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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Lastly, someone who is a 2:00/100m swimmer is a really shitty swimmer.

Mmm....no, not really. I consider 2:00/100m to be the breaking point. As a general thing, I've found that if you can consistently go at a 2/1 pace, it's more a volume and type of workout thing than it is a form issue. I.e., you need to be swimming more and harder. Anything over the 2/1 line, and there are probably some stroke flaws that are holding the swimmer back.

Now, if the mentioned swimmer is doing 15-20k per week with intervals, threshold and really putting in effort and still around 2/1 then yeah, there are probably some stroke issues.

Note: This is for AOS (Adult onset swimmers). Former swimmers are generally not on the curve. I was a decent, not great swimmer, and I can still get in the water and do 100's on 1:40, 20 secs rest when I'm way out of swimming shape. The better the swimmer was, the better that time will be.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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The real point of swimming is not really, IMO, to become faster, though that is a nice side benefit. It's to have the swim tire you out less. And "technique/drill" does nothing for that.

BINGO!

I think we have officially gone around in a circle, because I mentioned this before. Ounce you get past, oh, about 1:15'ish in the swim, you are starting to see a lot of swimmers coming out of the water in an IM and even a half IM, absolutely hammered. They are literally staggering out of the water. Faces are drawn. The look really tired. Many take a very long time in transition and then when they try and get on their bikes, it appears that they can barely get on the bike. And now they are headed out for a 112 mile bike ride?? Clearly the swim is exacted a very heavy toll on more than a few people. Swimming more and being a better swimmer may not necessarily make you faster in the water, although it's a nice side benefit as Jordan alludes to, but it will take much less energy, it will sap much less of your stored energy resources, you should be able to because of this all things considered equal, cycle and run faster!

Get out of the silos of swim/bike/run and think more about the continuum and the overall fitness required to be a great triathlete who puts all three together well.

At the risk of dredging up the old-days, back in the early days of the sport we raced a lot - like every weekend!! Thus we put swim/bike/run together a lot - before we even knew what a Brick was!!!. I don't see this so much in training today - people swim, they bike and they run all separately and people don't race very much tending to focus all their efforts on maybe one key race a year. I am not surprised to see so many completely overwhelmed by what they have to contend with on IM race day!







Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Dec 30, 11 8:26
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [rhys] [ In reply to ]
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I'm loving this thread!

Keeps me entertained and gives me more to think about.

Plus it's a nice change from always reading about bike training.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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There's a lot to be said for just thinking about what you're doing, WHILE swimming normally. Specific drill sets don't need to be a focus if you're only swimming 10k per week....unless, like was mentioned earlier, you're really just a very bad swimmer and are flailing your way down the lane.

Focus on one aspect of your stroke until it feels right. Even just focus on one arm at a time. Like: 'OK, I'm going to make sure my right arm has an amazing catch and I don't care what my left arm is doing.' Do that for a week, then go to left arm. Eventually you can bring em together...all the while working on your fitness as well.

When I'm on my own I pull out a camera every few months to watch all my flaws (many). This past month I've hopefully corrected a few of them simply by doing what I just mentioned. Works for me anyway. Not that I'm an awesome swimmer, but I've progressed from a complete non-swimmer at 24yrs old, to being near the front of the Elite field on a good day. Always looking for ways to swim with the best guys.

That said, a drill or two during warm can't hurt just to get some proper muscles firing.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
.

Lastly, someone who is a 2:00/100m swimmer is a really shitty swimmer.

Yer.....I also kick puppies and knock over old ladies in the street!!

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
.

Lastly, someone who is a 2:00/100m swimmer is a really shitty swimmer.
Yer.....I also kick puppies and knock over old ladies in the street!!


Admitting you have a problem is the first step :)

Hi, my name is Cathy. I'm a really shitty swimmer.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [adal] [ In reply to ]
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adal wrote:
Rich Strauss wrote:
... does the math on the time investment required to go from 1:15 to 1:10

--


All that sells very well and sounds right in theory. But when the gun goes off, your 1:15 swimmer does not loose 5 minutes, but 5 minutes on the swim, 10 on the bike and 20 on the run (due to a lack of swim fitness).

Send a seasoned triathlete, a 9hr guy, on an hour of cross country skating or rowing with 3mmol and see the cycling and run performance. It goes way down, because the athlete cannot recover from the activity he is not fit for.

