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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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You can "believe" whatever you want. Literature will contradict you. A trained cyclist will have a higher vo2 reading on a cycling tests and a lower reading on a running test; a runner will have a lower reading on a cycling test and a higher one on a treadmill test. What will those differences be? I don't know.

maybe BrianCD will post numbers for you (but those would be HIS, and he is trained in cycling and running methinks)
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True in most instances; with the one exception that I know of being snowshoeing which actually increases VO2 max for RUNNING more than running itself...with this said, snowshoeing is much closer to running than cycling; so I believe that the point still stands.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [fionalaughlin] [ In reply to ]
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Hey fionalaughlin,thanks for posting! I revived this thread and tried to defend TI. If you are having trouble making cash maybe you need to RE-BRAND! Call it"Aero Swimming"or"Thrusting"(read my posts,lol).In other words make it sexier. Also make it simpler. That is the big problem with TI,it is so complicated no one understands it. Anyhow,good luck!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [fionalaughlin] [ In reply to ]
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EVERYTHING in business is related to branding! It sounds like(hard to tell from here,lol)you have lost control of your brand. They should ONLY be able to use the Total Immersion Brand if they PAY you. That is the idea of branding. And you CAN trademark a technique(Bikram Yoga did). So if you don't want to protect your brand get ready to go broke or maybe look into re-branding.Good luck!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [fionalaughlin] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe you should start your own brand! Sam Walton had a Ben Franklin's then he started Wal-Mart,look how that worked out! Call it"Aero-Swim"or whatever and then PROTECT YOUR BRAND! You can make money AND do what you want! Good Luck!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Is it better to practice with a group or solo?

Another question: Do you have a coach? And if yes, does he just stand and give advice or does he get in there with you and get wet?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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big slow mover wrote:
In swimming you also need way more intensity training, then in cycling and running. If you apply the rules of running on swimmers you gonna create a bunch of total immersed slow guys. You need to crank up the intensity to levels way beyond what you do for run training.

Also i must always laugh about these technique stuff and 24 mins 1500. I never did any technique, and without a background in swimming i went to 24 mins in 5 months. I almost always did one set. 5*200 m fast as possible with a few sprints afterwards. No TI or book needed. From then on i joined some triathlon swim training. And i went backwards straight away with all those drills.
This strikes me as crazy wrong. It took me 20yrs to realize that I didn't know how to swim. I'm slowly, finally, improving my technique, but it's incredibly slow going.

Running and cycling doesn't require much in the way of technique and I've always been pretty good at those. But swimming has been an ass-kicker. My technique has always been terrible and now that I'm finally starting to understand what I'm supposed to be doing and therefore working on it, my swimming is starting to suck less, I'm still not all that fast. I'm one of those 1:40 guys that are mentioned over and over in this thread. So I've been trying over the last few years to really emphasize technique. My sets are long, 250-500m because I can't really focus on technique in short intervals. Also, when I run hard or ride hard the duration of the interval is still pretty much the same as those 250-500m intervals.

big slow mover's post is the opposite of all of that. "Don't worry about technique". "Focus on short intervals, 3min or less in duration".

if he's right, everything I'm doing is wrong. So do we really think that swimming is somehow unique such that short intervals (100m) should be the focus of training?

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Wow.. Way to resurrect an old thread! :)

Swimming through college and on a masters team, we have a steady diet of 100s 75s,150s 200s etc. Maybe one time a week we'll swim a main set with 400s... But thats to build endurance. People get fast on the 100s and 200s and technique work.

If a 500 winds up in the set, expect a healthy dose of groaning from the team.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]
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dcohen24 wrote:
Wow.. Way to resurrect an old thread! :)

Swimming through college and on a masters team, we have a steady diet of 100s 75s,150s 200s etc. Maybe one time a week we'll swim a main set with 400s... But thats to build endurance. People get fast on the 100s and 200s and technique work.

If a 500 winds up in the set, expect a healthy dose of groaning from the team.

this..

if you can't develop good technique in a short repeat, how do you expect to do it in a long repeat? fatigue makes things worse, not better.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Re. resurrecting the thread. In a recent thread someone mentioned this TI thread so I went looking for it. Long thread so I'm only halfway thru.

Re. TI. I found it very helpful. I went decades trying to swim but not really understanding that I didn't know how to swim. The TI videos helped me understand the catch, pull, long and skinny, good body position, all that basic stuff that I'd not understood. After a year or so that I realized that I was way over-gliding and my stroke rate was <1/2 what it should be. So I shifted to SwimSmooth and that helped fix my TI problems.

So I'm grateful to TI. I think it can be really good for someone that is a complete novice.

Re. how can you work on technique if you're going slow. Hmm. Well, near as I can tell, the only time I can work on technique is when I'm going slow. Once I get something kinda fixed going slow, I work on "keeping it fixed" as I go faster and/or get tired.

I still don't really understand the obsession, in swimming, of short intervals. In college I was ok as a runner at distances ranging from a mile to a 10km. The kind of swim training, 50, 75, 100, 200's that folks talk up, remind me of training to be a miler. I don't mean running 50's, 75's, etc, I mean the time duration of the interval. The intervals just seem kinda short. A relative novice training up for a 25min running race wouldn't be using 40sec or 80sec duration repeats as their bread and butter. So why is swimming perceived to require shorter intervals?

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)

Because there are a bunch of triathletes who think the same way you do, and just do an hour straight.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Because swimming is more technique based than running or cycling. The short intervals let you maintain good technique throughout the set, and by doing a lot of them you still get the aerobic base.

