a fair extrapulation,but my point is if Magnussen wanted to dramatically reduce his stroke count he would have to change his technique from"catch and pull" to Total Immersion,lol.Of course he can keep is stroke count high but that takes energy and would slow him down in the longer distance.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Ummm, yes you do. If you are wasting energy (i.e. inefficient) then you will NOT be able to swim that fast. Speed and efficiency are linked. You say Yang was fast, and he was, but Magnussnen was swimming around 11 secs per 100 faster than Yang. That is an enormous difference.

Many might say that is not a fair extrapulation

Because it isn't. You and I don't know what Magnussen's stroke count would be if he swam a 1500, just like we don't know what Sun Yang's stroke count would be in a 50 or 100. Strokes do change because the power requirement changes, but to say that categorically Sun Yang's stroke is way more efficient than Magnussen's is incorrect. You cannot say that just by comparing stroke counts.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 14, 12 15:22
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DieTryin'] [ In reply to ]
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DieTryin' wrote:
Excuse my ignorance (uneducated novice), but if Sun is heavily kick dependent what is Cochrane in lane 2? To my uneducated eye Sun's kick looks pretty tame.

An elite pool swimmer is generally so efficient at kicking that they can be very fast at it without looking like they're doing much. Laure Manaudou is like the queen of having a nicely propulsive but visually non-existant kick.

Good swim technique is not just about about arm movement or torso placement but goes all the way down to the toes.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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You are right I don't know what there respective stroke count would be if they switched distances.I admit I am ASSUMING,lol, that Magnussen would either have to reduce his stroke count on the longer distance OR keep up the high stroke count and get tired and slow down.IF he wants to make a major stroke reduction he has to use Total Immersion,IMO.If he keeps the high stroke count Yang would win because he has more energy left for the last lap.That is a LOT of assumtions I admit,but that is how people plan their racing strategy,even more so in triathlons then just swimming events.For long events like Ironman Yang would have an even bigger advantage,just based on less energy usage.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DieTryin'] [ In reply to ]
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For the first 1400 of that swim, Sun Yang's kick was "relatively" tame compared to what he is capable of. that said, like Fla Jill alluded to, he can probably kick 1:20's LCM with that lazy version of the kick, and if you watch his kick for the last 100 that is probably good for under a minute.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Why are you assuming that having a lower stroke count is more efficient? That is a huge assumption.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Efficency is defined as"effective use of time and effort".So you are right time is important in defining efficency.But I am assuming that doing 37 strokes for 50 meters takes substantually more effort then 29 strokes for 50 meters so Magnussen is less efficent from the standpoint of EFFORT.IF he can do 37 strokes in 50m using the SAME EFFORT as Yang uses to do 29 strokes,in my opinion he has broken at least one law of physics,lol.(Of course I mean both going full speed).
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Efficency is defined as"effective use of time and effort".So you are right time is important in defining efficency.But I am assuming that doing 37 strokes for 50 meters takes substantually more effort then 29 strokes for 50 meters so Magnussen is less efficent from the standpoint of EFFORT.IF he can do 37 strokes in 50m using the SAME EFFORT as Yang uses to do 29 strokes,in my opinion he has broken at least one law of physics,lol.(Of course I mean both going full speed).

I think what you are missing with your explanation is how speed is non-linear with power in the water.

Let's put this in terms of a cycling analogy. Suppose we have person A who does 20mph at 200 watts
and person B who does 30mph at 301 watts. Who is more "efficient"? Based on the equivalent of your
swim math, you would say person A by a thin margin (20/200>30/301), but that would be way off.
Person B would have to be super efficient with a crazy low CdA to go that speed, person A does not
have to be particularly efficient to achieve their speed.

The other responders are pointing out that going as fast as Magnussen in a 50, even with 37 strokes may
well be more efficient than Sun at 29 strokes if you were to normalize for their speed. I don't think it is
clear that we have the data to tell and certainly the stroke count alone is not sufficient.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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There is a woman (girl) who swam at my Y when she was on school break. She was about six foot eighty inches and very muscular - I heard she swam for Michigan. Anyways, she would do this dolphin back kick thing, take one single breath per 25yd, flip and do it again x1500yd. She hardly moved her body at all. AND while doing it she was faster than the Masters swimmers who were doing Freestyle.

Simply amazing to watch.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Again, what is your basis for this assumption? Opinions don't count when it comes to the laws of physics. If we make the ASSUMPTION that both swimmers are equal size, shape and weight (which isn't true, but lets pretend it is), then by definition the 2 swimmers net power output, after any inefficiencies, must be the same for equal swimming speeds. Assuming equal efficiency, a lower stroke count means that the swimmer has to exert a greater force per stroke than the swimmer with the higher stroke count, but the total net power output is the same. We simply do not know how efficient each swimmer is in reality without testing them.

Efficency is defined as"effective use of time and effort"
No it isn't, at least not in this context.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 15, 12 13:08
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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R10C wrote:
There is a woman (girl) who swam at my Y when she was on school break. She was about six foot eighty inches and very muscular - I heard she swam for Michigan. Anyways, she would do this dolphin back kick thing, take one single breath per 25yd, flip and do it again x1500yd. She hardly moved her body at all. AND while doing it she was faster than the Masters swimmers who were doing Freestyle.

Simply amazing to watch.

Chip, I have only seen a few do this over the years, but it is just amazing how fast and smooth they are. To go back and have learned to swim as a kid. Now, I did that for my kids starting as soon as I could get them in the pool,
and now going to do the same with my granddaughters.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DavidK] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder what would happen to Yang's time in the 1500 if he sped up his stroke count a couple strokes....


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Efficency is defined as"effective use of time and effort".So you are right time is important in defining efficency.But I am assuming that doing 37 strokes for 50 meters takes substantually more effort then 29 strokes for 50 meters so Magnussen is less efficent from the standpoint of EFFORT.IF he can do 37 strokes in 50m using the SAME EFFORT as Yang uses to do 29 strokes,in my opinion he has broken at least one law of physics,lol.(Of course I mean both going full speed).

By by your logic, someone going at 40RPM on the bike is more efficient than someone going 80RPM, all other things being equal. Not necessarily true.

Efficiency in the swimming case should be defined as the energy expended to maintain a given speed. But energy expended is not the same as stroke count.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I am quoting JasonHalifax"a lower stroke count means that the swimmer has to exert a greater force per stroke then the swimmer with the higher stroke count...".Not always true,in my opinion.A lower stroke count means you are GOING FURTHER PER STROKE! So the question is,why does Yang go further per stroke?It could be because his shoulders and arms are stronger and he is able to"catch and pull" with more brute force.BUT he DOES NOT USE"catch and pull".In my opinion he uses"turn,push and glide"or called on here Total Immersion.TI is a more effective use of time and effort!BUTinterestingly enough it is not the most effective technique.As a couple of post above mentioned the girl doing the dolphin kick is amazingly fast and even less motion.Of course that is why you CANNOT USE the dolphin kick except at the ends of the pool,it is just too fast.To kind of sum up again:The idea is to get up and down the pool as fast and easily as possible,IMO.Also IMO,there are two basic techniques used by most people,"catch and pull" and"turn push and glide".Both can be fast,both can win and both have benefits and drawbacks.To me "turn push and glide" is smoother,easier,more relaxed and uses less strokes,but takes a lot more practice and precision to get really fast.Most people don't want to practice as much as it takes to get good.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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You have a lot of opinions. At this point, all I'll do is point out a couple of things.
1) while yang's stroke does have a glide to it during the first 1400 m, when he sprints at the end hat glide appears to disappear.

2) comparing underwater videos of yang vs. the video of the guy on the TI website as the "model" stroke, the mechanics of the pull are very different. Yang's entry is much farther out in front, he keeps his elbow much closer to the surface during the entire stroke,and gets his forearm to vertical very early in the pull. That indicates that he uses the front part of the stroke (i.e. the pull) to generate a lot of power. His stroke reminds me of Grant Hackett's stroke far more than Shinji's.

3) yang breathes a lot. At least every 2 strokes, and sometimes more often. That implies that he is using a heck of a lot of energy to swim the way he does.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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 I will try a new approach,lol.Instead of comparing one swimmer using one type of stroke against a another swimmer using another type of stroke I will use a comparison I mentioned before,aerobars on a bike verses drop bars.Using aerobars is somewhat like TI.TI is longer and lower in the water,using aerobars your body is longer and lower.Using drop bars even if you are actually on the drops,your chest is exposed,your arms are out and your head tends to be up. In other words using aerobars you are more aero then drop bars,hence the name.In Total Immersion your postioning is far more aero then"catch and pull".But of course not all"aero" positons are the same in swimming OR biking. Yang's stroke may not be the"model" of Total Immersion.Of course there are also many ways to do catch and pull also. Same with bike positioning.There are all sorts of aerobars out there and they can be set up in all sorts of ways to get all sorts of different results.You can be set up very"aero" on the bike and still be uncomfortable hence it may not do you any good.It is strange to me that virtually everyone uses aero bars in triathlons but very few use TI(in my opinion),yet as mentioned before water is 814 times thicker then air.I myself don't really find aerobars all that great,yet I much prefer TI.IMO we should look at ALL the options and decide what WE want to do.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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What do you consider 'fast'?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I am not sure what exactly you are referring to with that question.Speed is relative.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
I will try a new approach,lol.Instead of comparing one swimmer using one type of stroke against a another swimmer using another type of stroke I will use a comparison I mentioned before,aerobars on a bike verses drop bars.Using aerobars is somewhat like TI.TI is longer and lower in the water,using aerobars your body is longer and lower.Using drop bars even if you are actually on the drops,your chest is exposed,your arms are out and your head tends to be up. In other words using aerobars you are more aero then drop bars,hence the name.In Total Immersion your postioning is far more aero then"catch and pull".But of course not all"aero" positons are the same in swimming OR biking. Yang's stroke may not be the"model" of Total Immersion.Of course there are also many ways to do catch and pull also. Same with bike positioning.There are all sorts of aerobars out there and they can be set up in all sorts of ways to get all sorts of different results.You can be set up very"aero" on the bike and still be uncomfortable hence it may not do you any good.It is strange to me that virtually everyone uses aero bars in triathlons but very few use TI(in my opinion),yet as mentioned before water is 814 times thicker then air.I myself don't really find aerobars all that great,yet I much prefer TI.IMO we should look at ALL the options and decide what WE want to do.

What did you think of Gerry Rodrigues' posts within this thread?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
DieTryin' wrote:

Excuse my ignorance (uneducated novice), but if Sun is heavily kick dependent what is Cochrane in lane 2? To my uneducated eye Sun's kick looks pretty tame.


An elite pool swimmer is generally so efficient at kicking that they can be very fast at it without looking like they're doing much. Laure Manaudou is like the queen of having a nicely propulsive but visually non-existent kick.

Good swim technique is not just about about arm movement or torso placement but goes all the way down to the toes.

Not necessarily as there are plenty of fast freestylers who don't kick very well. I know 3 guys at my club who swam 48-49 for 100 SCY in high school and yet can't kick fast at all. Also, I've exchanged emails with James Bonney who went 46.0 for the 100 and low-15 for the 1650, and he said he was a slow kicker but made up for it with his pull.

I would say that you can't really say what any given swimmer's kick is contributing unless you have knowledge of how fast he/she kicks. Sun Yang might have a strong kick or he might not...:)


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I've known a good number of fish over the years who would describe themselves as 'crappy kickers', and to a person, their idea of what constitutes a crappy kick would still blow just about any adult-onset swimmer out of the water.

If you're whining about how haaard it is to make 100 yards of kick on a 1:45 sendoff but still make them without having to touch and go, then yes, you do know how to kick way better than your typical AG triathlete.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
I am not sure what exactly you are referring to with that question.Speed is relative.


Spoken like a true TI prophet. I have encountered many beautiful TI pool strokes over the years and if all one wants to do is swim reasonably well, not get faster and enjoy their pool time TI is awesome. Kudos for Terry in bringing a LOT more people into the world of water with his instruction. The problem is when his students want to get faster. They glide their way to 1:50 + 100's with 12 strokes/length scratching their head why they can't seem to get any faster. And I really feel for some of them too b/c some truly want to get faster and work hard at both technique AND the yardage it takes to progress, but they have absorbed the TI method like one of David Koresh's followers and wouldn't dare look at something else. Aesthetically it's a very nice looking stroke, but either TI is sending students out with the wrong info or the stroke method sucks balls for developing the basic skills to swim progressively faster freestyle. No one is ever going to swim fast(er) when they build fixed pauses into their stroke.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 16, 12 10:09
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
I've known a good number of fish over the years who would describe themselves as 'crappy kickers', and to a person, their idea of what constitutes a crappy kick would still blow just about any adult-onset swimmer out of the water.

If you're whining about how haaard it is to make 100 yards of kick on a 1:45 send-off but still make them without having to touch and go, then yes, you do know how to kick way better than your typical AG triathlete.

Agreed...:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [paul_tx] [ In reply to ]
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paul_tx wrote:
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.


I say that mainly because as a group they are so thin skinned that they'll go crying to administrators if you write something
they don't want to hear. That's certainly not HTFU.

Being fat and slow is one thing, but being a crybaby is another.

This hasn't really changed now has it?


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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To bring up another cycling analogy, what's the best way to get up a hill? Is the goal to take the lowest number of pedal strokes because that is absolutely the best way of getting up that hill always, or is the best way of doing it to play around with shifting until you're able to pedal with the least amount of effort while generating the best propulsion?

Just like there are spinners and mashers in cycling, I tend to see efficient and FAST swimming as a spectrum of sorts with the Thorpe/Sun/Hackett on one end and the Evans/Bennett/Manaudou on the other extreme. And all of those people spent a couple million meters really dialing in whether they were spinners or mashers.

If you're just starting out and have to look to the elites for someone to model from, look to the middle of that spectrum with I dunno, maybe Natalie Coughlin as a starting point if you can find footage of her going a 200 or more. And then as you get more into the sport, adjust from that point as needed.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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In my opinion, Terry is mostly correct when it comes to triathletes. Most triathletes start really learning how to swim late in life. Swimming is different from other sports in that the feel for the water is everything, and therefore technique becomes paramount. As a swimmer who did not grow up swimming competitively (or at all), there needs to be a great amount of time spent on technique. So, for this crowd, working on sprints or "going fast" in the water to prepare for a triathlon doesn't make much sense.

However, I believe Terry is ignoring the intermediate-advanced triathlete crowd. This is the group that have put in the countless hours in the pool and open water, doing drills and improving their stroke to the point where they have the "perfect" stroke for themselves (no such thing as perfect, but you can get to a certain personal level and it's YOUR perfect stroke). For these folks, who are of course far fewer in number than the beginners, it IS important to start working on speed, sprints, HIT, and not be so concerned with LSD, which can just turn into "junk yards" or meters at a certain point.

Check out the CrossFit endurance site for more tips on how to train for the swim if you are at this level. Although the workouts are pretty simple, they are effective and efficient as opposed to wasteful, 4,000 yard workouts which are wasting your time that could be spent on the bike or....reading the ST forums. :)

"Laugh At the Water and Make The Swim Your Friend"
http://triswimcoach.com
http://triathlonsprinttraining.net
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I feel like we have gone full circle on this thread.Many people on here were saying TI is too slow.I explained what I thought TI actually was and stated that it can be fast if learned correctly and practiced a lot.Then someone put the video of Magnassen on showing how fast"catch and pull" was.Then someone put the video of Yang was showing how fast Total Immersion was.I was not aware of either video.The thing I noticed was the large difference in strokes per length.After going back and forth on that for a while tigerpaws says,TI is TOO SLOW!So back to where we started,lol.GREAT FEEDBACK,lets hear more!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [triswimcoach] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats...TI + Crossfit.

Would you like to throw in a little something about "PCranks" as well?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [triswimcoach] [ In reply to ]
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triswimcoach wrote:
In my opinion, Terry is mostly correct when it comes to triathletes. Most triathletes start really learning how to swim late in life. Swimming is different from other sports in that the feel for the water is everything, and therefore technique becomes paramount. As a swimmer who did not grow up swimming competitively (or at all), there needs to be a great amount of time spent on technique. So, for this crowd, working on sprints or "going fast" in the water to prepare for a triathlon doesn't make much sense.


However, I believe Terry is ignoring the intermediate-advanced triathlete crowd. This is the group that have put in the countless hours in the pool and open water, doing drills and improving their stroke to the point where they have the "perfect" stroke for themselves (no such thing as perfect, but you can get to a certain personal level and it's YOUR perfect stroke). For these folks, who are of course far fewer in number than the beginners, it IS important to start working on speed, sprints, HIT, and not be so concerned with LSD, which can just turn into "junk yards" or meters at a certain point.

Check out the CrossFit endurance site for more tips on how to train for the swim if you are at this level. Although the workouts are pretty simple, they are effective and efficient as opposed to wasteful, 4,000 yard workouts which are wasting your time that could be spent on the bike or....reading the ST forums. :)


If only Michael Phelps had known this...it could have helped him considerably.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure TI works for some people. It doesn't work for me. It did give me a starting point however.
Watch people swim. There is no one size fits all. Whether it is my lack of flexibility etc etc I find a higher stroke count and shorter choppier stroke to be faster and less fatiguing for me than the TI model. This style, by pure luck, also works better in open water that isnt perfectly calm.

I dont think there needs to be a debate. If TI works for you then great use it. If it doen't then don't use it, something else will work for you. No right or wrong.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I love that quote,"fish(are)....'crappy kickers' ".They also don't have any arms! And yet when discussing swimming many people spend a large part of time discussing arms and legs,lol.Fish swim by snapping every muscle in their body in one smooth continous motion.That is EXACTLY the way Total Immersion works! You throw your arm forward,snap every muscle in your body,glide for a count then throw your other arm forward snap your muscles again(repeat as necessary,lol).The problem is it takes PERFECT TIMING to work if you really want to go fast(most do not acheive that timing).The dolphin kick works a lot like this too you just don't have to switch arms,that is why it is so fast.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Up to this point I wasn't sure if hotman637 was a troll or just confused. Now, not so much...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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jbank wrote:
Up to this point I wasn't sure if hotman637 was a troll or just confused. Now, not so much...

so which is it...troll or confused?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
I've known a good number of fish over the years who would describe themselves as 'crappy kickers', and to a person, their idea of what constitutes a crappy kick would still blow just about any adult-onset swimmer out of the water.

If you're whining about how haaard it is to make 100 yards of kick on a 1:45 sendoff but still make them without having to touch and go, then yes, you do know how to kick way better than your typical AG triathlete.

The average age group triathlete cannot average 1:45 per 100m with a wetsuit, fully tapered during a race....just to put this in perspective. For those that don't believe it, go to any race result on sportats and take the swim spilts of the median swimmer which we'd describe as the average age group triathlete....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
FLA Jill wrote:
DieTryin' wrote:

Excuse my ignorance (uneducated novice), but if Sun is heavily kick dependent what is Cochrane in lane 2? To my uneducated eye Sun's kick looks pretty tame.


An elite pool swimmer is generally so efficient at kicking that they can be very fast at it without looking like they're doing much. Laure Manaudou is like the queen of having a nicely propulsive but visually non-existent kick.

Good swim technique is not just about about arm movement or torso placement but goes all the way down to the toes.


Not necessarily as there are plenty of fast freestylers who don't kick very well. I know 3 guys at my club who swam 48-49 for 100 SCY in high school and yet can't kick fast at all. Also, I've exchanged emails with James Bonney who went 46.0 for the 100 and low-15 for the 1650, and he said he was a slow kicker but made up for it with his pull.

