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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [coachdaz] [ In reply to ]
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Tell us more about this "leveraging the body past the forearm" stuff. How do you go about addressing this issue? Im guessin this is where I might be losing some time. I suppose its all about body rotation/hips/kick rythms too.

Thanks for giving us some of your time!
Last edited by: PBFLRacing: Dec 31, 11 10:03
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I think Paulo is bang-on correct if you are a good swimmer.

But I have seen so many athletes with less-than-perfect-form (including myself) try to "get fitter" in the water by swimming hard - and just end up cementing some extremely bad habits.

I could put on a weighted vest, some ankle weights, and a motorcycle helmet and go run up and down my block as hard as a I can, but it's not really making me a better marathoner. It's just cementing some really bad form, and annoying the neighbors.

Ben Greenfield

Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [pacificfit] [ In reply to ]
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pacificfit wrote:


But I have seen so many athletes with less-than-perfect-form (including myself) try to "get fitter" in the water by swimming hard - and just end up cementing some extremely bad habits.

I could put on a weighted vest, some ankle weights, and a motorcycle helmet and go run up and down my block as hard as a I can, but it's not really making me a better marathoner. It's just cementing some really bad form, and annoying the neighbors.

WOW... that was embarrassing to read... and I thought the golf analogy was bad...
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
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The Authority wrote:
pacificfit wrote:


But I have seen so many athletes with less-than-perfect-form (including myself) try to "get fitter" in the water by swimming hard - and just end up cementing some extremely bad habits.

I could put on a weighted vest, some ankle weights, and a motorcycle helmet and go run up and down my block as hard as a I can, but it's not really making me a better marathoner. It's just cementing some really bad form, and annoying the neighbors.

WOW... that was embarrassing to read... and I thought the golf analogy was bad...

I could put on a weighted vest, some wrist weights, and a motorcycle helmet and hit a lot of golf balls, but it's not really making me a better golfer...

Smile


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [pacificfit] [ In reply to ]
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I could put on a weighted vest, some ankle weights, and a motorcycle helmet and go run up and down my block as hard as a I can, but it's not really making me a better marathoner. It's just cementing some really bad form, and annoying the neighbors.

But, Ben, it might be helpful to do this as a form of resistance training, if you were involved with car racing and had to do those LeMans style starts where you had to run to your car for the start! ;-)

Specificity!



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kennyDalglish] [ In reply to ]
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kennyDalglish wrote:
..

MANY people are able to swim for 200m (I say 200 because it's long enough that you can't just "fake it" and sprint the whole way, unlike, say, a 50) at a pace that they'd be VERY happy with for 2000m. So it's not like their stroke is bad. It just BECOMES bad when they get tired. Fitness is the limiter.

..


This makes more sense than the other 500 posts in this thread. And I would say it is compounded when instead of doing x200's with appropriate rest, the common triathlete workout is 300 "drill" followed by 2000 yards strait, improving neither form nor fitness.
Last edited by: sdmike: Dec 31, 11 19:37
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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sdmike wrote:
kennyDalglish wrote:
..

MANY people are able to swim for 200m (I say 200 because it's long enough that you can't just "fake it" and sprint the whole way, unlike, say, a 50) at a pace that they'd be VERY happy with for 2000m. So it's not like their stroke is bad. It just BECOMES bad when they get tired. Fitness is the limiter.

..

This makes more sense than the other 500 posts in this thread. And I would say it it componded when instead of doing x200's with appropriate rest, the common triathlete workout is 300 "drill" followed by 2000 yards strait, improving neither form nor fitness.

Ironically I wrote the quote above. And I also wrote the very first post in this entire thread, though it was just a cut-n-paste of Paulo's tweet. And they basically say the exact same thing...

But we're not quite at 500 posts yet, so there might be a true gem involving newtons, golf balls, ankle weights, and Total Immersion just around the corner. Hope springs eternal!


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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But we're not quite at 500 posts yet, so there might be a true gem involving newtons, golf balls, ankle weights, and Total Immersion just around the corner. Hope springs eternal!

