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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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so how fast are you doing turnspearglide? if you don't want to post video, at least post your times.

It's amazing how you think the least important things in the stroke are the most important. truly amazing.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Don't know my times,don't have a video camera.Undoubtedly you are WAY faster then me! The title of this thread is"TI in a fascinating debate",NOT video comparison of swimmers.If you are obsessed with times and videos,put them on here.To me videos do not show TI very well(that is one reason there is so much debate about TI,IMO. If you want to understand Total Immersion,you have to DO it,not watch it,just like sex,lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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I have posted times. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#3904680. I'm not that fast either, but thats mostly due to lack of fitness and talent.

I'm supposed to be listening to you aboutturnspearglide, but you have no idea if it is faster or slower than a freestyle which emphhasises the pull. Youve said yourself that video is hard to interpret, but youve gone ahead and done just that while ignoring all feedback from anyone who knows anything about swimming.

But please, carry on. You amuse me.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Don't know my times,don't have a video camera.Undoubtedly you are WAY faster then me! The title of this thread is"TI in a fascinating debate",NOT video comparison of swimmers.If you are obsessed with times and videos,put them on here.To me videos do not show TI very well(that is one reason there is so much debate about TI,IMO. If you want to understand Total Immersion,you have to DO it,not watch it,just like sex,lol.

I'm afraid you don't inherit Brett Sutton's knowledge and authority simply by adopting his approach to punctuation.

Troll or hard of thinking, surely.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Don't know my times,don't have a video camera.Undoubtedly you are WAY faster then me! The title of this thread is"TI in a fascinating debate",NOT video comparison of swimmers.If you are obsessed with times and videos,put them on here.To me videos do not show TI very well(that is one reason there is so much debate about TI,IMO. If you want to understand Total Immersion,you have to DO it,not watch it,just like sex,lol.

"I ran a marathon in 5 hours ten minutes,very slow"

Of course you won't post any real swim times, because they are so bad, the life guards probably throw the life saver ring at you sometimes. Next you will start telling us to walk/shuffle a marathon like you did as it's MUCH EASIER everyone SHOULD TRY IT! Your TI is the swimming equivalent of your 5hr+ marathon. No thanks. I'm not looking for the easiest way to do something very slowly.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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Regardless of what you think about the TI freestyle technique, I'm pretty sure the balance drills wouldn't do any swimmer any harm and could do a lot of good.
I've found Terry's advice to train with a bunched fist (trying to avoid the term'fisting' for obvious reasons) helpful too.
Terry is fairly vehement about one thing, SR x SL = Velocity. That really is the bottom line, IMVHO. Total Immersion is all about increasin stroke length. The problem is that many, many TI swimmers -myself included - increase SL at the expense of SR, hence the ridicule by faster and fitter swimmers.

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]
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Regardless of what you think about the TI freestyle technique, I'm pretty sure the balance drills wouldn't do any swimmer any harm and could do a lot of good.

I admit, I only know a little about TI, what I've been able to find on youtube and google. I don't think I would spend my money on a TI camp, but I think that for certain swimmers (particularly at the entry level who have zero feel for the water) then TI isn't bad. Once you get above that, i.e. someone who has a club, HS or college swimming background, I'm not so sure about the benefits of doing the TI drills. Some of them (and I don't know what they are called, they have names that I am not familiar with and seem to be unique to the TI method) seem to encourage overrotation, and I think that drills designed more around what an individual swimmer does are more important. Incidentally, I think that for an advanced level swimmer, freestyle drills aren't all that important. They still have their place, but they aren't nearly as important as drills for other strokes, especially breaststroke and fly.

Terry is fairly vehement about one thing, SR x SL = Velocity.

That is a true statement, but he also APPEARS to me to be all about swimming effortlessly as well. If you want to swim fast, then the effort has to be there. if you want to maintain a certain stroke length and increase the stroke rate, then you have to put more muscle into it.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Many thanks for your reply Jason.
It´s always nice to be able to discuss TI, my experiences and misgivings about the ´method´, without getting into an argument.
I never did a TI camp, just bought the book for a few euros on Amazon, really enjoyed working through it and try to apply it to racing and training.
I would say this, at the last sprint triathlon I spectated at (Mrs Barchetta was competing) I would say 95% of the people doing freestyle would have benefitted from TI*, as it resembled that Monty Python sketch about ´100 metres for non swimmers´

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmyz_f8Sx14

Starts 50 seconds in.....

