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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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As a kid during the summer we regularly swam 10K/day (doubles) (50-60K/week) and our coaches were CONSTANTLY drilling us on technique, dropped elbows, counting flags, tight turns, breathing patterns, etc.//

You have to separate what you did as a swimmer and what most do as masters tri swimmers. Sure if you are doing 60k a week, you can do a lot of drill type stuff. But what if you only get to do 14k a week? What are you going to chop out? I think what these guys are saying is that if you have limited time and mileage to do, then you have to do it mostly all hard. And if you have form issues, put on the toys that mostly correct those flaws, and keep hammering. It has always seemed funny to me that many good swimmers are so anti toys. I know where it comes from though, toys make most people faster, and there is a built in hatred for those folks that use the toys. Swimmers had the same feelings when wetsuits were allowed too. Cyclists had the same feeling when the 1st aero bars were shoved down their throats. People hate change, especially when it makes others faster than you. Sutton may not be very literate or have a good bedside manor, but he is right for the most part. If you are a tri swimmer that is in the hour+/- range and have only a few hours a week to swim, put on the gear and hammer out big sets. that will be your biggest bang for the buck for tri/wetsuit swimming. If you form is really good, then just do the hammer sets without the toys, same result.

I was/am one of those that pull a lot in workout, along with Dave Scott and dozens of other top swimmer triathletes i have swam with over the years. Not only does it not hamper me, it allowed me to swim with the lead group every year in hawaii, a group that would swim circles around me in just plain pool swimming. Even now in my advanced age, doing big pull sets helps me hang with many lead groups still. Dave was also never a super fast pool swimmer, but never got dropped in tri swims with guys faster than he was. I believe it is a power issue for some, and others it just plain corrects their flaws and enables them to workout like they are going to swim in the race.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I just went from a totally terrible swimmer (like 2:20/100) to mildly terrible (1:45 Tpace for 2000 now) over 2 years. Read everything on the forums here and BT, trained very hard for a newb (so hard that my shoulder strains were the limiting factor) and really focused hard on technique. Spent the entire first 6 months doing nothing but technique.

This is always my issue with the whole swimming thing. You can bust your ass for an entire year (or even two) to get an improvement of :30/100meters, so a time savings of 7.5 minutes in an Oly distance race or even up to 20 minutes in an Ironman if you can keep your new technique smooth for an entire 4000 meters. If you can improve your cycling by 2 mph and your run by :30/mile then you gain over 40 minutes in an Ironman. Obviously if you combine all three you're laughing - but I think that time invested on the bike and the run is much better spent when you think about spending 6-8 hours a week in a pool as opposed to biking and running during that time. Just my .02.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [David B] [ In reply to ]
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Except for a lot (especially us older guys) we get the fitness beneits in the pool but not the injuries of those extra hrs running biking. Fitness gained in the pool I believe is aften overlooked. Being in my 50's I can get some pretty good threshold work down in the pool, which I simply cannot do as much on the bike and run do to recovery
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [David B] [ In reply to ]
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This is very much dependent on who you are speaking to....

gaining 2mph on the bike from 15-17 is not hard....going from 23-25 is monumental....same for the run...going from 9:00 to 8:30 is not that tough....going from 6:30 to 6:00 is incredibly hard. So what if your biking at 23 and running at 6:30 and swimming at 1:45/100yards....I would say your best bet for time is gaining swim fitness.

Plus, once you gain that awareness and fitness in the pool, it comes back quickly and sticks with you longer.


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [David B] [ In reply to ]
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If you can improve your cycling by 2 mph and your run by :30/mile then you gain over 40 minutes in an Ironman//

This is always a strawman. Go get your 2mph and ;30 seconds, then do your swim. The order is not that important, and once you have gotten the low hanging fruit, your argument is done. And that does not even include the time swimming faster makes your bike and run also faster.
Last edited by: monty: Dec 28, 11 16:33
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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it is simple you can't swim 30km with bad technique... thats it. As you work on your fitness you ll get much better feel for water
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Plus, once you gain that awareness and fitness in the pool, it comes back quickly and sticks with you longer.

That's why a large investment in time, and volume in any and all three sports, often through individual focus blocks is never a bad thing. If done right and well, it's not something that just disappears, ounce you cut back - it stays with you a long time. This is particularly so with swimming and cycling - less so with running.

