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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Ex-cyclist and All,

Ex-cyclist wrote: "The only time the Air Attack MIGHT be faster is if you are riding so head down you can't see."

I might be worth noting that there is a way to keep your head down and be comfortable and be able to see.

http://www.view-speed.com

Use View-Speed Cyclops glasses and see your speed increase about 1 mph.



Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Kind of both.. Helmets are weird. And it kind of depends on how the TT and Tri position is set-up. If you are restricted to UCI regs you might actually end up a little higher in the front. It depends on how much power you can create 5cm behind the BB.

My position is pretty aggressive. Based on the ReTul I'm about 18.5 cm of drop. My eyeball and tape get it at 17.5. Jon is pretty aggressive too, but he tested best with the Bell Javelin and the Advantage 2. Brian has a stretched out position that Jim called a TT position, he was faster with the Giro Selector and Advantage 2.

So again it depends. The big take away was that the Advantage 2 is still a damn good helmet and was 2nd in almost everyone's test.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Thank you for all the aero info! [ In reply to ]
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It's awesome and great to learn from the testing that you guys did on the track! I've been a pure TT cyclist for the last 4 years and been on a few different TT bikes from a P2 to a P2SL to a BMC TM02. I recently bought a small Trek Speed Concept 7.2 and running a Hed Jet 4 in front and a Hed Jet Disc out back, with a Bell Javelin, Castelli short sleeved aero jersey and an Elite Chrono aero bottle on the seat tube. Pretty fast setup for the rolling hills here in the San Francisco peninsula.

How do you think a round bottle behind the seat neatly tucked away and pointing straight back would perform? Given that most of my rides are fairly short between 20-30 miles, having one bottle is all I need. I've tried all sorts of bottle placements with round and aero bottles, but still trying to decide which has the least drag penalty while having ease of access. If the bottle behind the seat is much better than my aero bottle on the seat tube, then I'd be inclined to switch over despite it being hard to reach. I know it's very personalized on position as I've read but if you have any general insights, I'd appreciate it!
Last edited by: Outlawdon: Jan 24, 14 13:53
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44], Carl Spackler [ In reply to ]
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maybe because it was a small???

Eric, what can you do? LG was nice enough to send us something no one commercially can get their hands on. At least they now know they'll sell at least 6 or 7 helmets.

On the flip side, it was also a big risk. Had it tested poorly or middle of the pack for the majority of people, like other helmets did, it could have hurt sales. They flipped a coin and came up winners.

Chris I'm pretty stretched out. My pre testing numbers were Hip Shoulder Elbow at 88 degrees and my elbow extension at 107 degrees. My post testing numbers are going to be even greater. My reach increased at least 4cm. There is zero room for me to move my Profile T3 aerobars further. They are as far forward as they can physically go. If you look at image 14 that's pre going out further, image 17 is final position. it's definitely not your typical triathlete elbows under the ears upper arms at close to 90.

I ride the narrow and stretched out is aero philosophy.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [FrostyJ] [ In reply to ]
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FrostyJ wrote:

I was a bit nervous about the repeatability and had the same concerns. I in a way got "lucky". It turned out that my original position was the fastest. Run #1 was my baseline run. Then as I started changing my position, lower, higher etc my drag went up fairly significantly. I was thinking there was something wrong with my baseline so I went back to the original setup and I was back to my original drag number. I think the reason I was able to repeat the run so well was because I have ridden the same position for two years so it feels very natural. I think your point is valid. If my new position would have been very different from the original I think it would have been hard for me to repeat as well as I did. Hopefully Jim or Andy will jump in and address the repeatabillity issue.


Our system has a variability of about 0.6% within a given set of laps. We call this "intra-run variability". We take, say 20 laps, remove the first 3 laps on each end, and measure the std deviation of the laps. Std Deviation/Avg Cda is about 0.6%.

Between runs, our system has 0.8% variability. We call this "inter-run variability". But this is under certain conditions: no air density transients, stable bike fit, and consistent riding. Air density transients, such as what happens if someone were to open a loading dock for prolonged periods of time, are deadly. Outdoor humid, warm air can easily change the air density by more than 2%. That's about 0.005 m^2.

A stable bike fit is one where you're not only comfortable enough not to shift around on the saddle, but that there is enough contact area on your saddle and elbow pads that you don't slip. The contact points must be positively stable -- translation: that it's impossible for you to move around. Jim's pretty good at making as sure as possible that his riders are stable on the bike. That said, occasionally we see examples of slip, shimmy and "one-cheek riding" around the turns. You have to stay vigilant as a test director. But sometimes people move around and you miss it.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Jan 24, 14 14:22
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44], Carl Spackler [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm, never thought about it from that angle. great point.

although I didn't go to camp, based on all of your reports I'm pretty happy about my equipment choices.... Pearl Izumi sleeved suit with tight arms and a small Giro Selector that I cram my head into.

desert dude wrote:
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maybe because it was a small???


