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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [CDriver] [ In reply to ]
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I can speak to nothing personally, but from various vicarious viewpoints it seems as though the results that the Faster tunnel produces are not especially reliable.

From what I understand, you do not have to attend an aero camp to use the ERO aero testing.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I've got the PI suit in size small. I'm 5'8, 145lbs and the fit is snug but comfortable. I've got a few (2-3) wrinkles right at the shoulder bend as Heath describes, which as others have said is likely because of the material needed to support flexibility for swimming and running. The suit in general is pretty sweet and the material unique. I don't have any aero testing or outdoor rides yet to make a determination on whether or not it is faster for me.

Chris
Last edited by: CPower: Feb 26, 14 7:42
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [CPower] [ In reply to ]
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I've just got my PI Octane suit in a size small too. I'm 5'8" and 140lbs and it feels like it fits very well, but I also have a few wrinkles around the shoulder/armpit area too. I also plan on testing it on my local TT course, and see how it works out. I'm optimistic and really look forward to sporting that bad boy on race day.

For those who tested well, did you also have small wrinkles around the shoulder/ armpit area? For those who tested poorly, did you have additional wrinkles in the sleeves? I'm trying to understand the difference. Thanks
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [smarty] [ In reply to ]
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smarty wrote:
I've just got my PI Octane suit in a size small too. I'm 5'8" and 140lbs and it feels like it fits very well, but I also have a few wrinkles around the shoulder/armpit area too. I also plan on testing it on my local TT course, and see how it works out. I'm optimistic and really look forward to sporting that bad boy on race day.

For those who tested well, did you also have small wrinkles around the shoulder/ armpit area? For those who tested poorly, did you have additional wrinkles in the sleeves? I'm trying to understand the difference. Thanks

Generally you are going to get a few wrinkle in the armpit area. Brian had some bad wrinkles on the front of the sleeve in addition to these.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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You guys are killing me, I'm all for marginal gains, but do a few wrinkles matter in ironman? Statement made Out of ignorance, rather than arrogance.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mdfletcher] [ In reply to ]
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The wrinkles are going to matter just as much in a 10k TT as they will in an Ironman. Aerodynamics doesn't just go away when you go long or go short. They will have a greater impact on watts at higher speed and a greater impact on total time at lower speed, but it is all relative.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mdfletcher] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe, Maybe not that's why it is good to get tested. The suit, which fit me and tested well, would save me between 4-5 minutes over 112 miles. For Brian almost the exact opposite would be true because the suit didn't fit him properly.

I've said this before, and I feel like it is worth reiterating, get tested. Disc wheel, $2000, might be marginally faster than an $80 cover. Getting tested, $500-1000, we've seen 10-45 watt savings. It is not sexy and carbon, but it will make you faster.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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How did the guys with P5 six's deal with all the stack changes? Did they slot the spacers? Or just put it low and jack up the bars another way?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mdfletcher] [ In reply to ]
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Mdfletcher wrote:
How did the guys with P5 six's deal with all the stack changes? Did they slot the spacers? Or just put it low and jack up the bars another way?

I was the only one with a p5, but it was a 3 and use a Ventus bar. So it was much easier to work on. I think the 6 is a fast bike but a major pain to work on and adjust. I think it is probably easier to test a p5-6 in the tunnel where you don't have to worry about brakes. You could definitely slot the spacer without causing any structural issues. If you were testing on the track I think you could also probably keep the rear brake attached and detach the front one as long as you aren't using the "hi" extensions. Someone with a bit more experience with 6 might be able to chime in here.

It can be tricky with any of the integrated bikes. I think the best ones have the ability to pedestal the pads and extensions together. It is hard to completely hide the cables that way though.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mdfletcher] [ In reply to ]
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Mdfletcher wrote:
You guys are killing me, I'm all for marginal gains, but do a few wrinkles matter in ironman? Statement made Out of ignorance, rather than arrogance.

Sadly... or happily... yes, they do. That's what gives people like you, with access to Slowtwitch, a decided advantage over your triathlon club colleague.

Go to a wind tunnel, or go and see Jim Manton at ERO Sports and try it.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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This may be random but as you all are talking about sleeves being faster (as long as not having wrinkles and etc) Do arm sleeves(used in hot races) reap the same kind of benefit? I got my P-09 on order so hearing all this stuff about it makes me :))))
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cmsamp3] [ In reply to ]
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I do not believe anyone tested them, nor do I recall seeing them tested anywhere. I'd say you probably have close to a 50/50 chance.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
The wrinkles are going to matter just as much in a 10k TT as they will in an Ironman. Aerodynamics doesn't just go away when you go long or go short. They will have a greater impact on watts at higher speed and a greater impact on total time at lower speed, but it is all relative.