This is why many athletes should worry less about the details and just get out there and do it.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [BeachboyWI] [ In reply to ]
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TO:....If I am doing my math correctly (1 mile = 1650) that is close to a 23 minute drop
Yeah your math is incorrect,,,you saved more time, a mile is 1760yrds......A pool mile (1650) is not a mile
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I think what these guys are saying is that if you have limited time and mileage to do, then you have to do it mostly all hard.


A wise man once said (and probably continues to say):

You've gotta swim fast to swim fast.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"Technique goes a long way in swimming, but it's nothing without fitness. Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true."


WOW that is heavy,makes me want to go to my study and read some Kiekegaard.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [-Tex] [ In reply to ]
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-Tex wrote:
Swimming more is not sexy. Paying $100 for a 1 hour session or whatever is not sexy. Swimming alone sucks. You may not save 10 minutes on an Ironman swim, but I bet you'll save it on the whole race. Unfortunately, you can't quantify how much 'energy' you saved by swimming the same time going 'easier' than you did a year earlier.

I'm amazed at how often part in bold gets overlooked. Swimming makes you a better (triathlon) cyclist, just as cycling makes you a better (triathlon) runner. It's not only about the time you save in the water. It's about starting the bike fresh as well.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [monty] [ In reply to ]
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...and you (or the poster you were replying to) also need to separate out what you did as a kid and what you do when you are 20, 30, 40 something and learning to swim for the first time. Technique work for kids in swim club is great, both because they are swimming so much and because they are physical sponges.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Plus, once you gain that awareness and fitness in the pool, it comes back quickly and sticks with you longer.

Word.

I could go from zero swim fitness (today) to just under 1:06 IM swim time in about 8 weeks on 7000m per week. 1:06 isn't really fast, but it is as fast as I ever care to be. The reason is that's my plateau. I'll never swim faster than that without a big increase in weekly swim time (3 hours) for many, many weeks that might net me a minute or so. I could spend that time running for much bigger gains. I've had really good swim coaching (Hat Tip: Desert Dude) so it all comes back naturally as you suggest. There are just certain things I need to remember to do as I was taught.

Those 'things' I call executing proper form......maybe it's called technique but I swim sets until my form falls apart and then I start over. When my form is good I'm at 1:35 @100 consistently.

Paulo makes great sense with sage advice. I also think triathlon swimmers need to be aware of what their best potential is and instead of chasing 20K per week for no reason/purpose, have a coach who says "this is your best potential time for 1500/1.2/2.4 on x amount of yards per week.......and doubling those yards is a false economy....time better spent running or biking."

I also swim exclusively with a pull buoy


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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.....what happens when it is no wetsuit swim? swimming with pullboy is so much easier
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [R2] [ In reply to ]
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In fresh water I would probably sink in anything longer than 1.2mi. I find salt water to have buoyancy that mimics a pull buoy so no issues there sans wetsuit.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm amazed at how often part in bold gets overlooked. Swimming makes you a better (triathlon) cyclist, just as cycling makes you a better (triathlon) runner. It's not only about the time you save in the water. It's about starting the bike fresh as well.

People love to put stuff in silos of various kinds, but don't realize it's all interconnected!

Having stood at the swim exit of many Ironman races and watched thousands of triathletes over the years, I can honestly say that for more than a few triathletes the IM swim has absolutely hammered them. You can tell by the drawn look on the face, lack of spring in the step and the general body language as they stagger out of the water. Not a great way to start a very long day! They are already behind the eight-ball!





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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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those people should learn to practice a long swim/long bike brick rather than have the race itself teach the lesson


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Mojozenmaster wrote:
those people should learn to practice a long swim/long bike brick rather than have the race itself teach the lesson

If people had the logical foresight to do such a workout, they would clearly have the same logical capability to understand the basic message of this thread. The reason there are so many people who don't get what is in the is thread is the exact same reason that people rarely - if ever - even consider practicing a swim->bike brick.

The swim->bike brick is probably THE most under-appreciated workout in the sport.


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Mojozenmaster wrote:
those people should learn to practice a long swim/long bike brick rather than have the race itself teach the lesson


The swim->bike brick is probably THE most under-appreciated workout in the sport.

