Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Its really simple. Join a masters, swim 20k+ a week pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and listen to any comments from the coach on deck and make necessary adjustments as needed during the sessions. Day in day out. You'll get faster.

__________________________________________________
Follow my blog - Follow me on Twitter - Facebook Page
Powered by Accelerate3

Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TravisT wrote:
Its really simple. Join a masters, swim 20k+ a week pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and listen to any comments from the coach on deck and make necessary adjustments as needed during the sessions. Day in day out. You'll get faster.

Agreed. But that isn't the same as saying "Fitness improves technique." In the example above, you have a coach giving you comments on your technique, in addition to substantially increasing your volume. The two go hand in hand. If I get in the pool and just splash around for 20K a week by myself, that doesn't mean I am going to improve my technique, does it?

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It is interesting that you, of all people, would buy into this. A perfect analogy to the swimming dilemma is a cyclist who thinks more training and a "bigger engine" is what it takes to overcome crappy aerodynamics of your equipment or position. Sure, a bigger engine will help. But someone with less fitness and a smaller engine can still come and kick your ass if they know exactly what they are doing with regard to proper positioning and proper bike equip.

In the end, of course, both are important, fitness and technique. But just more fitness won't get you the technique improvements you need. Nor will drills, nor will 99% of swim toys.

Advanced Top Tube Aero Bento Packs for Road, Gravel, & Triathlon....Direct bolt-mount and ZeroSlip low-profile strap-mount Speedpacks, all designed and made in the USA........DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Instagram.....Facebook
"Why would you want to be the last man alive on a sinking ship?" -- why Tesla shares its patents with competitors.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Power13 wrote:
TravisT wrote:
Its really simple. Join a masters, swim 20k+ a week pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and listen to any comments from the coach on deck and make necessary adjustments as needed during the sessions. Day in day out. You'll get faster.


Agreed. But that isn't the same as saying "Fitness improves technique." In the example above, you have a coach giving you comments on your technique, in addition to substantially increasing your volume. The two go hand in hand. If I get in the pool and just splash around for 20K a week by myself, that doesn't mean I am going to improve my technique, does it?

You sure talk a lot for someone that is doing 2min/100m.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hard work is the only way for most of us who didn't grow up swimming. It took me months of swimming up to 8000 on some days to drop my times down ten seconds per 100. I'm still not a natural swimmer, but I'm relatively fast for a non-swimmer triathlete. And not all of that was intensity. A lot of it was purely aerobic work in Zones 2 and 3. If you look at what some top distance swimming coaches are recommending for beginning distance swimmers, it is for them to swim 4-5k per main set with technique and sprint work supplementing the swimming. Why, because the philosophy is that moderately intense aerobic work improves fitness while smoothing out technique and developing the endurance needed to swim fast at comfortable RPE. Once that base is established, hard work must be incorporated to hone in on pacing. Why don't some people on this forum go read something written by the best coaches in the world?
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree I just think the focus should be on the hard work and volume over just drilling technique. The paddles/bouy/band combo really do help force good form and allow you to work much harder while improving technique at the same time rather then just countless drills. For me it comes down to what my goals are. I'm not a pure swimmer competeting in a pool. I'm racing triathlon in open water where perfect form is sometimes difficult to maintain so fitness and a big engine are going to serve me better then having a perfect glide.

__________________________________________________
Follow my blog - Follow me on Twitter - Facebook Page
Powered by Accelerate3

Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The Authority wrote:
Power13 wrote:
TravisT wrote:
Its really simple. Join a masters, swim 20k+ a week pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and listen to any comments from the coach on deck and make necessary adjustments as needed during the sessions. Day in day out. You'll get faster.


Agreed. But that isn't the same as saying "Fitness improves technique." In the example above, you have a coach giving you comments on your technique, in addition to substantially increasing your volume. The two go hand in hand. If I get in the pool and just splash around for 20K a week by myself, that doesn't mean I am going to improve my technique, does it?


