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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Efficency is defined as"effective use of time and effort".So you are right time is important in defining efficency.But I am assuming that doing 37 strokes for 50 meters takes substantually more effort then 29 strokes for 50 meters so Magnussen is less efficent from the standpoint of EFFORT.IF he can do 37 strokes in 50m using the SAME EFFORT as Yang uses to do 29 strokes,in my opinion he has broken at least one law of physics,lol.(Of course I mean both going full speed).

By by your logic, someone going at 40RPM on the bike is more efficient than someone going 80RPM, all other things being equal. Not necessarily true.

Efficiency in the swimming case should be defined as the energy expended to maintain a given speed. But energy expended is not the same as stroke count.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I am quoting JasonHalifax"a lower stroke count means that the swimmer has to exert a greater force per stroke then the swimmer with the higher stroke count...".Not always true,in my opinion.A lower stroke count means you are GOING FURTHER PER STROKE! So the question is,why does Yang go further per stroke?It could be because his shoulders and arms are stronger and he is able to"catch and pull" with more brute force.BUT he DOES NOT USE"catch and pull".In my opinion he uses"turn,push and glide"or called on here Total Immersion.TI is a more effective use of time and effort!BUTinterestingly enough it is not the most effective technique.As a couple of post above mentioned the girl doing the dolphin kick is amazingly fast and even less motion.Of course that is why you CANNOT USE the dolphin kick except at the ends of the pool,it is just too fast.To kind of sum up again:The idea is to get up and down the pool as fast and easily as possible,IMO.Also IMO,there are two basic techniques used by most people,"catch and pull" and"turn push and glide".Both can be fast,both can win and both have benefits and drawbacks.To me "turn push and glide" is smoother,easier,more relaxed and uses less strokes,but takes a lot more practice and precision to get really fast.Most people don't want to practice as much as it takes to get good.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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You have a lot of opinions. At this point, all I'll do is point out a couple of things.
1) while yang's stroke does have a glide to it during the first 1400 m, when he sprints at the end hat glide appears to disappear.

2) comparing underwater videos of yang vs. the video of the guy on the TI website as the "model" stroke, the mechanics of the pull are very different. Yang's entry is much farther out in front, he keeps his elbow much closer to the surface during the entire stroke,and gets his forearm to vertical very early in the pull. That indicates that he uses the front part of the stroke (i.e. the pull) to generate a lot of power. His stroke reminds me of Grant Hackett's stroke far more than Shinji's.

3) yang breathes a lot. At least every 2 strokes, and sometimes more often. That implies that he is using a heck of a lot of energy to swim the way he does.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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 I will try a new approach,lol.Instead of comparing one swimmer using one type of stroke against a another swimmer using another type of stroke I will use a comparison I mentioned before,aerobars on a bike verses drop bars.Using aerobars is somewhat like TI.TI is longer and lower in the water,using aerobars your body is longer and lower.Using drop bars even if you are actually on the drops,your chest is exposed,your arms are out and your head tends to be up. In other words using aerobars you are more aero then drop bars,hence the name.In Total Immersion your postioning is far more aero then"catch and pull".But of course not all"aero" positons are the same in swimming OR biking. Yang's stroke may not be the"model" of Total Immersion.Of course there are also many ways to do catch and pull also. Same with bike positioning.There are all sorts of aerobars out there and they can be set up in all sorts of ways to get all sorts of different results.You can be set up very"aero" on the bike and still be uncomfortable hence it may not do you any good.It is strange to me that virtually everyone uses aero bars in triathlons but very few use TI(in my opinion),yet as mentioned before water is 814 times thicker then air.I myself don't really find aerobars all that great,yet I much prefer TI.IMO we should look at ALL the options and decide what WE want to do.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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What do you consider 'fast'?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I am not sure what exactly you are referring to with that question.Speed is relative.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
I will try a new approach,lol.Instead of comparing one swimmer using one type of stroke against a another swimmer using another type of stroke I will use a comparison I mentioned before,aerobars on a bike verses drop bars.Using aerobars is somewhat like TI.TI is longer and lower in the water,using aerobars your body is longer and lower.Using drop bars even if you are actually on the drops,your chest is exposed,your arms are out and your head tends to be up. In other words using aerobars you are more aero then drop bars,hence the name.In Total Immersion your postioning is far more aero then"catch and pull".But of course not all"aero" positons are the same in swimming OR biking. Yang's stroke may not be the"model" of Total Immersion.Of course there are also many ways to do catch and pull also. Same with bike positioning.There are all sorts of aerobars out there and they can be set up in all sorts of ways to get all sorts of different results.You can be set up very"aero" on the bike and still be uncomfortable hence it may not do you any good.It is strange to me that virtually everyone uses aero bars in triathlons but very few use TI(in my opinion),yet as mentioned before water is 814 times thicker then air.I myself don't really find aerobars all that great,yet I much prefer TI.IMO we should look at ALL the options and decide what WE want to do.