You can do the test with a few clients (cycling trained but not skating or rowing trained but with enough technical proficiency to acutally be able to work at threshould in skating or rowing):

-) Bike an hour at TH (HR 165, Watts 280) - run 1/2 an hour at 150 hr
-) Skate or row an Hour at TH (HR 175 as a full body sport gives a higher heart rate) - run 1/2 an hour at 150 hr

If the second run is much slower (which it is for me), or feels much harder (which it does for me), the whole theory of "economics of swimming" goes the way of all economic model ...


Whaa? Not sure how skating and rowing got into this discussion :-)

As for the effect on the bike and run of a lack of swim fitness...in my experience a lack of race execution skills is much more responsible. That is, doode has a shitty bike and run because he doesn't know how to execute the race, but is culturally conditioned to think this is a training issue so spends the next several weeks on ST reading what he wants to hear: he needs to SBR more because that's what he likes to do anyway.

But that's a whole 'nother topic(s) for discussion.

I can only say what we do with our team:
  • We strongly encourage our athletes to seek the help of a qualified, local technique coach. If they don't have one available, we encourage them to use our "swim clinic ebook" I created in 2005, revised in '08. You can download a free copy here if you want to check it out.
  • Our "beginner" swimmers do about 8wks of pretty much all drill work. Intermediate about 4wks. Advanced about 2wks.
  • Then all of them do about 12-14wks of legit fitness swimming. I put on my NCAA D3 swim cap when I wrote these workouts: hard, fast swimming, short rest...I kick their ass, frankly. If these folks are doing an HIM in route to an IM, then they'll do MUCH more than this 12-14wks of hard swimming in their season, but only after a dedicated period of technique focus.

What I don't do is say "your tool to becoming a faster swimmer is to go hit 10,000 golf balls/tennis balls, bang on the piano keys for hours and hours," which is essentially Paulo's advice in 140 characters :-) I'm assuming he has more detail to add somewhere.

My bottomline: we've all seen "bad swimming." Just like pjorn, we know it when we see it. Advising that person to just HTFU and swim lots is exactly the same as my 10k ball example above.

--

Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Last edited by: Rich Strauss: Dec 30, 11 9:40
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [T-Wurt] [ In reply to ]
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Visualising a strong catch while I'm swimming, literally results in a ~2 sec/hundred improvement for me.

Until I swim in to my lane partner(s) because I'm not paying attention to where I'm swimming.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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I am world champion at bouncing off the bottom. Watch some time during a kick set, ill just ping pong along the bottom of the pool occassionally coming up for air.

I wonder if i should create another account, seems im not allowed to talk as a coach and blather endlessly as an athlete from the same handle.

___________________________________________________________________________
Twitter: @MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14 - 3 Kona Podiums - 2 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 17 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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"it's the economy stupid"

___________________________________________________________________________
Twitter: @MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14 - 3 Kona Podiums - 2 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 17 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Andy got banned and phil is working on his phd. There really isnt too much intellectual stimuli floating about anymore so what can we do?

:)

___________________________________________________________________________
Twitter: @MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14 - 3 Kona Podiums - 2 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 17 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [BeachboyWI] [ In reply to ]
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Paddles are AWESOME, never forget this. :)

I like having multiple various sized pairs for differing levels of resistance.

___________________________________________________________________________
Twitter: @MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14 - 3 Kona Podiums - 2 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 17 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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But but but..... At the skate ranch they have a biathlon range and it's soooooooo cool!!!!

___________________________________________________________________________
Twitter: @MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14 - 3 Kona Podiums - 2 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 17 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
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I guess Paulo is saying that you could take out the drill time, add that time to your swim conditioning time, and your club members would do better.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
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Rich Strauss wrote:

My bottomline: we've all seen "bad swimming." Just like pjorn, we know it when we see it. Advising that person to just HTFU and swim lots is exactly the same as my 10k ball example above.

--

Actually, it's not at all the same. The exact same analogy was given much earlier in this thread (I forgive you for not reading it though). Your golf ball suggestion is simply an advocation for practicing shitty technique.

