Does he usually make excuses? I always thought he was fairly fair with his assessment and kudos to those giving him the "ass kicking".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hahaha u beat me to the punch.
I wonder if they'll be 20 threads about him now. But remember he's got it totally figured out doesn't need a coach he's just the best athlete ever.

Someone who leads a WC with 3 miles left "has a prayer" to come in first.

Has he ever come out of a poor performance claiming that someone cheated?

This post just sounds like a personal issue with the guy...

Salty!

Definitely wasn’t his day. But even if he’d have been firing on all cylinders he wouldn’t have been able to win given the calm conditions today anyways. If he’d have gotten off the bike with Wurf, he wasn’t going to run within 6 minutes of Lange.

I find his fan club on here as nauseating as the next man, but before the race is even over?

This is cruel!

I don't understand the fetishism, either pro or anti.

You must be a big fan of letsrun.com...

I find the Brownlee fanboys more nauseating ;)

Well, he was a complete non factor. Not even in the hunt. Goes home devastated.


My bet is that Lionel will show far more class than those like you who are celebrating his losing.

My thoughts exactly. Some folks really like him, so that makes somebody happy when he doesn’t have a great day? Tough for me to comprehend that kind of mindset.

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

lionel is part of the most interesting race right now...
Can he get home infront of Ryf? Can ryf actually catch him on the road?

Im not sure its a done deal that he gets across the line in less time than ryf.

It's not Sanders. It's his fans and the fifty threads that they have going at any point in time.

It's like Steelers fans. They just go full retard.

You are a deadset wanker mate. Sanders is an interesting character and thank god he isn’t a cookie cutter boring no personality type. But the one thing he never does is make excuses , and he praises his competition with humility.

How salty are you!

There's really no reason to pile on Lionel like some of you have (and will). I think his race was an anomaly last year but he did almost win. So he deserves whatever props and he's a freak of nature. His race tactics just aren't there, along with not being able to make up the swim weakness compared to others. Now it seems his bike and run weapon aren't a weapon at least at Kona.

I do worry this is going to cause him to make more irrational training, nutritional, coaching, etc. changes.

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

This x Avagadro’s number

Brownlee needs to use his winnings to see a dentist

6.02 x 10^23

All I remember from HS chemistry beyond "Hot glass looks just like cold glass!"

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

This place won't change next year, pre Kona will be full of threads about Sanders all the talk will be about Wurf, Kienle and Frodo when only one of them will have podiumed in the last two years!

1:10 of this video....duh? Need a coach much??

LS has nothing to be ashamed about. He puts it all on the line, and the cards fall where they fall.

I do wonder, however, if today's result was more about him underperforming, as opposed to the rest of the field get much faster/tactical at key moments (like the swim) for which he's less suited for. Today's race seemed like the tactically worst outcome for LS - falling behind a sizeable first pack with 2 superbikers in it to tow the field ahead so he can't make up enough ground on the bike.

It better cause him to freak out. He's getting left behind. Anyone that far back out of the water was an complete after thought today.

It looks like he had a worse than normal swim, but at the same time, that's going to be his issue forever now. You just cant have a major weakness such as his, especially in the "draft" friendly capabilities that I think the front group is showing more and more.


LS needs the worst of worst conditions, and today was the complete opposite, they said what the best conditions ever in what 30+ years.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I’d bet when he reflects on his erratic training that he does need to hand it over to a coach. If he is honest with himself it’s the only logical thing he can now try.

So sad. 26th in the men’s race and he can’t even manage to win the women’s race. The most overrated athlete in triathlon shows how mediocre he really is

& little love for the 3 Americans in the top 10. Russell’s day was pretty inspirational.

This.

Plus he needs a coach and some direction that he sticks with. He went for the Frodeno 2% bodyfat and fell apart like Frodeno.

You just hurt Dev's feelings.

8:26 is mediocre?

I get being annoyed by over zealous fans but rejoicing in the failure or misfortune of someone really makes you a total dick.

No one should be surprised at all. No. One. This is what happens when a person shaves off his power mustache. You just don’t do what he did.

Lol

It is when the winner goes sub 8:00

Seems he knew exactly where he was and where he was going to finish. Almost makes me wonder if he decided some time ago to write this year off and target next year.

Curious that, in spite of the favorable conditions, he went slower on the bike even though his NP was slightly higher.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

So he said he was massively overtrained this year and would finish about 30th ? I suppose he won't be disappointed then ?

Pretty sure LS was joking.

---

Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

when you're over 30 mins behind your category winner, were 2nd last year, and didnt beat the fastest age grouper? Um, yea. Mediocre.

I get being annoyed by over zealous fans but rejoicing in the failure or misfortune of someone really makes you a total dick. //

No kidding, anyone celebrating his bad day is missing the point of sport. And that is what it was, just a bad day from the get go. Horrible swim that was minutes off what he had just done the week before. And then an obvious power problem with his body on the bike. It was not strategy or pacing, or nutrition, he was just very much off before the gun went off.


Now you can all argue why that was, have none of you ever had a bad day? I think for me, at least 20% of my races were on off days, and half of those on really bad days, just the nature of racing. Yes, some people are blessed with having great days most of the time, but show me a champion, and I will show you someone else who had their own bad days...

He should be happy with his 2nd place FPro finish. Nice progress from last year

He most definitely need a coach! Dont really understand why not! MAybe he want to learn, maybe coaching is expensive, but right now he need someone professional that would call off this crazy ideas as doing one Ironman getting 2nd place and doing another one in the following week!

This makes no sense. All of his videos he showed incredible fitness. Talked about how he is in his best shape. In his recent training mock Ironman, he showed he was ready to have a great Ironman.

Something happened out there today, he got himself into quicksand and that was it. I would imagine that he piled on TOO much fatigue in the 3-4 weeks before Kona that he couldn't get out of.

Either way. Lionel laid a massive egg today and he'll be back.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

guess he is like luke mckenzie when he got 2nd few years back. that was his best and nothing better going forward

He most definitely need a coach! Dont really understand why not!

-------

Until he realizes this, he'll always "fight" coaching/listening and want to do it "his way". BUT it has to start with him...he has to realize this, not his friends, not his wife, but him, because that's when he'll actually buy in and see the things he wants to see. Until then it'll just be an "advisor" or an "check in" with a coach.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

My under-informed opinion is he trained too much the last few weeks leading up to the race. And probably burned a few too many matches this year with his no-meat diet adventures. Otherwise, he would have done much better.

Someone has to look at his equipment / position. He pushed more watts on a calmer day and was slower. Add this to a slower than expected swim; and I am sure that caused him to come out of T2 at 6 min miles - hotter than he should have.

It's a shame but you could see this coming for most of the season. It really rattled him and he started making drastic changes. He's relatively new but his reluctance to coaching is a problem for him. He continues to just hammer himself where a coach would help control that and save him from his obsession!

What coach would accept him?

I think he was faster while pushing the watts, he made up like 4 minutes, but then imploded.....

An coach that is going to need LS to show them why they should coach him.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

He may not be back. 2nd last year may have just been a lucky fluke.

That's the truth. He needs a top-top-top coach that he both believes in (so he'll do what he says) and also demands to keep him on the straight and narrow to success with no f*cking around. Kropelnicki comes to mind, but I'm sure there's several others.


I'm extremely difficult to coach because I think I already know so much, but I'll listen to certain people if they have results and also somewhat align with what I already think. Sanders seems the exact same way. Kropelnicki comes across as somebody with awesome results and also has plenty of background in nutrition. And I had an hour-long chat with Rob Gray about nutrition that was amazing. People, hit him up if you're looking for how to get your calories down a whole lot better. Tough to beat advice from an Ultraman champ.

No offence taken!

You are a special kind of person

Wife must live being married to you

No he doesn’t need a coach, he needs to pick up the phone and give Tilburs a call back.

Maurice

Considering changing the post title to a Chrissie Wellington-esque headline: "LS, 2nd female Pro"

i've been moderating this forum for going on 20 years. i've seen a lot. i've learned a lot. and truly it's taken me many of those years to learn the lessons that matter. and here's one:

if you don't find a thread to your interest or liking...

...don't read it!

i developed the skill of not reading what i don't want to read just after learning the two most important marriage skills: i'm sorry; and you were right.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i don't coach anybody anymore. but if i wanted to coach, and i could have my pick of any athlete, i'd start with lionel. if i was a manufacturer, and i wanted an athlete to use my product, my first stop would be lionel.

and... i don't even know lionel.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Lets assume he was fatigued going into the race. Starts swimming and immediately the body doesn't feel good. Has a very poor swim which isn't a surprise from Lionel. However, looking at where he swam at the practice swim a week prior we can say he swam very bad. Something was up.

Now onto the bike. He starts riding and immediately the legs feel fatigued, no pep. He pushes the watts he knows how he can push. Add in the same drafting you always see in the front group. How many times did we see Lange sitting up and or soft pedaling when on camera? But still rides a crazy fast time. While Lionel is way back by himself pushing big watts but isnt the match for a group dynamic.

Watts and Time are not the best measurement of how he did as the dynamics of the race play a bigger reason into times done. You put LS in a smaller field with those watts and he will ride much better comparative to others who don't have group support.

Also in the watt category, if LS was fatigued from the weeks of training and almost two Ironmans before. If he was out of the aero bars more because he was fatigued and frustrated, he's going to push higher watts and go slower.

What does all this mean? Shit who knows. What I do know is that LS caused himself to miss out on another big opportunity off his own ignorance. His videos are entertaining but educated people see the his videos as a complete train wreck. Not some gleaming hope of whats possible. He has proven time and time again that he cannot manage himself and he's too stubborn to allow someone to work with him. When DTD worked with him last year is when we saw the most growth. Fast forward one year and we have LS self coached, talking massive game, making massive errors, and bombing at the most important race of the year.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

A post race interview would be interesting to see his take of what happened. Also, a “what did Lionel Sanders learn...” thread from his coach Barri would be more useful than his other usual “what did LS learn” posts imo.

That's all fair enough, but there's no need for the level of threads on one athlete when there could just be one super thread.

I browse this forum on my mobile and have to go to the 3rd/4th/5th page sometimes to find threads I was posting in the day before.

I think any of us who understand training are worried about the same.

Sorry meant to reply to you on my last post.

wait! your posts today are born out of your concern about the welfare of those you're posting about? sorry. i had you figured wrong.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i hear you, brother, but i don't think this is because of lionel threads. we'll host 2000 posts today.

EDIT: actually, closer to 3000.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Nope he overdid it, was overmotivated and the last 2/3 IM for "testing" was stupid.

Nothing mediocre. If you want to use the word, you could say "mediocre performance today". But he is 100% not mediocre.

You must have a Keen eye on the midnight cutoff

Well said Steve. He's his own worst enemy and is wasting time. IMO he now is way behind the lead group and his approach will not lessen the gap. Maybe a sponsor's dream, but the results are more and more nightmarish. As a few I've seen through the years, though, I feel he's one who is pretty much uncoachable in the terms of more than one year. We all now that it takes more than that to get used to and benefit most from a good coach, so I doubt we'll see him in the position of vying for that top tier.

I think what LS has done in a pro career is one of the most amazing things ever. To go from a AG what not even 8 or so years ago to today being a "bust" and coming off a 2nd in Kona....I find his transformation/career fascinating in that he's never had anything. I watch his videos and just look from afar and the one thing that screams to me is very reactionary. And maybe that's entirely because everything about him he's had to work his ass off for, nothing was given to him, he's not part of "triathlon royalty" like the Frodo/Gomez's, etc.

But I've had athletes there- show up on race day and from the gun just not "have it"- whether fatigued/sick/"off" day, could be a combination of everything. And then to watch that race unfold, I swear Lange was bored on the bike it looked like and he was not even 5 mins from the front of the bike race the whole time. Like what we just witnessed was pretty damn special combination of somewhat great ride by the uber bikers but in all honesty, the "front pack" rode really really well. It really was as if the front uber bikers never stood a chance today. How they rode, to the point of dropping Currie and Gomez in the final 10 miles, shows just how strong they worked together irregardless of who was doing the majority of the work.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think it is great that people are passionate about athletes.
It just mean that they care about the sport enough to be engaged.

Triathlon has enough of grumpy men. I am glad someone care and have a favorite athlete.

i have about a half-dozen things that have made me cringe about how he races and trains over the last half-dozen years. i, like you, think he could've made better choices, short-cut his way to better performances more quickly, and found better success with less exertion.

i also noted how he got himself to 2nd place last year and damned near won, and i also watched mark allen try and fail 7 times to get himself to the top spot in kona.

lionel is the highest placing, best performing, most podium honored athlete who is dumber than virtually all the spectators who watch him... according to those spectators.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I agree with what you are saying and am talking mostly out of frustration.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

It's called schadenfreude. And that's not a dick.

Are you this upset about Kienle not winning?

He had a terrible day as well.

What is it about Lionel that rubs you so raw?

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----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

I wouldn't have thought you would have posted that, but Thank You

I'm going to look at the results, but I'd be curious if anyone 3 mins + out of the swim even came in the top 12. Seeing how the front "pack" rode (I'm not even talking the uber bikers) today and then you add in 1 more super power in Frodo next year (if he races)......That type of athlete who isn't a front pack or atleast just off the front pack, just get a major wake up call.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm assuming you're joking

Yep. People that believe that dumb line that "I just had an off day" are not thinking straight. There is always a reason or several reasons. The body doesn't work outside the facts of science, physics, and chemistry. A bad day is from overtraining, unwise diet choices, not being heat adapted, not training enough, going too fast too soon, poor fuel choices, under or over hydrating... lots of stuff. There is no magic flying carpet that gives you super powers that you somehow forgot to kickstart that morning.

How so?

So I used 51 mins as the 3 min or slower variable.

3 out of top 15 swam slower than that. And actually those 3 all swam 54+. A few swam just under 51 (so roughly 3 mins back out of T1).

2nd- 54 (so your LS result of 2018).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

there are 2 things pretty much everyone on this forum knows, and neither of the 2 parties (objects of this knowledge) realizes is it: lionel could have done a lot of things very differently and his results would have very likely been better; and davews09 is a dick (or if not he's got a really good imitation of it going today).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

well he did write this beauty of a post a while back:

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...e_P6725752/#p6725752

I have no feeling about Lionel one way or another. However he's obviously extremely gifted ( as are any # of pros) and has a grazy drive. BUT.... it's painful to watch a athlete waist (IMO) yrs of his career because he thinks he knows best.

As for his fans.....What can I say your just fun to troll:)

You keep saying this, I don't think anyone here believes you.

Completely agree with the first part of that. I'm actually a pseudo Lionel fanboy... but with what he's done following Kona last year he deserves the critique.

Was he? It was an amazingly accurate assessment and prediction. Somewhere, can't remember where, I saw an interviewer ask Sanders about Frodeno being out. He essentially said that, while he was sad for Jan, he needed another year to get ready to race him anyway.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Seems like his head was not in it

it's not the critique. it's the delivery.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Most people I know that enjoy schadenfreude are dicks. Just because you know the name of it doesn't make it any less untoward.

Lol, true. Like, just because genocide has a name doesn't make it ok.

Bart Aernouts swam 54.07 against Lionel's 53.5x.

Grow up....

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Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022

Dammit Lionel....maybe why your body was off is you did an IM in Tremblant on empty 7 weeks ago and you did all these 3/4 IM days too close to the race. I think he says it in the video.

In fairness to the Sanders overhype, Kienle under performed too as did did Frodo and so did Gomez.

Hopefully it’s a wake up call. When he had his great race last year he was working with (but not coached by) Tilbury-Davis I think. Maybe he sees that there was value working with him and looks over at fellow Canadian Cody Beals and sees how well he’s done under his guise. As mentioned in every single LS thread, his ceiling is very high, but he needs someone to keep him on the right track and protect him from himself so he can reach his potential. As a fan of the sport I’m hoping today’s performance will help him step back and see this

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Matt

Think he's saying bad days are really only from getting sick or recovering from sickness. Most other bad days are self inflicted and Bad day is a good cover story

Maybe Patrick Lange is one of the best if not the best to ever do this race and Lionel was unlucky that Lange showed up last year where he would have won otherwise

How many in the top 20 did an Ironman within 6 weeks like Lionel did?

One, Matt russell


Terrible prep, terrible planning. Bottom line he was not recovered and athletes like Lionel need tough conditions here on Kona.

I like Lionel but he needs someone to plan his schedule.

Frodo even alluded to it in his discussion when he was a guest on the live coverage during the race. He's seen all kind of people miss start lines for various reasons, and it's never really happened to him, but he said he went too hard in South Africa and just paid for that by the time he got over to Australia for his pre Kona camp. Sanders blew it in Tremblant, but maybe not to the same extent as Frodo. At least he made it to the start line but maybe in an under sharpened state from too much too close too often. There is no need for him to do race simulations constantly so close to the race because that's not the optimal way to prepare your physiology and he's not immune to what generally does not work for all of the population when getting ready for these events.

In any case, he performs well in the Hoala swim because there are others to swim around (age groupers, women etc). On the day of the pro men's swim, when the pace gets ratcheted up, the chord snaps, then he's in no man's land pulling water himself. I don't think he has developed the 25-50 meter surge when already swimming on the rivet to stay in contact, and being lighter probably did not help him since he's already swimming like a drag chute. Losing muscle works against him in a surgy swim....then the game is over and not having Wurf or Drietz around left him having to do everything on his own watts. He basically biked the same pace as the Drietz group on the same watts as he put down last year (which seems weird unless he was sitting up like a sail most of this year because everyone was riding faster). He needed to minimally be with the Drietz group to save his legs for the rest of the day like all the guys in that group minus Drietz were doing (kudos to Drietz for basically towing all those guys around the QueenK and then backing it up with a solid run. He was very impressive for a big guy in Kona.

Sanders 53:59 swim time his race was over. Head case. Times in Kona were so fast today he was in no mans land. Even when he would get within 1 min of Lange group sanders could never bridge up. I have been in Kona for 10 days and I have did every time I have seen Sander he is ya too skinny. No wind Sanders etc (Uber bikers) are done.

LS is good for the sport

He is engaging, transparent and articulate

Ironman WC are not like riding the tour, running Berlin or the 10k at the world champs

There is little opportunity to correct errors and the impact of errors compound over time; miss swim pack, chase to hard, miss special needs etc

It seems deriving some sense of satisfaction from someone's poor performance who showed up to race is pretty classless

It seems even more amazing that those same people know exactly what he did wrong when he finished second just a year ago

I've know idea who LS talks these things through with, but it seems that this is an opportunity for him to learn.

Those that dismiss his ability to learn don't seem to be able to reconcile that he is apparently smart enough to have figured out how to learn enough to get to a point where he finished second but not smart enough for this to have been a result of anything other than him not being smart............

I've no doubt he will be back, delivering, communicating, being an advocate and learning from this........

Sanders too skinny and no wind and he's done....exactly the same thing happened to Hellriegel around 1998....showed up too skinny (no place to store glycogen) and not enough wind and the champion was off the back. In this case 2nd place to also ran for Lionel. He should just do the Hoala swim totally solo to see what time he really does, because there is no big train in the front of that swim to create the surges he has to follow on race day and there are no age groupers/pro women around him to draft off of on race day who he can draft at the Hoala....or just not do that practice swim and focus most of the final month on getting his 25m to 100m swim speed as high as possible (and not doing race simulations constantly)!

and did you see the way Dave passed him running around the van. Dude should go back to Windsor flipping burgers with Molina at the K-Mart.

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http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

I’m not making excuses for him, as the best won on the day, and he could never run with Lange IMO. But I am not sure anyone noticed, his rear hydration must have broken off somewhere on the bike. Tririg have a race day gallery up (best in the business post race images) and he is missing the rear hydration in some of the images. Looks to have broken off. That would have an impact...

"Sanders 53:59 swim time his race was over. Head case. "

Bart swam 54:07 and his race was not over!!!

There are no slow bikers anymore. Lionel can not win the race on the bike.

Wurf hardly got 5 minutes over the second group.

Maybe Lionel has to reconsider his strategy. Close the gap to the runners group and sit in the group the remainder of the bike.

Well a perfect example of him making excuses is when he lost IMMT to Cody Beals he does a vlog saying he changed his diet the week before the race. So either he is really really stupid or makes excuses with the best of them

I think the Andy Potts bashing can end now. That was a pretty impressive race for him at 40.

I think Lionel has done a great job transforming his life into a potential
Kona winner but this year he gave into too many of his impulses. The quick turnaround from IMMT just was disastrous . As someone who has seen this race for 40 years and certainly seen same actions and results more often than not. The question is where does he go from here? He certainly needs a mentor or coach to be voice of reason at times. It will be interesting to see what he learns from this to move forward!

He had a world class coach in DTD... IMO, he never gave him control and fully trusted him. This is probably why he called him an "advisor".

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Toro Performance

Identifying mistakes/weaknesses and making excuses are not the same. The former is an acknowledgement while the latter is a release from obligation.

Regardless of whether it is from getting a coach, or some other way, I hope he bounces back positively. I'll never understand all the hate here on ST. He's no god, but he is a class act IMHO.

All he needs is to go to last year's plan work with last year's advisor, execute to the plan for race day that last year's advisor gave him but that he partially overcooked last year and hope for a 2004 Stadler favourable windy day

I remember when Mark Allen kept coming 2nd to Dave Scott, year after year. Imagine the critics here on Slowtwitch who would have been criticizing his training approach, calling him a loser etc. And the critics are sitting at home, behind their keyboards, writing out the best way for him to improve.

It's so disgusting when people here go after someone who had a bad day and then gloat over it.

Has anyone seen any interview or quotes from him post-race? I'm really interested to hear.

Some part of me wants Sanders to win Kona.
Its definitely two sided though. His fans think he's awesome because he let's cocks follow him around with a camera ( good marketing) and his critics either don't like him because he's quirky, or Canadian, doesn't come on ST or whatever. Personally his fans constantly saying how great he is and there 50 threads on ST and insisting he doesn't need a coach is what make me laugh. If nothing else his carrier is nothing short of amazing but if someone could get threw to him....Look out!
Maybe get him to stop over training and peak at the right time ( obviously arm chair QBing).
But nothing will change....

No hate here. Guy is a monster. As a fan of his, I'm more frustrated than anything. I love his transparency and how much he shares on his social channels. And while Im sure he will bounce back, his window for success is finite.

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Toro Performance

I as well.

I don't get the hate either.

Dude obviously had a crap race, well below his potential.

I had hoped for a repeat of last year, only with Sanders having more in the tank when Lange caught him and the 2 racing down to the finish. Instead we saw someone get pulled by a teammate all day and then run off the front by himself for 2 hrs.

As impressive/incredible an exhibition as Danielas race was, it was boring as well. No fireworks, no big battle of wills, just her being a machine and running everyone else into the ground.

Watching Lange get led out for passes and getting pulled all morning by Drietz was just depressing. Sure, it was legal, I guess, but how one can celebrate that and revel in the downfall of a guy like Sanders who does the exact opposite just mystifies me.

End point of my ramblings: why celebrate someone imploding when that implosion only means we get a less exciting race to watch?

Has the age of the Ironman Domestique arrived?

It's called being a douche.

Dave Scott IMO would be the perfect match! Tons of knowledge has a coach, athlete, Kona and so much more. Kind of coach you would say "yes sir", type of personnality that could handle someone like Lionel.

Comments on mediocre day... Blabla... So Jan the previous year finishing in 35th was the same... Just showing respect to the island, sponsors, family, friends that help him into the journey.

Still want to know his comments after the race... Who knows what really happened yesterday?

Jellyfish sting? Daniela managed really well but could have been a disaster... Sebi issue with a back wheel, FVL penality...

At end it will not change this year results, books are close! Lets move to slowly to the off season and planing Kona 2019!

I have no hate for him either. Though I understand why he is so polarizing. It will be fascinating to hear his follow up from the race. If you look at his bike power file, it’s clear something was off - his power was steadily dropping in the 2nd half

This is the simplest explanation and most likely the core issue that sabotaged Lionel's race. I was on course at IMMT and I passed Lionel on the out & back. It made a strong impression on me because he looked like a shattered man in that last 10k. His eyes were like saucers, he was gaunt, and quite honestly; he looked like a man traveling through Dante's Inferno. He knew that the nutrition mistakes leading into Tremblant, and then driving his engine on empty for 140.6 miles, did damage. And that's why he did the 3/4 IM test days.

I'm a Lionel fan, but he needs to hand the reigns over to a Team that consists of a coach, nutritionist, and some Tri-focused training partners. Lionel by himself in his own head trying to figure things out is not working. It's no coincidence why Prof Triathletes are constantly praising their coaches. And heck, at least if he had a coach and still had a bad performance, he'd have someone to blame other than Lionel!!


GET A FREAKING COACH LIONEL!!!

Lionel can pick from the following:

• Mark Allen
• Dave Scott
• Paula Newby Fraser
• Peter Reid
• Chrissie Wellington
• Frodo
• Sebi

I don't think he will listen to anyone who has not won Kona. The problem with the last two is they are active and will have a conflict of interest, but I bet he would listen to them if they were not racing

No, race will change again next year so using the strategy that might have allowed him to win this year won’t work. That much I have learned in watching Kona.

Kropelnicki would be PERFECT for Sanders. That’s an outstanding idea.

---

----------------------------------
Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Sure seemed like it.

Then again, that has happened in the past with the swim. I recall reading Sanders himself did something similar in the swim.

If he just kept coming in second to Lange over and over, we could accept that Sanders was great, but Lange was just greater. Almost nobody's saying Lucy Charles is a loser and needs more training discipline. She's just unfortunate to be living in the zenith of the Ryf era. But Lionel went full Leroy Jenkins with his training plan after last year and didn't come close to repeating last year's performance.

"Bad Days" don't just happen. There's always an underlying cause. Sometimes its out of your control like illness or a mechanical or a random wreck/injury. Most often it's the result of improper preparation or execution. I'm a Sanders fan, and was hoping (against reason) that he would pull off the win. But I have to say, if he just writes yesterday's performance off as "a bad day" and doesn't reflect on his preparation and execution, he's a bigger idiot than his critics say he is. I doubt he'll do that, though. Nobody's a bigger Lionel Sanders critic than Lionel Sanders. One thing I like about him is that he takes his failures head-on. I just hope he takes a more measured approach with his adjustments next year.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

100% agree

I'm late to this party but are you really gloating over a a hard-working athlete having what must have been a really disappointing day after a year of extraordinarily hard work and dedication?

Classless. Unsportsmanlike. It has no place in this sport.

I like Sanders, but not as much of a dedicated fan as some. I thought his making such drastic diet/body changes after having such a great race last year and coming up only a tiny bit short was a mistake. I'm sorry it did not work out for him. More great performances from more great athletes only improves things for us fans and spectators.

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

As a fan of Sanders, he desperately needs a coach. Anyone watching his videos could clearly see the panic setting in, getting away from the roots of what made him successful. From a diet change, doing 2/3 of an Ironman so soon after one, to changing bike fit a week or so before Kona, he's in his own head. Also, maybe now we don't have to see and hear so much about Gatorade Endurance. Lets hope he hires some professionals to help guide him (coach, nutritionist, planner, etc). Tough and humbling race but hopefully it's exactly what he needed personally to see the wake up call.

Except Bart Aernouts, who finished the swim even further behind than Lionel...

Why so pious? It is professional sport. If Sanders has sold his knack for extremes as a way to market himself and has garnered worship for it he can also be mocked. How he sells himself and how people carry on about him brings this upon him. And not it "will make him angrier and hungrier" according to his fans. Nobody is mocking an injury or an accident. He crapped the bed after a year of build up were anybody with half a brain could see that he is doing the opposite of what he should be doing.

Why is there no talk about him losing his rear hydration?

I'm not in the loop of anything about him losing his rear hydration but he's hyped Gatorade Endurance for months on end, which is readily available at every aid station, thus not an excuse opposed to if it was a custom blend.

Yes I did a 2nd post of the top 15 and their swim positions. 3 swam 6ish mins back in the 54+ min group, and 10 of the 15 swim within 3 mins of the T1 leader.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

yeah, Lionel led the 54 pack out of the water. Plenty of those guys bridged up, to include incredible finishes by Matt Russell and Arnouts

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

But where does he put the Gatorade if he lost his rear cage? Do these guys have bottle pockets in the back of their tops like a regular cycling jersey? (Serious question, I don't know). If the only cage he had was a BTA, and he couldn't throw a bottle in a pocket on his back, he had to choose between water or Gatorade.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Since Sanders has a history of emulating his rivals, he should try to get coached by Faris Al Sultan. Plus, he meets your criteria of being a past Kona champ. But the *CONFLICT OF INTEREST* obviously prevents that from happening.

Maybe a soul searching training camp like Mark Allen did with Molina in New Zealand in 1989 could help him overcome his Kona demons. But Mark Allen went off of the grid for that epic breakthrough camp and Sanders is probably too attached to Instagram and YouTube for the kind of soul searching Allen did at that 1989 camp which possibly set the stage for his Ironwar breakthrough.

This whole "you must be in the first swim group in order to stand a chance in Kona" is just a total myth. Bart Aernout is not the only exception. Boris Stein got himself almost into a winning position two years ago. He even said very explicitly in an interview afterwards, how Kona suits him better than most other IM races, as there are always other relatively poor swimmers, so he doesn't end up alone in no-man's-land in the water. Michael Weiss would have been there as company too.

This comes down to neglecting equipment choices/pre-race checking then. Guys like Andy Potts rolled with like 3 bottles on the bike.

Edit: Looks like his suit had pockets so I'd eliminate the losing of rear hydration as an excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7_UcBCLkPM

for someone like Lionel, this would mean having the *courage* to sit in the pack and then go head to head on the run. IMO he's running from himself (we all do this in triathlon) and thus has to bike hard to give himself a chance.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I agree instead of changing everything, keep doing what you've done and build on it. He clearly got rattled by things he couldnt control and overreacted .

Did he lose his rear bottle cage?

amateurs improve their weaknesses, elites go with their strengths

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Except your really talking exceptions. And it's more that the swim sets you up for exactly the group your going to be riding in. So when 80% of the top 5 has a 3 min gap or less, it starts to showcase just how hard it can be for the "slow" swimmers to ride against the chase group who's "sitting" in.

As I said, 12 of the top 15 were within 3 mins and thus "saved a match" with their swim.


So if you want to say it's a myth, I want to say it's more a "standard" that pretty much you are going to want to achieve or else it's 1 less thing you get to use as a weapon.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Great observation. Last year he was under the tutelage and advisement of David Tilbury Davis. Cody Beals has been working with him for years and has managed a steady progression, and credits DTD as being instrumental to his success.

As well DTD has several other athletes that had a stellar 2018 both in age group and pro fields. Such a shame Lionel parted ways with DTD and hopefully he can regroup and link up with DTD again or someone of that caliber.

Yes, Lionel has a relatively poor swim and that means one less thing to use as a weapon. And he won't be turning his swim into a weapon. If 12 of the top 15 are better swimmers than him, then this shows that swimming is not his strength, which is what everyone knows. But it's not the end of his chances.

Most of these pros who have "coaches" also likely have enough of a relationship that they aren't being dictated every single workout. Most of these guys know enough of what they need to do, that they use their coach more as a sounding board/overseer + workout week planner (maybe the exact individual sets can be meshed with what coach wants and athletes knows they need)....but LS was the first person I ever had seen at the professional level to call his coaching relationship w/ DTD more "advising". And I know coaches who actually have that as a service, they do a weekly or monthly "look over" for athletes, and then give advice on the next block, etc. But being in the coaching profession, it was the 1st time I ever kinda questioned an athlete for calling their coach an "advisor"....it was very strange thing imo....And again, maybe that's what both of them wanted in the relationship- I have no clue, I was just actually shocked when it seemed like LS wanted to make it known he was more of an "advisor" than coaching him, because he would in several different media publications use "advisor/advising" in his description in replace of "coaching".

And I know it's likely all semantics, but I kinda thought of it more as a respect thing.....Again likely just semantics, but it defintely made me step back and shrug and wonder why he couldn't just have a "coach".

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

On triathlon taren’s walk through of sanders bike he said the only thing he was using the rear cage for was it had a flat kit and if he needed to hold trash in it. On to the next reason.....

Seems like he picked up his swim game having someone other than himself make workouts, why not do that same approach to the other two sports? Just to second why everyone else has said he needs a coach that he can fully TRUST and has some sort of street cred.

It appears so.......not sure at what point though.

https://www.tririg.com/...Race_Day&num=314

And he won't be turning his swim into a weapon.

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If Sebi K can, LS can. Sebi came in under 51 mins out of the water..now a wheel change did in him, and as I said in other thread, when you flat/crash/issue, that to me takes you off the hook.

LS has swam side by side with Sebi what 2 other years in Kona, and this year Sebi had the super good swim.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Spot on B_Doughtie. Totally agree.

I'm not a LS fanboy and I did notice a bunch of threads about him over the past year, but man, this is prob the most "gloaty" douche thread I've seen on ST...and there are alot of those.

This race did not play to the uber biker strength...environmental factors were a...non factor.

Anyways, carry on...and I doubt LS goes home devastated. I think he goes home with a ton of fuel for the fire...

There's a difference between having a mediocre performance and being a mediocre athlete.

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

a) Sebi won Kona 4 years ago, without a strong swim.
b) Sebi started triathlon (i.e. also swim training) before he became a teenager.

What do you think is more likely to happen in the next 1, 2, or x years?
(i) Lionel developing into a well-rounded triathlete with no weakness, winning Kona Frodo-style
or
(ii) Lionel becoming an (but not the only) exception to win Kona based on a strong bike-run-combo despite a weaker swim?

If I was him (or his coach) I would aim for (ii)...

If he only had a BTA cage he was still fine. His plan was Gatorade Endurance only. With aid stations every 10 miles, he could grab a new bottle at every one.

Do I have to pigeon myself with those only 2 answers? Because I would choose option 3- come out with Sebi and only 3 mins down and you change our whole game plan. And so since LS and Sebi have swam side by side for years now in the pro ranks, except for yesturday, I see no reason why LS can't replicate what Sebi did yesturday.

Because I'm talking about winning the race- not podiums. And in this now new generation of Kona, you can't come into T2 behind the fastest runner in Kona and expect to win. So if your strategy is simply to accept that you can't swim, but be around the uber bikers, that's fine. You just better be on. And you better make a gap on Lange...sitting in his group isn't good enough. Bart rode in with Lange, and finished 4 mins down of Lange, there was not even a battle for 1st at any point in the day really yesturday. It was clear that Lange was bidding his time and he was in 1st by what mile 12, he won by what 0.67mi. Not even within sight.


And I dont think it's delusional to suggest that LS with good training can swim side by side with Sebi. So I'm not going to say he should only think about sitting with the Bart group now and forever.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Clearly it has. Drietz is owed more than a pat on the back for sure. Assuming Lange was outside of the draft zone, his interpretation is tighter than everyone else’s (based on the overhead shots)... 26.3 mph with all that sitting up and soft pedaling is incredible.

Here is an idea. Set the cones up at 12 meters. Makes it easy to ride to and for the refs to police.

Here is an idea. Set the cones up at 12 meters. Makes it easy to ride to and for the refs to police.

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They have those with either the side little reflector markers or the ones in the middle of the road. They did an article on that a few years back, that they would use on the road markers as "markers" for ease with the athletes and officials.

As I said, if we are talking draft zones, make it bigger. Bigger zone means less "officiating" and, I still dont understand why WTC is so hesitant to doing that, but man are they.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

he was very close... he was the first guy in the 54 pack. He must have been hanging on by a fingernail and swimming at VO2 to be the last guy in the 51 pack. It will come, just like it did for Sebbie this year.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

+1 spot on

Sebi + LS + Wurf---- bye bye any "uber" bikers in the 54 range catching that group.

So again I dont think this is the end all be all, but if the other guy suggests that LS should just "sit in" with the group he's always come out with because Bart did the same thing yesturday and got 2nd- I would say is limiting your options. So if Sebi can swim with Wurf, dont tell me that LS can't.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

+1
This is absolutely true! It is not semantics!
Just before Kona, he was saying that the "lone wolf" era is over-audience is clapping/cheering and STers are exhaling relieved that he may have come to some senses here!- and then...goes to say he discovered what was missing... the "training buddy" era!
I don't know why, but he is constantly trying to reinvent the wheel! I wish him best of luck and hope he takes Kona one day...but the clock is ticking...

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"Discipline is the highest of all virtues. Only so may strength and desire be counterbalanced and the endeavors of man bear fruit."
Nikos Kazantzakis, The Rock Garden

Absolutely agree.

I think people are being far too critical on Lionel. He has ALREADY proven himself as a phenomenal athlete. I also don't believe in flukes at Ironman. If you did well...you were in the shape to do well and you executed well. Last year Lionel did that. As another armchair quarterback, I don't get why he was pushing so hard in training so close to the race, but I assumed he knew what he was doing.

By looking at the numbers, I think Lionel could be a contender for the win BUT he needs to drop 5 minutes off his 2017 run time. If he can run in the 2:45 range, he could win if the race is not playing out like a run race. But it seems that is less likely the case nowadays.

If he biked the way he is capable of yesterday, and for the sake of argument, that is 3 minutes slower than Wurf. And if he came out of the swim about 2 minutes down from Wurf, Lionel would be 5 minutes down from Wurf in T2 and would have 2 minutes on Lange. If he could pull off at 2:45 he would still loose by 1.5 minutes....but he would be damn close.

You see where I am going with this? A reasonable swim (as you mentioned) but focus on pulling off a strong run after the bike. We all know from race performances, Lionel IS a fast runner. He is capable of better that the 2:51 in 2017 in my opinion. Then again, if Gomez tries again and again, he could show his running prowess and win. He is certainly a faster runner than Lionel.

One other point....I see many people commenting on the benefit of riding in the group. However, I also heard Dave Scott talking about the inefficiencies of riding int he group (the spikes in power that are needed to stay out of the draft zone). I say this because perhaps being a couple of minutes down after the swim has it's benefits and you only need to surge a bit to get past the group when you catch them. Wurf had to do that.

I agree with many people. Stick with the plan if it is working. Consistency and logic would suggest that you will improve a little bit more. Lionel only needed a little bit more.

In fact, I just noticed that the numbers I just put out are very close to what Bart Aernouts put out. Bart had a great performance.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

"i don't coach anybody anymore. but if i wanted to coach, and i could have my pick of any athlete, i'd start with lionel. if i was a manufacturer, and i wanted an athlete to use my product, my first stop would be lionel.

and... i don't even know lionel. "
-----------------------------------
Your insight is exactly on target. No question he is an intriguing character with huge potential. However, a question hanging out there that I really do not know enough about is his addiction and recovery. Perhaps it is out there, I just don't know about it. The reason I bring that up is working with that addiction mindset could be very problematic. His erratic/irrational decision making his training, etc, is probably a symptom of or replacement for of his addiction/recovery. That will continue until HE deals with it . . . a coach or marketer probably won't be able to do a lot with him until he does a lot with himself. I wish him well.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Yeah, you're going straight between Fantasy Land and Wishful Thinking Village.

From your post:

If he can run in the 2:45 range
if the race is not playing out like a run race
If he biked the way he is capable of yesterday
And if he came out of the swim about 2 minutes down from Wurf
If he could pull off at 2:45

1:10 of this video....duh? Need a coach much??


My under-informed opinion is he trained too much the last few weeks leading up to the race.


I agree. All the people who claim his only mistake is that he doesn't have a coach are ridiculous. He came 2nd last year and there are an awful lot of athletes with coaches that have never come 2nd in Hawaii. If he has the ability to come second and win so many other races, he seems to be doing quite fine without a coach.

I think his mistake was one that was mentioned a lot, that people who come 2nd think they have to change everything. Then he had a sub-par race in Mt. Tremblant and panicked and thought he has to change everything again. He has to learn to trust his training, and then go into a race fresh, not changing his diet, doing hard sessions too close to the race etc.

A coach would simply point those things out and he likely wouldn't listen anyways.

At one point in the broadcast they showed an official talking to Lange. The commentator said something like, it wasn’t a warning... they were probably telling him to not get any closer.

What happens to the Dreitz train and Lange if they actually enforced the rules?

I believe JGN was the other big offender from the overhead shots. I’m sure there were some others, but he and Lange were consistently riding closer than anyone else in the train.

It is really embarrassing. I don’t know how they can watch their race on replay and not feel a bit dirty. Like they got away with one.

What can we do as fans / participants to get WTC to give a crap? Maybe if the broadcast was independent and would call out the lack of rule enforcement, so that the public cares more. I don’t know. Just seems like they need to get rid of the rule, in which case it’s a different sport. It’s the in between state we are in that I find very frustrating.

I think if you understand the "why" in which people are suggesting he needs a coach- will be the very reason you are suggesting.

LS "knows" what he needs to do to perform well, but he needs an filter so to speak. That's what I think most people are suggesting as to why a coach would be critically important. This isnt so much an X's and O's mistake as more of an complete overview mental + physical overhaul with the coaching suggestion.

One of the biggest things a coach could do for LS is to give LS a break from "worrying" over everything. But again that means the athlete has to buy into what the coach is suggesting....harder for some athletes to do then others. And on that note, it's nothing more "frustrating" for both an athlete and the coach, when the athlete constantly"pushes back" (nothing wrong with asking questions or wanting to know the process...but it can be the tone/attitude with how you go about doing it that can eat away at the relationship...and athletes know when they are doing it). It just makes things way harder than it needs to be. Maybe that's why an "advisor" worked for LS- it gave him the freedom to do his own thing, while still having someone look over his shoulder.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The fact alone that he was out-biked yesterday by Lange should be alarming. I didn't peg Lange as a Uber-biker, despite if he had help from a teammate. Just 18 months ago he wasn't even focusing on Ironman distance. Then he has a great 2nd place and he's obsessed and trying to fix and change everything at once. He should hire a coach, work with specialist (no, cherry picking and doing Tower26 online workouts doesn't count) in each area to improve technique, and hire a proper nutritionist. When you try to fix everything at once, you lose sight of what worked.

Last year he finished 2nd. This year he dropped 26 places and finished 28th. IMO there’s more fuel for the fire when you miss the top spot by a single place as opposed to 27 places.

David, this was the most insightful post concerning Lionel in this entire thread. I think you hit the nail on the head.

I say this jokingly, but also not jokingly. I honestly think because Challenge has already done the 20m rule and successful shown it can create a "fairer" race, they have zero interest in "copying" them. I even laughed that they mentioned the penalty tent and it was a few guys who weren't even in the "draft" pack.


I didnt really understand the segment when the official was talking to Lange. The commentators were saying it wasn't a warning as that isn't allowed, but essentially the ref telling him he's on the edge of the limit and any further he would have been popped? That didn't make a lot of sense to me, as that was essentially what the official was doing- warning Lange.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Cones are a great idea. Set them up right next to the markers. They are more visible to the rider, the referees and the spectators. They may visually help athletes ride more legally. No guarantees, but it’s a step in the right direction. If they can’t set them up on the entire course, fine. Set them up on the Queen K at least and that’ll cover 95% of the problem where the issues currently occur.

yeah the whole thing just stunk... the warnings, the conversation with Dreitz, the lead outs on passes, the hard tempo at the front of the peleton by Dreitz, etc. Not a good look for the World Champion.

Then again, he only had a camera on him because he was defending, so there's that...

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Ryf proved your theory to be correct the last two years.

Reading up on the "Lange drafting" issues....Sebi and Frodo have said that it's when the officials aren't there that Lange is even worse with the drafting distance. Which I guess can be said of a ton of people (see every IM drafting photo from every IM race)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Also he has to get rid of that pig of a bike he's on. Frame hasn't evolved in 4 years, his fit is still the worst out of any pro out there, and it lacks standard features like integrated hydration. Whatever Garneau is paying him isn't worth it.

He’s sticking with his country’s Canadian brand.

I know, right??? *Especially* after that article in the German press. The whole thing is very interesting

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

More prevalent Canadian bike brands like Cervelo and Argon 18.

Or, technically, Cannondale. But since only the owners are in Canadia (vs. design and manufacture), maybe that doesn't count.

By looking at the numbers, I think Lionel could be a contender for the win BUT he needs to drop 5 minutes off his 2017 run time. If he can run in the 2:45 range, he could win if the race is not playing out like a run race. But it seems that is less likely the case nowadays.


I think it's clear that with so many strong bikers, you have to focus on the swim to avoid missing the "train" and then focus on the run to be able to run a 2:45. LS mentioned in a few videos that he realized the benefit of having a run training partner and was seen running with that very fast miler guy.


I think he has to work on getting a swim coach and then run with that guy regularly, to get his running up. I think he'll be back and a threat next year.

Don't agree with this. Fit perhaps, but the triathlon world is filled with cervelo (and other brand) fanboys who'd have you believe it's the only brand worth considering. Just consider how many different brands were represented in the top 10 and you'll realise it's not the bike frame that matters..

P.s. McNamee is on a cervelo but it's not I wager the reason for his success
.

i'm writing thru the prism of a rank capitalist. if cameron wurf moves from pinarello to trek, and he wins the bike split next year, is it because of trek? but if he loses the fastest bike split? and trek is the only change he made?

we've had the two best weather years in kona's history the past 2 years. only '93 and '96 come even remotely close. what are the odds of more years like this? it's likelier that the men's win time next year is closer to daniela's winning time from yesterday.

if i pick up lange, frodeno, wurf, i'm just picking up somebody who, if he falters, i'm the only change, i get the blame (as the coach, bike sponsor, whatever).

but lionel! it's only upside. if he spirals off into oblivion, he was on that road anyway. if he returns to form, i'm the savior.

and, let's remember, other than the last 3 months this guy was money in terms of reliable podium finishes. so, yeah, as an equipment sponsor or coach, if all he does is return to form i'm the savior. lionel is the safest, surest bet there is.

the only thing i'd need to do, to be, is that guy who he can trust. the skill is not in providing lionel with good advice and equipment. the skill is in demonstrating to lionel that you can be trusted. i have one trait that lionel needs to generate inside himself. i have one really good skill: i only hire people who are smarter than me. the skill is in realizing that this is an imperative, and that means acknowledging that you're not only not the smartest guy in the room, but that you're in trouble if you're the smartest guy in your employ. lionel will eventually find those who are smarter than him.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well probably true - but make posts like these about said fans then. Not the dude himself.

I find it interesting:

Frodenos last two Konas:

- bad day
- DNS

Sanders last two Konas:

- 2nd Place
- bad day

Frodenos' last two Konas just happened because it's life. Stuff happens and it is a fine line between fit and falling over the top. He might have been a tad too light last year or trained a little bit too aggressively in 2018. This is something that an athlete has to face and sometimes it just is not meant to be.

But with Sanders everyone sees it differently. He was second last year but, because of his "out of this world" talent, should have won it at least three times before. So second is just a sign of failure and shows his bad pacing. And now his bad day is proof that he does everything wrong and has no clue what to do and is dumb anyway.

Hey guys, really? That guy already has a podium in Kona and has every chance to win it in the future. He is that good because of his aggressive approach and not despite it. Sometimes his extreme behaviour leads to big blows. But his extreme attitude also garantees the highest of highs.

(Not replying to you Dan, but to the thread in general)

---

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40

the LS dialogue has been ongoing before yestuday’s bad day. Again imo it’s not results that is leading my viewpoint but the attitude/mindset that seems to be driving LS right now that to me dictates some much needed help.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

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_____________________
Fester from Detroit, Mi

Sanuk wrote:

It's so disgusting when people here go after someone who had a bad day and then gloat over it.

Because of the hordes drinking the Lionel Kool-Aid who "couldn't wait" to laugh at the "keyboard critics" when Lionel crossed the finish line first. Just one example of countless posts over the past few months:


The reality is that "high protein" Ramen Noodles for breakfast, Jan aero pedals, cutting 5 pounds a week before a race and multiple Ironman training days aren't the formula for success. Lionel had a formula for success in 2017. Then he came in second at Kona he canned DTD. Can only imagine the smirk on DTD's face when Lionel crossed the line as second female pro.

Lionel had a formula for success in 2017. Then he came in second at Kona he canned DTD.


Yes and the same people criticizing him now jumped all over him for not winning despite his talent.

This...... Hahaha

Lionel made a lot of crazy changes to his training this year. A lot of those changes I liked (going out of doors), and a lot I don't like. I know numerous times it's been said on here particularly by Talbot Cox that he has advisors. He doesn't need an advisor, he needs someone that he defers some type of authority to that will provide critical feedback to. I think watching him on his youtube channel shows us a lot. I'm unsure he had enough time riding in his old position to easily adapt to what he was doing.

My biggest thing for him is that needs to tear apart his running form this winter and rebuild it so that he doesn't look like he's been shot with an arrow. Now, this has to be done extremely carefully because if done wrong he could end up slower. Does Sketchers have an actual running team set up with a technical director he can go to for this or do they just provide product and cash to athletes? Any technical support? Just some ideas, I don't think he'll be able to get fast enough in the water to make a difference, he might be able to enhance economy.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I look at this from the lens of him being a recovering drug addict. If you tell a drug addict they have a problem, do they admit it? No, they have it under control, they know what they're doing, they can right the ship.

Lionel has admitted he has replaced unhealthy addiction with a relatively healthy addiction in exercise, but he is still displaying the attitude of an addict: he doesn't need help (with training), he knows best, he can do it himself, etc etc.

Just an observation.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

All kidding aside your analogy is probably one of the smartest things I've ever read on slowtwitch

I am no coach, but I disagree with this pretty strongly. His run is not his limiter. He needs a coach, that much is certain, but only to continue to do what he was doing last year, that got him so close. He had a bad day yesterday. His run is good enough to win.

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I mean, it's not mediocre relative to us age group mortals but Sanders ins't judged relative to us. He's judged relative to his piers, the other pros he's competing against.

X2! This had been refuted countless times by many qualified coaches and other qualified ppl on this forum. His run form is not his limiting issue.

Yeah I did on page 5 of this thread... would have played a massive role in his drop in performance

DTD hasn't stopped smiling since Tremblant when Beals beat Lionel. I live 20 minutes from Beals and watched Lionel and Cody break into the sport and now as they each have their respective successes. I have said this to multiple people (for many years), Lionel lacks the intelligence to do it all himself. He needs to have someone do all his thinking for him. 99% of his actions are reactive and he adopts these strategies 100% without one would assume is any logic (the swim idea from his first Kona, all the water he wanted to drink on the run, experimenting with co2 to fill his tires before a race). Beals on the other hand is extremely intelligent, proactive, and will soon, if not already, be Canada's top Ironman male athlete. Lionel may still have great performances, but on the biggest stages when all the talent is relatively equal, the mind is what separates the top performers, and unfortunately that is Lionel's biggest weakness.

Spot on regarding Cody Beals. He is a force to be reckoned with, not only his athletic capability and talent, but his work ethic is second to none, and you rightly point out his intelligence. Might be the smartest pro in the field, his University background with his physics degree has brought a superb analytical and technical element to his triathlon career. Tough feedback you give on Lionel valid nonetheless. I was surprised when he said that he went to Kona 3 weeks early not because he planned it months ago or was part of a detailed training plan, but it was a spur of the moment decision made following 70.3 Worlds upon the suggestion of his wife. Shall be rooting for him nonetheless both in sport and life.

Davews, why the hateful disrespectful Sanders post?? And where did you place on saturday??

Lance Armstrong, in his Kona preview podcast said Sanders "Runs like he's got three legs. I mean, it's hard to watch. But it works."

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Which is why I said it needed to be done carefully otherwise instead of looking like he's hurt...he will actually get hurt.

Someone said above that that run isn't his limiter...well this race was bad so it needs a full analysis which is why he needs a coach that make those observations.

For me, paying more attention to him has mad me like him and I root for him as I root for most of the "interesting" guys. Like say Starky.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

My thought a few seasons ago( i think I posted) was he could structure a support group, much like a small Formula race team. e.g engineering is a big part of those teams.

Lionel's durability is pretty amazing. To log those hours, this long is quite the deal. But like all sports with imbalances, it takes 8+ years or more to sabotage sound bio-mechanics and start to detract from performance. More training = more regression, without proper recovery or remediation routines.

Olympic athletes have the benefit of full "state" support and re-hab therapists. I've seen some work that the USA and Canadian swimmers are doing and it's OK (you are dealing with youngsters). But I still think there needs to be more intelligent effort put toward that.

So I'd be curious as to what Lionel has in that corner, because from the looks of it, not much.

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I don't think it's disrespectful.

You know, when we see someone 'not sacrificing the gift'

Code

That makes sense. I read an article years ago about people with addictive tendencies who get into endurance sports. They easily get overtrained because they can't back off and rest/relax. Their coach gives them a schedule and they sneak in extra training anyway. But I don't think you need to be an addict to have overtraining tendencies in this sport. It's difficult to tell when just the right amount turns into "too much", and then it can be too late.

I don't believe his mention of overtraining in the interview was purely a joke. In which case he's aware of it and will hopefully make appropriate adjustments.

I wish Lionel Sanders take this bad result, as an opportunity to see all the bad decissions I took during this year, and take a Coach.

He need to slow down, and I am sure that I could perform even better than he planned. If not, if he takes it in the bad way (ie. he think that the error is that he needs to train even more) we can say good by to Sanders.

What a dick fucking post!!!

Welcome to Slowtwitch. This is why most pros have abandoned participating here.

Are they delicate genius's???

Exhibit A

And to think that Cody Beals has beaten Matt Russell handily in both of his last 2 Ironman's, it's not at all unrealistic to think Cody has a VERY real shot of a top 5 overall performance in Kona (next year if he decides to go).

Please clarify exactly what you mean by exhibit A. I don't want to respond inappropriately because I've misread or misunderstood exactly what you're trying to convey.

This is why you see many good contributing members who give good advice leave for a few years, come back for a month or so and then end up leaving again

Exactly right

No need to ask what I mean fishbum for two reasons. 1. I’ll state it exactly down below

2. I’m putting your posts on hide so I won’t see your reply anyways

You typify the socks in this sore which push away pros who used to post here as well as other good contributing members.

LOL. Go to your safe space. if by calling someone a delicate genius and implying that they can't read or see anything negative about themselves offends you then by all means hide everyone's post who has ever critiqued anything. Continue living in a bubble. God forbid anyone come on here and express their opinion about anything. I truly don't know how you people make it through life. Right wrong or indifferent whether I think your opinion is worth two s****or I agree or disagree with it I will 100% not hide your post because it is your point of view and you have every right to it. Now if pros come on here read something negative about themselves and choose to leave this forum then that is their right. Just as much as it is for you to block my post and for me to post what I want within reason and Dan's rules. ThisThis that we all seem to enjoy so much takes more mental fortitude then a lot of other things in our lives but seriously those of you who can't come on here and not choose to read something if you're afraid it's going to bother you or run around worrying about who you've offended and how cracks me up. How the hell do you people make it through life.

Actually, it is not so unbelievable how negative and mean people can be. They are so brave when they can hide behind a keyboard.

As for the purpose of this thread, it is beyond me, and it was started by someone who clearly rejoices in other people's disappointments. You can easily tell who the mean spirited posters are. It is so laughingly transparent when they pretend to be offering some sort of constructive criticism.

It is obvious there are posters here who are pretty miserable in real life. From my experience, truly happy people derive no satisfaction in other people's misfortune, and are not negative Nellies.

As for the complaints about too many Lionel Sanders threads, the solution is a simple one. If you don't like them, you don't have to read them. But just like the story of the scorpion and the frog, it is simply in the nature of some posters here to bring negativity.

I'll make one last point to you. I was reading over some of your other posts on other Lionel threads and you really do need to htfu. In one you criticize the STRO BRO for reading a post and telling him he simply didn't have to click on it like Dan said which is comical maybe you should take your own advice. And don't get me wrong I disagree with the stro bro plenty and we go back and forth occasionally but I'd be willing to bet you 50 bucks he's sitting there laughing his ass off at my posts knowing full well I'm doing the same to his.
And I love how in that same post to him you sit there and tell him how'd your blocking him as well. For fucksake at this pace you won't be reading anybody's post.
To carry on and have fun in your f****** bubble

This is a broad response to both of you and a few others......

Please do not presume what I think. No one commenting in a derogatory fashion toward Lionel on what I think knows me personally nor has been coached by me nor was party to mine and Lionel's friendship and working relationship.

That´s my only response to this thread.

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Thanks, Dave. A history lesson for those who weren't around three years ago or have chosen to block out the idea that Sanders tried something similar to what they are accusing Lange of doing - https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ing=chabrot#p5729240

As far as a somewhat out-of-the-box suggestion for a coach for Sanders (if he can't work it out with his former coach), how about Gordo Byrn? Fellow Canadian who went from chubby office guy with an alcohol problem and no former elite athletic experience to winning UltraMan and getting close to winning IM Canada. He was coached/mentored by Scott, Allen and Molina at different points during his pro career and also did a very good job making a name for himself even though he wasn't winning big races. I think he could certainly understand the obsessive tendencies that Sanders has displaced.

My hope for Sanders is that he is quiet on social media for the next year and has a great performance in Kona next year. How can you not respect someone with a 2nd place on his Kona resume?

That is a super classy response. Kudos.

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Not to derail the thread, but I thought the same thing, seeing the race unfold. Cody has to be thinking he's got as good as chance as any at making the podium and contending FTW. So many race day variables, I know, but he's got the goods to put his game on the line and see what happens... And why wouldn't you (Cody), give yourself that chance!