I would say that you can't really say what any given swimmer's kick is contributing unless you have knowledge of how fast he/she kicks. Sun Yang might have a strong kick or he might not...:)


I was the fastest freestyler on most of my swim teams, and also the slowest kicker. I'd lead the fastest lane for freestyle laps, then move down several lanes and go last for kick drills. Just the way some of us swim. Maybe my kick is only strong when coupled with the movement of the full stroke - who knows. I've been watching those Yang videos and find his efficiency amazing. I especially like how you can see that his hand glide sheds all the bubbles before he begins his actual catch. His competitors are dragging lots of air right into their catches.


I've been timing myself on 200s, swimming at about a 1 hour Ironman pace effort, comparing swimming Yang-style vs. regular. They are exactly the same speed for me, but the Yang-style is much smoother and less agitating. I'm definitely going to do it some more and see how it pans out


Terry is just a dude. Test out different styles, evolve over time, keep trying, enjoy the pool. :)

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I will try a new approach too. Who are you and why are you so keen on promoting TI?

You mentioned that Yang swims using a TI technique, although he isn't like the model swimmer, so maybe he isn't swimming with a TI technique?? Who knows, but you appear to be confused. But if I go on the TI website, I cannot find an accurate description of what TI actually is. Is it a philosophy, is it a series of drills, is it an actual style, is it a training methodology?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [M~] [ In reply to ]
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M~ wrote:
triswimcoach wrote:
In my opinion, Terry is mostly correct when it comes to triathletes. Most triathletes start really learning how to swim late in life. Swimming is different from other sports in that the feel for the water is everything, and therefore technique becomes paramount. As a swimmer who did not grow up swimming competitively (or at all), there needs to be a great amount of time spent on technique. So, for this crowd, working on sprints or "going fast" in the water to prepare for a triathlon doesn't make much sense.


However, I believe Terry is ignoring the intermediate-advanced triathlete crowd. This is the group that have put in the countless hours in the pool and open water, doing drills and improving their stroke to the point where they have the "perfect" stroke for themselves (no such thing as perfect, but you can get to a certain personal level and it's YOUR perfect stroke). For these folks, who are of course far fewer in number than the beginners, it IS important to start working on speed, sprints, HIT, and not be so concerned with LSD, which can just turn into "junk yards" or meters at a certain point.

Check out the CrossFit endurance site for more tips on how to train for the swim if you are at this level. Although the workouts are pretty simple, they are effective and efficient as opposed to wasteful, 4,000 yard workouts which are wasting your time that could be spent on the bike or....reading the ST forums. :)


If only Michael Phelps had known this...it could have helped him considerably.

Phelps is doing a lot more than 4,000 yard workouts.
However, he's not a triathlete, nor is he a beginner swimmer!

TI caters to the beginner. Can it make you faster if you are already past the beginner stage? Typically, no, but it can help fix flaws in your stroke that may be slowing you down.

There is a huge difference between someone who is doing say a 100 or 200 meter race (a sprint), and someone who is doing a 1 mile swim followed by a 30k bike and a 10k run. Here's an article I wrote a while back on this topic: http://ezinearticles.com/...wimming&id=44677

Cheers,
Kevin

"Laugh At the Water and Make The Swim Your Friend"
http://triswimcoach.com
http://triathlonsprinttraining.net
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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"mashers"
Ian Thorpe - 6'5"
Sun Yang - listed at 6'5"
Grant Hackett - 6'6"

"spinners"
Janet Evans - 5'6"
Laure Manaudou - 5'11"
Brooke Bennett - 5'6"


Mayhaps there is a pattern here? Hmmm...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Likely to some degree. Back before USA Swimming redesigned their web site and dumped a bunch of old content, they had a nice article from, I think, Jim Montgomery (or maybe it was Johnty Skinner) talking about how to take your height, wingspan, and a few other measurements and then use it as a first attempt for what your optimal stroke count per length should be.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [triswimcoach] [ In reply to ]
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triswimcoach wrote:

Check out the CrossFit endurance site for more tips on how to train for the swim if you are at this level. Although the workouts are pretty simple, they are effective and efficient as opposed to wasteful, 4,000 yard workouts which are wasting your time that could be spent on the bike or....reading the ST forums. :)

One of the funniest things I've read on ST lately.....thanks for the laughs!

Jay
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Yes,which am I,a troll or just confused? LOL. I am on here because I find swimming technique so interesting.
JasonHalifax says,"I cannot find an accurate description of what TI actually is".Neither could I! I first read the book,then talked to swimmers,one who even went to a TI seminar with Terry.Nobody seemed to know what it was(in simple terms anyway).So I practiced and tried to figure out how it worked.One reason few people do it is few have any idea what it is,lol.To me it is a technique that I have tried to explained a few times on here.The only way to understand it is to DO it.One way to look at it is that in many ways it is the opposite of"catch and pull".It is,as I say,"turn,push and glide".In order for"turn push and glide" to work is they have to THROW themselves into the push and SNAP into the turn and glide.If you do that without practice you will probably be all over the pool.So we have to practice and get the balance and power just right.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [rhayden] [ In reply to ]
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Rhayden,I like your style! The difference between you and others is you understand both styles and have done both and you prefer one,the shorter stroke model.That is great! I have zero problem with that! One thing I observed is that VERY FEW people understand and have tried both methods.I will watch swim classes(of different levels) and VERY FEW teach or are taught the 2 dramaticaly(IMO) different techniques.So no one has a choice.I want to give people the choice.Then they can do whatever they want!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Boys are taller than girls?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Nope. The pattern is that Americans are short, other nationalities are tall. It's obvious!

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
In Reply To:
ive got a long way to go before I can swim as fast as my coach who doesn't really train anymore at all.

that would suggest to me that technique is still my major limiter

Im at like 10x100@1:40 he is at infinityx100 at 1:10

heh


<nonsense deleted due to wrong reading>


I thought you must have Haydn Woolley as your coach, until I read how slow your coach is :-)

Haydn hardly swims anymore, but his technique is awesome! he looks like he's gliding along, then you check the clock and find out he's really haulin' ass! He FLIES along, at just 8 strokes per 25 metres!

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Gerry Rodrigues] [ In reply to ]
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John Flannigan? Sorry, who is that?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Learn] [ In reply to ]
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Learn wrote:
John Flanagan? Sorry, who is that?

He is usually the first AG'er overall out of the water at Kona in around 46-47 min. Haven't checked 2011's results but he was the fastest age group swimmer for several yrs during 2000-10, and maybe even back in the 90s.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]
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Quote from that youtube clip:
"30 hrs a week in the water, 100k a week."

Puts it in perspective.


[ The sign of intelligence is you are constantly wondering. Idiots are always dead sure about every damn thing they are doing in their life. - Vasudev ]
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [planetsbr] [ In reply to ]
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Just to be clear. I didn´t post the Yang video as an example of TI technique. I just thought Yang´s way of swimming 1500m would be more relevant to the discussion than Magnussen´s way of swimming 100m.

It would be good to hear Denis Cotterell´s thoughts on long-distance freestyle technique, he coached Hackett and subsequently Sun Yang.

I absolutely love the way both guys swim BTW.

-------------------------------
´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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"fish......don't have any arms! And yet when discussing swimming many people spend a large part of time discussing arms and legs,lol.Fish swim by snapping every muscle in their body in one smooth continous motion

EUREKA! I never thought of it that way. Now we just have to teach fish Chi running and they'll running sub 18 minute 5k's in no time!

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [squid] [ In reply to ]
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Funny how you should mention running and fish.I not only swim using total immersion swimming I also run using a different running technique,but not Chi running.I use the method that Cliff Young(at age 61) used to win the first race from Melbourne to Sydney.He and I hold our arms down by our hips.It brings your weight down,forward and I come of the front of my foot better.My hands and arms help drive my hips forward.Check out his technique on Youtube.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Funny how you should mention running and fish.I not only swim using total immersion swimming I also run using a different running technique,but not Chi running.I use the method that Cliff Young(at age 61) used to win the first race from Melbourne to Sydney.He and I hold our arms down by our hips.It brings your weight down,forward and I come of the front of my foot better.My hands and arms help drive my hips forward.Check out his technique on Youtube.

May I respectfully (genuinely) enquire what your 1500m swim and 10k run times are? Or was that posted?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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John flannagan has been racing pro. He led andy potts out of the water in his only race in kona as a pro. He was a former pro/elite open water swimmer who retired, then made a comeback when they added the OW 10k to the olympics, and came up a bit shy of a spot on the team at the trials. He was maybe 8th or something. He then went to triathlon.As an AGer he went 47:02 in kona, then 20:55 in clearwater the following month. Then he turned pro...he went 44 at louisville and 48 at coeur d'Alene.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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mattbk wrote:
John flannagan has been racing pro. He led andy potts out of the water in his only race in kona as a pro. He was a former pro/elite open water swimmer who retired, then made a comeback when they added the OW 10k to the olympics, and came up a bit shy of a spot on the team at the trials. He was maybe 8th or something. He then went to triathlon.As an AGer he went 47:02 in kona, then 20:55 in clearwater the following month. Then he turned pro...he went 44 at louisville and 48 at coeur d'Alene.

OK, well, thanks for the informative post. I knew he was a great swimmer but did not have all the info that you've provided. Going 44 for 3800m is very impressive. Just out of curiosity, how old is he now??? Do you know where he swam in college???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Auburn. Heres is an article Alex Kostich wrote for active...

http://m.active.com/..._is_in_Wisconsin.htm
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Shg101] [ In reply to ]
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Never had them timed.I was swimming using the"catch and pull"method for months and my shoulders were sore and I was slow and did not like it.Then I had to spend months learning TI.I am still not fast but like I TI much better and is so much easier IMO,that is why I posted here to get that message across.I ran a marathon in 5 hours ten minutes,very slow but then started the"Cliff Young shuffle" and is taking awhile to adapt but I think will work better.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Never had them timed.I was swimming using the"catch and pull"method for months and my shoulders were sore and I was slow and did not like it.Then I had to spend months learning TI.I am still not fast but like I TI much better and is so much easier IMO,that is why I posted here to get that message across.I ran a marathon in 5 hours ten minutes,very slow but then started the"Cliff Young shuffle" and is taking awhile to adapt but I think will work better.

Wasn't your original point that TI was fast? The thread was originally about the debate as to whether TI was applicable to both beginners and advanced (faster swimmers). So if you aren't fast after your years of TI study, how exactly are you concluding that it is fast and good for fast swimmers?

As an aside, I too read the TI stuff and enjoyed it for what it was worth. I've since incorporated a lot of non-TI elements in my swimming and am much faster now.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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mattbk wrote:
Auburn. Heres is an article Alex Kostich wrote for active...

http://m.active.com/..._is_in_Wisconsin.htm

Thanks Matt. Those were some pretty impressive workouts he was doing!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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I am slow at swimming,biking AND running,LOL.However I am swimming faster doing TI then I was doing"catch and pull".Total Immersion makes way more sense and everyone should at least learn the basic theory and then apply other concepts if they want,like you did.And as I said it usually takes a lot of practice to get fast.Doing catch and pull if you want to go fast,just swing your arms faster.With Total Immersion to get faster your entire body has to function in one smooth motion,like a fish,lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I admit I know nothing about swimming (been swimming 2 years, last IM 1'12"), but been intrigued by the whole TI vs 'normal swimming'. I've been watching the Sun Yang WR on youtube and listening to the US commentators say how far he stretches, glides, doesn't kick much and drags his legs compared to the main competitors.

Is Yang a "TI" swimmer? He's hip driven, sinks his head under the water when not breathing, glides and apart from the start and his sprint(!) at the end, doesn't kick much (according to the commentators).

Whatever you call it, it's pretty incredible.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [DieTryin'] [ In reply to ]
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Dietryin',I think you have answered your own question!And the answer sounds like yes,although others on here have said he is not"textbook" Total Immersion.But to me the big question is not if some world class swimmer is TI or not but does the average person understand TI and apply it to his or her swim technique.Just about everyone I have shown Total Immersion to and THEY HAVE TRIED IT(most of the faster"catch and pull" people won't really try it,I guess they don't want to re-learn their technique),say it is WAY easier! It IS way easier in my opinion and that has a lot more benefit to your average person then the pro because the pro is a WAY better athlete and he will go fast no matter what technique he uses.(And the average person will go slower then the pro no matter what technique HE OR SHE USES TOO,lol)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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So... reading your posts has been quite humorous. You keep saying TI is the most efficient, but I don't think you know what the word means. Efficient means achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense. Where is the "maximum productivity"? You equate TI to aerobars. Aerobars are not about making things easy. They are about going faster. They are not for causual riding where you can soft pedal without the wind bothering you and your ability to smell the flowers on a scenic tour. You say TI is necessary because water is 100's of times thicker than air. This means every time you TI glide, you have 100's of the times of the force of air acting against you to stop you. When you ride a bike you can stop pedaling while at speed for moments and not loose too much speed. Imagine stopping pedaling and trying to coast if you were riding under water, or stomping one pedal and coasting, then stomping the other and so on. Imagine water being denser and more viscous. What if you were swimming in caramel like that candy bar commercial? This would be 1000's of times thicker than water, which is "100's of times thicker than air". Would TI be even more relevant in this situation? You say Sun Yang is swimming TI and making it easier and more efficient. You think this guy isn't in extreme amounts of pain while breaking records and winning races? He is pulling hard and getting in sufficient kicking to drive his hips. I am sure he is on the verge of vomiting the whole 14:34... And please stop using "lol" at the end of every sentence...unless you are a 4th grade girl, in which case carry on...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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mattbk wrote:
So... reading your posts has been quite humorous. You keep saying TI is the most efficient, but I don't think you know what the word means. Efficient means achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense. Where is the "maximum productivity"? You equate TI to aerobars. Aerobars are not about making things easy. They are about going faster. They are not for causual riding where you can soft pedal without the wind bothering you and your ability to smell the flowers on a scenic tour. You say TI is necessary because water is 100's of times thicker than air. This means every time you TI glide, you have 100's of the times of the force of air acting against you to stop you. When you ride a bike you can stop pedaling while at speed for moments and not loose too much speed. Imagine stopping pedaling and trying to coast if you were riding under water, or stomping one pedal and coasting, then stomping the other and so on. Imagine water being denser and more viscous. What if you were swimming in caramel like that candy bar commercial? This would be 1000's of times thicker than water, which is "100's of times thicker than air". Would TI be even more relevant in this situation? You say Sun Yang is swimming TI and making it easier and more efficient. You think this guy isn't in extreme amounts of pain while breaking records and winning races? He is pulling hard and getting in sufficient kicking to drive his hips. I am sure he is on the verge of vomiting the whole 14:34... And please stop using "lol" at the end of every sentence...unless you are a 4th grade girl, in which case carry on...

X10...Yang was no doubt in extreme pain the whole time. He is not "gliding" at all in the sense of TI instruction. This whole discussion of Yang being a closet TI swimmer is just absurd.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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Your first line reads"reading your posts has been quite humorous".Your last line reads"stop using"lol"at the end of every sentence".I AGREE my posts are funny,that is why I used"lol".Anyhow a lot of debate seems to be over the use of the word"efficiency".You said it means MAXIMUM productivity with MINIMUM wasted effort.In terms of racing neither one of these goals are absolute in my opinion.Winning the race,pretty much by definition,is maximum productivity.BUT just become someone wins does not mean they used minimum wasted effort.AND just because they used minimum wasted effort does not mean they won.My point was Total Immersion PROPERLY DONE,wastes FAR LESS EFFORT then"catch and pull".Nobody seems to have much problem with that statement(that I can remember).The issue is TI does not acheive MAXIMUM PRODUCTIVITY.In my opinion that is because not enough top swimmers use Total Immersion,if more people used it more TI users would win(IMO the times would be as fast or faster but we would see) .As I(and others on here) have seen, many people who use TI now are slow and would be slow NO MATTER WHAT technique they used.And same with the good athletes,they would be fast no matter what technique THEY used.To see which technique is best everyone just has to LEARN BOTH TECHNIQUES.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
I am slow at swimming,biking AND running,LOL.However I am swimming faster doing TI then I was doing"catch and pull".Total Immersion makes way more sense and everyone should at least learn the basic theory and then apply other concepts if they want,like you did.And as I said it usually takes a lot of practice to get fast.Doing catch and pull if you want to go fast,just swing your arms faster.With Total Immersion to get faster your entire body has to function in one smooth motion,like a fish,lol.

I feel your coaching pre-TI may have sold you somewhat short if that's what you believe proper non-TI swimming is.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
The issue is TI does not acheive MAXIMUM PRODUCTIVITY.In my opinion that is because not enough top swimmers use Total Immersion,if more people used it more TI users would win(IMO the times would be as fast or faster but we would see) .


So you think the USOC and folks in Colorado Springs just have it in for Terry and are snubbing him? It's a worldwide conspiracy of coaches and elite swimmers to not use TI, even though they could be faster? That's brilliant. I think you have uncovered a new 60 Minutes piece: "The TI Debacle: Elite swimming and their vendetta against speed".

One would think someone on the planet would rebel from the overlord swim coaches forcing their athletes to use their current approach and step up to the plate with this 'faster stroke'.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 20, 12 5:24
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I suppose Russel Mark of USA Swimming just made shit up on his study showing that long axis stroke elite swimmers actually spend less time on their sides than what current coaching conventional wisdom says they should.

Eh. I'll take Terri McKeever & Eddie Reese's coaching results over TL's any day.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
I suppose Russel Mark of USA Swimming just made shit up on his study showing that long axis stroke elite swimmers actually spend less time on their sides than what current coaching conventional wisdom says they should.

Eh. I'll take Terri McKeever & Eddie Reese's coaching results over TL's any day.

Exactly. This will be detailed in the 60 minutes piece as a huge conspiracy though in an attempt to keep TI down.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
In my opinion that is because not enough top swimmers use Total Immersion,if more people used it more TI users would win(IMO the times would be as fast or faster but we would see) .As I(and others on here) have seen, many people who use TI now are slow and would be slow NO MATTER WHAT technique they used.And same with the good athletes,they would be fast no matter what technique THEY used.To see which technique is best everyone just has to LEARN BOTH TECHNIQUES.

So it's just a coincidence that TI swimmers are slow, and fast swimmers are non TI. Your lines of reasoning are just silly, ie the aerobar comparison. And lowering effort levels? The point is not to lower effort, it is to elevate the effort you can sustain over a given period. But this last reasoning in the quote above...this is just preposterously ignorant. Enough to make my head explode...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MXRy9kWvuU
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is we are all arguing THEORY.Studies,"conspiracies",Total Immersion,"catch and pull" are all theories.Just about every pool I have been to has at least one person,(usually a man.ha ha),who talks and talks theory of swimming.Nothing wrong with that but does not mean much in the end.The important thing is to ACT ON THE THEORIES and see what works best for you.I will give an example.I had a friend who took a"catch and pull"lesson.He picks up things really quickly and he was swimming very well using that method.I suggested that he TRY my"turn and push"method.I said"instead of reaching above your head and PULLING your way through the water,lower your head,TURN your shoulders(ideally 90 degrees)and PUSH your way through the water"(that is really the major difference!).Instead of arguing he simply did what I said(amazing I know!).What happened?He had a much smoother,easier more powerful stroke and glided through the water way easier IMO(going just as fast).The ONLY way to really test that story is to lower your head,turn your shoulders(ideally 90 degrees)and push your way though the water!! It's not rocket science!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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After beginning triathlon four years ago and swimming all out with bad form, TI made a huge change in my performance.