What did you think of Gerry Rodrigues' posts within this thread?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
DieTryin' wrote:

Excuse my ignorance (uneducated novice), but if Sun is heavily kick dependent what is Cochrane in lane 2? To my uneducated eye Sun's kick looks pretty tame.


An elite pool swimmer is generally so efficient at kicking that they can be very fast at it without looking like they're doing much. Laure Manaudou is like the queen of having a nicely propulsive but visually non-existent kick.

Good swim technique is not just about about arm movement or torso placement but goes all the way down to the toes.

Not necessarily as there are plenty of fast freestylers who don't kick very well. I know 3 guys at my club who swam 48-49 for 100 SCY in high school and yet can't kick fast at all. Also, I've exchanged emails with James Bonney who went 46.0 for the 100 and low-15 for the 1650, and he said he was a slow kicker but made up for it with his pull.

I would say that you can't really say what any given swimmer's kick is contributing unless you have knowledge of how fast he/she kicks. Sun Yang might have a strong kick or he might not...:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I've known a good number of fish over the years who would describe themselves as 'crappy kickers', and to a person, their idea of what constitutes a crappy kick would still blow just about any adult-onset swimmer out of the water.

If you're whining about how haaard it is to make 100 yards of kick on a 1:45 sendoff but still make them without having to touch and go, then yes, you do know how to kick way better than your typical AG triathlete.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
I am not sure what exactly you are referring to with that question.Speed is relative.


Spoken like a true TI prophet. I have encountered many beautiful TI pool strokes over the years and if all one wants to do is swim reasonably well, not get faster and enjoy their pool time TI is awesome. Kudos for Terry in bringing a LOT more people into the world of water with his instruction. The problem is when his students want to get faster. They glide their way to 1:50 + 100's with 12 strokes/length scratching their head why they can't seem to get any faster. And I really feel for some of them too b/c some truly want to get faster and work hard at both technique AND the yardage it takes to progress, but they have absorbed the TI method like one of David Koresh's followers and wouldn't dare look at something else. Aesthetically it's a very nice looking stroke, but either TI is sending students out with the wrong info or the stroke method sucks balls for developing the basic skills to swim progressively faster freestyle. No one is ever going to swim fast(er) when they build fixed pauses into their stroke.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: May 16, 12 10:09
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
I've known a good number of fish over the years who would describe themselves as 'crappy kickers', and to a person, their idea of what constitutes a crappy kick would still blow just about any adult-onset swimmer out of the water.

If you're whining about how haaard it is to make 100 yards of kick on a 1:45 send-off but still make them without having to touch and go, then yes, you do know how to kick way better than your typical AG triathlete.

Agreed...:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [paul_tx] [ In reply to ]
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paul_tx wrote:
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I think the controversial part comes from his stance that you really should never "HTFU" in the pool according to his philosophy. (The title of the thread is from someone asking whether he needs to HTFU in his swim training.)


People at BT should be forbidden to use the term "HTFU".


I'm on BT, would to apply that to me? :)
There are some very fast and solid athletes and coaches who post over there.


I say that mainly because as a group they are so thin skinned that they'll go crying to administrators if you write something
they don't want to hear. That's certainly not HTFU.

Being fat and slow is one thing, but being a crybaby is another.

This hasn't really changed now has it?


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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To bring up another cycling analogy, what's the best way to get up a hill? Is the goal to take the lowest number of pedal strokes because that is absolutely the best way of getting up that hill always, or is the best way of doing it to play around with shifting until you're able to pedal with the least amount of effort while generating the best propulsion?

Just like there are spinners and mashers in cycling, I tend to see efficient and FAST swimming as a spectrum of sorts with the Thorpe/Sun/Hackett on one end and the Evans/Bennett/Manaudou on the other extreme. And all of those people spent a couple million meters really dialing in whether they were spinners or mashers.