You sure talk a lot for someone that is doing 2min/100m.

What talking? I'm asking questions......All I'm doing is trying to understand different training philosophies so I can improve.

Concraps....your d*ck is bigger than mine. You win!! Feel better now?

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think it's interesting that every time someone gives advice like this, everyone assumes that the prescription is simply "volume." It isn't. It's APPROPRIATE volume.

And yes, to reference Sentania, there is some basic level of ability that is required. I.e., if your best 100m for time is, let's say, slower than 2:00/100yds, then you simply need to learn how to swim. In other words, if you really, fundamentally, cannot swim, then - duh - don't get in and try and bang out big volume. Get some basic swim instruction. There's a difference between fundamentals and "technique work." If you truly lack the fundamentals then you need them.

I'll explain, simply, for the people who fail to grasp the nuances by way of example.

If you are able to swim 200yds at a speed that you would be VERY happy being able to swim for 2000yds, the way to get there is NOT by doing drills. It is by working on your fitness. Most often, the "technique problems" that occur going from 200->2000 are that people lack the fitness to hold their stroke together. So in that sense, as you work on fitness, you work on technique, because you limit how much your stroke breaks down.

Simply put, the ability of people to simply *maintain* their stroke - a lack of fitness - is a MUCH more significant limiter than any dramatic technique flaw. Even at the highest level, triathlon swimming is not particular fast. For example, an hour swim for Ironman is pretty fast. An hour swim for 3800m means you are going more than 50% slower than the speed of a world class OW swimmer. Think about that.

Ironically, no one seems to miss this connection with running. Very few people waste as much time doing running drills as they do with swimming drills. Nobody - well, very few people - think that drills are the key to a ~3hr Ironman marathon (also 50% slower than elite level). But plenty of people seem to think they can drill their way to a ~1hr IM swim...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Last edited by: Rappstar: Dec 28, 11 9:37
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TravisT wrote:
I agree I just think the focus should be on the hard work and volume over just drilling technique. The paddles/bouy/band combo really do help force good form and allow you to work much harder while improving technique at the same time rather then just countless drills. For me it comes down to what my goals are. I'm not a pure swimmer competeting in a pool. I'm racing triathlon in open water where perfect form is sometimes difficult to maintain so fitness and a big engine are going to serve me better then having a perfect glide.

OK, I see where you are coming from...so would this be a fair synopsis? By using various tools when swimming (paddles, buoys, etc) you can train both endurance / fitness AND technique?

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
It's that time of year - or it should be - when chlorine substitutes for cologne. You should reek of it. Paulo Sousa tweeted an excellent summary on the matter. It's rare that you find really, really good summations in 140chrs or less. This was one, so I felt compelled to share it.

"Technique goes a long way in swimming, but it's nothing without fitness. Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true."

Translated since everyone seems to think that it's a statement about only learning better technique.

You can have perfect technique, but if your fitness sucks, you will fall apart after a few hundred meters due to fatigue. The better your fitness is, the easier it is to work on the technique and improve it. So, enhancing your fitness enhances your ability to work on your technique. The opposite is not necessarily true. So, even if your technique is horrible, get to the point where you can swim adequately enough that you are not fighting the fatigue at the same time you are fighting the learning curve of getting better technique.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're not fooling me.

Eganski tweets
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Power13 wrote:
TravisT wrote:
I agree I just think the focus should be on the hard work and volume over just drilling technique. The paddles/bouy/band combo really do help force good form and allow you to work much harder while improving technique at the same time rather then just countless drills. For me it comes down to what my goals are. I'm not a pure swimmer competeting in a pool. I'm racing triathlon in open water where perfect form is sometimes difficult to maintain so fitness and a big engine are going to serve me better then having a perfect glide.


OK, I see where you are coming from...so would this be a fair synopsis? By using various tools when swimming (paddles, buoys, etc) you can train both endurance / fitness AND technique?

The best synopsis would be to read what Rappstar just wrote. Pretty much sums it up.