Wasn't uncommon to have a main set of 4000m in college for us middle distance guys. 40x100 on an off time that gave us 10 s rest.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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I'm confused by your statement that you "can't really focus on technique in short intervals" why? That seems to be the best time to focus on technique. When you're not exhausted.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Because swimming is more technique based than running or cycling. The short intervals let you maintain good technique throughout the set, and by doing a lot of them you still get the aerobic base.

Wasn't uncommon to have a main set of 4000m in college for us middle distance guys. 40x100 on an off time that gave us 10 s rest.

Every season in high school my daughter and her varsity teammates would do 100x100s on a saturday before sectionals.

Fucking nuts!

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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I did that set on or around Dec 29th 2015. Missed it last year.

It's hard.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
I'm confused by your statement that you "can't really focus on technique in short intervals" why? That seems to be the best time to focus on technique. When you're not exhausted.
In order to fix a problem or trying something a little different I have to do it slowly and carefully. Once I start "getting it", that is to say I can "usually "do the "little different thing" w/ only 10% of my brain cells focused on it instead of 80%, I'll go a little faster and try to keep it fixed. It can easily take a couple weeks just going from the 80% focus to the 10% focus so it's a meticulous and difficult process to fix a single problem.

If I'm doing a hard 100, I lose all feeling for the drag I'm trying to keep at a minimum, and the propulsion that I'm trying to make efficient. When I go hard, I lose all grasp of the subtleties of swimming. And it's precisely those subtleties that I'm trying to grasp.

Also, because I lose my tenuous grasp of decent technique if I push hard, the resulting poor technique chews up my shoulders. So I have to be careful not to swim so hard that I push water down in the catch. At some point if I start going fast, i won't be able to be careful enough re. making sure that I don't push my hand down in the slightest as I'm setting up for the catch. Then I'll lose a couple days while my shoulder heals up.

I've seen our kids improve their technique more in one pool session that I've done in a year. I stood there in the pool jaw agape as I watched them actually doing what I was trying to show them. I thought to myself "the improvement I just saw is impossible". I don't know wtf my malfunction is, but learning decent swim technique has been incredibly difficult.

We had Hurricane Irma pass thru the region last week. As a result I'd not swam in a week. When I got back to the pool a couple days ago, I had to spend 2000m with a pull buoy just so I could remember how to swim. I've been swimming 3-5x/wk for the past year, more than at any other point in my life. Yet I lay off for a week and I've forgotten how to swim. Good technique is so tricky that not only are small lessons hard won, but w/o constant reinforcement those skills will start vanishing almost immediately.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Well, 100's don't need to be hard to the point that you lose motor control.

I make a point of trying to swim intervals with the same technique, turnover, etc that I will be racing at. That means that 100's are typically at 400-1500 race pace.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Have you considered joining a masters group? Not a triathlon group... but masters swimmers.

I was an adult onset swimmer. I, too, learned the basics of TI (which I found hugely helpful in learning the basic body position concepts). However, masters is where I took things to a different level. At some point, you need to stop sweating the small stuff and learning to swim hard and focus on technique while doing so. Masters gives you an opportunity to swim with and learn from stronger swimmers. All you need to do is show up consistently, put in the work, and you will get stronger.

I think, for people who don't naturally "get" swimming, there can be a bit of paralysis thru analysis thing happening with all the technique you are trying to master at once. It can be hard to try to, you know, keep your legs elevated, while maintaining a neutral head position, while trying not to cross over the centreline too much, while thinking about EVF, etc etc.

When you mention you need to be swimming very slowly to grasp the technique, consider this: Do you learn how to run by running in slow motion? Surely you adjust your pace to be sustainable, but, you don't go through the motions slower then you otherwise would. Do you learn a smooth pedal stroke by pedalling at 15 RPM?

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
Have you considered joining a masters group? Not a triathlon group... but masters swimmers.

I was an adult onset swimmer. I, too, learned the basics of TI (which I found hugely helpful in learning the basic body position concepts). However, masters is where I took things to a different level. At some point, you need to stop sweating the small stuff and learning to swim hard and focus on technique while doing so. Masters gives you an opportunity to swim with and learn from stronger swimmers. All you need to do is show up consistently, put in the work, and you will get stronger.
I think, for people who don't naturally "get" swimming, there can be a bit of paralysis thru analysis thing happening with all the technique you are trying to master at once. It can be hard to try to, you know, keep your legs elevated, while maintaining a neutral head position, while trying not to cross over the centerline too much, while thinking about EVF, etc etc.
When you mention you need to be swimming very slowly to grasp the technique, consider this: Do you learn how to run by running in slow motion? Surely you adjust your pace to be sustainable, but, you don't go through the motions slower then you otherwise would. Do you learn a smooth pedal stroke by pedaling at 15 RPM?

BC - That's a great way to put it and is something I've kind of intuitively thought for years but never put it into words per se. If I had to try to learn to swim thinking about all that stuff, I'd be forked without any doubt. While it may not work for everyone, I still think simply watching good swimmers and imitating their form is the best, easiest way to learn to swim reasonably well. Also, it helps to have a good swimmer watch your form every so often to see if you're "getting it". This is where Masters swimming helps so much: lots of good swimmers to watch and imitate, and lots to watch you and give pointers.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I do zero interval swimming. I just go for an hour, 3 days a week. Again, if all these folks doing intervals is the only way to do train, why am I not dead last in the swim? :)

I never eat steak with a fork. I just use a popsicle stick as my preferred utensil every time I cook up a steak. So again, if all these folks eating steak with only a fork is the "best" way to eat steak, why am I not starving? :)

Dave, you are a very good runner and do pretty well on the bike and swim as well. No denying that and your overall results speak for themselves. THINKING is your limiter, and that's a shame, because it doesn't have to be. So do you want to learn a little something about swim training and get just a little faster, or not?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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What's the rest interval on those? No matter your answer 100X100 just sounds unpleasant.
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