Your word is Gold! ;-)



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Actually the main reason a lot of people struggle with swimming is because there shoulders are too damaged from car seat belts digging into them..
I know sounds ridiculous but I have peer reviewed evidence to back it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJUBFkVrk9s
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So now your promoting cross-fit..:>)
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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But we're not quite at 500 posts yet, so there might be a true gem involving newtons, golf balls, ankle weights, and Total Immersion just around the corner. Hope springs eternal!

I do my Total Immersion drills with my Newtons and ankle weights on while holding golf balls. Total Immersion is my form work, the golf balls are the fist drill, the ankle weights provide resistance and the Newtons ensure I get a good mid-foot push off on my flip turns. It's very time efficient to work on that many things at once.

I'm kidding. I don't own Newtons.

This thread helped get me through a slow, boring week at work. Good stuff.


------------
My Blog | Twitter
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:

Ironically I wrote the quote above. And I also wrote the very first post in this entire thread, though it was just a cut-n-paste of Paulo's tweet. And they basically say the exact same thing...

But we're not quite at 500 posts yet, so there might be a true gem involving newtons, golf balls, ankle weights, and Total Immersion just around the corner. Hope springs eternal!

Why do you hate Alexander Pope?

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Derf] [ In reply to ]
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Derf wrote:
Rappstar wrote:

Ironically I wrote the quote above. And I also wrote the very first post in this entire thread, though it was just a cut-n-paste of Paulo's tweet. And they basically say the exact same thing...

But we're not quite at 500 posts yet, so there might be a true gem involving newtons, golf balls, ankle weights, and Total Immersion just around the corner. Hope springs eternal!

Why do you hate Alexander Pope?

"Slowtwitch: the glory, jest, and riddle of the triathlon world."


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:

But we're not quite at 500 posts yet, so there might be a true gem involving newtons, golf balls, ankle weights, and Total Immersion just around the corner. Hope springs eternal!

Your word is Gold! ;-)

How come no one weaved powercranks into this yet....ooops, I just did.

I said it before but thanks to all the swimming with paddles, I went from zero XC skiing to exactly 160K in a 7 day period. Sutton is a genius!

Carry on!
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Is there certain swim ability that should be reached before using bands?

For example, if you can only hold 2:00/100m or 1:40/100m?
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Can someone give me an idea of where i'm at, I know im a shitty swimmer but i need to know where im at on a technique vs. yardage scale if you know what I mean.

I swim 2-3 times a week, 4000- 6000/m max. I can bang out 1;36/100's maybe 10 times. A sprint tri would be 12;45 to 13;15 for 750m... obviously I need to swim a lot more, but do I have some 'technique' that if I do increase my yardage for better 'fitness' that I will see decent gains?

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [uncle_evan] [ In reply to ]
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uncle_evan wrote:
I swim 2-3 times a week, 4000- 6000/m max. I can bang out 1;36/100's maybe 10 times. A sprint tri would be 12;45 to 13;15 for 750m... obviously I need to swim a lot more, but do I have some 'technique' that if I do increase my yardage for better 'fitness' that I will see decent gains?

I guess it depends what you mean by 'decent gains'.

I might be a bit faster than you, I can probably do those 100s on 1:33/1:32. If I increase my mileage to say 9 to 10k per week I can get down to 1:29/1:28ish. 90min per week to get less than 90secs on a HIM.

To me it's worth it if I'm going to race Olys. Better invest the time in my run if I am going to do HIM. My simplistic way of seeing things.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
uncle_evan wrote:

I swim 2-3 times a week, 4000- 6000/m max. I can bang out 1;36/100's maybe 10 times. A sprint tri would be 12;45 to 13;15 for 750m... obviously I need to swim a lot more, but do I have some 'technique' that if I do increase my yardage for better 'fitness' that I will see decent gains?


I guess it depends what you mean by 'decent gains'.

I might be a bit faster than you, I can probably do those 100s on 1:33/1:32. If I increase my mileage to say 9 to 10k per week I can get down to 1:29/1:28ish. 90min per week to get less than 90secs on a HIM.

To me it's worth it if I'm going to race Olys. Better invest the time in my run if I am going to do HIM. My simplistic way of seeing things.

I guess 'decent' is relative, for me it would be to hold that 1;36/100m pace in a sprint tri....