BUT if you swim a 1:50/100 in training why would you expect to do any better in a race? Makes no sense.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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It's all about truthiness after all.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
The problem is we are all arguing THEORY.Studies,"conspiracies",Total Immersion,"catch and pull" are all theories.Just about every pool I have been to has at least one person,(usually a man.ha ha),who talks and talks theory of swimming.Nothing wrong with that but does not mean much in the end.The important thing is to ACT ON THE THEORIES and see what works best for you.I will give an example.I had a friend who took a"catch and pull"lesson.He picks up things really quickly and he was swimming very well using that method.I suggested that he TRY my"turn and push"method.I said"instead of reaching above your head and PULLING your way through the water,lower your head,TURN your shoulders(ideally 90 degrees)and PUSH your way through the water"(that is really the major difference!).Instead of arguing he simply did what I said(amazing I know!).What happened?He had a much smoother,easier more powerful stroke and glided through the water way easier IMO(going just as fast).The ONLY way to really test that story is to lower your head,turn your shoulders(ideally 90 degrees)and push your way though the water!! It's not rocket science!

Again, you do not understand what the words you use mean. I would classify what you term "catch and pull" as not a theory, but a law in the scientific sense. TI is not even a theory, but a hypothesis. A hypothesis that has been shot down by the majority of the authority on swimming in regards to efficient swimming (which is dependent upon being fast). I know it may be your job to come on here and attempt to lull gullible triathletes/swimmers into using the "aerobar of swimming", but you lack any logical reasoning whatsoever. Maybe you were instructed to sound ignorant so as to come off as some average everyday person trying to swim...and voila!) TI became your aerobar...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [running1457] [ In reply to ]
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I started swimming using TI a few years ago, after several years of trying to figure out a good from by myself. Based on my experience, I think TI has given some positive contribution to swimming, but offset by what I think is a wrong idea of what efficient swimming is. First the good...

The positive contribution was to illustrate, in terms that one can easily understad, some basic freestyle form. For example, before TI I used to hear widely differing opinions on how much one should rotate during freestyle or backstroke. For example, I have a friend, who in her teens, more than 15 years ago, used to do competitive swimming, which swims flat and does not rotate much. That way of swimming, while good for her, was too hard for me. By ‘allowing’ rotation in free and back, TI has made things a lot easier for me. Of course, this is not only a TI approach, but Terry Laughlin has made these pieces of information more accessible.

Now, the bad...

Several years after, I find several negative aspects in my swimming that I believe derive, at least in part, from TI, as they are largely related to the several hypotheses about swimming that are ingrained in TI, like press buoy, leading with the elbow, glide, 2bk is preferable, etc. For example, after 2 years swimming with a 2bk, I found a flutter is more comfortable for me in the pool. It is different in the sea. I still kept a horizontal body position with a 2bk, but it just feels easier, and more rythmycal, with a light flutter. I can imagine som Ti swimmer saying ‘oh you are unbalanced, crap, you are doing it wrong’. Very well, so are many others. And it’s not that we have all spent 10 minutes on it. And it’s not that we are all incapable, as we can otherwise bike, run or do some other more complex things in life rather well.

Another example: the glide kills the flow of the stroke. It just destroys it. Water is just too dense to glide effectively, as it has been discussed here before. I find that by keeping my lead arm moving, the stroke flows much better and in spite of a higher stroke count, I can swim longer, faster and more comfortably. Isn’t this, by definition, a more efficient stroke?

I agree with a previous poster that TI is an elegant hypothesis, but falsified by the experience of many swimmers and coaches. Apart from Shinij and Terry, I am still to see a TI swimmer who is (i) smooth AND (ii) fast. Most people who swim TI appear to me to be imprisoned into some analytical, dogmatic box. They justify this, as hotman does, by postulating that most people practise wrongly. When I was practicing martial arts, there was always this talk of remote masters in inaccessible regions of China imparting exclusice knowledge for a select few. Well, that was not Kung fu, if the Kung fu 99.9% of the other practicioners in the world was something different. Now tell me, if the vast majority of TI swimmers are slow, and frankly, not that smooth at all in the water, where is the real TI? If it is some ideal, platonic form then that is no good to me.

The thing that bugs me the most is this arrogant and vaguely puritan idea that TI is THE minful approach (whatever mindful means), while other swimmers just splash and plod along, without regard to form. I don’t see this. Instead, I see many young kids in the local pool, and many other pools, having fund and swimming very, very well. They don’t splash much, they don’t appear ungracious, and they can be fast. I don’t hear them going overly paranoid over years about the angle of the forearm respect to the head or the absolutely perfect timinh required for a kick, and how everything has to be perfect to breathe comfortably (to see this, check the TI board, any randomly picked thread should do).

They swim just fine, and kick just fine, and breath just fine. Without this entire obsession about years of training, neural imprinting, etc. that seems to me to be an excuse for the fact that TI simply is neither easy to learn, nor effective. In fact, I found at some point that all the attention to the details of the stroke can bordeline the obsessive, and make it very, very hard to achieve the purported smoothness. And I know enough fast and clever athletes who have put some effort into TI, and are otherwise successful in other techincal endevours, but somehow, with TI seem to just keep trying but going nowhere, until they give up and then get better again.

Surely, the proof of the pudding should be in the eating…
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [pat80] [ In reply to ]
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pat80 wrote:
Another example: the glide kills the flow of the stroke. It just destroys it. Water is just too dense to glide effectively, as it has been discussed here before. I find that by keeping my lead arm moving, the stroke flows much better and in spite of a higher stroke count, I can swim longer, faster and more comfortably. Isn’t this, by definition, a more efficient stroke?

Multiply this factor many times over when transferring to OW as well...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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I am NOT being paid to promote Total Immersion.If I was I would probably be fired by now because no one seems to understand what I am saying.You have a good point,I DO lack logical reasoning because TI is NOT logical at least according to"the authorities on swimming".The way to understand an illogical"hypothesis"is not logic but action.So FOLLOW the simple steps put forward in my last post,THEN get back on here and call me a fool if you want,ha ha!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I am finding your posts to be most entertaining. Please tell me about how to get the perfect timing of the kick. And the Push in the stroke, I'm not quite cler on that. Am i to push forwards or backwards ? Please help so i can incorporate this amazing technique into my swimming and throw out my years of learning and training with the inefficient catch and pull technique.

Thanks!

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 21, 12 5:04
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
I am NOT being paid to promote Total Immersion.If I was I would probably be fired by now because no one seems to understand what I am saying.You have a good point,I DO lack logical reasoning because TI is NOT logical at least according to"the authorities on swimming".The way to understand an illogical"hypothesis"is not logic but action.So FOLLOW the simple steps put forward in my last post,THEN get back on here and call me a fool if you want,ha ha!

Ohhhh...now I get it! I'll get right on that! You have convinced me. Your lack of logical reasoning has nothing to do with promoting TI, but is about the conclusions you draw and ways you try to make points. "The aerobar of swimming", "...many people who use TI now are slow and would be slow NO MATTER WHAT technique they used.And same with the good athletes,they would be fast no matter what technique THEY used.To see which technique is best everyone just has to LEARN BOTH TECHNIQUES." I could take multiple quotes from every post of yours and compile them into a quite comical compilation. The lack of logic is not that you think TI is god's gift to swimmers (a gift that only the slow and will always be slow no matter what technique they use have accepted) it is that all of your own personal ways of reasoning and saying things is bat shit crazy in a logical sense... You are so out there most people won't even bother to respond to you, they will sit in front of their computer shake their heads and chuckle. A couple feel compelled, some bored, and others just fell like toying with you like a bug a cat has found...

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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Started swimming at age 47 under the instruction of TI coach and although not classified as a fast swimmer made significant progress. Have raced IM louisville 4 times, first 3 times using TI method. My swim splits were 1:22 in 08, 1:21 in 09, and1:20 in 10. Before IM lou in august of 11 I attended a Gary Hall swim camp. He revamped my stroke completely in 2 1/2 days. long story short, swim split in 11 was 1:13.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
no one seems to understand what I am saying.You have a good point,I DO lack logical reasoning

We do understand what you are saying, it's just dead wrong.

As to your second sentence.....it's the first assessment you have correctly made the entire thread.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasonHalifax says"amazing technique".
Tigerpaws says"its dead wrong".
That to me is the interesting thing about TI verses"catch and pull"there is very little middle ground.People either love TI or hate it.The BIG problem with TI is Terry makes TI WAY WAY WAY TOO COMPLICATED!! I said that way back on my first post.That is why there is so much debate about TI,IMO.
Also in my opinion the only way to solve this conundrum is NOT arguing,ha ha,but to get in the pool and put your self into a zen like state where you FORGET ALL ASSUMTIONS about swimming!! Then do the following:put your head and in the water,TURN your shoulders(ideally 90 degrees) and PUSH your way through the water.In short,TURN,PUSH AND GLIDE.This is not rocket science!Kick any way you want,breath any way you want,those are details.Do this for a couple of laps then get back on here and make a report.FEEL FREE to call me a fool,ha ha.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I tried your amazing technique for a couple of laps, and wow, was it ever easy! I was swimming about 20 secs per 50 slower than with my normal catch and pull, but i'm sure that is only because i don't yet have the perfect timing it takes to be fast lol!

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [pat80] [ In reply to ]
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pat80 wrote:
Now tell me, if the vast majority of TI swimmers are slow, and frankly, not that smooth at all in the water, where is the real TI? If it is some ideal, platonic form then that is no good to me.

Fantastic use of the word, 'platonic.' Bravo
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Jason! You actually tried what I suggested! That is ALL I ask! If you want to go back to"catch and pull",that is fine.Or use a combination. As I said people should do what they want. I simply want people to TRY,"turn push and glide" then they can make make a CHOICE!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I,m not here to critsize TI It has some drills that I still use, and it can be very benificial to the beginning swimmer. However, If reaching your maximum potential for speed in the water is your goal, TI will not get you there. I've been swimming for 6 years and had completely plateaued in terms of getting faster. As I stated in an earlier post, I spent a couple of days working under Gary Halls instruction and the first thing he did was to get me out of the "glide" phase of my stroke. What feels like a glide sensation in the TI method is actually a quick deceleration in speed. Water is 800 times more dense than air, the sheer laws of physics will explain the obvious decelaration. Unless you have the powerfull kick of a Micheal Phelps there is no way you can come close to maintaining the inertia in your stroke. I've become more of a shoulder driven freestyler as opposed to a hip driven stroke and in the past year have increased my speed tremendously. The problem with the glide is that your stroke becomes a series of starts and stops and you lose the speed or inertia from the pull phase of the stroke. Anyone who has ever missed a flip turn in the pool understands the loss of inertia and how hard it is to get back up to speed.Most all fast freestylers have fairly high stroke rates even your pro swimmers in triathlon have high stroke rates. In the past year, I have dramatically improved my speed by working on eliminating the drag points in my stroke and increasing my stroke rate.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cubfan24] [ In reply to ]
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Cubfan74,you make a good point. I think that many share your concern(including me when I first got into TI) about the"glide". It is tricky to explain, as my posts have proved.I will try using the anology of boxing and see if that helps(it may not,ha ha).There are many ways of punching and boxing and this is NOT ment to explain fighting but a way to help understand TI.Think of"catch and pull" has a boxer throwing a flurry of punches in quick succession.Think of Total Immersion as a fighter"turning"his shoulder as far as he can,"pushing"his fist,arm and hip as hard as he can and"gliding" or following through with all his weight.We can swim or box either way.If we come out and fight with a flurry of punches we can win the fight and as I say if you want to swim or fight that way,fine with me.But the"turn,push and glide"method has large advantages if you fight OR swim.Every punch OR stroke has WAY MORE power,your ENTIRE body is involved,not just your arms.Try it,throw your whole body into a punch as opposed to just your arm,the difference is huge.Because it has so much power you USES less strokes therefore less energy.The glide is the follow through.IF you turn your shoulders 90 degrees your power will be maximum AND your glide will be smoother easier and faster.People either don't push hard enough OR don't turn there shoulders enough.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Again, when it comes to the glide in water it is almost nonexistent. Even at the speed of a Micheal phelps in the water, he may approach about 3 1/2 mph at full speed but if he stops his stroke at full speed ( stops pulling and kicking) he will come to a complete stop in 0.9 of a second. I can also use the example that after Phelps dives off the starting blocks, he is at about 16 mph. When he hits the water he instantly slows to that 3/12 mph which is about his top speed. My point is water as I mentioned earlier is 800 times more dense than water. there is no speed in the glide, if there were, certainly there would be an accomplished swimmer somewhere in the world who would use it. Every swim team from grade school through the olympic caliber swimmers are coached to increase their stroke rate to get faster. TI is a comfortable and smooth way to swim but it is not a fast way to swim. Your boxing analogy really dosn"t fit what a good swimmer with a high stroke rate is really doing, I've converted from a TI swimmer to more of a shoulder driven high stroke rate swimmer and have become much faster. your example of a high stroke rate swimmer not using body rotation and generating power from the core is inncorrect. In my case, I generate most of my power from strong core rotation,and a full reach. I just do it a lot faster than a TI swimmer. You also stated that the body and shoulder rotation should be to 90 degrees, no fast swimmer that I've ever seen rotates that far. that is simply to far in my opinion to maintain any leverage in your stroke and keep the forward inertia fast enough to keep ypu high in the water. TI is a great stroke for a nice comfortable long swim that takes little energy, but as I stated earlier it is simply not fast. If it were, someone certainly would have won a race somewhere using it.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cubfan24] [ In reply to ]
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Good feedback Cubfan24! We were sort of at this impass earlier in this thread. Then someone posted Magnussen winning a race using"catch and pull".He was FAST,high in the water and did about 37 strokes per length.Then someone else posted a video of Sun Yang winning a race using TI(although some said it was not"text book"TI).He was lower in the water,had a longer stroke(about 29 strokes per length).As I say you can win with either.If you are faster with"catch and pull"by all means do it.I am not arguing that everyone should do TI,but everyone should TRY it.I think the major difference between TI and"catch and pull"is HOW you get fast.You want to get fast with"catch and pull"swing your arms faster,do more strokes,and get higher in the water.You want to get fast doing TI,get lower in the water, THROW your arm forward and SNAP every muscle in your body with PERFECT TIMING!It is a LOT easier to swing your arms faster then perfect your timing and that is why most do"catch and pull".
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a complete non swimmer. I'm still slow too.

I started out just flailing on my own when I did my first TRI 2 years ago in June. I then went the TI route and read, watched the videos and did the drills. The one thing I did learn from TI was balance. And I also got to where I could swim the distance but at a pace that box turtles would laugh at.

Then I did finding freestyle last year and did drills that improved my stroke rate. I got a bit quicker (it's all relative).

Now I'm going to master swimming, and I'm finally learning how to pull properly. I'm getting faster still.

Honestly, I don't think TI alone would have gotten me to the point I am today. It sure would have sucked on my last TRI in the chop against a decent current. I don't think either school of thought is a complete answer. I think balance, rotation, and a good pull are all needed to be a quick to fast swimmer. I think TI only addresses part of that puzzle. My current Master's swim coach is addressing many different parts of the puzzle too. I'm one of the slower people in my master's swimming, but I'm far from being the slowest on race day. I encountered a woman at the hotel pool (my wife works at this hotel and they have a nice 25m, yes meter, indoor pool), and she was doing perfect TI drills. She was also much leaner than I am. She also didn't swim laps as quickly as I was and she was also just as out of breath as I was. When I was swimming 300m repeats, I was marginally quicker. When I finished with my 50m sprints though, I was just plain faster. If I follow the advice of my coach and keep training, I will soon be swimming my 300m repeats at the same speed I can do 50m repeats now. There is no way that would ever happen with just TI.

And honestly hotman, you are probably arguing with a few people that can literally swim circles around you in open water here. There are quite a few tools on ST, but there are also a lot of plain fast triathletes around here. And while triathletes aren't the best swimmers, a lot of them are pretty dang fast in the water. Tomorrow in the first lane a bunch of guys will be swimming 1:10 to 1:15 pace all day long. I"m going to be in the 2:00 lane, lane 6. I hope in another 6 months, I can move to lane 5. I bet the average TI swimmer would get lapped repeatedly in lane 6.

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to see you made it out of TI with your brain intact;) For anyone who wants to read evidence based articles on why TI can't and won't lead to fast swimming feel free to read. Evidence based beyond anecdotal and the glaring fact you don't find fast TI swimmers>>>> to the kind of evidence from guys with pocket protectors and lots of letters behind their names. I realize it's a bit different than 'LOL' and boxing analogies so mea culpa for upping the ante with respect to gray matter utilization. Oustanding site with tons of studies from limb/water velocities, drag and even on to the psychological frontiers.

Read a neat one detailing how swimming short course vs long can lead to changes in fitness and stroke rate/length. I knew I always felt different beyond swimming longer b/t turns when long course opened up, but never considered the other aspects. Long course pool opens this weekend! Damn scy drives me nuts vs lcm.

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/toussai1.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/schnitzl.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/biomechs/keys.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/fernande.htm
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 24, 12 7:32
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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Shush, don't bring actual swimming into it. I'm learning everything I need to know about swimming by watching old Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard fights.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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AnthonyS,many others have said what you do,that you take the best from both methods and that is fine.The difficulty I have with this approach is that the MAJOR techniques of the two styles DIRECTLY CONTRADICT EACH OTHER.You mention rotation and balance from Total Immersion and the pull from"catch and pull".If I rotate my shoulders a lot(pretty close to 90 degrees) and then try to reach above my head to get a good"catch and pull"my speed falls WAY OFF.The two motions tend to work against each other.That may be why people say gliding does not work. In my opinion I then have one of two options,either reduce my shoulder rotation and get a better"catch and pull" OR keep a large rotation and enter the water close to head and PUSH my way through the water.It is far easier for the average person to make make a quick improvement in speed by reducing shoulder rotation and increase stroke count then it is to perfect the timing required for a fast"turn push and glide".
You mention"touch typing"on your post and I think that applies a little to swimming.Typing has two main methods,just like swimming.In typing it is"hunt and peck" OR touch typing.Just like swimming people can be fast with both methods(Issac Asimov was amazingly fast with hunt and peck).With a LITTLE practice the average person will be faster with"hunt and peck" because he can see the keys.Touch typing requires steps that are COUNTER INTUITIVE(just like Total Immersion).One step is you can't LOOK AT THE KEYS. And of course touch typing takes WAY WAY more practice but
virtually everyone admits touch typing is WAY better.Of course as I say,practice TI and see for yourself.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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I found a video of MJuric swimming the "TI" at my local pool a few years ago....I wonder if he would kill m if I was to post it.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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R10C wrote:
I found a video of MJuric swimming the "TI" at my local pool a few years ago....I wonder if he would kill m if I was to post it.


I love watching Total Diversion swim clips. 'Watch how pretty this is, but don't time my laps please."
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 24, 12 9:29
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Funny you mention counter intuitive and repeat your push and turn argument. First of all touch typing is like this Droid or an iPhone where you cannot feel the keys. Hunting and pecking is more akin to a nonswimner thrashing wildly. TI would be like typing while meditating and taking lots of relaxation breaks. Typing is a skill. I can type faster than you can hunt and peck.

Your fallacy is that you assume only TI provides swim power via the core. Well that isn't true. I challenge you to put up or shut up as they say in auto racing. Let's see your mad TI speed. I'm a slow swimmer but I guarantee most everyone on here can swim faster than you. Let's see some vids if your blazing lap times. Heck if you are near Dallas I'll buy your guest pass and you can come wow local triathletes in person.

TI taught me balance and rotation, but I had a super crappy pull. Why not take balance, rotation, and add a better pull too it? This is where you completely miss the mark by a mile. You can't punch through water more effectively than you can pull through it. I know TI recommends the fist drill. I still do that one. But go put on some paddles and demonstrate your awesome punching and gliding skill. Then for fun go try it headed into the wind in open water.

