I'm not a LS fanboy and I did notice a bunch of threads about him over the past year, but man, this is prob the most "gloaty" douche thread I've seen on ST...and there are alot of those.

This race did not play to the uber biker strength...environmental factors were a...non factor.

Anyways, carry on...and I doubt LS goes home devastated. I think he goes home with a ton of fuel for the fire...

There's a difference between having a mediocre performance and being a mediocre athlete.

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

a) Sebi won Kona 4 years ago, without a strong swim.
b) Sebi started triathlon (i.e. also swim training) before he became a teenager.

What do you think is more likely to happen in the next 1, 2, or x years?
(i) Lionel developing into a well-rounded triathlete with no weakness, winning Kona Frodo-style
or
(ii) Lionel becoming an (but not the only) exception to win Kona based on a strong bike-run-combo despite a weaker swim?

If I was him (or his coach) I would aim for (ii)...

If he only had a BTA cage he was still fine. His plan was Gatorade Endurance only. With aid stations every 10 miles, he could grab a new bottle at every one.

Do I have to pigeon myself with those only 2 answers? Because I would choose option 3- come out with Sebi and only 3 mins down and you change our whole game plan. And so since LS and Sebi have swam side by side for years now in the pro ranks, except for yesturday, I see no reason why LS can't replicate what Sebi did yesturday.

Because I'm talking about winning the race- not podiums. And in this now new generation of Kona, you can't come into T2 behind the fastest runner in Kona and expect to win. So if your strategy is simply to accept that you can't swim, but be around the uber bikers, that's fine. You just better be on. And you better make a gap on Lange...sitting in his group isn't good enough. Bart rode in with Lange, and finished 4 mins down of Lange, there was not even a battle for 1st at any point in the day really yesturday. It was clear that Lange was bidding his time and he was in 1st by what mile 12, he won by what 0.67mi. Not even within sight.


And I dont think it's delusional to suggest that LS with good training can swim side by side with Sebi. So I'm not going to say he should only think about sitting with the Bart group now and forever.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Clearly it has. Drietz is owed more than a pat on the back for sure. Assuming Lange was outside of the draft zone, his interpretation is tighter than everyone else’s (based on the overhead shots)... 26.3 mph with all that sitting up and soft pedaling is incredible.

Here is an idea. Set the cones up at 12 meters. Makes it easy to ride to and for the refs to police.

Here is an idea. Set the cones up at 12 meters. Makes it easy to ride to and for the refs to police.

-----
They have those with either the side little reflector markers or the ones in the middle of the road. They did an article on that a few years back, that they would use on the road markers as "markers" for ease with the athletes and officials.

As I said, if we are talking draft zones, make it bigger. Bigger zone means less "officiating" and, I still dont understand why WTC is so hesitant to doing that, but man are they.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

he was very close... he was the first guy in the 54 pack. He must have been hanging on by a fingernail and swimming at VO2 to be the last guy in the 51 pack. It will come, just like it did for Sebbie this year.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

+1 spot on

Sebi + LS + Wurf---- bye bye any "uber" bikers in the 54 range catching that group.

So again I dont think this is the end all be all, but if the other guy suggests that LS should just "sit in" with the group he's always come out with because Bart did the same thing yesturday and got 2nd- I would say is limiting your options. So if Sebi can swim with Wurf, dont tell me that LS can't.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

+1
This is absolutely true! It is not semantics!
Just before Kona, he was saying that the "lone wolf" era is over-audience is clapping/cheering and STers are exhaling relieved that he may have come to some senses here!- and then...goes to say he discovered what was missing... the "training buddy" era!
I don't know why, but he is constantly trying to reinvent the wheel! I wish him best of luck and hope he takes Kona one day...but the clock is ticking...

---

"Discipline is the highest of all virtues. Only so may strength and desire be counterbalanced and the endeavors of man bear fruit."
Nikos Kazantzakis, The Rock Garden

Absolutely agree.

I think people are being far too critical on Lionel. He has ALREADY proven himself as a phenomenal athlete. I also don't believe in flukes at Ironman. If you did well...you were in the shape to do well and you executed well. Last year Lionel did that. As another armchair quarterback, I don't get why he was pushing so hard in training so close to the race, but I assumed he knew what he was doing.

By looking at the numbers, I think Lionel could be a contender for the win BUT he needs to drop 5 minutes off his 2017 run time. If he can run in the 2:45 range, he could win if the race is not playing out like a run race. But it seems that is less likely the case nowadays.

If he biked the way he is capable of yesterday, and for the sake of argument, that is 3 minutes slower than Wurf. And if he came out of the swim about 2 minutes down from Wurf, Lionel would be 5 minutes down from Wurf in T2 and would have 2 minutes on Lange. If he could pull off at 2:45 he would still loose by 1.5 minutes....but he would be damn close.

You see where I am going with this? A reasonable swim (as you mentioned) but focus on pulling off a strong run after the bike. We all know from race performances, Lionel IS a fast runner. He is capable of better that the 2:51 in 2017 in my opinion. Then again, if Gomez tries again and again, he could show his running prowess and win. He is certainly a faster runner than Lionel.

One other point....I see many people commenting on the benefit of riding in the group. However, I also heard Dave Scott talking about the inefficiencies of riding int he group (the spikes in power that are needed to stay out of the draft zone). I say this because perhaps being a couple of minutes down after the swim has it's benefits and you only need to surge a bit to get past the group when you catch them. Wurf had to do that.

I agree with many people. Stick with the plan if it is working. Consistency and logic would suggest that you will improve a little bit more. Lionel only needed a little bit more.