The point of Paulo's (and Brett's) advice is NOT just to HTFU and swim lots. It is to HTFU and swim *MORE* while also *USING TOOLS THAT FORCIBLY CORRECT YOUR TECHNIQUE.* There isn't really a direct analogy to golf or piano, because there aren't (that I know) any tools that are as effective for golf as paddles/PB/band are for swimming, largely because you don't hit several thousand drives during a golf game (even if you are really bad...). The fitness requirements of repeatedly swinging a golf club are just not that large. Likewise piano.

Furthermore, in addition to swimming with tools that forcibly correct your technique, the advice is not to swim X amount. Paulo is a good coach, and like all good coaches, he advocates an APPROPRIATE amount of volume. In other words, it's not about hitting 10,000 golf balls. It's simply about hitting MORE golf balls. Fitness is a massively important element of swimming. Swimming more will improve your fitness. Ergo, one of the surest ways to improve as a swimmer is simply to swim more. This follows from my previous tweet that MANY people are able to swim for 200m (I say 200 because it's long enough that you can't just "fake it" and sprint the whole way, unlike, say, a 50) at a pace that they'd be VERY happy with for 2000m. So it's not like their stroke is bad. It just BECOMES bad when they get tired. Fitness is the limiter.

So, to reiterate:
- it's not about swimming 10k/20k/etc. It's simply about an emphasis on hard work over "technique work." Some people don't need to spend any more time in the pool; they just need to use the time they already spend in the pool more productively by emphasizing fitness-focused sets. Swim harder, farther, faster, whatever. Focus on getter fitter, not "prettier."

- furthermore, it's also not just about swimming hard. There is also the use of the tools to make that hard swimming even more productive. Band/paddles/pull-buoy/etc. all are what Paulo and Joel (and maybe others) call "brute force" tools. If you want to actually make it across the pool with banded ankles, you need to hold the water. Likewise, paddles are great for putting your hand in a proper position and helping you hold the water. Pull buoys help correct and establish body position. You can waste time drilling. OR you can simultaneously work on your fitness AND your technique. This is more of what Sutton was saying than what Paulo was alluding to in his tweet, but it's part of the same overall message.

The contents of Paulo's tweet is not that hard to grasp. And it's nothing like that analogies you have presented.

Based on what you wrote, you clearly recognize the value of hard swimming. I'd wager that you wouldn't see any drop off - and you'd actually see improvement - if you simply replaced your "technique dedicated" periods with longer periods of hard swimming. Of course, the training needs to be appropriate to the skill level of the individual. Shorter sets - both in overall duration and in terms of intervals (50s and 100s instead of 200s and 400s and 800s), of course, but 8 weeks of "all drill work" for a beginner is less helpful than 8 weeks of hard (but appropriate) swimming. That's all Paulo is saying.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
while also *USING TOOLS THAT FORCIBLY CORRECT YOUR TECHNIQUE.* There isn't really a direct analogy to golf

Medicus ;)

I'm kidding, I'm kidding.......


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
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Rich Strauss wrote:
What I don't do is say "your tool to becoming a faster swimmer is to go hit 10,000 golf balls/tennis balls, bang on the piano keys for hours and hours," which is essentially Paulo's advice in 140 characters.
--

That just tells me that you're so dumb that you can't understand the meaning of 140 characters or you're intentionally misinterpreting it in order to serve your interests.

So the choices are, you're either dumb or dishonest. Which one is it, "coach"?
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
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Rich Strauss wrote:
  • We strongly encourage our athletes to seek the help of a qualified, local technique coach. If they don't have one available, we encourage them to use our "swim clinic ebook" I created in 2005, revised in '08. You can download a free copy here if you want to check it out.
  • Our "beginner" swimmers do about 8wks of pretty much all drill work. Intermediate about 4wks. Advanced about 2wks.
  • Then all of them do about 12-14wks of legit fitness swimming. I put on my NCAA D3 swim cap when I wrote these workouts: hard, fast swimming, short rest...I kick their ass, frankly. If these folks are doing an HIM in route to an IM, then they'll do MUCH more than this 12-14wks of hard swimming in their season, but only after a dedicated period of technique focus.

Aside from the efficacy of learning a difficult technique sport from a book (Even one with embedded videos), in the 8 weeks of drill work, how much yardage are they doing in a session? I looked at your e-book, and you've got sets in the 2500-3200 range for your beginner category. If they don't have the fitness to do that much swimming, what use are the drills at the end of the workout? There has to be a minimum level of fitness available to effectively work on technique. Especially at the distances you are prescribing in your ebook.