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I looked at those studies you posted.Talk about gobblety-gook! Swimming is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!Just about the only sentence that made any sense was this,"in moving the body forward the swimmer also moves water backwards".Hearing that sentence people might think,"the MORE and FASTER I move water backwards, the faster I go forward". That is exactly the theory of catch and pull. And as i say,you can go fast doing it that way IF you want to WASTE A HUGE AMOUNT OF ENERGY. If you want to do it the easy way do"turn push and glide". Many on here seem to be hysterical because TI is"too slow".If TI is slow it is because people are not DOING IT RIGHT!!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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AnthonyS,your sentence,"why not take balance,rotation and add a better pull too?" does not quite work because the BEST balance and rotation technique CONTRADICTS the BEST pull technique.In other words you can't have your cake and eat it too,ha ha.To the extent you do one you have to compromise on the other.You want to see Total Immersion done FAST,watch Sun Yang set a world record in the 1500 meter freestyle.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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so for those bashing on TI, where do i go to learn how to swim properly? and fast?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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The have your cake and eat analogy is old and stupid. If I eat my cake I have it in my stomach.

I want to see you swim not Sun Yang. I've seen his video. How about him versus Taylor Ports at Kona? I wont get to see that either. Like most brainwashed cultists you will never out up or shut up, will you?

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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Hotman, If you think Sun Yang is a TI swimmer, then you are deluded beyond redemption. There are so many different styles displayed by elite swimmers, you cannot possibly believe that by cherry picking the one that suits your (messed up) thesis, you are making a decent argument.

If TI is fast, please post links to youtube videos, if you are not comfortable posting one of yourself. Also post a list of records by swimmers coached with the TI method, which must surely be very long if you are right. Show us the evidence, then there will be no need for arguing.
Last edited by: pat80: May 24, 12 15:17
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Sun Yang doesn't swim TI. He swims with an extreme EVF, and he does have a pause at the front of his stroke, but that isn't TI. He rides higher in the water, he uses his legs, and he certainly does not rotate his shoulders to 90 degrees. TI also says to "Penetrate the water with your fingers angled down and fully extend your arm well beneath your head. Extend it lower and further than you think you should." Yang keeps his hand very close to the surface until the catch. I also dont see anything resembling him pushing his way through the water.

It's easy to look at one or 2 aspects of a stroke and say "Oh, that must be TI".

one other thing. Most real swimmers are CONSTANTLY working on their stroke. If something works, the feedback is immediate (faster times). If it doesn't work, it gets thrown out. A lot of guys who swim do something pretty close to TI every day, its called warm-up. Another thing they do which is close to TI is catch-up drill. Neither one is fast.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Pat80 and Jason,you both make good points. There is no absolute method to swimming or biking or running for that matter. TI is not an absolute method and"catch and pull" is not an absolute method.I was NOT the person that put the Sun Yang video on here. The Sun Yang video was a response to the Magnessen video.An(I think weak) argument can be made that Yang is NOT Total Immersion,at least in the details.But a better argument CAN be made that Yang Is Total Immersion COMPARED to Magnessen and the other people Yang raced against.Just listen to the announcers.THEY say"he keeps his head low in the water",THEY say he is"so easy,efficient in the water',THEY say,"dragging his feet,really relaxed kick"THEY say"it is misleading how fast he is going he looks so efficient"(again),andTHEY say"he is swimming like a recovery freestyle"! And as I say he does 29 strokes per length,less then the others.ALL OF THOSE STATEMENTS MATCH Total Immersion(IMO) and NONE of them match"catch and pull"(Again IMO).So some may say Yang is not"textbook"TI, everything the anouncers said and I observed would lead to me to conclude that what he does is Total Immersion in every way that COUNTS!
IF THE ABOVE is true(I think it is,ha ha)then Sun Yang swims TI AND he is Faster AND more efficient then anyone else(at least at that distance) then everybody who wants to be fast AND efficient should at least TRY Total Immersion(the point I made in the beginning).
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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i thought the three most important things in TI were to turn your shoulders to 90 degrees, push, and then glide? Yang has a fairly conventional shoulder roll, a strong emphasis on EVF (which enables a strong pull), and a bit of a glide. By your own definition of TI, Yang's stroke isn't it.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Until we see hotman's video in the water, he is nothing but another hungry troll, and/or a very well brainwashed cultist with an ANNOYING way of using the CAPS LOCK. Put your money where your mouth is hotman, SHOW us your FAST, cuz your WORDs aren't selling it to this crowd.

"It never gets easier, you just go faster."
-Greg LeMond

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Jason- I think maybe I see where the confusion is happening(but we will see,ha ha).I saw a video of what they were calling EVF.The video they showed was a TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE OF TOTAL IMMERSION,in my opinion.The EVF portion of the stroke is the pull portion of the stroke.The thing is that using EVF is NOT the main source of power in Total immersion.The main source of power in TI is turning(or rotating or rolling whatever word you like)then PUSHING your arm through the water,then SNAPPING your shoulder and hip to drive your body forward.The EVF pull and the kick only supply a small portion of the total power(I think less then 20%).Yang is not going faster because his EVF pull or his kick is any better then anyone elses,he is going faster because the timing of his full body turn,push and snap is PERFECT.I would bet that Magnessen has a WAY stronger pull and kick then Yang but his turn,push and snap/glide are not near as good,he is just too high in the water.Over a short race Magnessen might have a small advantage but in a long race Yang would have a HUGE advantage.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Oh my....

<<<shakes head and walks away>>>

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
The thing is that using EVF is NOT the main source of power in Total immersion.The main source of power in TI is turning(or rotating or rolling whatever word you like)then PUSHING your arm through the water,then SNAPPING your shoulder and hip to drive your body forward.

No. The source of power in TI is pulling the water back and kicking. You cannot move forward unless you do that, even if you rotate and twist like a freakin' propeller. Unless you are shaped like one, of course.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [pat80] [ In reply to ]
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This has easily turned into one of the most entertaining comedy threads of all time. I hope hotman continues to post hit after hit.....lightheir thanks for starting this thread!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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The thing is that using EVF is NOT the main source of power in Total immersion

I know that, but not for the reason you think. TI advocates "spearing" and getting your lead hand deep in the water before starting the pull. EVF starts with the hand near the surface and getting the forearm vertical while keeping the upper arm near the surface.

No-one, and by that I mean no-one other than yourself, advocates pushing your way through the water. Not even TI.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
The thing is that using EVF is NOT the main source of power in Total immersion

I know that, but not for the reason you think. TI advocates "spearing" and getting your lead hand deep in the water before starting the pull. EVF starts with the hand near the surface and getting the forearm vertical while keeping the upper arm near the surface.

No-one, and by that I mean no-one other than yourself, advocates pushing your way through the water. Not even TI.

if water is SO much thicker then air, wouldn't you want to keep your hand OUT of the water in the front quadrant as long as possible? shouldn't it be EASIER to move the arm through the air since it is less dense??? like karate chopping a brick vs a bar of butter...i'd karate chop the bar of butter all day.

on a side note...referencing cadence/turnover/etc...this is ALL related to your height/arm span. someone with shorter arms in relation to their body will tend to naturally have a higher turnover while someone with longer arms will tend to have a lower turnover...right?

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tskeltonpga] [ In reply to ]
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There's also a question of the strength needed to turn over those levers called arms. All things considered, a woman's commonly going to have a slightly shorter stroke/higher turnover than a man will because they don't have the same level of arm & shoulder strength to 'max out' the propulsion generation on each arm stroke.

Swimming is not rocket science; it's the interesting intersection between physics and biology. I can remember a discussion years ago with a coach about how butterfly is the fastest stroke from a physics standpoint (and why dolphin kick off the wall eventually became such an important part of pool swimming) but because of how the human body is built, you're just always going to fatigue quickly in fly compared to free, so you can never really use that maximum fly speed for more than about a 25.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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This has been a great learning experience!! I am having fun too! I think we are getting to the nub of the issue,its GREAT.I also watched a video of Phelps.He was using EVF too,it seems most of the top swimmers are using that,so that is NOT why Yang is faster then anyone else.In the video of Phelps his head is way higher then Yang,he does not turn his shoulders near as much and he does more strokes per length(slightly).And really most videos of the good swimmers on youtube show them"spearing",I was calling it pushing,but we can call it spearing.Many posters ask"isn't it way faster to swing your arm through the air then push underwater,because water is so much thicker then air?".Yes it IS way easier to swing through the air,BUT swinging through the air DOES NOT make you faster THROUGH THE WATER(in other words spearing underwater moves you forward and swinging through the air doesn't). So to sum up seems all the good swimmers spear and use EVF.So the difference from Yang to the others is Yang keeps his head lower,turns his shoulders more creating a longer spearing effect so he does less strokes but goes through the water faster(the basic premise of TI,IMO)Terry Laughlin says"Yang is textbook TI".Many on here say"isn't the fact that Yang is so tall is why he is fast,not technique?The longer the object the faster it goes through the water(law of physics).Tall people have a huge advantage in swimming,just like basketball.Smaller people tend to have an advantage in running,so everyone has a strength and weakness in triathlon,that is what makes it interesting.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Let me dispell the myth as to whether or not Sun Yang has any glide in his stroke. http://www.feelforthewater.com/...-two-best-1500m.html
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Hotman637 you also seem to confuse distance per stroke and stroke rate. counting strokes per length of a pool is totally different than how many strokes you take per minute. So many variables in counting ones stokes per length ( ie size of body, size of hand and feet, how strong is ones kick,etc...)
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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It seems you have a great eye for swimming......................Could you please look at Janet Evans in her hey day and dissect her stroke for me? Thanks.....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cubfan24] [ In reply to ]
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WOW cubfan24!! That link you supplied really made things clear for me! Everybody on here should check it out,it is GREAT! They state EXACTLY what I was trying,(but failing,ha ha) to say.A LOT of the problem was terminology.On the link they say they there are basically TWO styles to swimming(just what I said). One they call the swinger style(I was calling it catch and pull).Your head is high in the water,your arms are out of the water more,you do short strokes so you do a lot more,but put less energy into each one(that is their theory).Vast majority of triathletes use this technique.That is EXACTLY what I observered and was TRYING(ha ha) to say.To me it is like using drop bars and lowering your gears on your bike and spinning.And the OTHER swim technique is the infamous Total Immersion. Head is down,shoulder turn,spearing underwater,longer strokes so you do less etc.,etc.To me it is basically like putting aerobars on your bike and step up a gear or two and pedal slower.The big thing on this forum was most everone was saying TI was slow,swinger is fast.The problems we were having were communication and demonstration.Very few triathletes were doing TI correctly so it was not demonstrated well.Yang is NOT doing"swinger"technique,anyone I think would agree to that,but he may not do exact TI either.That is a also big issue we are having,you can MIX THE STYLES! Just like on a bike,you can get on the hoods and spin or down on the aerobars and"glide". I think what TI means by "glide" is you are spending MORE TIME being"aero" and less time"swinging",something that Yang obviously does.So back to my original point,in my opinion everybody should learn swing technique AND TI and THEN make up there mind what they want to do.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have any background in physics?
Fluid dynamics?
Biomechanics?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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next time you're at the pool, try a drill of just rolling your shoulders and spearing. Don't pull or kick at all, just turn and push/spear. Please report back to us your pace per 100 doing that drill. Even better, post a video.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenny,interesting video of Janet,she is doing an AMAZING version of what I am now calling the SWINGER technique(see above post).As I say people can be fast with the swinger technique AND TI,try them both and see which you prefer(or mix them for that matter).I was not that good at math or physics in high school,but as I say swimming is not rocket science.There are complicators and simplifiers.I am a simplifier,lol.Swimming comes down to swinger style or TI. Of course you can mix them but that makes it more complicated,ha ha.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Jason,WHY?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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you say that the propulsion comes from the push forward, not the pull. see how much propulsion you actually get from the spearing action.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637, you seem to have a unique ability to twist facts to make a point. The time sequence clearly shows the lack of any glide. the sheer length of his stroke gives the illusion of a glide but there is no glide. The only known stroke emphisis taught in the world that accentuates gliding is by Terry Laughlin and his followers. When Terry Laughlin coaches a world class swimmer to a medal at any level I'll rethink my position. TI enthusiests cling to Yang as their shining example to validate their technique. However, he is far from classic TI. He reaches high over the water with his recovery stroke vs the marrionette dangling arm recovery of TI, nowhere a 90 degree rotation,generally always uses a 6 beat kick etc...I will give you this though, If ever there were a person who could make TI look fast, it would be Yang. If he was taught some TI techniques with his freakish body (6'6" and maybe the longest wingspan in world class swimming) it might look fast.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
WOW cubfan24!! That link you supplied really made things clear for me! Everybody on here should check it out,it is GREAT! They state EXACTLY what I was trying,(but failing,ha ha) to say.A LOT of the problem was terminology.On the link they say they there are basically TWO styles to swimming(just what I said). One they call the swinger style(I was calling it catch and pull).Your head is high in the water,your arms are out of the water more,you do short strokes so you do a lot more,but put less energy into each one(that is their theory).Vast majority of triathletes use this technique.That is EXACTLY what I observered and was TRYING(ha ha) to say.To me it is like using drop bars and lowering your gears on your bike and spinning.And the OTHER swim technique is the infamous Total Immersion. Head is down,shoulder turn,spearing underwater,longer strokes so you do less etc.,etc.To me it is basically like putting aerobars on your bike and step up a gear or two and pedal slower.The big thing on this forum was most everone was saying TI was slow,swinger is fast.The problems we were having were communication and demonstration.Very few triathletes were doing TI correctly so it was not demonstrated well.Yang is NOT doing"swinger"technique,anyone I think would agree to that,but he may not do exact TI either.That is a also big issue we are having,you can MIX THE STYLES! Just like on a bike,you can get on the hoods and spin or down on the aerobars and"glide". I think what TI means by "glide" is you are spending MORE TIME being"aero" and less time"swinging",something that Yang obviously does.So back to my original point,in my opinion everybody should learn swing technique AND TI and THEN make up there mind what they want to do.


"...you can MIX THE STYLES!"
You have been repeatedly telling us that you can't mix the styles because your "catch and pull" "and "turn, push, and glide" directly contradict each other. But now that you admit that Yang is not textbook TI (he is not TI in genearal or specifically for any matter), you now tellus he is mixing the styles because "you can MIX THE STYLES!" I do not understand tgis direct contradiction in your statements. Please clarify. Lol...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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First you said this :...from both methods and that is fine.The difficulty I have with this approach is that the MAJOR techniques of the two styles DIRECTLY CONTRADICT EACH OTHER...then you said this :That is a also big issue we are having,you can MIX THE STYLES
So what is it?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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To:...Janet,she is doing an AMAZING version of what I am now calling the SWINGER technique
/......Please tell us your Paulo busting our balls........Dude you are either entertaining or truly clueless
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
To:...Janet,she is doing an AMAZING version of what I am now calling the SWINGER technique
/......Please tell us your Paulo busting our balls........Dude you are either entertaining or truly clueless


I had considered two potential aspects of Ruse of the Year here. One which you identified in paulo. The other being a person who realizes the douchery of their posts and is probably not a fan of TI, just attempting to confirm the blind cult mentality that tends to follow Terry's 'stuff'.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 25, 12 11:15
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman....what if I told you right now that Yang's coaches are working on his fitness so that he is able to maintain a HIGHER stroke rate?

Although Yang is NOT TI, but you seem to believe he is...trust me, in the coming years, he will not even remotely resemble it....because he wants to go even faster.


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Good question!Others have have asked the same thing.They DO directly contradict each other AND you can mix them.Yang is an example of a guy who does over 90%TI(IMO,many on on here disagree).Janet Evans is an example of someone who does 100%"swinger"technique.(I did NOT come up with the"swinger" name,Cubfan24 put a link on here that gave me that label in his post above.Check out that link for an explanation.I have know idea who Paulo is).As I say you COULD mix the styles.Janet could lower her head,turn her shoulders more and lengthen her stroke.At the same time she COULD"swing"her arms really fast,kick really fast and pull really hard.BUT doing that does not make much sense as you say,because they work against each other.Phelps looks to me he is mixing the styles to some extent.He does a long spear but does not turn his shoulders much. I think it is best to try both styles and decide which you like better and then stick 90%or more with the style.IMO,that is what 90% of the triathletes do,they swim 90%"swinger"style.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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The problem with videos is how you interpret them.I say Yang gets his power from the spearing,many others says he gets it from the pull.The ONLY way to really demonstrate how to correcty,"turn,spear and glide" is get in the water and feel it for yourself.You said you tried it(great!),now speed it up!I can swim spearing without kicking but I have to have to pull the same reason a boxer has to pull his arm back to set up the other punch.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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It has certainly crossed my mind that he's a Poe. I dunno, I think he's just backed himslef into a corner and is still trying to prove that he's right.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
The problem with videos is how you interpret them.I say Yang gets his power from the spearing,many others says he gets it from the pull.The ONLY way to really demonstrate how to correcty,"turn,spear and glide" is get in the water and feel it for yourself.You said you tried it(great!),now speed it up!I can swim spearing without kicking but I have to have to pull the same reason a boxer has to pull his arm back to set up the other punch.


i believe a punch without drawing ones arm back is what we would call a jab. do you watch boxing at all? jabs make up 90% of the punches.

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Last edited by: tskeltonpga: May 25, 12 13:38
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
It has certainly crossed my mind that he's a Poe. I dunno, I think he's just backed himslef into a corner and is still trying to prove that he's right.

I think I found him:


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I can swim spearing without kicking but I have to have to pull the same reason a boxer has to pull his arm back to set up the other punch.

Yeah, so post a youtube of yourself punching your way through the water without a normal pull. instead of pointing your hand to the bottom of the pool on the pull, keep your forearm pointed straight ahead to minimize the pull as much as possible, and just roll and push your way to speed.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 25, 12 14:17
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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oh dear. That's disturbing.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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Jason-Tigerpaws-I don't have to post a video!! That picture is EXACTLY like what I am describing!! That is EXACTLY how to do the stroke.TURN your shoulders like that guy is doing,PUSH(or SPEAR)your arm straight into the water,glide for a SPLIT SECOND,like his left arm is doing,then I pull straight down(or you can do EVF if you want)then TURN(or rotate or roll)your shoulders the other way, repeat as neccessary.Not rocket science.The hard part is to go fast.The basic trick is to do all those things in PERFECT TIMING so the whole thing is one superfast motion.TURNSPEARGLIDE,TURNSPEARGLIDE.You can kick anyway you want,pull anyway you want,breath anyway you want.Get in the water and practice,TURNSPEARGLIDE.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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so how fast are you doing turnspearglide? if you don't want to post video, at least post your times.

It's amazing how you think the least important things in the stroke are the most important. truly amazing.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Don't know my times,don't have a video camera.Undoubtedly you are WAY faster then me! The title of this thread is"TI in a fascinating debate",NOT video comparison of swimmers.If you are obsessed with times and videos,put them on here.To me videos do not show TI very well(that is one reason there is so much debate about TI,IMO. If you want to understand Total Immersion,you have to DO it,not watch it,just like sex,lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I have posted times. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#3904680. I'm not that fast either, but thats mostly due to lack of fitness and talent.

I'm supposed to be listening to you aboutturnspearglide, but you have no idea if it is faster or slower than a freestyle which emphhasises the pull. Youve said yourself that video is hard to interpret, but youve gone ahead and done just that while ignoring all feedback from anyone who knows anything about swimming.

But please, carry on. You amuse me.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Don't know my times,don't have a video camera.Undoubtedly you are WAY faster then me! The title of this thread is"TI in a fascinating debate",NOT video comparison of swimmers.If you are obsessed with times and videos,put them on here.To me videos do not show TI very well(that is one reason there is so much debate about TI,IMO. If you want to understand Total Immersion,you have to DO it,not watch it,just like sex,lol.

