My main reason for posting updates to this thread, if maybe it might have a person ask well maybe they need to look at their bike fit, and how they race, a little closer. I sure am kicking myself for not doing this sooner since the data which I had, sure seems to show I was better on shorter cranks than longer. But, now I need to try and find how short is the best for my bike fit and performance. Glad I started early in the off season. I little over 2 months to put something to the test.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I hope people listen to all posts here except yours. You have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about and just continue to post endless treats of BS. You can cram so many stupid comments into one post, it actually amazing.

You do know that there are trade-offs (not all positives) with fit and shorter crank length right? Not to mention you may run out of seatpost or fork tube, especially at your height/age:)

So, what are the negatives. I have run out of my seatpost tube on my Velotron. Since my fork tube is cut, the only way to get my Aerobars higher will be to buy one of these adjustable stems that can angle up.

I just like trying new stuff and it is fun working with Frank to see what he can figure out for me. Why so many just want to put their head in the sand and just say it is impossible that something new might be learned. But wait, we all know the earth is flat. Darn contrarians.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You're right, it would be very easy to beat you. I don't understand why you keep saying you'd beat everyone at a race. I just don't live in CA.

Dave,

Reverse the square seat post. We have fit people up to 880mm with room to spare.

Maurice,

I've found the best crank length for 38 riders since this thread started.

I have asked Frank Day to write something up to explain what he has been doing and will be doing since he knows from your posts few, if any, of you really understand what is going on. Here is what he says.

The whole purpose of this exercise is to find the most efficiency for Dave that we can. More efficiency means for any given effort there will be more power to the wheel. The one metric that has been shown to associated with efficiency is pedal speed. Since HR generally reflects oxygen consumption a lower HR at any given power would reflect an improved efficiency. So, initially, my goal was to find Daves most efficient pedal speed. So, we did a lot of tests varying pedal speed at a known power close to his racing power and analyzed his pulse power (power/HR) at various pedal speeds. We used ergometer mode because that minimized all the other potential variables. We used different crank lengths and cadences and simply looked at the data. In addition we did a lot of testing because there is a lot of daily variation related to how rested he was, sick, etc. the data we obtained showed that efficiency did not depend on crank length to any great degree but was mostly dependent upon pedal speed. For Dave, at 200 watts his optimum pedal speed is around 110 cm/sec. This works out to be about 70 rpm on 150 mm cranks. I would expect him to do as well on 175 mm cranks if he were to drop his cadence to 60. At least, when riding on the hoods, which is the most efficient case. Now that we know his most efficient pedal speed our goal is to see what crank length allows him to achieve as close to this maximum efficiency as possible when in the aero position. I have attached a graph (pulse power vs pedal speed) that shows how this data worked out and is working out. Note those data points to the very right (fastest pedal speeds) is where he was when we started this process so slowing his pedal speed has resulted in a substantial increase in efficiency which is reflected in this Martis test that he has a ton of past experience with. I think getting him back to times that he was doing 4 years ago, at his age, is particularly satisfying. Since he doesn’t do this ride in the aero position I think it is a good reflection of what we have done. Hopefully we will be able to get him to maximize his efficiency while in a better aero position than he has been using. As you will see from the graph we have started that process and you can see going aero affects efficiency but most efficient pedal speed remains unchanged.

Since Dave has already improved his pedaling efficiency through years of PowerCranks use this endeavor is just uncovering further inefficiencies that have been ignored not only by him but by most of you. Correcting these inefficiencies is available to all, even those of you who don’t care a whit about PowerCranks or pedaling in circles. This is not easy but from the few I have done so far (all elites) at least a 5% improvement awaits you if you are willing to do the work. The benefits are probably even greater if you ride in the TT position. It is the off season, now is the time to do this work.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks, great idea. I just gave it a shot and yes, the seat can go higher then. But for me, since I am not 100mm behind the BB, I just cannot get the seat to angle correctly. Close, but no luck for me. Thanks.

Been trying for a while to get help from racermate to get some new parts to be welded. Will try to call again tomorrow.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think we should ban users that are reposting sales pitches from currently banned snake oil salesmen.

X2.

This thread is awesome. Dave thanks for starting it. However, I do have a very simple point to make. Frank wrote:

"Since Dave has already improved his pedaling efficiency through years of PowerCranks use this endeavor is just uncovering further inefficiencies that have been ignored not only by him but by most of you"


So you've been doing this for *years* how is that you still suck at cycling ? I'm serious. Most people figure this out pretty darn quick. And you live in a cycling hot bed as well just boggles my mind.

