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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
Except for a lot (especially us older guys) we get the fitness beneits in the pool but not the injuries of those extra hrs running biking. Fitness gained in the pool I believe is aften overlooked. Being in my 50's I can get some pretty good threshold work down in the pool, which I simply cannot do as much on the bike and run do to recovery

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x2...and for me surf swimming is making me much stronger overall.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Constantine] [ In reply to ]
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Then Soren may want his name spelled right ;>)
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
As Simon Whitfield says, "Chop wood & carry water"

Just out of curiosity, Steve, where do you think Simon got that?


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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Based upon my n=1 two years back in the sport, year 1 was totally solo swimming, almost all paddles and pull bouy. Last year was more masters swimming and less pull bouy. To be honest, I think my swim was not as strong as the previous year, meaning while I was slightly faster, I didn't finish swims as fresh. This thread, Sutton's and Paulo's comments and those of Jordan have me rethinking my swim. I think that technique wise I am ok, never perfect, but if swimming with the toys helps the end game, maybe I should get back on it.

Interesting thread for sure don't you think? :)

Brent

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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duh... from you

i mean, after all, yer the asian guy ;) so of course you have all the great quotes. Can i rub your belly? Or after you've ridden across canada.... your abs!!! :)

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Bella was definitely a 2:00+ sub swimmer initially. I believe she plied her trade with Darren Smith in the Scotland team before eventually moving to Brett Sutton... Two coaches who share pretty similar views.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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have nothing to add regarding swimming.

But I want to thank you for this thread. It's been great reading- some great lines & info to take from it.
Very educational @ 4am.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Power13 wrote:
But if you have flaws in your stroke, simply going for volume doesn't seem like it will fix these issues


You got it.

I posted a link to an article written by a long time swim coach (& sub 44 IM swimmer), stating exactly this. It didn't go down too well on here....
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Robert Preston] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I love it how people enjoy arguing about stuff like this

I love it how people, the majority who wouldn't know how to fix a swim stroke if someone gave them to it in a package gift wrapped enjoy arguing about stuff like this.



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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
I love it how people enjoy arguing about stuff like this


I love it how people, the majority who wouldn't know how to fix a swim stroke if someone gave them to it in a package gift wrapped enjoy arguing about stuff like this.



I fixed it for you.

I love it how people, who also wouldn't know how to fix a swim stroke, chime in and imply heavily that they do.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed, that this may not be logistically viable in some cases. I tend to apply this approach in the "riding season" when there is no snow, and try to pick the swim times where I can ride to the pool or in the case of open water ride to open water. The issue of having to haul around either work equipment to the pool/open water and the pool equipment to work is also an issue. For the pool swims, I can haul work stuff there. For the open water swims, not possible. On the other hand, open water swimming is a 16 min ride from home, so if I wake up early enough, I can ride to the swim, ride home, drop off swim gear and then ride to work. Again, I understand all of this may not be possible in many communities, but in mine where it is possible, I see very few people taking advantage of this opporutunity.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I see very few people taking advantage of this opportunity.

Dev,

Are you making fun of the modern triathlete with their locked down, must do, get the numbers, hyper-proprietary, no variation training schedules? ;-)





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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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No, hopefully it was not interpreted that way. I'm just suggesting that the swim-bike brick is logistically a viable workout if the bike is used as part of the transportation process. Otherwise, logistically, the swim-bike brick does become difficult if it involves having to a load a bike inside a car to get to the pool. To some degree, at least in the summer, it seems like a bit of wasted opportunity to place a bike inside (or on top of a car) for local trips. But as I said, I'm probably fortunate to live in a city where you can ride everywhere. Here is town, there are still lots of triathletes, complaining they have no time to train, while their bikes sit inside their cars as they drive 20 min each way to the start of bike workouts. In that 40 minutes of driving time, the guy who rode there, got an extra 60 minutes of trainging done.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Power13 wrote:
But if you have flaws in your stroke, simply going for volume doesn't seem like it will fix these issues


You got it.


I posted a link to an article written by a long time swim coach (& sub 44 IM swimmer), stating exactly this. It didn't go down too well on here....

Got a link? I'd be interested to read it.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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On the other hand, open water swimming is a 16 min ride from home, so if I wake up early enough, I can ride to the swim, ride home, drop off swim gear and then ride to work. Again, I understand all of this may not be possible in many communities, but in mine where it is possible, I see very few people taking advantage of this opporutunity.

_____

Do you have a change of clothes at work? Or do you carry clothes in like a bag or something. I dont work in a suit and tie job, but always wondered about the difficulty in that situation with riding a bike to work (ie for a workout or simply commute style riding). I've got to think for someone's job where they have to wear a suit and tie, doing a swim workout and then biking to work just wont cut it, unless there is a facility to shower/change/prepare for work.

ETA: I'm not trying to make excuses for why more people dont commute to work, more or less trying to understand the dynamics that actually allow you to pull it off. For some, I've got to guess without proper changing facilities, it's just not kousher (sp) to bike-swim workout-bike to work. Of course if someone is the boss man of their company, they can basically do whatever they want.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
No, hopefully it was not interpreted that way. I'm just suggesting that the swim-bike brick is logistically a viable workout if the bike is used as part of the transportation process. Otherwise, logistically, the swim-bike brick does become difficult if it involves having to a load a bike inside a car to get to the pool. To some degree, at least in the summer, it seems like a bit of wasted opportunity to place a bike inside (or on top of a car) for local trips. But as I said, I'm probably fortunate to live in a city where you can ride everywhere. Here is town, there are still lots of triathletes, complaining they have no time to train, while their bikes sit inside their cars as they drive 20 min each way to the start of bike workouts. In that 40 minutes of driving time, the guy who rode there, got an extra 60 minutes of trainging done.