I'm afraid you don't inherit Brett Sutton's knowledge and authority simply by adopting his approach to punctuation.

Troll or hard of thinking, surely.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Don't know my times,don't have a video camera.Undoubtedly you are WAY faster then me! The title of this thread is"TI in a fascinating debate",NOT video comparison of swimmers.If you are obsessed with times and videos,put them on here.To me videos do not show TI very well(that is one reason there is so much debate about TI,IMO. If you want to understand Total Immersion,you have to DO it,not watch it,just like sex,lol.

"I ran a marathon in 5 hours ten minutes,very slow"

Of course you won't post any real swim times, because they are so bad, the life guards probably throw the life saver ring at you sometimes. Next you will start telling us to walk/shuffle a marathon like you did as it's MUCH EASIER everyone SHOULD TRY IT! Your TI is the swimming equivalent of your 5hr+ marathon. No thanks. I'm not looking for the easiest way to do something very slowly.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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Regardless of what you think about the TI freestyle technique, I'm pretty sure the balance drills wouldn't do any swimmer any harm and could do a lot of good.
I've found Terry's advice to train with a bunched fist (trying to avoid the term'fisting' for obvious reasons) helpful too.
Terry is fairly vehement about one thing, SR x SL = Velocity. That really is the bottom line, IMVHO. Total Immersion is all about increasin stroke length. The problem is that many, many TI swimmers -myself included - increase SL at the expense of SR, hence the ridicule by faster and fitter swimmers.

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]
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Regardless of what you think about the TI freestyle technique, I'm pretty sure the balance drills wouldn't do any swimmer any harm and could do a lot of good.

I admit, I only know a little about TI, what I've been able to find on youtube and google. I don't think I would spend my money on a TI camp, but I think that for certain swimmers (particularly at the entry level who have zero feel for the water) then TI isn't bad. Once you get above that, i.e. someone who has a club, HS or college swimming background, I'm not so sure about the benefits of doing the TI drills. Some of them (and I don't know what they are called, they have names that I am not familiar with and seem to be unique to the TI method) seem to encourage overrotation, and I think that drills designed more around what an individual swimmer does are more important. Incidentally, I think that for an advanced level swimmer, freestyle drills aren't all that important. They still have their place, but they aren't nearly as important as drills for other strokes, especially breaststroke and fly.

Terry is fairly vehement about one thing, SR x SL = Velocity.

That is a true statement, but he also APPEARS to me to be all about swimming effortlessly as well. If you want to swim fast, then the effort has to be there. if you want to maintain a certain stroke length and increase the stroke rate, then you have to put more muscle into it.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Many thanks for your reply Jason.
It´s always nice to be able to discuss TI, my experiences and misgivings about the ´method´, without getting into an argument.
I never did a TI camp, just bought the book for a few euros on Amazon, really enjoyed working through it and try to apply it to racing and training.
I would say this, at the last sprint triathlon I spectated at (Mrs Barchetta was competing) I would say 95% of the people doing freestyle would have benefitted from TI*, as it resembled that Monty Python sketch about ´100 metres for non swimmers´

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmyz_f8Sx14

Starts 50 seconds in.....

*or any other form of decent swim coaching

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Jason,As I say BOTH techniques can be fast and both can be slow.Cubfan24 posted a GREAT link(feelforthewater.com) above that explains EXACTLY what I was trying to explain.What I was calling"catch and pull" they called the"swinger"technique.Check it out.Anyhow what I mean by the video is hard to interpret is I watch the Sun Yang video and I see turnspearglide(or TI).Terry Lauphlin says Yang is"textbook" Total Immersion.Yet just about everyone on here says Yang isn't doing TI!! So the FOUNDER of TI is WRONG about a video and a bunch of people,many who have never even done TI are RIGHT?!THAT is what I mean by video is hard to interpret! Now MAYBE Terry is wrong about Yang doing TI(or maybe many on here are wrong,lol),BUT we will not solve that issue by watching more video!! The ONLY way to really solve it is for people to get in the water and PRACTICE Total Immersion until they understand it(they don't have to be real good,lol). And do the"swinger"technique,if they want a comparison. THEN they can decide which they want to do(of course you can do a mix)and they can make a better judgement as whether Yang or anybody else for that matter is doing TI.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Terry is saying that because he believes in his method, a "true believer" so to speak, and wants to sell books and DVDs. The most common criticism of TI is that it doesn't teach speed, and I have yet to find a video of anyone swimming fast in a TI video (and I've been looking), so he's latched onto a fast swimmer who has a really long DPS and relatively low turnover and says "look, TI!!" when in fact it isn't.

TI is what it is. A fairly good method for getting people with no swimming background into the water and they can stop thrashing. It isn't about speed.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Your post EXACTLY proves what I just said.Terry sees Yang and says,"Total Immersion".You and others sees Yang and says"Its fast but it's something other then Total Immersion". What I am saying is videos and theorising CANNOT solve that conundrum.The ONLY solution to that situation is get in the water and swim TI UNTIL you"get"it. THEN get back on here and tell us your conclusions.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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TurnSpearGlide is the swimming technique of ManBearPig.

J
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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Wow,you are the first to mention the"shuffle"method I talked a bit about.When I ran the 5 hour marathon a few years ago it was before the"shuffle" method so I was not really happy with the"usual"method so I was always looking at different ideas to see what might work.The"shuffle"method is NOT easier then the usual method and does not make as big a difference,good or bad,as Total Immersion in swimming.The weight distribution is different and it takes a while to get used to different muscle usage.I like it but many may not,look at video of Cliff Young and see how he does it.Unlike Total Immersion it is easy to see the difference on video,lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously you are the only one who "gets" it, so I would like for you to post your times so I can see if it is work making the time investment to change my stroke to something that I have never seen work. I've already posted mine. Come on, you can do it.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have any"times",don't have any video.I think you HAVE seen it work(Yang's race)but you don't.If a video won't convince you,some strangers"times"will not convince you either.If the times are fast you will say"he is not doing TI"if they are slow you will say"TI is slow".IF I timed myself I would be"slow"in the swim,bike AND run,that is why I don't time myself,lol.If you don't get in the pool and practice turnspearglide,you will not"get"it,no matter what ANYBODIES,times,videos,books,posts,theories,ideas,concepts,etc.etc.etc,say!Turnspearglide is NOT a theory it is an action.It is sort of like saying I will not spend the money for a lotto ticket unless so-and-so wins the lotto to prove it is possible to win the lotto. It is only impossible to win the lotto if you don't buy a ticket,lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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If you don't time yourself, how would you know that turnspearglide is better than a normal stroke?

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Now THAT is a good question!The short answer is speed is NOT the only criteria for"better".Turnspearglide is easier(almost everyone says that even you),more relaxing,more fun,lower heart rate,uses less strokes,more efficient(in my opinion,many disagree).In my opinion about the ONLY way the"swinger" technique might be"better"is it is faster.Given that if I can do turnspearglide to anywhere NEAR as fast as the"swinger"style(and I WAS slow at that style too,lol) I would be an ABSOLUTE FOOL not to do turnspearglide!It is just so easy and relaxing that when you get to the bike you have more energy to catch up any time lost to the"swingers",lol.It is really very similiar to aerobars verses drops.Lance Armstrong could use drop bars and probably go JUST as FAST as most pros on aerobars.But he would be using far more energy,spinning at a higher RPM,not nearly as relaxed and have a higher heart rate.So even if he won the bike he would be tired and tense for the run.Of course that is why Lance and virtually everyone else uses aerobars.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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turnspearglide? awesome! You all are being taken for a ride.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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I thought this thread had already jumped the shark a while back, but he's just added Lance to the argument. There must be some sort of Godwin's Law equivalent for doing that. Let's turn this thread into a debate about how big a winning margin Lance will have in Kona in he swims with TI and trains on power cranks.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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Someone should tell Lance that he's spinning a higher rpm on the road bike than the TT bike because he has aerobars on the TT bike. For reals. Hotman said so.

edit. I know I should l this thread die, but I can't. I feel compelled to post to see what "wisdom" hotman has to say.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 27, 12 5:49
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Oh HELLS no this thread cannot die, it's nearing hall of fame material. I missed out on yesterday's additions this is awesomeness.

Hotman. Can you start one about leg shaving?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Now THAT is a good question!The short answer is speed is NOT the only criteria for"better".Turnspearglide is easier(almost everyone says that even you),more relaxing,more fun,lower heart rate,uses less strokes,more efficient(in my opinion,many disagree).In my opinion about the ONLY way the"swinger" technique might be"better"is it is faster.Given that if I can do turnspearglide to anywhere NEAR as fast as the"swinger"style(and I WAS slow at that style too,lol) I would be an ABSOLUTE FOOL not to do turnspearglide!It is just so easy and relaxing that when you get to the bike you have more energy to catch up any time lost to the"swingers",lol.It is really very similiar to aerobars verses drops.Lance Armstrong could use drop bars and probably go JUST as FAST as most pros on aerobars.But he would be using far more energy,spinning at a higher RPM,not nearly as relaxed and have a higher heart rate.So even if he won the bike he would be tired and tense for the run.Of course that is why Lance and virtually everyone else uses aerobars.

Wow...just amazing...your powers of reasoning are incredible and your intellect dizzying...So TI is aerobars again? Aerobars are about going faster, not "easier(almost everyone says that even you),more relaxing,more fun,lower heart rate,uses less strokes,more efficient(in my opinion,many disagree)". Yes faster. They are not for saving energy, or making things easy. You ride at a certain output and at that output aerobars on a TT bike are faster over certain terrain. Again, your comparison to aerobars is ridiculous and one of the reasons I have stated that you lack any logical reasoning capabilities whatsoever. But you chose to believe that we perceive your lack of reasoning to be because of your cult like love for TI. Logic is not about your chosen side, but about how you argue it and the reasoning you use. Yours is full of fallacies and bat shit crazy. The criteria for better is faster... So only an ABSOLUTE FOOL will choose speed (whether a little or a lot) over "easier, more relaxing, more fun, etc"?? I guess I am an ABSOLUTE FOOL...well at least to you. Which doesn't mean anything inside your realm of padded walls... By the way, you don't happen to be related to Speedracer1 do you??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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No idea who Speedracer1 is.I went for a bike ride using aerobars over a route that I had mostly used drop bars prevously.By my watch I might have been a little faster(don't look at times much as I say).What I REALLY NOTICED was it was way easier,more relaxed,more fun,lower heart rate,lower RPM,used a higher gear,JUST LIKE turnspearglide!Try them both and see if it works for you.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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This thread will never ever shine a candle on the Hottie Thread, nor the Starbucks thread, nor How to Wipe your ass.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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Though I do think we're into How Do I Make Flat Coke? territory.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
No idea who Speedracer1 is.I went for a bike ride using aerobars over a route that I had mostly used drop bars prevously.By my watch I might have been a little faster(don't look at times much as I say).What I REALLY NOTICED was it was way easier,more relaxed,more fun,lower heart rate,lower RPM,used a higher gear,JUST LIKE turnspearglide!Try them both and see if it works for you.

Sounds like a very scientific test with very valid conclusions. Allow me to add a peer reviewed stamp of approval... Your dedication will change the sport as we know it...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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R10C wrote:
This thread will never ever shine a candle on the Hottie Thread, nor the Starbucks thread, nor How to Wipe your ass.

Well....one can always strive for immortal thread status.

Hotman if you can keep the hits coming and reach Epic Fail Consensus Status we will take up a collection and buy you a lifetime subscription to Dildo Castle.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe he can post that we need to Hurry The Fail Up.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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i just wana know who the swingers are. They sound like cool folks.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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YES,the term"swingers"is a great name very sexy,way better then Total Immersion or"turnspearglide".Any ideas as to what we can call TI?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
No idea who Speedracer1 is.I went for a bike ride using aerobars over a route that I had mostly used drop bars prevously.By my watch I might have been a little faster(don't look at times much as I say).What I REALLY NOTICED was it was way easier,more relaxed,more fun,lower heart rate,lower RPM,used a higher gear,JUST LIKE turnspearglide!Try them both and see if it works for you.

You must not have been riding at a very high velocity.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [fertilizer] [ In reply to ]
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fertilizer wrote:
TurnSpearGlide is the swimming technique of ManBearPig.

J

TI must be the best then, since ManBearPig would never lie. After all he is "half man, half bear, and half pig", which makes perfect sense to me...:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
Though I do think we're into How Do I Make Flat Coke? territory.

THAT one must have been real rocket science territory!!! Can't believe anyone would even ask such a question..:) BTW, you never did answer my question about where you got that list of "noteworthy" women's 100m relay splits...???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I didn't see your other post. I pulled the splits from the last couple of World Championships, Pan Pacs, and Euros and such at omegatiming.com. Omega's been posting online results since about 2000, and while they don't have a ton of meets up, they're the timekeeper of record for almost all of the important meets where you'd put together a fast relay, save for Chinese nationals and such.

http://www.omegatiming.com/...ives/2012/index.html
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I have an idea,we can call"turnspearglide"the"Thrusters",haha! So it is the"Thrusters"vs.the"Swingers".So do you want to"Thrust"or"Swing"?? LOL.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
Sorry, I didn't see your other post. I pulled the splits from the last couple of World Championships, Pan Pacs, and Euros and such at omegatiming.com. Omega's been posting online results since about 2000, and while they don't have a ton of meets up, they're the timekeeper of record for almost all of the important meets where you'd put together a fast relay, save for Chinese nationals and such.

http://www.omegatiming.com/...ives/2012/index.html

Wow, haven't heard of this site for meet results per se, thanks for the info!!! Swimming...really the best sport!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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That is a true statement, but he also APPEARS to me to be all about swimming effortlessly as well. If you want to swim fast, then the effort has to be there. if you want to maintain a certain stroke length and increase the stroke rate, then you have to put more muscle into it.

He's not, but that's how it comes off. He's very much into swimming efficiently and not wasting energy. He says you shouldn't go to the pool to swim hard. You should try to swim fast and the result will probably be that the workout will be hard, but swimming hard shouldn't be the intention. It's a result of the effort required to maintain your goal SPL and SR. He's really into the Finis Tempo Trainer and working on gradually increasing your stroke rate while maintaining your strokes per length.

I'm working with a swim coach right now who's trying to get me to cut out a few strokes per length and swim more efficiently. He had me do a test that illustrated this point. My goal was to swim 50 yards aiming for 14 strokes per length. I couldn't do it, but I did manage 15. I swam that 50 in 35 seconds and the effort level was moderate. Then he had me swim an all out 50. Everything I have. I swam that one in 32 seconds. My form fell apart and all I was doing was swimming hard. The first 50 was at a much lower effort level, but if I did several of them just like that I would start getting tired and the workout would be hard but it would be a result of swimming fast (for me) and not because I simply went to the pool to swim hard.

I think TI could produce fast swimmers, but everyone into TI focuses on effortless swimming and therefore they swim slow. I started with TI when I got into triathlons because I couldn't swim two lengths of the pool without resting. It taught me the basics. Then I moved on and started gaining speed. I don't know what would have happened had I stuck with it. Like I said, I think it has the potential to produce fast swimmers but I never read about people talking about how fast they got using TI and until I do I'll continue to tell people TI is a great place to start and learn the basics and then you should move on and adopt a more traditional approach. But I do think TI is misunderstood by a lot of people. It's not really about effortless swimming. It's about not wasting energy. Big difference.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
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He says you shouldn't go to the pool to swim hard. You should try to swim fast

That describes EVERY coaches philosophy, which is why from a really young age everyone is drilled into looking at the pace clock after every single repeat. The focus is on making the repeat, but in more conventional approaches SPL is a means to get there. It seems to me that TI excessively emphasises SPL as a goal rather than a means. Maybe I'm mistaken in that, but none of the instructional videos that I've seen really show anyone swimming fast.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
i just wana know who the swingers are. They sound like cool folks.

I would ask Mjuric...I think that he may have been in the thick of things (or was she just big boned?)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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If people are not going fast doing TI they are not"thrusting"HARD ENOUGH.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Dont you sophomoric jags get ME in trouble for your turning this thread into some Calligula Love Fest orgy thing....

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
If people are not going fast doing TI they are not"thrusting"HARD ENOUGH.

Seriously, folks? This is just too easy...

total immersion, not thrusting hard enough?

Hard = more effort = more energy = less efficient, no?

Or is there a "tipping point", so to speak?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cafe Lactate] [ In reply to ]
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Well, you can tell most often (presuming that you are not at VO2 max or AT) when you are reaching the "tipping point" of effectiveness. You will notice some more rhythmic breathing and there will just sort of seem to be a more natural flow when all of the aspects of your stroke come together.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cafe Lactate] [ In reply to ]
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To do TI FAST,the idea is to TURN your shoulders close to 90 degrees,THRUST your arm straight forward FORCEFULLY then"GLIDE",all in one smooth motion.The HARD THRUST does use effort just like the"SWING",but OVERALL Total Immersion is more effecient for a few reasons.#1The"THRUST"uses every muscle in the body,the"swing"uses mostly the arms.#2Because you are TURNING your shoulders your resistance though the water is WAY less so every time you"THRUST" you go further then when you"swing".Going further per"thrust"is what I call the"GLIDE".#3 The result of the"turnthrustglide" is you do less strokes in a given distance.I have observed when people are going slow with TI they TURN their shoulders ok but they do not"THRUST" hard enough so they have no"glide". SO back to my statement"If you are going slow with TI,turn more,THRUST HARDER,then glide easy."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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What the heck are you talking about?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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This always comes up every now and then.. lol.. I've been out of the sport for a couple of years , and when I raced, I specialized in sprints, and usualy got out at the front, with the lead pack.
I know Terry Laughlin , have worked out next to him., and he is not fast. He doesn't race tri's, and doesn't walk the walk. At best TI is a good primer for in- experienced swimmers. Once you get the basic mechanics down , one needs to swim hard intervals to compete in races. Every TI student I have seen come down the pike is slow and frustrated. The ones that went to Terry or TI who are swimming fast have abondoned it's training philosophy, and are probably just singing the praises just to be pc or something?? Who knows.. I just know that betond the basic mechanics , TI is a waste of time..
You want to swim fast .. Swim hard , swim with good techinique , have a good aerobic base , and swim often!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [guiroplaya] [ In reply to ]
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guiroplaya wrote:
I know Terry Laughlin , have worked out next to him., and he is not fast. He doesn't race tri's, and doesn't walk the walk.


Huh....sounds like a coach....

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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Nope , a former masters coach.. I have no involvement in the sport whatsoever.. I have babies now, and cheer on my buds. My point is "there's nothing in it for me"..
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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And what if I were a coach ? So what. One could get more out of their local H.S swim coach then they could TI. I would bet that the H.S swim coach would come the same conclusion that I and every other swim coach would come too??? That beyond some of the basic mechanics , that Terry Laughlin btw , did not invent.. Swimming fast is reliant on a good base followed by a period of hard intervals being supported with good technique .. And , that swimming with more frequency produces optimum results i.e 2x per day some days ..

This is what has worked for me and my former students.
Last edited by: guiroplaya: May 28, 12 10:50
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [guiroplaya] [ In reply to ]
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No - HE sounds like a coach. You think most NFL coaches can practice what they preach?

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Cafe Lactate] [ In reply to ]
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Cafe Lactate wrote:
hotman637 wrote:
If people are not going fast doing TI they are not"thrusting"HARD ENOUGH.


Seriously, folks? This is just too easy...

total immersion, not thrusting hard enough?

Hard = more effort = more energy = less efficient, no?

Or is there a "tipping point", so to speak?

Mrs. Duffy is always telling me to thrust harder when I'm doing Total Immersion with her, and it definitely gets her to the tipping point.