*or any other form of decent swim coaching

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Jason,As I say BOTH techniques can be fast and both can be slow.Cubfan24 posted a GREAT link(feelforthewater.com) above that explains EXACTLY what I was trying to explain.What I was calling"catch and pull" they called the"swinger"technique.Check it out.Anyhow what I mean by the video is hard to interpret is I watch the Sun Yang video and I see turnspearglide(or TI).Terry Lauphlin says Yang is"textbook" Total Immersion.Yet just about everyone on here says Yang isn't doing TI!! So the FOUNDER of TI is WRONG about a video and a bunch of people,many who have never even done TI are RIGHT?!THAT is what I mean by video is hard to interpret! Now MAYBE Terry is wrong about Yang doing TI(or maybe many on here are wrong,lol),BUT we will not solve that issue by watching more video!! The ONLY way to really solve it is for people to get in the water and PRACTICE Total Immersion until they understand it(they don't have to be real good,lol). And do the"swinger"technique,if they want a comparison. THEN they can decide which they want to do(of course you can do a mix)and they can make a better judgement as whether Yang or anybody else for that matter is doing TI.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Terry is saying that because he believes in his method, a "true believer" so to speak, and wants to sell books and DVDs. The most common criticism of TI is that it doesn't teach speed, and I have yet to find a video of anyone swimming fast in a TI video (and I've been looking), so he's latched onto a fast swimmer who has a really long DPS and relatively low turnover and says "look, TI!!" when in fact it isn't.

TI is what it is. A fairly good method for getting people with no swimming background into the water and they can stop thrashing. It isn't about speed.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Your post EXACTLY proves what I just said.Terry sees Yang and says,"Total Immersion".You and others sees Yang and says"Its fast but it's something other then Total Immersion". What I am saying is videos and theorising CANNOT solve that conundrum.The ONLY solution to that situation is get in the water and swim TI UNTIL you"get"it. THEN get back on here and tell us your conclusions.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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TurnSpearGlide is the swimming technique of ManBearPig.

J
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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Wow,you are the first to mention the"shuffle"method I talked a bit about.When I ran the 5 hour marathon a few years ago it was before the"shuffle" method so I was not really happy with the"usual"method so I was always looking at different ideas to see what might work.The"shuffle"method is NOT easier then the usual method and does not make as big a difference,good or bad,as Total Immersion in swimming.The weight distribution is different and it takes a while to get used to different muscle usage.I like it but many may not,look at video of Cliff Young and see how he does it.Unlike Total Immersion it is easy to see the difference on video,lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously you are the only one who "gets" it, so I would like for you to post your times so I can see if it is work making the time investment to change my stroke to something that I have never seen work. I've already posted mine. Come on, you can do it.

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have any"times",don't have any video.I think you HAVE seen it work(Yang's race)but you don't.If a video won't convince you,some strangers"times"will not convince you either.If the times are fast you will say"he is not doing TI"if they are slow you will say"TI is slow".IF I timed myself I would be"slow"in the swim,bike AND run,that is why I don't time myself,lol.If you don't get in the pool and practice turnspearglide,you will not"get"it,no matter what ANYBODIES,times,videos,books,posts,theories,ideas,concepts,etc.etc.etc,say!Turnspearglide is NOT a theory it is an action.It is sort of like saying I will not spend the money for a lotto ticket unless so-and-so wins the lotto to prove it is possible to win the lotto. It is only impossible to win the lotto if you don't buy a ticket,lol.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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If you don't time yourself, how would you know that turnspearglide is better than a normal stroke?