In fact, I just noticed that the numbers I just put out are very close to what Bart Aernouts put out. Bart had a great performance.

---

________________
Adrian in Vancouver

"i don't coach anybody anymore. but if i wanted to coach, and i could have my pick of any athlete, i'd start with lionel. if i was a manufacturer, and i wanted an athlete to use my product, my first stop would be lionel.

and... i don't even know lionel. "
-----------------------------------
Your insight is exactly on target. No question he is an intriguing character with huge potential. However, a question hanging out there that I really do not know enough about is his addiction and recovery. Perhaps it is out there, I just don't know about it. The reason I bring that up is working with that addiction mindset could be very problematic. His erratic/irrational decision making his training, etc, is probably a symptom of or replacement for of his addiction/recovery. That will continue until HE deals with it . . . a coach or marketer probably won't be able to do a lot with him until he does a lot with himself. I wish him well.

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Yeah, you're going straight between Fantasy Land and Wishful Thinking Village.

From your post:

If he can run in the 2:45 range
if the race is not playing out like a run race
If he biked the way he is capable of yesterday
And if he came out of the swim about 2 minutes down from Wurf
If he could pull off at 2:45

1:10 of this video....duh? Need a coach much??


My under-informed opinion is he trained too much the last few weeks leading up to the race.


I agree. All the people who claim his only mistake is that he doesn't have a coach are ridiculous. He came 2nd last year and there are an awful lot of athletes with coaches that have never come 2nd in Hawaii. If he has the ability to come second and win so many other races, he seems to be doing quite fine without a coach.

I think his mistake was one that was mentioned a lot, that people who come 2nd think they have to change everything. Then he had a sub-par race in Mt. Tremblant and panicked and thought he has to change everything again. He has to learn to trust his training, and then go into a race fresh, not changing his diet, doing hard sessions too close to the race etc.

A coach would simply point those things out and he likely wouldn't listen anyways.

At one point in the broadcast they showed an official talking to Lange. The commentator said something like, it wasn’t a warning... they were probably telling him to not get any closer.

What happens to the Dreitz train and Lange if they actually enforced the rules?

I believe JGN was the other big offender from the overhead shots. I’m sure there were some others, but he and Lange were consistently riding closer than anyone else in the train.

It is really embarrassing. I don’t know how they can watch their race on replay and not feel a bit dirty. Like they got away with one.

What can we do as fans / participants to get WTC to give a crap? Maybe if the broadcast was independent and would call out the lack of rule enforcement, so that the public cares more. I don’t know. Just seems like they need to get rid of the rule, in which case it’s a different sport. It’s the in between state we are in that I find very frustrating.

I think if you understand the "why" in which people are suggesting he needs a coach- will be the very reason you are suggesting.

LS "knows" what he needs to do to perform well, but he needs an filter so to speak. That's what I think most people are suggesting as to why a coach would be critically important. This isnt so much an X's and O's mistake as more of an complete overview mental + physical overhaul with the coaching suggestion.

One of the biggest things a coach could do for LS is to give LS a break from "worrying" over everything. But again that means the athlete has to buy into what the coach is suggesting....harder for some athletes to do then others. And on that note, it's nothing more "frustrating" for both an athlete and the coach, when the athlete constantly"pushes back" (nothing wrong with asking questions or wanting to know the process...but it can be the tone/attitude with how you go about doing it that can eat away at the relationship...and athletes know when they are doing it). It just makes things way harder than it needs to be. Maybe that's why an "advisor" worked for LS- it gave him the freedom to do his own thing, while still having someone look over his shoulder.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The fact alone that he was out-biked yesterday by Lange should be alarming. I didn't peg Lange as a Uber-biker, despite if he had help from a teammate. Just 18 months ago he wasn't even focusing on Ironman distance. Then he has a great 2nd place and he's obsessed and trying to fix and change everything at once. He should hire a coach, work with specialist (no, cherry picking and doing Tower26 online workouts doesn't count) in each area to improve technique, and hire a proper nutritionist. When you try to fix everything at once, you lose sight of what worked.

Last year he finished 2nd. This year he dropped 26 places and finished 28th. IMO there’s more fuel for the fire when you miss the top spot by a single place as opposed to 27 places.

David, this was the most insightful post concerning Lionel in this entire thread. I think you hit the nail on the head.

I say this jokingly, but also not jokingly. I honestly think because Challenge has already done the 20m rule and successful shown it can create a "fairer" race, they have zero interest in "copying" them. I even laughed that they mentioned the penalty tent and it was a few guys who weren't even in the "draft" pack.


I didnt really understand the segment when the official was talking to Lange. The commentators were saying it wasn't a warning as that isn't allowed, but essentially the ref telling him he's on the edge of the limit and any further he would have been popped? That didn't make a lot of sense to me, as that was essentially what the official was doing- warning Lange.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Cones are a great idea. Set them up right next to the markers. They are more visible to the rider, the referees and the spectators. They may visually help athletes ride more legally. No guarantees, but it’s a step in the right direction. If they can’t set them up on the entire course, fine. Set them up on the Queen K at least and that’ll cover 95% of the problem where the issues currently occur.

yeah the whole thing just stunk... the warnings, the conversation with Dreitz, the lead outs on passes, the hard tempo at the front of the peleton by Dreitz, etc. Not a good look for the World Champion.

Then again, he only had a camera on him because he was defending, so there's that...

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Ryf proved your theory to be correct the last two years.

Reading up on the "Lange drafting" issues....Sebi and Frodo have said that it's when the officials aren't there that Lange is even worse with the drafting distance. Which I guess can be said of a ton of people (see every IM drafting photo from every IM race)

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II