But as far as swimming goes, I really have nothing to say.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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nope , but you sound like Terry's boyfriend.. lol
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:

Mrs. Duffy is always telling me to thrust harder when I'm doing Total Immersion with her, and it definitely gets her to the tipping point.

But as far as swimming goes, I really have nothing to say.

Finally a post worthy or a real response!

When you turn to spear Mrs. Duffy, what is your stroke rate?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
Duffy wrote:


Mrs. Duffy is always telling me to thrust harder when I'm doing Total Immersion with her, and it definitely gets her to the tipping point.

But as far as swimming goes, I really have nothing to say.


Finally a post worthy or a real response!

When you turn to spear Mrs. Duffy, what is your stroke rate?

I haven't counted, but going by Mrs. Duffy's constant commands to go faster, my stroke rate is never quite high enough. That is, of course, until we hit that sometimes elusive tipping point.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
Duffy wrote:


Mrs. Duffy is always telling me to thrust harder when I'm doing Total Immersion with her, and it definitely gets her to the tipping point.

But as far as swimming goes, I really have nothing to say.


Finally a post worthy or a real response!

When you turn to spear Mrs. Duffy, what is your stroke rate?


I haven't counted, but going by Mrs. Duffy's constant commands to go faster, my stroke rate is never quite high enough. That is, of course, until we hit that sometimes elusive tipping point.


See right there is your problem. You can't be afraid to try TI. I know it's not rocket sturgeon stuff, but until you try it you won't know if it works for you. Just turn your shoulders 90 degrees and spear hard. Glide into position, but don't use external stimuli to judge your stroke rate. Time is not important, as I say. Just (LOL!) try it you won't know til you mix the styles of swinger and turnspearglide! (none of this ridiculous vocabulary will make sense unless you have been following hotmans posts).
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 28, 12 12:19
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I gotta go find Mrs. Duffy before I soil my keyboard...

I'll get back to you in about 3.37 minutes.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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...Total failure (according to Mrs. Duffy). Now I have to make my own lunch.

I'm going back to doing it by feel...

We'll try again later. I need some recovery time.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
...Total failure (according to Mrs. Duffy). Now I have to make my own lunch.

I'm going back to doing it by feel...

We'll try again later. I need some recovery time.


Did you wear a 'wetsuit'? It only works if you can 'feel' the glide. Push hard and snap the hips!
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 28, 12 12:22
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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We never use any type of rubber. Latex, maybe.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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YES!! Sex,swimming,sword fighting,boxing and probably a lot of other things can be done using one of the two different styles(of course you can mix them),"THRUSTING and SWINGING",lol."Thrusting" usually has a slower rythym and longer follow through but has more power in each stroke."Swinging" usually has a faster rythym,shorter follow through but less power in each stroke.Feel free to use either method(or a mix)in ANY activity,lol.The argument many made here is that"thrusting"in swimming is slow.ALL I am(and was) saying is,get in the water and PRACTICE,PRACTICE"thrusting" till you"get"it,THEN decide if it is(or can be)fast".
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Frequency and volume are the key. Sometimes two-a-days are beneficial. That's when the the neighbor girls come in handy.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Is it better to practice with a group or solo?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
It seems to me that TI excessively emphasises SPL as a goal rather than a means.

The way I understand it, that's exactly how it is. You wouldn't swim 10x50 as hard as you can with TI. Instead you would do something like 10x50 at a stroke rate of 60 and strokes per length of 15. Speed is a result of that combination of SPL and SR and it might be a difficult set for you so you're tired at the end. But the goal isn't to swim hard for the sake of swimming hard.

At least that's how I understand TI.

I also think they over-emphasize SPL.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Is it better to practice with a group or solo?

You'll make faster improvement with a group. However I find if there's more than 3 or 4 people there can be too much waiting for your send off.

That being said, I cannot stress enough the importance of a good quality solo session. I like to mix those up. Sometimes short duration but I go at it very hard. Other times it's long and slow. These solo session can be very rewarding. New breakthroughs often happen during solo work.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Is it better to practice with a group or solo?


You'll make faster improvement with a group. However I find if there's more than 3 or 4 people there can be too much waiting for your send off.

That being said, I cannot stress enough the importance of a good quality solo session. I like to mix those up. Sometimes short duration but I go at it very hard. Other times it's long and slow. These solo session can be very rewarding. New breakthroughs often happen during solo work.

Mission accomplished.

Just sayin'.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Is it better to practice with a group or solo?


You'll make faster improvement with a group. However I find if there's more than 3 or 4 people there can be too much waiting for your send off.

That being said, I cannot stress enough the importance of a good quality solo session. I like to mix those up. Sometimes short duration but I go at it very hard. Other times it's long and slow. These solo session can be very rewarding. New breakthroughs often happen during solo work.

Yea solo work has it's place no question. I'm still working up the courage to do the 'group thing'. I mean I have serious performance anxiety. How are you able to get past performing in groups?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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I think everyone should practice"thrusting"for 15 minutes to a half an hour everyday for a week or two.Then they can decide if they want to go back to"swinging",lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [guiroplaya] [ In reply to ]
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guiroplaya wrote:
nope , but you sound like Terry's boyfriend.. lol


With as shitty as I think that the whole TI program is - I would presume I sound like an ex-boyfriend.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, so I decided to try your turnspearglide/turnthrustglide...at first it felt really weird, I did not have the optimum thrusting power. Perfect timing is what I need, right? I figured I would put in a ton of work at it and achieve PERFECT TIMING so I could see if it would work and get to the bottom of this. Well I practiced practiced practiced, for like 15 minutes, and it clicked and I was able to perfect the timing. I was not as fast as swinging, but it was a whole lot easier. I think I only burned 3 calories in the 15 minutes... I was not as fast...so the question is, how near my "swinger" pace do I need before I would achieve fool status to not keep thrusting for all I am worth??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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Um - are you married or in a relationship?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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How are you able to get past performing in groups?

The hardest thing for me is doing "solo work" while a group is present in the, um, practice area.

Group performance is easier than you think, though. There is so much going on with bodies everywhere (some thrusting, some swinging, some gliding 90, etc.) you'll find the group really isn't focusing on you, specifically (until you're about to reach that all important tipping point). There can be some awkward moments if the timing is off, but if you find the right group everything will just flow. The more you practice with the same group the easier it gets.

Speaking of the "tipping point", some of the best sessions are when you hold yourself right below that "tipping point". Some call it threshold or "edging". This can be difficult in a group setting (for me) because I find myself getting swept up in the, um, competition and often "blow my wad" before the, um, workout is "done". So these threshold, or "edging" sessions are to practiced solo before you try it with a group.

By far the best sessions are done with just one other partner.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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WOW,THANKS for giving it a try!That is all I ask,lol.Not totally clear on your queston,but I think you are asking,"how long till I get fast enough at"thrusting"to make the hassle worthwhile?",lol.That is the million dollar question! I think it depends on how much you like"thrusting"verses"swinging".If you don't like"thrusting"forget about it and get back to"swinging".If like"thrusting" and practice it a lot you will get as fast or faster as swinging.Let us know what happens.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
WOW,THANKS for giving it a try!That is all I ask,lol.Not totally clear on your queston,but I think you are asking,"how long till I get fast enough at"thrusting"to make the hassle worthwhile?",lol.That is the million dollar question! I think it depends on how much you like"thrusting"verses"swinging".If you don't like"thrusting"forget about it and get back to"swinging".If like"thrusting" and practice it a lot you will get as fast or faster as swinging.Let us know what happens.

"Now THAT is a good question!The short answer is speed is NOT the only criteria for"better".Turnspearglide is easier(almost everyone says that even you),more relaxing,more fun,lower heart rate,uses less strokes,more efficient(in my opinion,many disagree).In my opinion about the ONLY way the"swinger" technique might be"better"is it is faster.Given that if I can do turnspearglide to anywhere NEAR as fast as the"swinger"style(and I WAS slow at that style too,lol) I would be an ABSOLUTE FOOL not to do turnspearglide!It is just so easy and relaxing that when you get to the bike you have more energy to catch up any time lost to the"swingers",lol.It is really very similiar to aerobars verses drops.Lance Armstrong could use drop bars and probably go JUST as FAST as most pros on aerobars.But he would be using far more energy,spinning at a higher RPM,not nearly as relaxed and have a higher heart rate.So even if he won the bike he would be tired and tense for the run.Of course that is why Lance and virtually everyone else uses aerobars."

I am looking for the time difference between the two styles that would put one in the "ABSOLUTE FOOL" status to not use "turnspearglide". How close do the times have to be? I swam turnspearglide and almost made it to the other end of the pool (I'm trying not to kick or pull to maximize efficiency to get the most of this awesome technique...the easier the better, right? I mean why not go all out?). With "catch and pull" I can regularly swim back and forth at a reasonable pace though. Is my timing maybe not perfect yet? I thought lets take it up a notch...breaststroke is even easier...but what could be easier than breaststroke?? Is there a TI breaststroke? That would leave me even more energy to catch the "swingers"...those poor SOB's...

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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R10C wrote:
Um - are you married or in a relationship?

Sir, that is too bold!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are swinger!Good luck!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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You can "believe" whatever you want. Literature will contradict you. A trained cyclist will have a higher vo2 reading on a cycling tests and a lower reading on a running test; a runner will have a lower reading on a cycling test and a higher one on a treadmill test. What will those differences be? I don't know.

maybe BrianCD will post numbers for you (but those would be HIS, and he is trained in cycling and running methinks)
_________________________________________


True in most instances; with the one exception that I know of being snowshoeing which actually increases VO2 max for RUNNING more than running itself...with this said, snowshoeing is much closer to running than cycling; so I believe that the point still stands.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [fionalaughlin] [ In reply to ]
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Hey fionalaughlin,thanks for posting! I revived this thread and tried to defend TI. If you are having trouble making cash maybe you need to RE-BRAND! Call it"Aero Swimming"or"Thrusting"(read my posts,lol).In other words make it sexier. Also make it simpler. That is the big problem with TI,it is so complicated no one understands it. Anyhow,good luck!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [fionalaughlin] [ In reply to ]
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EVERYTHING in business is related to branding! It sounds like(hard to tell from here,lol)you have lost control of your brand. They should ONLY be able to use the Total Immersion Brand if they PAY you. That is the idea of branding. And you CAN trademark a technique(Bikram Yoga did). So if you don't want to protect your brand get ready to go broke or maybe look into re-branding.Good luck!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [fionalaughlin] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe you should start your own brand! Sam Walton had a Ben Franklin's then he started Wal-Mart,look how that worked out! Call it"Aero-Swim"or whatever and then PROTECT YOUR BRAND! You can make money AND do what you want! Good Luck!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Is it better to practice with a group or solo?

Another question: Do you have a coach? And if yes, does he just stand and give advice or does he get in there with you and get wet?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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big slow mover wrote:
In swimming you also need way more intensity training, then in cycling and running. If you apply the rules of running on swimmers you gonna create a bunch of total immersed slow guys. You need to crank up the intensity to levels way beyond what you do for run training.

Also i must always laugh about these technique stuff and 24 mins 1500. I never did any technique, and without a background in swimming i went to 24 mins in 5 months. I almost always did one set. 5*200 m fast as possible with a few sprints afterwards. No TI or book needed. From then on i joined some triathlon swim training. And i went backwards straight away with all those drills.
This strikes me as crazy wrong. It took me 20yrs to realize that I didn't know how to swim. I'm slowly, finally, improving my technique, but it's incredibly slow going.

Running and cycling doesn't require much in the way of technique and I've always been pretty good at those. But swimming has been an ass-kicker. My technique has always been terrible and now that I'm finally starting to understand what I'm supposed to be doing and therefore working on it, my swimming is starting to suck less, I'm still not all that fast. I'm one of those 1:40 guys that are mentioned over and over in this thread. So I've been trying over the last few years to really emphasize technique. My sets are long, 250-500m because I can't really focus on technique in short intervals. Also, when I run hard or ride hard the duration of the interval is still pretty much the same as those 250-500m intervals.

big slow mover's post is the opposite of all of that. "Don't worry about technique". "Focus on short intervals, 3min or less in duration".

if he's right, everything I'm doing is wrong. So do we really think that swimming is somehow unique such that short intervals (100m) should be the focus of training?

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Wow.. Way to resurrect an old thread! :)

Swimming through college and on a masters team, we have a steady diet of 100s 75s,150s 200s etc. Maybe one time a week we'll swim a main set with 400s... But thats to build endurance. People get fast on the 100s and 200s and technique work.

If a 500 winds up in the set, expect a healthy dose of groaning from the team.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]
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dcohen24 wrote:
Wow.. Way to resurrect an old thread! :)

Swimming through college and on a masters team, we have a steady diet of 100s 75s,150s 200s etc. Maybe one time a week we'll swim a main set with 400s... But thats to build endurance. People get fast on the 100s and 200s and technique work.

If a 500 winds up in the set, expect a healthy dose of groaning from the team.

this..

if you can't develop good technique in a short repeat, how do you expect to do it in a long repeat? fatigue makes things worse, not better.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Re. resurrecting the thread. In a recent thread someone mentioned this TI thread so I went looking for it. Long thread so I'm only halfway thru.

Re. TI. I found it very helpful. I went decades trying to swim but not really understanding that I didn't know how to swim. The TI videos helped me understand the catch, pull, long and skinny, good body position, all that basic stuff that I'd not understood. After a year or so that I realized that I was way over-gliding and my stroke rate was <1/2 what it should be. So I shifted to SwimSmooth and that helped fix my TI problems.

So I'm grateful to TI. I think it can be really good for someone that is a complete novice.

Re. how can you work on technique if you're going slow. Hmm. Well, near as I can tell, the only time I can work on technique is when I'm going slow. Once I get something kinda fixed going slow, I work on "keeping it fixed" as I go faster and/or get tired.

I still don't really understand the obsession, in swimming, of short intervals. In college I was ok as a runner at distances ranging from a mile to a 10km. The kind of swim training, 50, 75, 100, 200's that folks talk up, remind me of training to be a miler. I don't mean running 50's, 75's, etc, I mean the time duration of the interval. The intervals just seem kinda short. A relative novice training up for a 25min running race wouldn't be using 40sec or 80sec duration repeats as their bread and butter. So why is swimming perceived to require shorter intervals?

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)

Because there are a bunch of triathletes who think the same way you do, and just do an hour straight.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Because swimming is more technique based than running or cycling. The short intervals let you maintain good technique throughout the set, and by doing a lot of them you still get the aerobic base.

Wasn't uncommon to have a main set of 4000m in college for us middle distance guys. 40x100 on an off time that gave us 10 s rest.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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I'm confused by your statement that you "can't really focus on technique in short intervals" why? That seems to be the best time to focus on technique. When you're not exhausted.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Because swimming is more technique based than running or cycling. The short intervals let you maintain good technique throughout the set, and by doing a lot of them you still get the aerobic base.

Wasn't uncommon to have a main set of 4000m in college for us middle distance guys. 40x100 on an off time that gave us 10 s rest.

Every season in high school my daughter and her varsity teammates would do 100x100s on a saturday before sectionals.

Fucking nuts!

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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I did that set on or around Dec 29th 2015. Missed it last year.

It's hard.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
I'm confused by your statement that you "can't really focus on technique in short intervals" why? That seems to be the best time to focus on technique. When you're not exhausted.
In order to fix a problem or trying something a little different I have to do it slowly and carefully. Once I start "getting it", that is to say I can "usually "do the "little different thing" w/ only 10% of my brain cells focused on it instead of 80%, I'll go a little faster and try to keep it fixed. It can easily take a couple weeks just going from the 80% focus to the 10% focus so it's a meticulous and difficult process to fix a single problem.

If I'm doing a hard 100, I lose all feeling for the drag I'm trying to keep at a minimum, and the propulsion that I'm trying to make efficient. When I go hard, I lose all grasp of the subtleties of swimming. And it's precisely those subtleties that I'm trying to grasp.

Also, because I lose my tenuous grasp of decent technique if I push hard, the resulting poor technique chews up my shoulders. So I have to be careful not to swim so hard that I push water down in the catch. At some point if I start going fast, i won't be able to be careful enough re. making sure that I don't push my hand down in the slightest as I'm setting up for the catch. Then I'll lose a couple days while my shoulder heals up.

I've seen our kids improve their technique more in one pool session that I've done in a year. I stood there in the pool jaw agape as I watched them actually doing what I was trying to show them. I thought to myself "the improvement I just saw is impossible". I don't know wtf my malfunction is, but learning decent swim technique has been incredibly difficult.

We had Hurricane Irma pass thru the region last week. As a result I'd not swam in a week. When I got back to the pool a couple days ago, I had to spend 2000m with a pull buoy just so I could remember how to swim. I've been swimming 3-5x/wk for the past year, more than at any other point in my life. Yet I lay off for a week and I've forgotten how to swim. Good technique is so tricky that not only are small lessons hard won, but w/o constant reinforcement those skills will start vanishing almost immediately.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Well, 100's don't need to be hard to the point that you lose motor control.

I make a point of trying to swim intervals with the same technique, turnover, etc that I will be racing at. That means that 100's are typically at 400-1500 race pace.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Have you considered joining a masters group? Not a triathlon group... but masters swimmers.

I was an adult onset swimmer. I, too, learned the basics of TI (which I found hugely helpful in learning the basic body position concepts). However, masters is where I took things to a different level. At some point, you need to stop sweating the small stuff and learning to swim hard and focus on technique while doing so. Masters gives you an opportunity to swim with and learn from stronger swimmers. All you need to do is show up consistently, put in the work, and you will get stronger.

I think, for people who don't naturally "get" swimming, there can be a bit of paralysis thru analysis thing happening with all the technique you are trying to master at once. It can be hard to try to, you know, keep your legs elevated, while maintaining a neutral head position, while trying not to cross over the centreline too much, while thinking about EVF, etc etc.

When you mention you need to be swimming very slowly to grasp the technique, consider this: Do you learn how to run by running in slow motion? Surely you adjust your pace to be sustainable, but, you don't go through the motions slower then you otherwise would. Do you learn a smooth pedal stroke by pedalling at 15 RPM?

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
Have you considered joining a masters group? Not a triathlon group... but masters swimmers.

I was an adult onset swimmer. I, too, learned the basics of TI (which I found hugely helpful in learning the basic body position concepts). However, masters is where I took things to a different level. At some point, you need to stop sweating the small stuff and learning to swim hard and focus on technique while doing so. Masters gives you an opportunity to swim with and learn from stronger swimmers. All you need to do is show up consistently, put in the work, and you will get stronger.
I think, for people who don't naturally "get" swimming, there can be a bit of paralysis thru analysis thing happening with all the technique you are trying to master at once. It can be hard to try to, you know, keep your legs elevated, while maintaining a neutral head position, while trying not to cross over the centerline too much, while thinking about EVF, etc etc.
When you mention you need to be swimming very slowly to grasp the technique, consider this: Do you learn how to run by running in slow motion? Surely you adjust your pace to be sustainable, but, you don't go through the motions slower then you otherwise would. Do you learn a smooth pedal stroke by pedaling at 15 RPM?

BC - That's a great way to put it and is something I've kind of intuitively thought for years but never put it into words per se. If I had to try to learn to swim thinking about all that stuff, I'd be forked without any doubt. While it may not work for everyone, I still think simply watching good swimmers and imitating their form is the best, easiest way to learn to swim reasonably well. Also, it helps to have a good swimmer watch your form every so often to see if you're "getting it". This is where Masters swimming helps so much: lots of good swimmers to watch and imitate, and lots to watch you and give pointers.