If you insist on using your golf analogy, figure an average round has 100 strokes, and if you are truly just practicing you'll go through 3-4 buckets of 100 balls each on the range. If you don't have the fitness available to swing the club more than 60-70 times, you need to build up that fitness to where you CAN hit 3-400 balls in a session.

That's what the tweet is saying. Before you can work on the refinements, you have to have the basic ability/fitness to complete the distance first. If you have a swimmer that can't swim more than 600m, anything beyond that for "drill" work is an absolute waste.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
of course, but 8 weeks of "all drill work" for a beginner is less helpful than 8 weeks of hard (but appropriate) swimming. That's all Paulo is saying.

Not directed at you Jordan but there is a fallacy about doing drills. people seem to think drilling = stroke improvement.

If someone is going to spend that much time drilling, what they should really do is hire a coach to sit on top of them every freaking length they swim, completely rip their stroke apart and put it back together.

But most triathletes don't have that luxury, or they won't take that time to do it.

I went from 29:00 1500m to 23:00 1500m guys in 2 weeks. I've seen other gains like it as well in other people. Sure I/they gained a bit of fitness, but 99% of that was technical improvement. Going from 23;00 to an 18min 1500m person is the fitness aspect. You need both.

What most triathletes seem to do, and this comes from watching them swim in multiple cities, watching them swim at multiple races, reading multiple coach's swim workouts (and I use workouts loosely) and skimming some binder type books, most triathletes do the prescribed drill without knowing why, what it's doing, what is't supposed to do.

If they're going to do that, then they should just go with paddles, bands buoys and force change upon themselves while gaining fitness. It's not an either or, it's a spectrum of both.

All this has probably been said but I didn't bother to read all the posts.

Brian Stover
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Last edited by: desert dude: Dec 30, 11 11:58
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I've been following all of these swimming threads for days then this:

MANY people are able to swim for 200m (I say 200 because it's long enough that you can't just "fake it" and sprint the whole way, unlike, say, a 50) at a pace that they'd be VERY happy with for 2000m. So it's not like their stroke is bad. It just BECOMES bad when they get tired. Fitness is the limiter.

Which is the best I have read on this and what I have thought myself anyway. I can swim a 200 and go pretty bloody good, feel like I am Ian Thopre, third one of these with limited rest my stroke is crap but I'm tired. Convince myself that the technique is bad (which it is) so must correct technique, not fittness, which is wrong.

Now final thing, if my stroke breaks down say at third 200 on a given interval am I better off taking more rest in the form of a longer interval or say doing 3 200's on 3:30 and then doing 100 of say recovery say just some other stroke and then doing this 3 200's plus 100 recovery 5 times?
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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But that doesn't somehow mean that really shitty swimmers make good coaches. That's about as bizarre a logical fallacy as I've seen on this forum - really good swimmers make shitty coaches, ergo really shitty swimmers make good coaches? Seriously?


I agree completely with your statement. However, I was not attempting to imply or make the jump that really shitty swimmers make really good coaches. I was pointing out that really shitty swimmers *can* make really good coaches, and their swim times should not be used as a parameter to discount their opinion. In one sentence, Paulo...I mean, The Authority, implies that someone else should not offer their insight because they are 2 min swimmer, and then in the next statement says very accomplished swimmers make terrible coaches for adults. For all I know the 2 min/100m swimmer is a terrible coach (and I would not say I agree with what they contributed), but I am not going to discount his insight because of his swim times. Hell, his times are probably better then Brett and a number of other elite coaches......this can be applied across all elite coaches in any sport.

But to answer your question, no, I do not believe that because really good swimmer make shitty coaches, that shitty swimmers make good coaches. However, there is a reason for the old phrase, those who can, do - those who cant, teach.







Last edited by: songmak: Dec 30, 11 15:56
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [songmak] [ In reply to ]
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songmak wrote:
Quote:
But that doesn't somehow mean that really shitty swimmers make good coaches. That's about as bizarre a logical fallacy as I've seen on this forum - really good swimmers make shitty coaches, ergo really shitty swimmers make good coaches? Seriously?


