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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
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Rich Strauss wrote:
... does the math on the time investment required to go from 1:15 to 1:10

--

All that sells very well and sounds right in theory. But when the gun goes off, your 1:15 swimmer does not loose 5 minutes, but 5 minutes on the swim, 10 on the bike and 20 on the run (due to a lack of swim fitness).

Send a seasoned triathlete, a 9hr guy, on an hour of cross country skating or rowing with 3mmol and see the cycling and run performance. It goes way down, because the athlete cannot recover from the activity he is not fit for.

You can do the test with a few clients (cycling trained but not skating or rowing trained but with enough technical proficiency to acutally be able to work at threshould in skating or rowing):

-) Bike an hour at TH (HR 165, Watts 280) - run 1/2 an hour at 150 hr
-) Skate or row an Hour at TH (HR 175 as a full body sport gives a higher heart rate) - run 1/2 an hour at 150 hr

If the second run is much slower (which it is for me), or feels much harder (which it does for me), the whole theory of "economics of swimming" goes the way of all economic model ...
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [adal] [ In reply to ]
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Get as fit as you can & swim as fast as you can.

Without developing your technique, it's like riding one of these:



With technique, it's like riding one of these:


No doubt the very best cyclists could still ride the dragster pretty fast - if they put the chain on...
I wouldn't want to do an Ironman on one though.

I would much rather spend a bit of time becoming a good swimmer, rather than spend countless hours in the pool getting really fit but sucking as a swimmer.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
I would much rather spend a bit of time becoming a good swimmer, rather than spend countless hours in the pool getting really fit but sucking as a swimmer.

Ever happened to anyone? Was it ever tested, that it is even possible, to train hard for 10.000 hours and stay technically poor? Most of this technique bla-bla comes from former swimmers, that developed efficient technique by doing hard work in the pool for years and now need to turn their profficiency into cash by "coaching" age groupers, that don't want to work at all.

Or has it happened the other way round, are there any 50 minute swimmers, who did TI drills and did not work intervalls day after day?
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
Get as fit as you can & swim as fast as you can.

Without developing your technique, it's like riding one of these:



With technique, it's like riding one of these:


No doubt the very best cyclists could still ride the dragster pretty fast - if they put the chain on...
I wouldn't want to do an Ironman on one though.

I would much rather spend a bit of time becoming a good swimmer, rather than spend countless hours in the pool getting really fit but sucking as a swimmer.

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I bet there are a hell of a lot of really fit people that could ride that cruiser bike faster than those untfit ones on the pinarello who cruise around looking pretty on the bike while doing no actual training..

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [adal] [ In reply to ]
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adal wrote:
NAB777 wrote:
I would much rather spend a bit of time becoming a good swimmer, rather than spend countless hours in the pool getting really fit but sucking as a swimmer.


Ever happened to anyone? Was it ever tested, that it is even possible, to train hard for 10.000 hours and stay technically poor? Most of this technique bla-bla comes from former swimmers, that developed efficient technique by doing hard work in the pool for years and now need to turn their profficiency into cash by "coaching" age groupers, that don't want to work at all.

Or has it happened the other way round, are there any 50 minute swimmers, who did TI drills and did not work intervalls day after day?

This.

You have to be intentionally swimming with poor form or willfully not aiming to swim faster than your current pace to not improve significantly after doing a lot of real, hard swimming.

While there are a lot of lifelong super-slow swimmers at every pool, pretty much all of these folks have no interest in doing gutbusting fast or hard workouts to actually improve. If you forced them into a situation where they HAD to get faster, like putting them permanently in the lane of a masters group where they had to work extremely hard to keep up, there's a 100% chance that they'd be begging for technique improvement and learning everything and anything they can about it because it hurts so bad to just suffer through these workouts.

Totally agree that ex-competitive swimmers way overhype the magic speed of technique. While I agree that technique is pretty much everything for down to 2:00/100m (give and take given genetic gifts), the AVERAGE person isn't going to be anywhere near 1:20/100 with just technique unless they had years of hard swimming in the past, or are really, really gifted in it (of which there are quite a few on this forum.)

You can indeed spent countless hours in the pool and not be a better swimmer, but all of those very same folks are NOT getting any fitter for it. They're not pushing their limits and not interested in getting into the pain threshold where improvements really happen.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [adal] [ In reply to ]
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"But when the gun goes off, your 1:15 swimmer does not loose 5 minutes, but 5 minutes on the swim, 10 on the bike and 20 on the run (due to a lack of swim fitness)."

You are assuming that the additional time invested in swimming would be added to the athlete's workload. In many cases (mine), any additional swimming requires a reduction in running/biking due to the time they have available.





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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Just about every practice should have a set wi technique work and a set with a fitness focus. Preferrably in that order so that you have the technique on your brain during the fitness. Just as in any sport, your technique is going to degrade as you get fatigued during the sets.
It is crucial that as you go through your endurance sets, you really put some focus on making sure your technique remains at the end of the set. If not, you are going to fatigue more rapidly as your technique fails.
There have been a couple of world class swimmers that have un-orthodox stroke, however, when you do a ratio of them to those that have great technique, they become ripples in an ocean.
If you are short on pool time, invest in some stretch cords and hook them up to a door or pole and work on technique there. It will strengthen your muscles in the areas needed during a swim and help with the muscle memory.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [RKPSUTRI] [ In reply to ]
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After 15 years of trying to convince age groupers of the benefits of swim bands I have given up..

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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So all the people at the pool who are slow are that way because they don't do proper workouts? They don't push themselves? There aren't people who work their asses off but have peaked at a slow speed?

Then I must know the ONLY one in the whole wide world, he lives in the Baltimore area, you can come and meet him if you like, nice guy. Puts in an average of 16k per week, maxes around 20k per week in the heavy part of the schedule. I just checked his log on usms.org. Does a nice periodized schedule to get ready for competitions and yet, he is pretty much on a plateau.

Everybody plateaus somewhere, some of us plateau at a fast speed and some at slow speeds.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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kdw wrote:
"But when the gun goes off, your 1:15 swimmer does not loose 5 minutes, but 5 minutes on the swim, 10 on the bike and 20 on the run (due to a lack of swim fitness)."

You are assuming that the additional time invested in swimming would be added to the athlete's workload. In many cases (mine), any additional swimming requires a reduction in running/biking due to the time they have available.





Kyle, I think what Rappstar and Trevor Wurtele were saying earlier is not that you will apply the training time to bike and running. The point is that for the slower swimmers, not only are they losing time in the water, but they leave more fatigued. This has an impact on the bike times and the run times. Did you ever notice that at the top end of the sport at long course, many of the guys are former swimmers.

For yourself, since you only do half Ironman, you can fake it on a 30-35 min swim, but spending 1:10 in the water has an exponential impact on the bike and run in an Ironman compared to a half IM. You might think you got it all sorted out with your N=1 example at half Ironman and less (and you probably are pretty accurate). But the equation changes substantially when you double all the events and the athletes enters T1 completely trashed in an Ironman.

It does not have to be an "either or"....and I think this is why Rappstar forwarded Paulo's tweet, where one of them (can't remember which one) said it is the time of year to ramp swim mileage. As Fleck says, nothing wrong with reallocating some bike and run time to attempting to make a breakthrough in swimming if swimming is the weakness of an athlete, and then reallocating it back to bike and run later.

I remember having a discussion with Thomas Hellriegel several year ago about training in Germany in the winter....he basically said that he parked the bike and only used it on days that he could get out without freezing too badly as he hated the cold and spent the winter focusing on a ton of swim and run volume. Then he'd fly to Lanzarote or Mallorca for breaks through the winter, ride till he dropped and then come back to Germany and focus again on swim and run.

Having said that, I appreciate that for many of us, pool access alone makes swimming a sport that is very difficult to train for, but at least if we ignore swimming, we're doing so with our eyes open, knowing that better results could be achieved by treating swimming more seriously.

Lot's of guys who chose to focus on the run and bike keep brainwashing themselves, with statements like "swimming is a waste of time". Well, maybe if you focus on shorter races that are always wetsuit, these guys have a point, but every so often they end up in a non wetsuit race and it's a complete disaster. Even though I don't put in a ton of swim time NOW due to life constraints, I always look forward to the no wetsuit swims, because I don't get stupidly slower with no wetsuit, because I did what these guys suggested 18 years ago, which was invest in a few 6 month blocks of 20K per week of swimming....the result was 54 min swim at Roth (short) and 56 min at IMC. Unfortunately some shoulder and neck injuries took away some of those gains (mobility), but the main reason for my current slowness is lack of swimming. The point is that most of the speed at those races was simply from better swim fitness....when I was swimming 56 at IMC, I could not even swim a single 100m in 1:20 (no wetsuit), yet I could hold a 1:28 pace all day in wetsuit. Most of it was fitness.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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210 posts later, are we still arguing for a dichotomy between fitness and technique in the swim?


3 Months of Paradigm Shifting Swim Instruction for Cheap ---- Your Professional & Private “Critique my Fit”
The Swim Help Compilation Thread

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Nacly] [ In reply to ]
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Nacly wrote:
I think that the kick provides a counter to set the body rotation and positions the torso so it can rotate around the catch.

I definitely use my kick as part of the way I control body roll. I don't put a ton of effort into it- I consider myself to be a pretty light two beat kicker on freestyle- but it's an integral part of my free, and I definitely slow down when it's not there. On pull buoy sets, I'm significantly slower than without a buoy, and I always end up feeling like I'm rotating way too much sideways and then having to spend way too much energy rotating back to the other side.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
Hmmm, band.... I literally drown should i ever put that thing on.

#helplifeguard

Paddles by themselves however......

X2

The very thing that is supposed to teach me or at least keep me focused on keeping my hips and legs UP forces me to the bottom feet first. I have to admit I have gotten away from paddles in recent times. I will have to get a pair as I suspect I've gotten some bad stroke habits after 10 years of not being coached at all.

I tried to convice sentania to yank out the pull bouy this morning and go with the band only. He declined but offered the band to me. Very nice of him.

________________
Blogging
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, it's freaking awesome. Like watching replays of a trainwreck...in slow motion.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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I think there are a bunch of sub topics in hear. I think one of them is the time allocation for swimming vs other sports and the payback. Rich Strauss probably nailed that topic the best. Ultratriguy and I are discussing the awesomeness of Ricky Ponting and Sachin too. I was expecting a few Aussies to jump into that one overnite.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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impressive 140 characters
but even more impressive Rappstar,s post about his own swim training.
that makes champions, if they can question their system and can admit that maybe they could have done something better ( a good athlete is never happy with its performance)

And as whole heartily I agree with the authority
for some people total immersion also works ( about 1-1,5 in 10 ) and if a coach knows real coaching of which total immersion or whatever can be a part of it there is nothing wrong with that as long there is not glide cult for everybody involved.
I am sure few people try out more stuff than Sutton and he always does experiment with people that have nothing to lose
there is not a one system fits all system.
Even Terry admitted it that his approach did not work for him when he got slower working on efficiency.
at the end its always what gets you from start to finish in the fastest way. and often the only way to know that is to try......

http://www.pb3coaching.com
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
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This is why very accomplished swimmers are terrible at teaching adults to swim.


Then why the following comment from you earlier to another poster?


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You sure talk a lot for someone that is doing 2min/100m.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [songmak] [ In reply to ]
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songmak wrote:

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This is why very accomplished swimmers are terrible at teaching adults to swim.


Then why the following comment from you earlier to another poster?


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You sure talk a lot for someone that is doing 2min/100m.

There is an enormous spread between very accomplished swimmers and 2:00/100m. Roughly, I'd say about 1:10/100m if you want to be technical.

REALLY good swimmers often make poor *ADULT* coaches;as an addendum to that, I'd say they often make good youth coaches, because most of them learned as kids, and can often instruct children with a similar approach to what it was they made them a really good swimmer.

Many - though not all - elite swimmers tend to apply the same approach they used for success to coaching adults. But you can't coach a 26yo and a 6yo to swim in the same way.

Lastly, someone who is a 2:00/100m swimmer is a really shitty swimmer.

So, yes, really good swimmers often make poor adult coaches. But that doesn't somehow mean that really shitty swimmers make good coaches. That's about as bizarre a logical fallacy as I've seen on this forum - really good swimmers make shitty coaches, ergo really shitty swimmers make good coaches? Seriously?


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [T-Wurt] [ In reply to ]
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Trevor,

Your contribution to the thread is valuable and provides some insight. But, I fear you may have a 1000 Straight-Band-Only-Single-Arm-Free set in the near future. :)
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Lastly, someone who is a 2:00/100m swimmer is a really shitty swimmer.

Alarm Bells. Paging Dev Paul. Talk down alert!! ;-)



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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JoeO wrote:
superphil wrote:


Yeah, and I think that's shortsighted for a couple reasons. One, it's about the journey - you can figure out for yourself what this means to you.


I have figured it out. If I train easily, casually - then that's mostly for the journey. But if I'm dragging myself out of bed at 5:30 in the morning and doing swim interval workouts late at night and blowing $500 for an entry fee -- it's no longer just for the journey. That's for the result. That's for racing.

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Two, as Rappstar, T-Wurt and others have very eloquently explained already, being a better swimmer makes you a better triathlete, ESPECIALLY in ironman.


Better = faster. At least in every race I've ever done. Not faster in just the swim. Faster at the end of the race. They don't hand out the awards at T1. Maybe you have some other definition of better but that's mine. I don't think I'm alone in that regard.

Now we might disagree on how exactly to allocate our training to get to that finish line faster and that's fine. But I'm not doing this so I can wax philosophical about my "craft".

I didn't mean "better" in some greater metaphysical sense. I meant faster. Let's imagine you need to do a no wetsuit swim. Or a race with rough water. Or even just want to get out of the washing machine that can beat you up. All of those things WILL make you faster overall. And that's assuming that swimming just benefits the swim.

Swimming improves your overall speed as a triathlete because, as T-Wurt pointed out and I tried to, you start the bike less tired. I have no way to prove this, but I would wager that the time required to train your cycling to overcome inadequate swim training is actually greater than the swim training required to simply not have the swim tire you out. I.e., if you take the time you would have spent training the swim and instead train the bike, you will NOT realize 100% of the fitness gains that you make on the bike, because you will be fatigued from swimming, and the harder you wish to ride, the more of a role this is going to play.

Swimming makes you a better triathlon cyclist. Even if you don't get any faster - which you will - the fitness gains in the water will translate onto the bike; biking is hugely reliant on "general" aerobic fitness. Swimming would even make you a better duathlete, though obviously not as much as if you spent that time biking/running. But if you need to swim anyway, realize that the benefits don't stop once you exit the water. Cycling fitness, however, does not transfer to the specifics of swimming particularly well. Swimming is a technique intensive sport - which is why so many people assume they should do drills in the first place; cycling is not - there is very little difference between the way Fabian Cancellara pedals and the way some random guy on the exercycle at the gym pedals; Fabian just pedals harder.

I think EVERYONE realizes how important cycling fitness is to running a quality triathlon run. But it amazes how many people fail to apply that same simple logic to the impact of swimming on cycling (and really the rest of the race as a whole). The above is even more of a case against "technique" work. The real point of swimming is not really, IMO, to become faster, though that is a nice side benefit. It's to have the swim tire you out less. And "technique/drill" does nothing for that.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
210 posts later, are we still arguing for a dichotomy between fitness and technique in the swim?

I think, officially, this is the thread of the year.

@rhyspencer
Http://www.rhysspencer.blogspot.ca
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [rhys] [ In reply to ]
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rhys wrote:
Dave Luscan wrote:
210 posts later, are we still arguing for a dichotomy between fitness and technique in the swim?


I think, officially, this is the thread of the year.

I think that if a tri-friend asked me what ST is like, I would point him/her to this thread so that they might understand the culture here.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting point that goes along with the recent Lukas V interview. He said he felt like he was a better runner, and more fit, when he was doing tri training. Sounds like he missed the extra aerobic benifits he got from the other 2 sports.



https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [SH] [ In reply to ]
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I think that if a tri-friend asked me what ST is like, I would point him/her to this thread so that they might understand the culture here.
____________________________________

You would do that to a friend? Jeez. :)
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