I've brought my bike to OWS plenty of times and done a swim / bike brick. I've also ridden to an OWS w/ a backpack, done my swim and ridden back home. Both work well and are pretty easy logistically.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Generally, we see plateaus broken through in a somewhat significant manner before we see the methods used to achieve that breakthrough being heralded as the best and perhaps only way to do so.

In the recent past you self described yourself at a swimming plateau. In this thread you seem quite certain that your methods are the only good ones. Usually those two things don't go together. Can you elaborate?


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Fun thread. I agree with Paulo's tweet. I do find it funny when people suggest spending time swimming only creates small gains on time while ignoring the massive gains in aerobic fitness you also derive.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
Fun thread. I agree with Paulo's tweet. I do find it funny when people suggest spending time swimming only creates small gains on time while ignoring the massive gains in aerobic fitness you also derive.

You are correct, you will definitely get big gains from getting aerobic swim fitness. But the problem is, even those gains won't be anywhere near big enough to overcome the monumental drag created by trying to move faster through the water with a bad body position and technique.

Even lance armstrong on meds wouldn't be able to win a local amateur bike race if he had to ride around with an 8 foot parachute behind his bike. It doesn't matter what kind of massive aerobic fitness he has, it just won't happen. That's exactly what happens in the water with bad technique. And just piling on more swimming won't solve that problem.

By the way, when I say, technique, it is not doing more drills or just playing around with swim toys ...

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [David B] [ In reply to ]
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David B wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I just went from a totally terrible swimmer (like 2:20/100) to mildly terrible (1:45 Tpace for 2000 now) over 2 years. Read everything on the forums here and BT, trained very hard for a newb (so hard that my shoulder strains were the limiting factor) and really focused hard on technique. Spent the entire first 6 months doing nothing but technique.


This is always my issue with the whole swimming thing. You can bust your ass for an entire year (or even two) to get an improvement of :30/100meters, so a time savings of 7.5 minutes in an Oly distance race or even up to 20 minutes in an Ironman if you can keep your new technique smooth for an entire 4000 meters. If you can improve your cycling by 2 mph and your run by :30/mile then you gain over 40 minutes in an Ironman. Obviously if you combine all three you're laughing - but I think that time invested on the bike and the run is much better spent when you think about spending 6-8 hours a week in a pool as opposed to biking and running during that time. Just my .02.

If you are a 1:20 swimmer, then a 20 minute improvement in your time is a 25% improvement. I don't think there is a person on the board that wouldn't take a 25% improvement in any segment.

And, if you TRULY put in the time, I would think most people could chop 20-30 seconds off of their 100 pace in less than a year.

Add to that, you spend 20 less minutes thrashing around in the water, which saves energy and puts you on to the bike 20 minutes earlier than your normal group of competitors.

John



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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
Generally, we see plateaus broken through in a somewhat significant manner before we see the methods used to achieve that breakthrough being heralded as the best and perhaps only way to do so.

In the recent past you self described yourself at a swimming plateau. In this thread you seem quite certain that your methods are the only good ones. Usually those two things don't go together. Can you elaborate?

Yes. I find it very hard to improve my swimming while also trying to improve my run and my cycling, both of which are typically more important for winning races, especially the races that I had on my schedule. I *believe* I came very close to breaking through the plateau I sat on for most of this year - Abu Dhabi being the notable exception where I had a bad swim - but I think that because of the bike-intensive nature of preparing for Abu Dhabi, I probably backed off my swimming too soon.

It's always a tough balance with three sports, and - in retrospect - I actually think that when I was tired from a lot of biking and running, I would have been better off had I done significantly more pulling and paddle work. I.e., when I look at how my swim maybe suffered - and even stalled a bit - this year, I think it's precisely because I did NOT follow the advice here. Not that I shifted to drills or any of that nonsense, but I think I was loathe to "rely" on paddles and the pull buoy and that I had worse sessions when I could have had better sessions if I'd just been willing to throw on the paddles more quickly.

That being said, I think Abu Dhabi was the only real outlier performance in the water this year, and I think I corrected the larger errors that I made leading into that race. Right now, I'm determined not to make the same mistake again, and I've started a heavier swim focus - that I will continue for longer - in hopes of actually breaking through the plateau this year. And I've made sure to use MORE paddles, more pull buoy, and ESPECIALLY more band in order to do so. So far, in just a few weeks, I've already set PBs, so it seems to be working. Now to keep the foot on the gas rather than thinking the changes are already sticky...


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
which saves energy and puts you on to the bike 20 minutes earlier than your normal group of competitors

Forest, trees. So many want to see the forest but only look at a tree.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. I think technique work should be part of each session regardless of ability to swim 1 or 1000 laps.

Dave
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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That is a bit harsh....and most swims these days are essentially giant pools where most are fine - the crowds though can make things challenging and that is hard to train for/practice. Also it would be very hard for most triathletes to get rough water experience/wave experience....

Dave
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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daveinmammoth wrote:
That is a bit harsh....and most swims these days are essentially giant pools where most are fine - the crowds though can make things challenging and that is hard to train for/practice. Also it would be very hard for most triathletes to get rough water experience/wave experience....

Dave

That sould have been in pink. Maybe. I feel comfortable saying on average triathletes are terrible swimmers, even more so in open water. For a triathlete I'm a pretty decent swimmer but throw me in with some real swimmers and I'm a joke.

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