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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Now THAT is a good question!The short answer is speed is NOT the only criteria for"better".Turnspearglide is easier(almost everyone says that even you),more relaxing,more fun,lower heart rate,uses less strokes,more efficient(in my opinion,many disagree).In my opinion about the ONLY way the"swinger" technique might be"better"is it is faster.Given that if I can do turnspearglide to anywhere NEAR as fast as the"swinger"style(and I WAS slow at that style too,lol) I would be an ABSOLUTE FOOL not to do turnspearglide!It is just so easy and relaxing that when you get to the bike you have more energy to catch up any time lost to the"swingers",lol.It is really very similiar to aerobars verses drops.Lance Armstrong could use drop bars and probably go JUST as FAST as most pros on aerobars.But he would be using far more energy,spinning at a higher RPM,not nearly as relaxed and have a higher heart rate.So even if he won the bike he would be tired and tense for the run.Of course that is why Lance and virtually everyone else uses aerobars.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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turnspearglide? awesome! You all are being taken for a ride.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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I thought this thread had already jumped the shark a while back, but he's just added Lance to the argument. There must be some sort of Godwin's Law equivalent for doing that. Let's turn this thread into a debate about how big a winning margin Lance will have in Kona in he swims with TI and trains on power cranks.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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Someone should tell Lance that he's spinning a higher rpm on the road bike than the TT bike because he has aerobars on the TT bike. For reals. Hotman said so.

edit. I know I should l this thread die, but I can't. I feel compelled to post to see what "wisdom" hotman has to say.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 27, 12 5:49
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Oh HELLS no this thread cannot die, it's nearing hall of fame material. I missed out on yesterday's additions this is awesomeness.

Hotman. Can you start one about leg shaving?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [hotman637] [ In reply to ]
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hotman637 wrote:
Now THAT is a good question!The short answer is speed is NOT the only criteria for"better".Turnspearglide is easier(almost everyone says that even you),more relaxing,more fun,lower heart rate,uses less strokes,more efficient(in my opinion,many disagree).In my opinion about the ONLY way the"swinger" technique might be"better"is it is faster.Given that if I can do turnspearglide to anywhere NEAR as fast as the"swinger"style(and I WAS slow at that style too,lol) I would be an ABSOLUTE FOOL not to do turnspearglide!It is just so easy and relaxing that when you get to the bike you have more energy to catch up any time lost to the"swingers",lol.It is really very similiar to aerobars verses drops.Lance Armstrong could use drop bars and probably go JUST as FAST as most pros on aerobars.But he would be using far more energy,spinning at a higher RPM,not nearly as relaxed and have a higher heart rate.So even if he won the bike he would be tired and tense for the run.Of course that is why Lance and virtually everyone else uses aerobars.

Wow...just amazing...your powers of reasoning are incredible and your intellect dizzying...So TI is aerobars again? Aerobars are about going faster, not "easier(almost everyone says that even you),more relaxing,more fun,lower heart rate,uses less strokes,more efficient(in my opinion,many disagree)". Yes faster. They are not for saving energy, or making things easy. You ride at a certain output and at that output aerobars on a TT bike are faster over certain terrain. Again, your comparison to aerobars is ridiculous and one of the reasons I have stated that you lack any logical reasoning capabilities whatsoever. But you chose to believe that we perceive your lack of reasoning to be because of your cult like love for TI. Logic is not about your chosen side, but about how you argue it and the reasoning you use. Yours is full of fallacies and bat shit crazy. The criteria for better is faster... So only an ABSOLUTE FOOL will choose speed (whether a little or a lot) over "easier, more relaxing, more fun, etc"?? I guess I am an ABSOLUTE FOOL...well at least to you. Which doesn't mean anything inside your realm of padded walls... By the way, you don't happen to be related to Speedracer1 do you??
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [mattbk] [ In reply to ]
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No idea who Speedracer1 is.I went for a bike ride using aerobars over a route that I had mostly used drop bars prevously.By my watch I might have been a little faster(don't look at times much as I say).What I REALLY NOTICED was it was way easier,more relaxed,more fun,lower heart rate,lower RPM,used a higher gear,JUST LIKE turnspearglide!Try them both and see if it works for you.
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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This thread will never ever shine a candle on the Hottie Thread, nor the Starbucks thread, nor How to Wipe your ass.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Terry Laughlin from Total Immersion in a fascinating debate on BT [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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Though I do think we're into How Do I Make Flat Coke? territory.
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