__________________________________________________
Follow my blog - Follow me on Twitter - Facebook Page
Powered by Accelerate3

Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Actually, golf does have an analogy to swimming. In this case, it would be this:

imagine a golfer whose game is suffering because he tends to miss a lot of putts and slice a lot of drives whenever he walks 18 instead of taking the cart. The suggestion, according to most people here, is that he ought to spend a lot of time focusing on his technique to really hone in his swing so it is absolutely ingrained and doesn't abandon him.

The more obvious - and correct - prescription is to get said gentleman to get his fat ass off the couch, maybe hit the treadmill, spend less time at the 19th hole, etc. What's funny is that this isn't just a hypothetical. This is exactly what happened when Tiger Woods started kicking the shit out of everyone. Golfers started to realize that fitness was an important part of the game. They couldn't simply finesse their way to longer drives and lower scores. They needed to be fitter. And, in that exact same scenario, working on fitness worked on their technique, because on the fourth day of tournament play, they were driving just as far, their strokes were just as solid, etc.

Where the analogy starts to break down is that - for AG golfers - taking ~100 swings once a week, fatigue isn't likely to be a major issue. For the typical AG swimmer, the fatigue difference between swimming 50yds and 5000yds is massive.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
the fatigue difference between swimming 50yds and 5000yds is massive

Speaking from recent experience, the fatigue difference between 3000 yds and 5000 yds is massive, the difference 50 and 5000 is just plain rediculous.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
I think it's interesting that every time someone gives advice like this, everyone assumes that the prescription is simply "volume." It isn't. It's APPROPRIATE volume.

And yes, to reference Sentania, there is some basic level of ability that is required. I.e., if your best 100m for time is, let's say, slower than 2:00/100yds, then you simply need to learn how to swim. In other words, if you really, fundamentally, cannot swim, then - duh - don't get in and try and bang out big volume. Get some basic swim instruction. There's a difference between fundamentals and "technique work." If you truly lack the fundamentals then you need them.

I'll explain, simply, for the people who fail to grasp the nuances by way of example.

If you are able to swim 200yds at a speed that you would be VERY happy being able to swim for 2000yds, the way to get there is NOT by doing drills. It is by working on your fitness. Most often, the "technique problems" that occur going from 200->2000 are that people lack the fitness to hold their stroke together. So in that sense, as you work on fitness, you work on technique, because you limit how much your stroke breaks down.

Simply put, the ability of people to simply *maintain* their stroke - a lack of fitness - is a MUCH more significant limiter than any dramatic technique flaw. Even at the highest level, triathlon swimming is not particular fast. For example, an hour swim for Ironman is pretty fast. An hour swim for 3800m means you are going more than 50% slower than the speed of a world class OW swimmer. Think about that.

Ironically, no one seems to miss this connection with running. Very few people waste as much time doing running drills as they do with swimming drills. Nobody - well, very few people - think that drills are the key to a ~3hr Ironman marathon (also 50% slower than elite level). But plenty of people seem to think they can drill their way to a ~1hr IM swim...

This is becoming highly muddled.

What you are saying above is that if you want to swim faster for longer (i.e., get more endurance) you need to swim more?
Well, of course, yes.

But that, even if you swim faster than 2 min per 100, that swimming more yards per week will alone improve your technique?
Nope. Or, if yes, not by any significant amount.

Advanced Top Tube Aero Bento Packs for Road, Gravel, & Triathlon....Direct bolt-mount and ZeroSlip low-profile strap-mount Speedpacks, all designed and made in the USA........DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Instagram.....Facebook
"Why would you want to be the last man alive on a sinking ship?" -- why Tesla shares its patents with competitors.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
swimming at all seems like a very bad idea. wouldnt it be better to work on the portion of triathlon that youre the worst at whether that be s/b/r or weight loss?
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agree with challenging this. Going to the pool and getting in 'junk miles' won't necessarily improve technique IMO. Individuals looking to improve in the pool need to aggressively pursue both.