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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)

I never eat steak with a fork. I just use a popsicle stick as my preferred utensil every time I cook up a steak. So again, if all these folks eating steak with only a fork is the "best" way to eat steak, why am I not starving? :)

Dave, you are a very good runner and do pretty well on the bike and swim as well. No denying that and your overall results speak for themselves. THINKING is your limiter, and that's a shame, because it doesn't have to be. So do you want to learn a little something about swim training and get just a little faster, or not?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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What's the rest interval on those? No matter your answer 100X100 just sounds unpleasant.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Just a very minor contribution to the thread:

I know Terry, and trained with him a couple of years ago when he came through Germany to visit his nephew and do a couple of swim clinics.

We didn't swim anything longer than 100m (50LCM), but we swam a LOT of them. His thing was to hold a time per 100m whilst holding a set SPL. His slightly-more-advanced training philosophy, for people that aren't beginners/BOP triathletes, seems to be based around increasing speed at a set SPL.

It was bloody hard work, enjoyable. He's a fit bugger.

I would just like to say that I am not a particularly good swimmer by any standards (7.12/500m) but I found TI helped me a lot, in terms of body position, catch etc. Would I have have got to a similar standard with another coach, or by joining a Masters group? Maybe.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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 I actually walked on as a junior In college. I was a triathlete and actually a diver.. I could swim, but had never been in a team..
When I started swimming swimmer sets, I got faster, even though I was competing for AG wins most weekends as a junior.


As to why you aren't last, likely, you have some natural talent. I know every slowtwitcher prides themselves on having zero talent and can attribute 100% of their accomplishments on hard work, but it's likely not true.

You are tall with long arms. A ship moving through water is limited by the length of the hull... You have a longer hull and can go faster. Appropriate of being in a TI thread, but much of what Terry thought was about how to maintain the longest narrowest form in the water
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I see what you're saying, but both running a biking are effected much less by technique than is swimming. I know many non-athletic folks that are simply faster than me in the water due to form. I think more people suffer from poor technique than lack of fitness in the pool.




lightheir wrote:
In Reply To:
ive got a long way to go before I can swim as fast as my coach who doesn't really train anymore at all.

that would suggest to me that technique is still my major limiter

Im at like 10x100@1:40 he is at infinityx100 at 1:10

heh


I highly doubt that it's all technique.

To give a related example, I'm was a pure runner, and trained very hard (70-100 mpw), and had a stress fx 2 years ago. Took 4 months completely off running and I couldn't even bike for most of it because it was too much pressure on the foot.

Came back slowly - started with running 3 miles per week total for 2 weeks, then ramped up to 10 miles per week.

At that point, I tried a 5k and cranked it out in 19:55. (My PR is 17:50.) Definitely nowhere close to my PR, but for the typical BT forumite, that's faster than they'll ever run no matter how much they train.

You could similarly say "it was all my excellent running technique." Which is a load of bull. Serious conditioning pays huge dividends for years. But building to that level takes hard, hard work. Just because the experts make it look easy doesn't mean that they didn't train their rear off to get it in the first place.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
Have you considered joining a masters group? Not a triathlon group... but masters swimmers.

I was an adult onset swimmer. I, too, learned the basics of TI (which I found hugely helpful in learning the basic body position concepts). However, masters is where I took things to a different level. At some point, you need to stop sweating the small stuff and learning to swim hard and focus on technique while doing so. Masters gives you an opportunity to swim with and learn from stronger swimmers. All you need to do is show up consistently, put in the work, and you will get stronger.

I think, for people who don't naturally "get" swimming, there can be a bit of paralysis thru analysis thing happening with all the technique you are trying to master at once. It can be hard to try to, you know, keep your legs elevated, while maintaining a neutral head position, while trying not to cross over the centreline too much, while thinking about EVF, etc etc.

When you mention you need to be swimming very slowly to grasp the technique, consider this: Do you learn how to run by running in slow motion? Surely you adjust your pace to be sustainable, but, you don't go through the motions slower then you otherwise would. Do you learn a smooth pedal stroke by pedalling at 15 RPM?

I have a bunch of buddies that link up for a Master's swim at 0530 each morning, but I've never been too motivated to join them. It's really convenient for me to swim in the early evening immed after work. I'd really have to be desperate to instead get up at 0445 to get to be in the pool at 0530. Viewed from the outside, serious triathletes seem to have infinite discipline to train. But when I look in the mirror I perceive my discipline to be a pretty fragile reed.

Coaching. If the Masters swim program was my only access to a coach I liked, I'd do it. But they don't. That said, I'm on the cusp of linking up with some local coaches, one of them is a 50m freestyle world champion, so that's coming together.

Re. learning to swim in slow motion vs. learning to run and ride. I see them as very different. To me, learning to swim is like learning ballet in that it's terribly difficult to learn good technique. One must practice under the careful eye of a master for years to learn good technique. This in contrast to my children making huge improvements in a single session.

No one taught me to run or ride. Yet in the 80's I ran and cycled in the Big10 and PAC10. I was never one of the fastest on the team, but I was fast enough to be useful. I started doing triathlons in '85 and my swimming sucked for decades, DECADES!. I had no idea that I didn't know how to swim. Some people, like our kids, figure out workable technique quickly, but I'm pathetic. So in order to fix a problem I have to go at "forever" pace so I can carefully concentrate on fixing the problem.

There's talk in this thread re. "in order to do a 24min 1500, you don't need to be fit. You just need good technique". I marvel at that. I can jump into a 5km road race and with a 19flat likely crush any other 55-59yr old in my group. But I swim as much as my shoulders will tolerate, 7500m/wk, and I can't hit the 24min "line of derision".

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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One of the big issues is that as guys get older, and you are older, sorry :-( we lose a lot of the flexibility that good technique requires. It is a lot like ballet, in that you NEED that flexibility. Kids have it. adults don't, unless they developed it as kids. If you never had it to begin with, then you probably won't develop it. I'm not saying you can't, because I don't know, but the flexibillity is hard to develop. Maybe work in some yoga sessions? just guessing.

I'm a little younger than you, but I can sleep my way to a 24 min 1500 in the pool. but that's because I have pretty good flexibility and body position. I have some horrible stroke flaws, but the basics are pretty good.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
Running and cycling doesn't require much in the way of technique and I've always been pretty good at those. But swimming has been an ass-kicker. My technique has always been terrible and now that I'm finally starting to understand what I'm supposed to be doing and therefore working on it, my swimming is starting to suck less, I'm still not all that fast.

Yes, technique is not super essential in running, you are right about that.
Why?
Well, humans have been running for likely a couple million years (maybe longer), so our evolution has made it so that proper running technique is hard-wired into our bodies and brains. All you have to do is run, and run more, and your body will naturally select the best and most efficient technique for you.

However, technique IS actually essential in both swimming and cycling.

It is just that in cycling, it is not so much movement technique, it is more the technique of proper equipment choice, proper wheel/tire/tube choice, proper equipment set up, proper fit, and a highly aero body position. Those are all very important if you want ride at the pointy end of the spear.

And, then, since we are not inherently evolved to swim, movement technique is critical to swimming. Swimming movement patterns must be learned and then highly refined if you hope to swim fast, irrelevant of how fit you are. If you're very fit, but your technique sucks, you will still swim slow. (That said, if your technique is great, you still need great fitness on top of that to swim at the pointy end of the spear.)

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
One of the big issues is that as guys get older, and you are older, sorry :-( we lose a lot of the flexibility that good technique requires. It is a lot like ballet, in that you NEED that flexibility. Kids have it. adults don't, unless they developed it as kids. If you never had it to begin with, then you probably won't develop it. I'm not saying you can't, because I don't know, but the flexibillity is hard to develop. Maybe work in some yoga sessions? just guessing.

I'm a little younger than you, but I can sleep my way to a 24 min 1500 in the pool. but that's because I have pretty good flexibility and body position. I have some horrible stroke flaws, but the basics are pretty good.

Re. flexibility. I hear you, and I accept that older folks won't have the flexibility of youngsters. It also doesn't help that I've been somewhat of a weight lifter since college. But if I'm shown what I need to work on, I'm pretty disciplined about working on it. My ankles are a lot more flexible now then they were a year ago because I work on them every day.

In a brief conversation at the pool the other week I had a coach tell me that my right shoulder is not as flexible as my left, but I can't convert that comment into clear guidance as to what exactly to work on. I looked up some swimming stretches and they all seemed pretty generic and things that (I perceive) I can do just fine. I figure that this is an area that a coach would have to show me what the problem is, and what I need to do to fix it.

Re. sleeping your way to a 24min 1500. That is just amazing to me. I shake my head with wonder.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)


Aren't you like 6'5"? The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second. I'd imagine the average height of a triathlete is about 5'10" so your natural "speed limit" is about 10% higher. Perhaps you're swimming below your potential.

Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.
Last edited by: GreenPlease: Sep 18, 17 9:02
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
One of the big issues is that as guys get older, and you are older, sorry :-( we lose a lot of the flexibility that good technique requires. It is a lot like ballet, in that you NEED that flexibility. Kids have it. adults don't, unless they developed it as kids. If you never had it to begin with, then you probably won't develop it. I'm not saying you can't, because I don't know, but the flexibillity is hard to develop. Maybe work in some yoga sessions? just guessing.

I'm a little younger than you, but I can sleep my way to a 24 min 1500 in the pool. but that's because I have pretty good flexibility and body position. I have some horrible stroke flaws, but the basics are pretty good.

Jason - what are the swim motions in freestyle that us less flexible folks are really limited in? I'd like to work on my arm flexibility for freestyle, but I want it to be freestyle-specific and effective.

I used to feel that my lack of a good EVF was mainly because of poor shoulder/elbow flexibility (which def may be true to a significant degree!) but I recently improved it a lot by entering and pulling a LOT wider - I was making the typical rookie error of keeping the entry too close to midline, which makes an EVF near-impossible. I videod myself in both the pool and on my Vasa with the much wider arm entry and the EVF motion was significantly better, and not requiring a real amount of flexibility so far, so I probably still have some technique-related fruit to pick off.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Taking the flexibility issue even further: the years of swimming done by life-long swimmers creates the flexibility that is specific for swimming. The ability to press the shoulders against the ears with straight arms overhead joined at the hands is from the constant freestyle stroke and coaches hounding swimmers to STREAMLINE. The ankle flexibility is from years of kicking, either as part of the stroke, or in kick sets. This is part of the major struggle for Adult-Onset Swimmers: they don't have this hard-earned, swim-specific flexibility (in freestyle for OWS), coupled with not having created the stroke-pattern and stroke-teq motor units ("muscle memory") over the years. Additionally, kids have more plastic motor units while they learn swimming. After yeas of training, they can spend more time in neural and metabolic training while they swim, because they aren't thinking so much about their strokes. It's not that AOS will never get these skills, but they should be realistic that these skills will be harder to come by.

Personal illustrations: I'm a life-long swimmer, a distance freestyler. I have great shoulder range-of-motion (ROM) flexibility. I have slightly more in my left side upper back than right side, because I breathe 90% on the right side. I also have typical swimmer ankles. When I started running seriously, I had to muscle my legs through the motion, because I didn't have the tightness and elasticity in my ankles from years of running. Eventually, the ankles got much tighter, and I got much better at running. But, when I returned to swimming, my kick was much worse than it had been, because the ROM wasn't there in my ankles.

I've coached some pretty strong triathletes in masters swimming, including some KQ's. They come to swimming from running or cycling. One guy in particular really struggled with his swim, but was pretty strong in B & R (he has a 2:2x best in his heyday). One November, I had him swim almost all of his yards with fins, because I knew the fins would help him gain some ankle ROM. It made a huge difference for him, going from struggling to make 100y @ 1:25, to making 10-12 @ 1:20 (without fins).
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Shoulder mobility in general. A lot of guys can't easily put their elbows behind the head, or extend the scapula. That's what gets a GOOD streamline, and a good streamline is key. More than power. streamline streamline streamline.

While there is a lot of talk of EVF, it isn't necessary for a decent swim. Just don't lead the pull with your elbow, and that gets you most of the way there.

ETA - just read what 140triguy has to say.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Sep 18, 17 9:32
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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 been, because the ROM wasn't there in my ankles.

I've coached some pretty strong triathletes in masters swimming, including some KQ's. They come to swimming from running or cycling. One guy in particular really struggled with his swim, but was pretty strong in B & R (he has a 2:2x best in his heyday). One November, I had him swim almost all of his yards with fins, because I knew the fins would help him gain some ankle ROM. It made a huge difference for him, going from struggling to make 100y @ 1:25, to making 10-12 @ 1:20 (without fins).[/quote]This is interesting. What size fins?

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Shoulder mobility in general. A lot of guys can't easily put their elbows behind the head, or extend the scapula.

While there is a lot of talk of EVF, it isn't necessary for a decent swim. Just don't lead the pull with your elbow, and that gets you most of the way there.


I'm still trying to picture where/how a mobile shoulder helps a lot for freestyle thought, that's my question, since if EVF doesn't necessarily require big shoulder mobility, what propulsive or drag-reducing factors through mobility help in freestyle?

I mean, most men <55 can easily streamline their arm against their ear in extension.

The main area I see shoulder flexibility helping a lot is the high-elbow recovery phase, but that component should pale in component to a strong EVF pull.
Last edited by: lightheir: Sep 18, 17 9:32
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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the mobility in the shoulder gets you more ROM, more DPS, and more effective use of large muscle groups in your back, as well as presenting a narrower profile to the water.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
BCtriguy1 wrote:
Have you considered joining a masters group? Not a triathlon group... but masters swimmers.

I was an adult onset swimmer. I, too, learned the basics of TI (which I found hugely helpful in learning the basic body position concepts). However, masters is where I took things to a different level. At some point, you need to stop sweating the small stuff and learning to swim hard and focus on technique while doing so. Masters gives you an opportunity to swim with and learn from stronger swimmers. All you need to do is show up consistently, put in the work, and you will get stronger.

I think, for people who don't naturally "get" swimming, there can be a bit of paralysis thru analysis thing happening with all the technique you are trying to master at once. It can be hard to try to, you know, keep your legs elevated, while maintaining a neutral head position, while trying not to cross over the centreline too much, while thinking about EVF, etc etc.

When you mention you need to be swimming very slowly to grasp the technique, consider this: Do you learn how to run by running in slow motion? Surely you adjust your pace to be sustainable, but, you don't go through the motions slower then you otherwise would. Do you learn a smooth pedal stroke by pedalling at 15 RPM?


I have a bunch of buddies that link up for a Master's swim at 0530 each morning, but I've never been too motivated to join them. It's really convenient for me to swim in the early evening immed after work. I'd really have to be desperate to instead get up at 0445 to get to be in the pool at 0530. Viewed from the outside, serious triathletes seem to have infinite discipline to train. But when I look in the mirror I perceive my discipline to be a pretty fragile reed.

Coaching. If the Masters swim program was my only access to a coach I liked, I'd do it. But they don't. That said, I'm on the cusp of linking up with some local coaches, one of them is a 50m freestyle world champion, so that's coming together.

Re. learning to swim in slow motion vs. learning to run and ride. I see them as very different. To me, learning to swim is like learning ballet in that it's terribly difficult to learn good technique. One must practice under the careful eye of a master for years to learn good technique. This in contrast to my children making huge improvements in a single session.

No one taught me to run or ride. Yet in the 80's I ran and cycled in the Big10 and PAC10. I was never one of the fastest on the team, but I was fast enough to be useful. I started doing triathlons in '85 and my swimming sucked for decades, DECADES!. I had no idea that I didn't know how to swim. Some people, like our kids, figure out workable technique quickly, but I'm pathetic. So in order to fix a problem I have to go at "forever" pace so I can carefully concentrate on fixing the problem.

There's talk in this thread re. "in order to do a 24min 1500, you don't need to be fit. You just need good technique". I marvel at that. I can jump into a 5km road race and with a 19flat likely crush any other 55-59yr old in my group. But I swim as much as my shoulders will tolerate, 7500m/wk, and I can't hit the 24min "line of derision".

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)


Aren't you like 6'5"? The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second. I'd imagine the average height of a triathlete is about 5'10" so your natural "speed limit" is about 10% higher. Perhaps you're swimming below your potential.

Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.

Since I am an adult onset swimmer, ...

When I was swimming masters 5 days a week, yep, I was faster.

I used to swim 24, I now swim 26.

I just do not want to be a slave to numbers. Plus since I go right from the swim to the bike trainer, got to have some energy left.

At my age of 60, the trick competing is NO longer speed, it is just getting to the starting line healthy.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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yes real resistance in water only starts taking effect at a certain speed once you get to that critical speed working hard comes into effect but up until that point it should be technique all the way..


The main issue is that there are not many coaches who can actually tell you how to fix your flaws, TI doesnt do that either its a cookie cutter approach which from my experience didnt work for me
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Honey] [ In reply to ]
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Regular sized fins, not the short zoomer style. Not SCUBA fins, though.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)


Aren't you like 6'5"? The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second. I'd imagine the average height of a triathlete is about 5'10" so your natural "speed limit" is about 10% higher. Perhaps you're swimming below your potential.

Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.

Perhaps it is semantics, but I've won my AG in many sprint triathlons in which my winning time gap was less than the amount I beat second place in the swim alone. You could say that everyone else lost the triathlon with a slow swim.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)


Aren't you like 6'5"? The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second. I'd imagine the average height of a triathlete is about 5'10" so your natural "speed limit" is about 10% higher. Perhaps you're swimming below your potential.

Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.


Perhaps it is semantics, but I've won my AG in many sprint triathlons in which my winning time gap was less than the amount I beat second place in the swim alone. You could say that everyone else lost the triathlon with a slow swim.

A strong swim seemed to work out OK for the front 2 guys at 70.3 worlds. (yes I know gomez dropped back on the bike, but the strong swim really set up Kanute for a strong bike out of sight of the chasers.)

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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My point was broadly about diminishing returns. Once someone is coming out of the water within a minute of the leader, an extra hour of training per week on the bike/run will generally net you more time than an extra hour in the pool.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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"The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second."

GP - Where did you hear or read this??? The Race Club??? This is new info to me.

Cheers,

Eric


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
Glad to see you made it out of TI with your brain intact;) For anyone who wants to read evidence based articles on why TI can't and won't lead to fast swimming feel free to read. Evidence based beyond anecdotal and the glaring fact you don't find fast TI swimmers>>>> to the kind of evidence from guys with pocket protectors and lots of letters behind their names. I realize it's a bit different than 'LOL' and boxing analogies so mea culpa for upping the ante with respect to gray matter utilization. Oustanding site with tons of studies from limb/water velocities, drag and even on to the psychological frontiers.

Read a neat one detailing how swimming short course vs long can lead to changes in fitness and stroke rate/length. I knew I always felt different beyond swimming longer b/t turns when long course opened up, but never considered the other aspects. Long course pool opens this weekend! Damn scy drives me nuts vs lcm.

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/toussai1.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/schnitzl.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/biomechs/keys.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/fernande.htm

I've been reading these. Interesting that they came from my own school. Can someone explain this one to me pls? http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

It says that as folks start swimming faster "catch up" style disappears and most everyone transitions to an "overlap" style. But when I chased after the distinction between those two, I found that Google seem to perceive them as pretty much synonymous.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
Glad to see you made it out of TI with your brain intact;) For anyone who wants to read evidence based articles on why TI can't and won't lead to fast swimming feel free to read. Evidence based beyond anecdotal and the glaring fact you don't find fast TI swimmers>>>> to the kind of evidence from guys with pocket protectors and lots of letters behind their names. I realize it's a bit different than 'LOL' and boxing analogies so mea culpa for upping the ante with respect to gray matter utilization. Oustanding site with tons of studies from limb/water velocities, drag and even on to the psychological frontiers.


Read a neat one detailing how swimming short course vs long can lead to changes in fitness and stroke rate/length. I knew I always felt different beyond swimming longer b/t turns when long course opened up, but never considered the other aspects. Long course pool opens this weekend! Damn scy drives me nuts vs lcm.