If you're just starting out and have to look to the elites for someone to model from, look to the middle of that spectrum with I dunno, maybe Natalie Coughlin as a starting point if you can find footage of her going a 200 or more. And then as you get more into the sport, adjust from that point as needed.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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In my opinion, Terry is mostly correct when it comes to triathletes. Most triathletes start really learning how to swim late in life. Swimming is different from other sports in that the feel for the water is everything, and therefore technique becomes paramount. As a swimmer who did not grow up swimming competitively (or at all), there needs to be a great amount of time spent on technique. So, for this crowd, working on sprints or "going fast" in the water to prepare for a triathlon doesn't make much sense.

However, I believe Terry is ignoring the intermediate-advanced triathlete crowd. This is the group that have put in the countless hours in the pool and open water, doing drills and improving their stroke to the point where they have the "perfect" stroke for themselves (no such thing as perfect, but you can get to a certain personal level and it's YOUR perfect stroke). For these folks, who are of course far fewer in number than the beginners, it IS important to start working on speed, sprints, HIT, and not be so concerned with LSD, which can just turn into "junk yards" or meters at a certain point.

Check out the CrossFit endurance site for more tips on how to train for the swim if you are at this level. Although the workouts are pretty simple, they are effective and efficient as opposed to wasteful, 4,000 yard workouts which are wasting your time that could be spent on the bike or....reading the ST forums. :)

"Laugh At the Water and Make The Swim Your Friend"
http://triswimcoach.com
http://triathlonsprinttraining.net
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I feel like we have gone full circle on this thread.Many people on here were saying TI is too slow.I explained what I thought TI actually was and stated that it can be fast if learned correctly and practiced a lot.Then someone put the video of Magnassen on showing how fast"catch and pull" was.Then someone put the video of Yang was showing how fast Total Immersion was.I was not aware of either video.The thing I noticed was the large difference in strokes per length.After going back and forth on that for a while tigerpaws says,TI is TOO SLOW!So back to where we started,lol.GREAT FEEDBACK,lets hear more!
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [triswimcoach] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats...TI + Crossfit.

Would you like to throw in a little something about "PCranks" as well?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [triswimcoach] [ In reply to ]
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triswimcoach wrote:
In my opinion, Terry is mostly correct when it comes to triathletes. Most triathletes start really learning how to swim late in life. Swimming is different from other sports in that the feel for the water is everything, and therefore technique becomes paramount. As a swimmer who did not grow up swimming competitively (or at all), there needs to be a great amount of time spent on technique. So, for this crowd, working on sprints or "going fast" in the water to prepare for a triathlon doesn't make much sense.


However, I believe Terry is ignoring the intermediate-advanced triathlete crowd. This is the group that have put in the countless hours in the pool and open water, doing drills and improving their stroke to the point where they have the "perfect" stroke for themselves (no such thing as perfect, but you can get to a certain personal level and it's YOUR perfect stroke). For these folks, who are of course far fewer in number than the beginners, it IS important to start working on speed, sprints, HIT, and not be so concerned with LSD, which can just turn into "junk yards" or meters at a certain point.

Check out the CrossFit endurance site for more tips on how to train for the swim if you are at this level. Although the workouts are pretty simple, they are effective and efficient as opposed to wasteful, 4,000 yard workouts which are wasting your time that could be spent on the bike or....reading the ST forums. :)


If only Michael Phelps had known this...it could have helped him considerably.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure TI works for some people. It doesn't work for me. It did give me a starting point however.
Watch people swim. There is no one size fits all. Whether it is my lack of flexibility etc etc I find a higher stroke count and shorter choppier stroke to be faster and less fatiguing for me than the TI model. This style, by pure luck, also works better in open water that isnt perfectly calm.

I dont think there needs to be a debate. If TI works for you then great use it. If it doen't then don't use it, something else will work for you. No right or wrong.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I love that quote,"fish(are)....'crappy kickers' ".They also don't have any arms! And yet when discussing swimming many people spend a large part of time discussing arms and legs,lol.Fish swim by snapping every muscle in their body in one smooth continous motion.That is EXACTLY the way Total Immersion works! You throw your arm forward,snap every muscle in your body,glide for a count then throw your other arm forward snap your muscles again(repeat as necessary,lol).The problem is it takes PERFECT TIMING to work if you really want to go fast(most do not acheive that timing).The dolphin kick works a lot like this too you just don't have to switch arms,that is why it is so fast.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Up to this point I wasn't sure if hotman637 was a troll or just confused. Now, not so much...
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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jbank wrote:
Up to this point I wasn't sure if hotman637 was a troll or just confused. Now, not so much...

so which is it...troll or confused?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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FLA Jill wrote:
I've known a good number of fish over the years who would describe themselves as 'crappy kickers', and to a person, their idea of what constitutes a crappy kick would still blow just about any adult-onset swimmer out of the water.