No good deed.... good luck Dave.

To start with for my age my bike is not that bad. I have been changing things though ovet the yeats to see if i could improve. I am just doing it again with a different approach. Will it improve my bike times who knows. But at least this time i have real data for the changes. And am able to work with frank who knows a lot more about this stuff than most. Technically with my race results i have reason to chsnge. Being ranked 7th in the nation in tri and third in duathlpn shows my bike is not that bad. But cannot hurt to try and improve. My last race with 175 cranks and lower rpm was encouraging.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Why? In many cases, for the same reason you used 200s all those years: because you believed that was what was most efficient.

Another reason is for what so many keep telling you regarding crank length: fit. There's data which shows that crank length has little effect on power, so the best reason for going with a particular length is for fit, whether for comfort, aerodynamics, or both. My own personal testing has shown that I have no significant statistical differences in power from 145 to 175mm (the range that I've tested), and no significant statistical differences in HR either. So if I can comfortably achieve my optimal position with 165s, why go any shorter?



Since you are so big on using results as a measure of knowledge ("why are all these people who are doing everything right not beating me", AA status, etc), how many people have you fit or re-fit and got improvements in their comfort, performance, or both? I've got well over 1000. Virtually every person I did a fit on over a 14 year period either got faster, and/or we solved discomfort issues. And I have yet to meet anyone who has gone to any of the recommended fitters currently working in my area who didn't either get faster or more comfortable, as well.

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

When you are beat, what leg of the race are you beat in?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Dave wrote:

" Technically with my race results i have reason to chsnge. Being ranked 7th in the nation in tri and third in duathlpn shows my bike is not that bad. But cannot hurt to try and improve."


<pink>Sheesh Dave which is it ? You are already "World Class" or you need to improve ? </pink>

We both know why, and I'm absolutely certain everyone else here knows as well.

Lest we ever forget how this began 11 years ago:

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

who cares, it is who is across the finish line first. What does get beat by mean? What AG? Even at worlds, were I got "beat", these top studs beat me in all three legs if that is what you are asking. So what, who cares.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, some of us are open minded that things change.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Meanwhile, myself (and many other competent fitters) have placed 1000s of riders on shorter cranks during those 11 years, all of whom are happier and FASTER for the change. And Dave is still asking for data. "Data, data everywhere, and not a drop to drink."

My experience with shorter cranks :

I had been fitted 4 times but was struggling to generate as much power in aero as sitting up. I bought a set of 165s and with help of various posters here, tinkered
Unlike some, I took the advice of some pretty knowledgeable people. I remember Jack Mott giving me some pointers. I distinctly remember your video on youtube with Erik. I remember PMing Jordan to whom I was a complete stranger. And he helped me.

I did play with the CT and HR and other methods of testing. I made the same mistakes others have made and are making. But that's ok, I did these in the context of real workouts. But I learned the limitations of HR. I did listen to guys like Tom A and Coggan oin how to test.

In 2014 I went to see Jim at ERO who confirmed I had found a pretty good position on my own. I say "on my own" but it's actually with the help of people here.
Big difference between me an others, I am pretty good at figuring out who to listen to. When Jim Martin, Bjorn, Tom A, James H, yourself....say something, I have a tendency to listen.

I try harder to confirm they are right than prove they are wrong. Figuring out who to listen to has served me well in my career. We are lucky to have some of the best here on ST. Many times I have reached out to true experts, many times by PM. I have never not got a response. Never. People are willing to help.

I was at Lionel Sander's fitting in 2016. He was talking about his struggles in aero position and it was so close to what I had experienced I told him to try 165s. 30 seconds later, on the fit bike, he tried and he loved. He never turned back.

I haver had many conversations with people on crank length. I would say 4 out of 5 preferred short cranks.

And by the way, you are mistaken on one thing. It's not data he seeks, it's attention. And ST seems to deliver every time.

So what, who cares??????

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

\
So you have done 1000's of folks, but looks like you have zero controlled data on anything as to why you did what you did. Why was the length no shorter or longer?
What was their optimum rpm with data. Yep, you are right, nothing to drink since no provide no data that can be controlled and reproduced. Just smoke and mirrors.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep