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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to bring this back. But did we decide that time spent on form is wasted time? What if it's time spent on form during warmup or cooldown where pace matters less per se?
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [cjathey] [ In reply to ]
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cjathey wrote:
Sorry to bring this back. But did we decide that time spent on form is wasted time? What if it's time spent on form during warmup or cooldown where pace matters less per se?

I was wondering this yesterday while staring at the black line. I tried the EN approach of taking the winter off. So these first few sessions, I am doing drills. After that, I hope that throwing yards at the problem will fix it. I think that was the conclusion.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [cjathey] [ In reply to ]
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cjathey wrote:
Sorry to bring this back. But did we decide that time spent on form is wasted time? What if it's time spent on form during warmup or cooldown where pace matters less per se?

This is a very long thread, way too long at this point. And I am not sure what you mean by "time spent on form." I do think that time spent on randomly chosen drills is time wasted. But I do know a few indisputable facts: in the drag vs. propulsion equation, reducing drag is just as critical as increasing propulsion. I don't know about the experience of others on this forum, but in my experience of 20+ years in triathlon and nearly as many years in swim technique coaching, I have yet to find an single example of a frequent 'adult-onset' swimmer with poor form whose technique significantly improved just by doing more yards.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Like I heard I enter the water wrong and need to to finger tip drag and drills like that. If I include that in my warmup is it a waste?
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [cjathey] [ In reply to ]
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I'm (hesitantly) throwing this out into the discussion.....

The last few weeks, I have been focusing on my swim more than in the past. As one of those who was asking questions about the "increase volume approach", I thought I would share what I have been doing.

I have increased my volume to between 8-10k / week, most of it with the pull buoy (taking the advice of swimming with the toys). But I often do my warm-ups by doing a few drills first to find "my feel." Nothing crazy, just a few hundred meters....some one-armed drills, fist, catch-up, etc. Then I do some of the early sets just swimming and switch over the the buoy as I tire.

So what have I noticed....I'm definitely getting faster with a pull buoy, I can tell you that! I'm down to about 1:45- 1:50 / 100m, from ~2:00. As for my freestyle, can't say I have noticed any signficant time gains....but my endurance is improving. My stroke is MUCH better with the buoy, but I struggle with holding the same form w/ freestyle. Dunno if it is the extra effort needed for my kicking, or what.

That said, I've also been worried about becoming too dependent on the buoy (at least mentally), so I ditched it for a good chunk of my swim yesterday. It took awhile, but I finally seemed to find a better rhythm, but it took over 500m to get there.

So we'll see.....I'm committed to working in more swim volume and using the buoy if that is what I need to achieve that goal. I still have plenty of months before any race, so if my endurance is all I am improving right now, that is fine. I'll build the foundation and go from there. I'm still a cr@ppy enough swimmer that working on technique makes sense (to me at least), since I can definitely feel a difference after some drills to improve my stroke.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Read a Brett Sutton article today, mentioned on slowtwitch before that says swimming well in triathlon is just taking risks. I can really agree with that. Being willing to deal with the fray can be a great way to get better.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
I have increased my volume to between 8-10k / week

FTW!!!
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
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The Authority wrote:
Power13 wrote:

I have increased my volume to between 8-10k / week


FTW!!!

Never claimed it was anything huge....but a significant step-up for me. But always good to know I don't measure up to the expectations of an internet troll.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Hey dude, just having a little fun. In fact, big props for swimming 100% more than the EN people!
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
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The Authority wrote:
Hey dude, just having a little fun. In fact, big props for swimming 100% more than the EN people!

Your math is wrong. 100% more than zero is still zero. :-)

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [cjathey] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think you should apologize for bringing this thread back, I am extremely grateful to the people who put it up here, and to the great Brett Sutton article, I hope other people read it and are helped by it too. I've struggled with the swim as my limiter for years, and have had no luck with the drill heavy, on deck coach approach. I just don't think adult onset, lifelong runner/ biker types respond to the same type of training as high school kids. After two months of following the buoy/paddles/band approach I am really starting to see my times come down and my feel for the water increase. This Saturday I did 10x100, 3x200, 1x500 two times through, alternating between 1:25 and 1:20 go times and felt like my rhythm and timing only improved through the session. I ended up swimming 4200 yards in 57:30, a PB.

To the people denigrating this approach: drills ARE definitely a good thing, but you have to realize that we athletes with huge tree trunk legs can't do the same things as skinny little elementary kids/ high schoolers. Those legs SINK, and our heart rate soars, way before we can work out the balance kinks, hand timing and rhythm that it takes to swim successfully. I am very happy that Brett wrote his article, Paulo tweeted this, and Jordan posted it here. Though I'll have to wait until my first open water swim to know for sure, it feels like a lightbulb has finally come on.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [pebtri] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad you've had a breakthrough. That's the type of stuff I like to hear. The type of stuff I'm doing though not so much. I feel like I've gained time, and the only thing I can pinpoint is that I've stopped focusing on form.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [cjathey] [ In reply to ]
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Fingertip drill is a massive waste of time.

The only form stuff you need to be thinking about is high elbow/early vertical forearm, pressing your chest, kicking in a bucket, and keeping your head down.

You can think about that during warm up, cool down and everything in between. You don't need to dedicate specific drill time to working on it.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [cjathey] [ In reply to ]
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cjathey wrote:
Sorry to bring this back. But did we decide that time spent on form is wasted time? What if it's time spent on form during warmup or cooldown where pace matters less per se?

Remember, a lot of the key takeaway is that the basis of your swimming should be fitness-oriented. If like to do a 50 of each arm swimming single arm to get loose during warm-up. I use it as technique cues. I wouldn't really say drill, it's more like just something that maybe makes you think of something that you will want to cue yourself on during the main set. During a set of say 30x100 on 5-10sec rest, you aren't going to be going so hard that you can't actually think of some things that you need to work on (in my case, it's a wider entry). Likewise, cooling down, I like to do some stuff that focuses on a super wide entry to hopefully leave that as a bit of lasting impression on my muscles when I get out. But I don't spend time during the main set on those.

There is nothing wrong with doing some focused, easy swimming during warm-up and cool-down. BUT, if you are short on time, that's the stuff that gets truncated or eliminated. You also shouldn't assume that such time is going to fix or correct a problem. What it can do is make you more aware, so that you can focus on it during the main set. If you make a small change that you can hold during your long, hard main set, THAT (the main set) is what will really ingrain that change.


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [cjathey] [ In reply to ]
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Here is a very interesting interview with Gerry Rodrigues on the subject. Good read.

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Fortunately, with triathlon becoming an Olympic sport in 2000, more substantive coaches are entering the space, raising the present mark of swim coaching and triathlon coaching in general. There are many good swim coaches for triathletes; unfortunately, many do not publish. Here are some examples worth following when they do publish: Swim Smooth (Paul Newsome); Jim Vance; Mike Collins; Joel Filliol; Brett Sutton; Matt Dixon. These coaches together, along with a few others, are the future for triathlon swimming.
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Given the limited time budget for triathletes, many spend way too much time doing the traditional pool drills mentioned. Its almost a waste of time. Ive observed beginners kicking on their sides, almost drowning; complete torture, too advanced, and a real waste of learning time. Just swim!
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Regarding technique, do less of the conventional drills; swim more with enforcement of body tautness and alignment using your snorkel. Kick less; learn to lift your head while keeping proper body positioning. Have very specific training workouts. Do at least some fast swimming in every workout!
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But, my 30 years of triathlon sport exposure and coaching background tell me that there should be carry-over benefits to both riding and running. The cost of improper swimming preparation in terms of wasted effort is high, which likely hurts the ride and run segments.
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There are too many inexperienced coaches teaching swimming in the sport. They have read a swim book, watched a dvd, or received a Triathlon coaching certificate thinking that qualifies them.


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Last edited by: Jamaican: Feb 6, 12 23:02
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
this is a perfect segue to my invitation, jordan, to join me on my intended birthday set: 55 x 100yd repeating on 1:30. should be a piece of cake for you. followed maybe by an MTB ride over the backbone if i do this down in the valley. i'm figuring out when/where to do it. right now i'm thinking santa clarita aquatics center, but, maybe closer to you. we'll see. sometime around the end of jan, beginning of feb.

Hey! How did your birthday set go?

Sharon

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [docpeachey] [ In reply to ]
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i got sick, then i got injured, then i got sick. so, i haven't done it yet. maybe i'll swim 55x100yd + another 50 by the time i'm 50 and a half. getting there!


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to hear that --- no one should be sick on their birthday. Hope you at least got to eat cake.

Sharon

Festina Lente
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Fastyellow wrote:
I'll add another name to this argument....Gerry Rodrigues

I had a private lesson with Gerry about 3-4 months ago. I was expecting to get all this technical info on what I was doing wrong and how I could magically drop 10 secs/100 by improving my horrible technique.....(it's not that bad but you get the gist of what I was looking for.)

My advice after an hour of 1 on 1..."yup, you're good enough...just go swim lots"

Sure he identified some problems here and there....but the basic takeaway was just go swim.

THIS. PERIOD. SWIM LOTS. AND MERCKX SAID SAME THING ON CYCLING: RIDE LOTS.


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Jamaican] [ In reply to ]
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Jamaican wrote:
Here is a very interesting interview with Gerry Rodrigues on the subject. Good read.

Quote:
Fortunately, with triathlon becoming an Olympic sport in 2000, more substantive coaches are entering the space, raising the present mark of swim coaching and triathlon coaching in general. There are many good swim coaches for triathletes; unfortunately, many do not publish. Here are some examples worth following when they do publish: Swim Smooth (Paul Newsome); Jim Vance; Mike Collins; Joel Filliol; Brett Sutton; Matt Dixon. These coaches together, along with a few others, are the future for triathlon swimming.

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Given the limited time budget for triathletes, many spend way too much time doing the traditional pool drills mentioned. Its almost a waste of time. Ive observed beginners kicking on their sides, almost drowning; complete torture, too advanced, and a real waste of learning time. Just swim!

Quote:
Regarding technique, do less of the conventional drills; swim more with enforcement of body tautness and alignment using your snorkel. Kick less; learn to lift your head while keeping proper body positioning. Have very specific training workouts. Do at least some fast swimming in every workout!

Quote:
But, my 30 years of triathlon sport exposure and coaching background tell me that there should be carry-over benefits to both riding and running. The cost of improper swimming preparation in terms of wasted effort is high, which likely hurts the ride and run segments.

Quote:
There are too many inexperienced coaches teaching swimming in the sport. They have read a swim book, watched a dvd, or received a Triathlon coaching certificate thinking that qualifies them.

With all the swim discussion going on here in March 2016, just thought I'd give this valuable thread from 2011-12 a bump, lots of good stuff in here:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I was recently discussing this with my wife, regarding our kids. When I swam with a club, you just swam. The coach never pulled you out and corrected catch or pull. You swim and swim hard, if you can't keep up you get dropped and switched to a slower lane. Whether or not you were okay with that depended on your mental fortitude. The strong got faster the weak were left behind
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kitch] [ In reply to ]
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This is more of an example of "sorting" rather than coaching, the same thing that goes on in some high school biology courses.

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