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/toussai1.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/schnitzl.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/biomechs/keys.htm

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/...iomechs/fernande.htm


I've been reading these. Interesting that they came from my own school. Can someone explain this one to me pls? http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

It says that as folks start swimming faster "catch up" style disappears and most everyone transitions to an "overlap" style. But when I chased after the distinction between those two, I found that Google seem to perceive them as pretty much synonymous.


Catch-up has a pause between the end of one pull and starting the next. Overlap, the pull starts before the opposite arm is finished.

in here --> http://www.swimsmoothforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2690


"Might be the wrong terminology.
It's kinda referenced in the van Hazel video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs
When I say overlap I mean when the "time between strokes (sec)" as seen in that video goes negative, you can see this when Jon switches to his ultimate form at about 2:30."

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
"The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second."

GP - Where did you hear or read this??? The Race Club??? This is new info to me.

Cheers,

Eric

I've seen it multiple places. Most prominently I recall hearing it from Alexander Popov's coach in a YouTube video. The notion is probably derived from this: http://www.boats.com/...length/#.WcALbtN97zI

Quote:
As a very general rule the maximum speed of any displacement hull--commonly called its hull speed--is governed by a simple formula: hull speed in knots equals 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length in feet (HS = 1.34 x √LWL). Thus, for example, if you have a 35-foot boat with a waterline length of 28 feet, its hull speed works out to a little over 7 knots (1.34 x √28 = 7.09).

My rudimentary understanding is that to go faster than this you have to outrun your bow wake which is kind of like breaking the sound barrier: it can be done but the power needed rises rapidly.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)

More great strawman arguments here. No one has said intervals is the only way to train. I think most would agree that it is by far the best way to get really fast in the pool. If you don't care about being really fast (ie reaching your potential) by all means, swim LSD hour long workouts and burn a bunch of calories.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)


Aren't you like 6'5"? The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second. I'd imagine the average height of a triathlete is about 5'10" so your natural "speed limit" is about 10% higher. Perhaps you're swimming below your potential.

Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.


Perhaps it is semantics, but I've won my AG in many sprint triathlons in which my winning time gap was less than the amount I beat second place in the swim alone. You could say that everyone else lost the triathlon with a slow swim.

I've definitely lost local sprint triathlons due to my slow swims. at sprint distance in my local triathlons I do okay in my age group but I know I have to hope I can chase down people on the bike and run. I just lose a bunch of time in the swim and at sprint distance, it's hard to make up that much time on the bike and run.

I think I'll spend more time on my swimming this offseason just because I'd like to see more improvement and I like swimming as it's less rough on my body compared to running.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
"The theoretical "speed limit" for most swimmers is one body length per second."

GP - Where did you hear or read this??? The Race Club??? This is new info to me.

Cheers,

Eric


I've seen it multiple places. Most prominently I recall hearing it from Alexander Popov's coach in a YouTube video. The notion is probably derived from this: http://www.boats.com/...length/#.WcALbtN97zI
Quote:
As a very general rule the maximum speed of any displacement hull--commonly called its hull speed--is governed by a simple formula: hull speed in knots equals 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length in feet (HS = 1.34 x √LWL). Thus, for example, if you have a 35-foot boat with a waterline length of 28 feet, its hull speed works out to a little over 7 knots (1.34 x √28 = 7.09).

My rudimentary understanding is that to go faster than this you have to outrun your bow wake which is kind of like breaking the sound barrier: it can be done but the power needed rises rapidly.

Interesting. I've done a fair amount of reading on swimming but have never run across this. Thanks for this info, I'll play around with the math later this evening.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Well, 100's don't need to be hard to the point that you lose motor control.

I make a point of trying to swim intervals with the same technique, turnover, etc that I will be racing at. That means that 100's are typically at 400-1500 race pace.


That's a good point. My vision of those 100's were "significantly faster than 1500m race pace" just like if I was running interval quarters. So maybe I'm too wrapped up into the idea of "swimming intervals need to be at VO2Max".

Subject change. I finally made it thru this whole goddamned thread. Jesus christ, Hotman owes me 1/2 a day of my life back. I can't believe I stuck it out. The first half dozen pages of the thread were useful and I kept expecting that usefulness to come back. But no, it was just the Hotman silliness page after page.

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Last edited by: RangerGress: Sep 19, 17 9:29
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ In reply to ]
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Early in this thread there were numerous references to Gary Hall Sr, to include links to videos. I watched a video and GH was talking about keeping the elbow high. That is to day during the early stage of the pull the elbow should be relatively shallow in water. A line drawn thru both shoulders to the pulling elbow, again this is early in the pull should be relatively straight. This is definitely a more shallow elbow than what I'm trying to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRN4AAT8XaE

Then I went back to Swim Smooth and they show the elbow as clearly deeper then GH wants.

http://www.swimsmooth.com/catch_adv.html

How say y'all?

Hotman, your thoughts? <I was tempted to put some CAPS and lol into that joke, but I was wary of crossing the line between mildly amusing and cringing.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
RangerGress wrote:

I've been reading these. Interesting that they came from my own school. Can someone explain this one to me pls? http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../biomechs/millet.htm

It says that as folks start swimming faster "catch up" style disappears and most everyone transitions to an "overlap" style. But when I chased after the distinction between those two, I found that Google seem to perceive them as pretty much synonymous.


Catch-up has a pause between the end of one pull and starting the next. Overlap, the pull starts before the opposite arm is finished.

in here --> http://www.swimsmoothforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2690


"Might be the wrong terminology.
It's kinda referenced in the van Hazel video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs
When I say overlap I mean when the "time between strokes (sec)" as seen in that video goes negative, you can see this when Jon switches to his ultimate form at about 2:30."

I read the Swimsmooth forum page and watched the video a couple times. Just to double-check that I understand....Catchup is "more overlap than overlap". In order to achieve it, you've got to extend the glide. So if you're getting a lot of "front quadrant" time, you've got one hand that is always forward of the head, but you're doing it w/o obvious time spend gliding, that's "Overlap".

I have it right?

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
One November, I had him swim almost all of his yards with fins, because I knew the fins would help him gain some ankle ROM. It made a huge difference for him, going from struggling to make 100y @ 1:25, to making 10-12 @ 1:20 (without fins).

during a time of broken ribs, I swam with fins only, for about 2 months, even split between back swimming and front with snorkel. It made my backstroke kick way more effective, 3-5sec drop in a 100 when I started actually swimming again. Freestyle kick is still a feeble sort of six-beat affair in longer swims but did change my kick and improve 50yd time.. believe it did help my stiff old-man-runner ankles..
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW I've never heard of "overlap" timing but what you're talking about is often referred to as "rotary" timing (at least that's what I've heard it called).
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I had to google it. It isn't something I pay a lot of attention to, other than trying not to slow down between strokes.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Well, 100's don't need to be hard to the point that you lose motor control.

I make a point of trying to swim intervals with the same technique, turnover, etc that I will be racing at. That means that 100's are typically at 400-1500 race pace.


That's a good point. My vision of those 100's were "significantly faster than 1500m race pace" just like if I was running interval quarters. So maybe I'm too wrapped up into the idea of "swimming intervals need to at VO2Max".
Ok, you guys converted me. This evening I worked in 10x100's, each at 1:35. I can see the charm in them. But it's not just a matter of short intervals and fitness. That's where you guys are kinda over-selling it. To convince hard-heads like me, tell them...."it's not about endless VO2max intervals. Sure, there's some of those, but it's also about getting "comfortable" at race pace."

This evening, in addition to the impact of the 100's on fitness, I could totally understand the need for me to learn to be smooth, efficient, and powerful at that pace. An idea that had kind of eluded me because I'd become obsessed with working on my problems at a slower pace. Because the intervals were short, being able to concentrate on technique wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. It was a big win. Next time you guys are in Savannah, GA, the beer's on me.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Shoulder mobility in general. A lot of guys can't easily put their elbows behind the head, or extend the scapula.

While there is a lot of talk of EVF, it isn't necessary for a decent swim. Just don't lead the pull with your elbow, and that gets you most of the way there.


I'm still trying to picture where/how a mobile shoulder helps a lot for freestyle thought, that's my question, since if EVF doesn't necessarily require big shoulder mobility, what propulsive or drag-reducing factors through mobility help in freestyle?

I mean, most men <55 can easily streamline their arm against their ear in extension.

The main area I see shoulder flexibility helping a lot is the high-elbow recovery phase, but that component should pale in component to a strong EVF pull.

I agree with Jasoninhalifax about ROM for streamlining. But I also think that poor shoulder mobility has a big impact on proper timing of the stroke and ability to quickly catch and pull (i.e. EVF). If you have poor mobility in the shoulders, you won't be able to execute a good high elbow catch early enough, and will have to wait for your body to start rolling back the other way before you can master it. This results in more of a catch-up style. This is lack of shoulder mobility-induced catch-up style. The alternative if you don't want to do catch-up is to pull with a dropped elbow, unfortunately. And this is even slower. Those have been my observations anyway.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
Early in this thread there were numerous references to Gary Hall Sr, to include links to videos. I watched a video and GH was talking about keeping the elbow high. That is to day during the early stage of the pull the elbow should be relatively shallow in water. A line drawn thru both shoulders to the pulling elbow, again this is early in the pull should be relatively straight. This is definitely a more shallow elbow than what I'm trying to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRN4AAT8XaE
Then I went back to Swim Smooth and they show the elbow as clearly deeper then GH wants.
http://www.swimsmooth.com/catch_adv.html
How say y'all?
Hotman, your thoughts? <I was tempted to put some CAPS and lol into that joke, but I was wary of crossing the line between mildly amusing and cringing.

Unfortunately, our beloved Hotman has not logged into ST since Aug 2013 so we are unlikely to hear his latest theories anytime soon, unless he comes back suddenly. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
terry laughlin himself can keep putting out that garbage slow swimming while the rest of the swimming world gets fast.

as usual, someone is trying to sell a gimmick to lazy rich triathletes that want to skip the work.

the only truth he spouts is a ridiculously verbose wall of text that really simply means, pace well.

"You can't win the race during the swim leg, but you can certainly lose it - or seriously compromise your chances for a satisfying outcome. Unless you are a near-elite, who practiced lots of "red-line" swimming in your youth, your best races will happen when you keep your HR relatively low during the swim and can recover it fully within 90 sec to 2 minutes of leaving the water."

"brevity is the soul of wit" LOL


I will admit- I bought into the TI Kool-Aid last year when I started triathlons. I have only been swimming for about 20 months but in all honesty, it helped me a lot- to a point. I spent a lot of time focusing on their drills and "feeling" the water.

After I could swim relatively decent (decent being a stretch) then came the hard work. Just with anything, you need to put the time and effort into the workout to become faster.

Maybe some people have the talent I lack. However, if I want to run a 5k in 20:00, I better be able to complete half-mile repeats under 3:00 and mile repeats around 6:00. For me, I have to train my body at that pace in order to hit that pace.

Again, for me, the same goes for swimming. If I want to average 1:40/100 on my next sprint, I should probably be hitting 1:30-1:35 in the pool or it's not going to happen. I can tell you for certain if all I do is swim 2:00/100- chances are my swim time will be right around 2:00/100.

Again, just my opinion.


This is 100% what I experienced, and after talking to other folks in the local triclub who learned to swim with TI at the same time I did, it's the NORM, not the exception. It's really "duh, common sense!" but Terry definitely oversells his TI approach.

I think he does this subconsciously - he's an accomplished swimmer with a lifetime of swimming experience, so his "go easy" taps into that. So it likely does work for him as it does for folks who swam a bunch in childhood and revisited it as an adult.

But for adult true newb learners like myself, it's not realistic at all. How are you possible supposed to magically swim 1:40/100m for 1500m when all you do in practice is do well-rested, technique-perfect sets at your uber-comfy pace of 2:10/100m with tons of rest between each 200m? I had repeated rude awakenings of swimming closer to 2:30 in OWS on race day because of the shock of having to swim while fatigued - something I hadn't done enough in practice due to Terry's advice.

Perhaps the only good thing, in my opinion, about the outlandish claim that you can swim fast with no hard work, is that it seduces newbs (like me) who otherwise wouldn't have touched triathlon with a 10-foot pole because of our fear of the swim leg. If I knew how hard I'd have to work on the swim just to get to MOP, I almost certainly never would have started triathlon at all! But I drank Terry's cool aid, and I recall being super-excited to find that "free speed" he was talking about.

2 years later, and I've yet to find any sort of free speed in swimming. Yes, technique is crucial, and I spent an entire year doing nothing but technique, but I wouldn't call that free speed, more like avoiding drowning (slower than 2:40/100m.)

I can tell you what definitely works for a beginner like me to get a lot faster, though. Swim 15,000k per week. For months. That DEFINITELY works, and is absolutely indisputable. Regardless of what minor technical flaws you still have.

LH - Know you write this 7 yrs ago but I had to laugh when i read this!!! I think this is why so few people swim at most of your typical gyms, b/c it is just too damn frigging hard to learn, and apparently especially as an adult. You are to be commended for sticking it out and improving greatly.

Cheers,

Eric


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Heh heh - thanks ericmulk - that's a good laugh from the past from myself!

I'm still far from being a good swimmer, but I'm routinely cracking the top 20% of the field now in pretty much every race I do (I actually won the swim in my small AG M40-45 in my last local tri - REALLY soft field, but I'll take it!) and 1:40 for 1500 is really easy for me now!

Ironically now that I'm at least a MOP+ triathlete swimmer, I'm starting to work on technique more again, hoping to crack open the door to faster speed, and I think it's working, although it is hard to distinguish between just swimming 'more.'
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
DC Pattie wrote:


Watch the greatest 1500m swimmer ever (Grant Hacket) and count his stroke rate. Not much over 60 (if I'm counting correctly). Watching Hacket - long glide, perfect form, smooth strokes - reminds me very much of T1 style swimming. Of course Hacket was a tremendous athlete with a huge motor; however, from my view - holding true to many basic T1 concepts.


I guess I just don't see much of a comparison. Grant uses a very shallow and radical EVF catch while Terry enters the water closer to his head and drives straight to his pull through position almost alleviating said catch motion with a very deep arm position during the pull through. Terry has a lazy if almost non-existent 2 beat kick while Grant looks like a thunder thighs convention shot with a taser. Lastly, the pace these two guys swim at is about as similar as my 10K to one of the Brownlees.

But yea other than that I can see how one might confuse Grant Hackett as a TI swimmer.....


Tiger - I'm reading this vintage thread and saw your post; it seems like we haven't heard from you in over a year. What is up with that??? Are you still at least swimming and riding??? We miss your wise-ass commentary. :)

Cheers,

Eric


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Last edited by: ericmulk: Sep 20, 17 9:56
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I come from a high school and college swimming background. At Lake Placid this year I swam the course in 54min after getting kicked in the face 3 times by slow traffic on lap two.. had I had clear water I might have swam a 52 or so.. I wasn't tired coming out of the water either.

My training was mostly long steady swims.. 1000 repeats.. 2000 straight... 4000 straight... pretty simple stuff. Sometimes I'd do the whole set with medium sized paddles. I only did intervals once a week.. 10x100 up to 20x100.

I'm willing to bet if someone has the right technique then this kind of training would work unless you're looking to be at the pointy end of the race. I knew I had nothing to worry about in the swim.. my goal for most of my swim training was to conserve energy for my other workouts. I'm a weak runner and I usually run on swim days.

On another note.. this kind of training is pretty boring. I doubt most would find it very enjoyable.

So yeah... LSD running works for many.. same for swimming in some cases IMO.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Edit: not that it matters. You can't win a triathlon with a fast swim. You can only lose a triathlon with a slow swim. As long as you're coming out of the water close to the front, your time (anyone's time) is probably best spent on the bike/run.


Perhaps it is semantics, but I've won my AG in many sprint triathlons in which my winning time gap was less than the amount I beat second place in the swim alone. You could say that everyone else lost the triathlon with a slow swim.

yeah GreenPlease is right if we are talking about the pro level and but wrong if we are talking about amateurs.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JBcycl1st] [ In reply to ]
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At Lake Placid this year I swam the course in 54min after getting kicked in the face 3 times by slow traffic on lap two.. had I had clear water I might have swam a 52 or so..//

I was a little faster than you in my day, maybe about the same as an AG'er and I never got kicked lapping slower swimmers in 100's of races. What you need to do is to learn to sight better if you are going to be the guy setting pace. If possible, I liked to use a faster swimmer to plow the crowded waters, but often it would just be me. If you are running straight into the back of swimmers, it is your fault not theirs. Just like in a car, person in the rear is responsible for not casing crashes. There is your clear water and your 52, you're welcome... (-;
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [cantswim24] [ In reply to ]
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When you get to a speed where drag becomes an issue, it's more about "technique" at that point than finding more ways to increase power. But I can assure you that most triathletes will never see those speeds where that becomes an issue. In reality, swimming is never a decision between technique or training. It's both.

In my experience, triathletes are usually lacking in strength and conditioning in the water and technique. And it's because they don't swim enough. But at slower than 1:30/100, get in the water and swim consistently. Get your hands to enter in shoulder width apart, look down at the bottom of the pool with your head and neck in a neutral position and try to keep your body as long and flat on the water as possible. If you want to drop below 1:20/100, then you'll need to get with an experienced coach who can help with technique.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
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http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
To do TI FAST,the idea is to TURN your shoulders close to 90 degrees,THRUST your arm straight forward FORCEFULLY then"GLIDE",all in one smooth motion.The HARD THRUST does use effort just like the"SWING",but OVERALL Total Immersion is more effecient for a few reasons.#1The"THRUST"uses every muscle in the body,the"swing"uses mostly the arms.#2Because you are TURNING your shoulders your resistance though the water is WAY less so every time you"THRUST" you go further then when you"swing".Going further per"thrust"is what I call the"GLIDE".#3 The result of the"turnthrustglide" is you do less strokes in a given distance.I have observed when people are going slow with TI they TURN their shoulders ok but they do not"THRUST" hard enough so they have no"glide". SO back to my statement"If you are going slow with TI,turn more,THRUST HARDER,then glide easy."

So I've been focusing on new things in swimming lately, and I think hotman might have a point.

One of the takeaways from Gary Hall's videos recently is that good swimmers use coupling motions to create more force. One of these is the linkage between the recovering arm and pulling arm. My guess is that hotman started to feel the potential of that linkage.

I might propose Janet Evans as a good case study in the power and momentum that are possible from coupling the recovery with the pull.

I've also noticed that there are some interesting potential gains to not thinking about pulling hard (in the sense of a one rep max benchpress), but rather using the recovery arm to create better, faster timing of the pull.

Hotman was right all along. You heard it here first.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
At Lake Placid this year I swam the course in 54min after getting kicked in the face 3 times by slow traffic on lap two.. had I had clear water I might have swam a 52 or so..//

I was a little faster than you in my day, maybe about the same as an AG'er and I never got kicked lapping slower swimmers in 100's of races. What you need to do is to learn to sight better if you are going to be the guy setting pace. If possible, I liked to use a faster swimmer to plow the crowded waters, but often it would just be me. If you are running straight into the back of swimmers, it is your fault not theirs. Just like in a car, person in the rear is responsible for not casing crashes. There is your clear water and your 52, you're welcome... (-;

I definitely need to work on my sighting more and agree the person passing is responsible. In my opinion this year at Placid the later starting and slower swimmers were simply really congested around the 2nd turn buoy after turning back to the finish. I did end up sighting my way to a clean line but the mass of bodies piled up in that area was a maelstrom of limbs. Hence my 3 kicks. In any of my other races I've never had a problem.
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