-------
http://www.y-rocket.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
doing endless drills doesnt help technique.

focusing on one aspect of the stroke for over a hundred thousand yards > every drill ive ever seen a triathlete do.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
It's that time of year - or it should be - when chlorine substitutes for cologne. You should reek of it. Paulo Sousa tweeted an excellent summary on the matter. It's rare that you find really, really good summations in 140chrs or less. This was one, so I felt compelled to share it. "Technique goes a long way in swimming, but it's nothing without fitness. Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true."


"Working on your fitness works on technique."
Uh, not really. Actually, it is false.

Just swimming more is definitely not going to have very much of an impact on improving technique. Actually, it can (and often does) have exactly the opposite effect. Just "working on your (swim) fitness" alone readily reinforces bad technique, as you will be repeatedly practicing (1000s and 1000s of times) incorrect and inefficient movement.

It does. And here's why. Sometimes it's only when you become exhausted that you find the maximum efficiency. You may be one of those people with very poor body awareness and a very inactive subconscious who cannot improve through tens of thousands of repetitions. But most people do. I'm sure it's highly variable though from person to person based on factors unseen (wiring in the brain I guess).

Through mass volume I've improved running mechanics, my cycling pedal stroke, my power and speed in martial arts techniques and I'm pretty sure the same will be true regarding swimming as I put in the time.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To answer an earlier question, Paulo really doesn't tweet helpful stuff. 99% of his posts are Lavendar Room material. One of my to-do's is to declutter my Twitter feed, and his is one that's getting the axe.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'll add another name to this argument....Gerry Rodrigues

I had a private lesson with Gerry about 3-4 months ago. I was expecting to get all this technical info on what I was doing wrong and how I could magically drop 10 secs/100 by improving my horrible technique.....(it's not that bad but you get the gist of what I was looking for.)

My advice after an hour of 1 on 1..."yup, you're good enough...just go swim lots"

Sure he identified some problems here and there....but the basic takeaway was just go swim.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
I'll explain, simply, for the people who fail to grasp the nuances by way of example.

If you are able to swim 200yds at a speed that you would be VERY happy being able to swim for 2000yds, the way to get there is NOT by doing drills. It is by working on your fitness. Most often, the "technique problems" that occur going from 200->2000 are that people lack the fitness to hold their stroke together. So in that sense, as you work on fitness, you work on technique, because you limit how much your stroke breaks down.

Simply put, the ability of people to simply *maintain* their stroke - a lack of fitness - is a MUCH more significant limiter than any dramatic technique flaw. Even at the highest level, triathlon swimming is not particular fast. For example, an hour swim for Ironman is pretty fast. An hour swim for 3800m means you are going more than 50% slower than the speed of a world class OW swimmer. Think about that.

Ironically, no one seems to miss this connection with running. Very few people waste as much time doing running drills as they do with swimming drills. Nobody - well, very few people - think that drills are the key to a ~3hr Ironman marathon (also 50% slower than elite level). But plenty of people seem to think they can drill their way to a ~1hr IM swim...

Please keep your comments to 140 characters or less.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I love it how people enjoy arguing about stuff like this. Analyze it, dissect it, debate it anyway you want to, but Paulo is absolutely accurate in his tweet. 100% on the spot.

RP
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The Authority wrote:
You sure talk a lot for someone that is doing 2min/100m.
ST would have about 10 posts per day if people who didn't know anything or were slow, stopped posting.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I doesn't seem like you actually read the Brett Sutton blog. He's saying that most adult swimmers either don't swim enough or are already unable to truly adapt the technique changes that drills encourage. By utilizing paddles and a pull buoy you are forced to make these adaptations. Ie- you can get in and hammer away for an hour and get a lot more out of it than just working on technique (which you may or may not be doing correctly in the first place).
I know my problem in races is that my form erodes as the swim gets longer.

____________________________________________________
Check out my blog
http://www.ironscottallen.blogspot.com
Quote Reply

Prev Next