If you're whining about how haaard it is to make 100 yards of kick on a 1:45 sendoff but still make them without having to touch and go, then yes, you do know how to kick way better than your typical AG triathlete.

The average age group triathlete cannot average 1:45 per 100m with a wetsuit, fully tapered during a race....just to put this in perspective. For those that don't believe it, go to any race result on sportats and take the swim spilts of the median swimmer which we'd describe as the average age group triathlete....
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
FLA Jill wrote:
DieTryin' wrote:

Excuse my ignorance (uneducated novice), but if Sun is heavily kick dependent what is Cochrane in lane 2? To my uneducated eye Sun's kick looks pretty tame.


An elite pool swimmer is generally so efficient at kicking that they can be very fast at it without looking like they're doing much. Laure Manaudou is like the queen of having a nicely propulsive but visually non-existent kick.

Good swim technique is not just about about arm movement or torso placement but goes all the way down to the toes.


Not necessarily as there are plenty of fast freestylers who don't kick very well. I know 3 guys at my club who swam 48-49 for 100 SCY in high school and yet can't kick fast at all. Also, I've exchanged emails with James Bonney who went 46.0 for the 100 and low-15 for the 1650, and he said he was a slow kicker but made up for it with his pull.

I would say that you can't really say what any given swimmer's kick is contributing unless you have knowledge of how fast he/she kicks. Sun Yang might have a strong kick or he might not...:)


I was the fastest freestyler on most of my swim teams, and also the slowest kicker. I'd lead the fastest lane for freestyle laps, then move down several lanes and go last for kick drills. Just the way some of us swim. Maybe my kick is only strong when coupled with the movement of the full stroke - who knows. I've been watching those Yang videos and find his efficiency amazing. I especially like how you can see that his hand glide sheds all the bubbles before he begins his actual catch. His competitors are dragging lots of air right into their catches.


I've been timing myself on 200s, swimming at about a 1 hour Ironman pace effort, comparing swimming Yang-style vs. regular. They are exactly the same speed for me, but the Yang-style is much smoother and less agitating. I'm definitely going to do it some more and see how it pans out


Terry is just a dude. Test out different styles, evolve over time, keep trying, enjoy the pool. :)

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Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I will try a new approach too. Who are you and why are you so keen on promoting TI?

You mentioned that Yang swims using a TI technique, although he isn't like the model swimmer, so maybe he isn't swimming with a TI technique?? Who knows, but you appear to be confused. But if I go on the TI website, I cannot find an accurate description of what TI actually is. Is it a philosophy, is it a series of drills, is it an actual style, is it a training methodology?

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [M~] [ In reply to ]
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M~ wrote:
triswimcoach wrote:
In my opinion, Terry is mostly correct when it comes to triathletes. Most triathletes start really learning how to swim late in life. Swimming is different from other sports in that the feel for the water is everything, and therefore technique becomes paramount. As a swimmer who did not grow up swimming competitively (or at all), there needs to be a great amount of time spent on technique. So, for this crowd, working on sprints or "going fast" in the water to prepare for a triathlon doesn't make much sense.


However, I believe Terry is ignoring the intermediate-advanced triathlete crowd. This is the group that have put in the countless hours in the pool and open water, doing drills and improving their stroke to the point where they have the "perfect" stroke for themselves (no such thing as perfect, but you can get to a certain personal level and it's YOUR perfect stroke). For these folks, who are of course far fewer in number than the beginners, it IS important to start working on speed, sprints, HIT, and not be so concerned with LSD, which can just turn into "junk yards" or meters at a certain point.

Check out the CrossFit endurance site for more tips on how to train for the swim if you are at this level. Although the workouts are pretty simple, they are effective and efficient as opposed to wasteful, 4,000 yard workouts which are wasting your time that could be spent on the bike or....reading the ST forums. :)


If only Michael Phelps had known this...it could have helped him considerably.

Phelps is doing a lot more than 4,000 yard workouts.
However, he's not a triathlete, nor is he a beginner swimmer!

TI caters to the beginner. Can it make you faster if you are already past the beginner stage? Typically, no, but it can help fix flaws in your stroke that may be slowing you down.

There is a huge difference between someone who is doing say a 100 or 200 meter race (a sprint), and someone who is doing a 1 mile swim followed by a 30k bike and a 10k run. Here's an article I wrote a while back on this topic: http://ezinearticles.com/...wimming&id=44677

Cheers,
Kevin

"Laugh At the Water and Make The Swim Your Friend"
http://triswimcoach.com
http://triathlonsprinttraining.net
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