Yes but Ironman is a different beast, I can assure you nobody at Ironman St George 2012 was riding the same position at mile 5 as they were at 50 as they were at 100. The same arguments always come from slammers as well. Well if your only reference of perspective is a 10k TT then you really have no business advising someone about what is fast at mile 90 of an Ironman. Sure a helmet sitting just the right way might be so fast but honestly, have you ever seen those peeps with a Lazer Tardiz? It seems to always go on crooked. This all begs the question, would "most" people benefit by simply spending the time training. For an Ironman I think the answer is yes. Maybe not so for a 10k TT.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Aero is aero and being aero is faster be it a 10k or a 180k.

If you can reduce your drag in a position that you can ride for 10k or 180k (and if you have a good bike fit these positions should be more or less the same but this is a different discussion for a different day) knocking off 10,20 30 or more grams of drag is going to make you faster at the end of the day no matter what the distance.

In fact the longer you go, one could argue that the more aero you are the less cumulative fatigue you'll have.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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But this misses my entire point. My entire point is that you can have the best position in the world, but Ironman is a long race. Maybe the super fast kit is tight and snug at mile 10, but after a long day of battle the fabric has bunched up in such a way that the 2 watts it saved u over the first 10 miles and was neutral from 10 to 60 is now costing you 3 watts at 60 - 112. Maybe that perfectly positioned head is now an aero disaster because of fatigue.

I think there can be some benefit here for athletes looking for fruit at the top, but people have said they were already starting to fatigue at the end of session. That is in a controlled environment. Imagine having them swim 2.4 and then biking 80 miles before going right into the aero testing, may some results not change? Who knows, maybe they change for the better but I think many people could benefit more by not sweating the small stuff and work on training instead.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Yes but Ironman is a different beast, I can assure you nobody at Ironman St George 2012 was riding the same position at mile 5 as they were at 50 as they were at 100. The same arguments always come from slammers as well. Well if your only reference of perspective is a 10k TT then you really have no business advising someone about what is fast at mile 90 of an Ironman. Sure a helmet sitting just the right way might be so fast but honestly, have you ever seen those peeps with a Lazer Tardiz? It seems to always go on crooked. This all begs the question, would "most" people benefit by simply spending the time training. For an Ironman I think the answer is yes. Maybe not so for a 10k TT.

Well, it's not either/or. No one is saying that you should aero test so much that it begins interfering with training time. To Kona qualify, you're going to have to have most of the major components nailed. Training, positioning, equipment, nutrition.

The whole point of using a very experienced fitter is exactly that -- to make sure that you can ride the position for as long as possible. And that's the art of aero fitting. The aim isn't to get you into the most aerodynamic position. It's to get you into the most rideable aerodynamic position for your goal distance.

Of course, anyone can just slam an Ironman athlete down and lower drag, Thomas. You should give more credit to the amount of experience behind a good fitter.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
but I think many people could benefit more by not sweating the small stuff and work on training instead.

That statement right there is missing the entire point.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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Andy,

No disrespect, but this is one of those things, unless you have done Ironman you can't have the proper perspective. You get the prospective by passing age groupers on the second loop of their first. You get it by going out in the middle of course and hiding in the bushes watching people when there is no crowd to lift their spirits. It is a tough sport. Are u suggesting there are fitters out there who can predict with perfect aerodynamic degradation how the body is going to change as their body fatigues. It isn't a question of the perfect comfortable position. Everyone experiences some level of fatigue and their position will incur changes. Some will lose so much water in their tissues that the aero kit that was tight is now flapping around.

I don't pretend to understand what it is like watching child birth. I could watch a million and never have the perspective gained from giving birth once.

Again I love the idea of ERO and the wind tunnel but it is about balance. For many it makes sense but for many it does not at the current moment . Maybe I myself don't have the necessary perspective to fully understand ERO - to that I say have someone bring me out and change my mind.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
How so? How many IMs to your name have you finished?

This does not deign a response.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
But this misses my entire point. My entire point is that you can have the best position in the world, but Ironman is a long race. Maybe the super fast kit is tight and snug at mile 10, but after a long day of battle the fabric has bunched up in such a way that the 2 watts it saved u over the first 10 miles and was neutral from 10 to 60 is now costing you 3 watts at 60 - 112. Maybe that perfectly positioned head is now an aero disaster because of fatigue.

I think there can be some benefit here for athletes looking for fruit at the top, but people have said they were already starting to fatigue at the end of session. That is in a controlled environment. Imagine having them swim 2.4 and then biking 80 miles before going right into the aero testing, may some results not change? Who knows, maybe they change for the better but I think many people could benefit more by not sweating the small stuff and work on training instead.

You are essentially saying that aerodynamics don't really matter and that you should train harder. I would expect more from you quite frankly. This argument has been hashed out a million times on here. As Andy said it is not an either or situation. Of course fitness is first but just because people fatigue doesn't mean that wind somehow begins to act differently.

Do you swim with a skin? Why not just get fitter and swim faster? Do you race in 12oz shoes or lightweight shoes? Same thing.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Maybe I myself don't have the necessary perspective to fully understand ERO - to that I say have someone bring me out and change my mind.

Ok, Now I see where this was all going.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, to start:

What is the listing in your signature?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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