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [uncle_evan] [ In reply to ]
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uncle_evan wrote:
Can someone give me an idea of where i'm at, I know im a shitty swimmer but i need to know where im at on a technique vs. yardage scale if you know what I mean.

I swim 2-3 times a week, 4000- 6000/m max. I can bang out 1;36/100's maybe 10 times. A sprint tri would be 12;45 to 13;15 for 750m... obviously I need to swim a lot more, but do I have some 'technique' that if I do increase my yardage for better 'fitness' that I will see decent gains?

It depends on your workouts. Your average sprint tri pace is 1:45, and you can hold 1:35 for 1000m with rest in a pool. Suggests you need more time doing intervals and threshold work.

And holding 1:45 race pace is not that bad, but definitely room for improvement.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin wrote:
uncle_evan wrote:
Can someone give me an idea of where i'm at, I know im a shitty swimmer but i need to know where im at on a technique vs. yardage scale if you know what I mean.

I swim 2-3 times a week, 4000- 6000/m max. I can bang out 1;36/100's maybe 10 times. A sprint tri would be 12;45 to 13;15 for 750m... obviously I need to swim a lot more, but do I have some 'technique' that if I do increase my yardage for better 'fitness' that I will see decent gains?


It depends on your workouts. Your average sprint tri pace is 1:45, and you can hold 1:35 for 1000m with rest in a pool. Suggests you need more time doing intervals and threshold work.

And holding 1:45 race pace is not that bad, but definitely room for improvement.

John

so what should 2 or 3, 2000/m workouts look like, not a complete breakdown, but say m/f or m/w/f which day(s) should be threshold and intervals and what percentage of the workout should be threshold or intervals. I do lots of 250m or 500m repeats right now... and some 100/m intervals and 50/m intervals.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Just look at Paulo's athletes. See how much their swimming has improved.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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It's more than just about how much there swimming has improved, it's about how much harder were they capable of racing because their swim improved.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [uncle_evan] [ In reply to ]
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uncle_evan wrote:
Devlin wrote:
uncle_evan wrote:
Can someone give me an idea of where i'm at, I know im a shitty swimmer but i need to know where im at on a technique vs. yardage scale if you know what I mean.

I swim 2-3 times a week, 4000- 6000/m max. I can bang out 1;36/100's maybe 10 times. A sprint tri would be 12;45 to 13;15 for 750m... obviously I need to swim a lot more, but do I have some 'technique' that if I do increase my yardage for better 'fitness' that I will see decent gains?


It depends on your workouts. Your average sprint tri pace is 1:45, and you can hold 1:35 for 1000m with rest in a pool. Suggests you need more time doing intervals and threshold work.

And holding 1:45 race pace is not that bad, but definitely room for improvement.

John


so what should 2 or 3, 2000/m workouts look like, not a complete breakdown, but say m/f or m/w/f which day(s) should be threshold and intervals and what percentage of the workout should be threshold or intervals. I do lots of 250m or 500m repeats right now... and some 100/m intervals and 50/m intervals.

One day of threshold, one day of intervals, one of more distance work, 2-4k per workout. You can add some of each to every workout, but keep the main emphasis on each one. Keep your intervals faster than race pace with longer rest to make each one, and intervals nearer race pace, on shorter rest.

So, a sample interval workout might be:
4x100 SKIP (Swim, kick, IM, Pull) warmup
10x100 under 1:30, rest :45.
5x100 on 2:00
2 x (4x50 pull, focus on early catch)
3x 100 warmdown

If you make the 10x100 easily, the next time around make it 1:25 as a goal pace, same rest. If you can't make it, up the rest period a bit.

Read through the fishtwitch threads, workouts in a binder, etc.

Threshold work will increase the time you can spend at race pace, intervals increase your race pace. Sets like 5x500 don't do much for making you faster, unless you are doing something like 5x(5x100, descend 1:50 - 1:30) Rest :30 , where your first 100 is 1:50, second is 1:45, third is 1:40, etc.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Keep your intervals faster than race pace with longer rest to make each one, and intervals nearer race pace, on shorter rest.

so, which was supposed to be which, you have two intervals ?

thanks again..

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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How do you separate swim fitness improvement from bike and run fitness improvement. I assume that his athletes have changed their training wrt all 3 disciplines.
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