It's also probably the most administratively difficult workout from a logistics standpoint. Probably why it's rarely utilized.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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GMAN19030 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Mojozenmaster wrote:
those people should learn to practice a long swim/long bike brick rather than have the race itself teach the lesson


The swim->bike brick is probably THE most under-appreciated workout in the sport.

It's also probably the most administratively difficult workout from a logistics standpoint. Probably why it's rarely utilized.

A really fast transition version? Yes. Though if you ask if you can bring a trainer on deck, it's amazing how many places will say yes, simply because they are so dumbfounded they can't think of a reason to say no.

BUT, to effectively do a swim->bike workout with a transition on the order of 5-ish minutes, which is a LOT faster than most people's IM transitions, is not really all that difficult. Finish your set, no cool down, get out, dry off, no shower, promptly change, grab your bike out of the back of your car, ride.


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Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Or just do it outside...

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Depending on where you live/swim....ride bike to pool....swim, get out of the water (towel off if cold), go unlock bike, ride home/to work. Logistically, it is a very easy workout to pull off if you have a small backpack for the pool stuff.

I'm actually amazed by how few people chose to ride to swimming vs driving.

If your ride is under 20K, it's a great way to log some extra miles, with minimal additional time penalty and good way to practice the specificity for racing.

Same thing can be done for a weekend long ride...ride to pool/open water, swim, get on the bike and do the long ride. It's not really that difficult logistically if you are not too worried about locking up your high end tri bike....maybe I am lucky, but in 27 years of doing this, I've never had my bike or any component ripped off (I've done this in my own city and in countless foreign cities on three continents)....anyway, bikes are replaceable....my time is not. I only get so many ticks on earth and would rather spend it on a bike than in a car :-). Give it a whirl!
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Depending on where you live/swim....ride bike to pool....swim, get out of the water (towel off if cold), go unlock bike, ride home/to work. Logistically, it is a very easy workout to pull off if you have a small backpack for the pool stuff.

I'm actually amazed by how few people chose to ride to swimming vs driving.

If your ride is under 20K, it's a great way to log some extra miles, with minimal additional time penalty and good way to practice the specificity for racing.

Same thing can be done for a weekend long ride...ride to pool/open water, swim, get on the bike and do the long ride. It's not really that difficult logistically if you are not too worried about locking up your high end tri bike....maybe I am lucky, but in 27 years of doing this, I've never had my bike or any component ripped off (I've done this in my own city and in countless foreign cities on three continents)....anyway, bikes are replaceable....my time is not. I only get so many ticks on earth and would rather spend it on a bike than in a car :-). Give it a whirl!

Agree with you but here are my limiting factors for not riding to my swim:

1) I swim early. Before the buttcrack of dawn. Which means riding in the dark. In the cold. Which I'd gladly do for a 'real' bike workout, but for as only a warmup prelude to a swim, totally sux.

2) You have deal with the logistics of carrying your bike and swim gear with you on the workouts. Not a dealbreaker, but gets annoying.

3) I swim right before work and shower there before driving over to work in the nick of time. Can't do that on a bike - would get too sweaty riding from the pool to work.

4) Bike is too slow to get to noontime swim (40 min swim in a 60 minute lunch break, including travel and prep time.)

For those like me who have to cram the swimming in wherever possible, even the few minutes saved on a car is pretty important. I found that at one of my work locations, it was clearly worth it to drive my car an incredibly pathetic 0.4 miles to the pool (yes, you can SEE the pool from my work window it's so close) as the 4 measly minutes I saved each way vs to the walking (can't just change at work and jog over - not professional for what I do) was crucial in cramming that workout into the 60 minute allotted lunch break.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Ironically, no one seems to miss this connection with running. Very few people waste as much time doing running drills as they do with swimming drills. Nobody - well, very few people - think that drills are the key to a ~3hr Ironman marathon (also 50% slower than elite level). But plenty of people seem to think they can drill their way to a ~1hr IM swim...


Two different activities. Weightlifting, distance running, swimming, speed skating, cycling, sprinting......all will require different balances of technique training vs fitness training.

Its always about balance and if you sit too far to one end of the spectrum you will need to do less of one and more of the other and it will vary based on your goals and your ability.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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while a good idea, logistically it can be a bit of challenge, an alternative is to do a race
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