I agree completely with your statement. However, I was not attempting to imply or make the jump that really shitty swimmers make really good coaches. I was pointing out that really shitty swimmers *can* make really good coaches, and their swim times should not be used as a parameter to discount their opinion. In one sentence, Paulo...I mean, The Authority, implies that someone else should not offer their insight because they are 2 min swimmer, and then in the next statement says very accomplished swimmers make terrible coaches for adults. For all I know the 2 min/100m swimmer is a terrible coach (and I would not say I agree with what they contributed), but I am not going to discount his insight because of his swim times. Hell, his times are probably better then Brett and a number of other elite athletes......this can be applied across all elite coaches in any sport.

But to answer your question, no, I do not believe that because really good swimmer make shitty coaches, that shitty swimmers make good coaches. However, there is a reason for the old phrase, those who can, do - those who cant, teach.







Ah, gotcha. But they are not really two sides of the same coin. There are certain necessities in almost all cases in order to become an elite swimmer. Or, really, to become elite in any sport where technical proficiency is extremely important. Though it's probably *generally* true when speaking about elite athletes in general, even sports where technique is not so overwhelming (say, cycling). Elite athletes, as a rule (and obviously there are notable exceptions), don't tend to make great coaches in the sport in which they excelled.

On the flip side, it's certainly not a necessity that someone be even remotely proficient at a given sport to be an elite coach. Brett Sutton, Bela Karolyi, Gil Reyes, and countless others. So I agree, you cannot - or, rather, should not - discount someone's technical proficiency as a function of their performance. HOWEVER, that applies *only* IMO opinion when someone offers some other metric by which to judge themselves. I.e., Bela Karolyi can say, "don't worry about how I mount the balance beam; worry about how the umpteen Olympians who I have taught mount it..." In other words, if you are giving advice as a coach, then you should be judged on your merits as a coach, not as an athlete. BUT, if you are not a coach, and you are an athlete, then it's fair - I think - to judge you on your proficiency as an athlete. In other words, if someone says, "I'm just learning to swim; I swim 2:00/100m; and this is what I think about how to learn/improve/etc. at swimming," then it's certainly fair to point out that they probably are putting the cart just a wee bit in front of the horse...

No, being a 2:00/100m swimmer doesn't automatically mean that you don't know anything. But in the context of this discussion, it absolutely meant that...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kennyDalglish] [ In reply to ]
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kennyDalglish wrote:
I've been following all of these swimming threads for days then this:

MANY people are able to swim for 200m (I say 200 because it's long enough that you can't just "fake it" and sprint the whole way, unlike, say, a 50) at a pace that they'd be VERY happy with for 2000m. So it's not like their stroke is bad. It just BECOMES bad when they get tired. Fitness is the limiter.

Which is the best I have read on this and what I have thought myself anyway. I can swim a 200 and go pretty bloody good, feel like I am Ian Thopre, third one of these with limited rest my stroke is crap but I'm tired. Convince myself that the technique is bad (which it is) so must correct technique, not fittness, which is wrong.

Now final thing, if my stroke breaks down say at third 200 on a given interval am I better off taking more rest in the form of a longer interval or say doing 3 200's on 3:30 and then doing 100 of say recovery say just some other stroke and then doing this 3 200's plus 100 recovery 5 times?

I don't think it's an either/or.

Sometimes, it's important to do stuff with short rest. That's part of how you become aware of the flaws and problems in your strokes. And it gives you something so you can say, "okay, I really need to focus on - in my case - finishing the stroke when I get tired."

Likewise, sometimes, it's important to take a lot of rest so that you are maximizing your quality on every single rep. There's no "right" answer to your question. Different sets with different aims. You should do both. And know why you are doing each.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [songmak] [ In reply to ]
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To:.......Paulo...I mean, The Authority, .....................................Is Paulo now the Authority?..Noticed new sign up, but new name not linked................................He did that though when he changed from smartasscoach too.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
if someone says, "I'm just learning to swim; I swim 2:00/100m; and this is what I think about how to learn/improve/etc. at swimming," then it's certainly fair to point out that they probably are putting the cart just a wee bit in front of the horse...

No, being a 2:00/100m swimmer doesn't automatically mean that you don't know anything. But in the context of this discussion, it absolutely meant that...

Someone please let me know where I said anything like that....I was simply asking for explanations and trying to draw parallels.

My bad.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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