Eric, what can you do? LG was nice enough to send us something no one commercially can get their hands on. At least they now know they'll sell at least 6 or 7 helmets.

On the flip side, it was also a big risk. Had it tested poorly or middle of the pack for the majority of people, like other helmets did, it could have hurt sales. They flipped a coin and came up winners.

Chris I'm pretty stretched out. My pre testing numbers were Hip Shoulder Elbow at 88 degrees and my elbow extension at 107 degrees. My post testing numbers are going to be even greater. My reach increased at least 4cm. There is zero room for me to move my Profile T3 aerobars further. They are as far forward as they can physically go. If you look at image 14 that's pre going out further, image 17 is final position. it's definitely not your typical triathlete elbows under the ears upper arms at close to 90.

I ride the narrow and stretched out is aero philosophy.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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I want to try that Sm Selector. I have Nick's M/L and it's a tad big on my head. I can't seem to find a Sm anywhere. I did pick up a Sm Bell Javelin and I might convert that to a selector.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44], Carl Spackler [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I have big-ish biceps and broad shoulders...you called me a body builder one time in a thread about IMTX a couple of years ago. What is the secret to me getting faster position wise?

You mentioned in one of your more recent posts about moving the cockpit more forward and out. Do you feel this is sustainable for an IM distance event?


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I want to try that Sm Selector. I have Nick's M/L and it's a tad big on my head. I can't seem to find a Sm anywhere. I did pick up a Sm Bell Javelin and I might convert that to a selector.

we can hook something up if you like

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
desert dude wrote:
for 80% of the people, the P09 was the helmet.

maybe because it was a small??? I couldn't fit that thing on my big melon

I haven't tried the P09, but a similar thing can be said with the Bell Javelin. The Jav is very narrow. I have a relatively narrow face and I could not wear a size medium with sunglasses.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Haha. You're so buff!

I think it's very sustainable. It's pretty comfy and easy to hold. With the bars angled up ~5 degrees it locks your elbows in.
EDIT: I could ride even more extended if I had extensions that were long enough.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 24, 14 15:34
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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:) So Brian, your greatest takeaway from the aero session was that ladies should wear much tighter tops...

Well I say we're about done on aero research... nothing more to be learned...

Thank you, fantastic research, I shall be informing all (decent looking) ladies of this vital fact.... and that logically the tighter you go the faster you go...

Cheers
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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shadwell wrote:
:) So Brian, your greatest takeaway from the aero session was that ladies should wear much tighter tops...

Well I say we're about done on aero research... nothing more to be learned...

Thank you, fantastic research, I shall be informing all (decent looking) ladies of this vital fact.... and that logically the tighter you go the faster you go...

Cheers

You missed one thing. When in doubt. Ride a P09.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [FrostyJ] [ In reply to ]
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You missed one thing. When in doubt. Ride a P09.[/quote]
Reaches for texter to label something P09.......
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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I achieved a stretched out fit using the 3T Wide Aero Clamps you recommended and then putting some pad holders on there with special holes to get them as forward as possible. So, wide enough elbows (which also allows you to really shrug those shoulders in), and as Brian said tilted up pads to "lock" it in. No muscular stress holding that position.

-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
I have big-ish biceps and broad shoulders...you called me a body builder one time in a thread about IMTX a couple of years ago. What is the secret to me getting faster position wise?

You mentioned in one of your more recent posts about moving the cockpit more forward and out. Do you feel this is sustainable for an IM distance event?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have plans for building up a database of the results from all your testing? With so many athletes, positions, bikes etc. you have a potentially very powerful tool. Just like you found that the P-09 worked well for most athletes with some machine learning / data mining tools and enough data you could go into a test session knowing that athletes with a larger build on a P5 are most likely to get savings with a BTA bottle over an aero mount, but it might be the other way around on a Speed Concept.

I think that over the long term, if you collect good data, like bike, position, height, weight, race distance, etc. then you will have an amazing tool that will allow you to make more effective choices in the limited number of experiments you have but also people can make purchases that are more likely to benefit them even if they haven't been tested.

Malcolm
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [malramsay64] [ In reply to ]
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I'd second that. Not everyone lives near a wind tunnel. I'm sure there would be a market for people such as my self for advice based on specified permitters.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
Wow, I'm just blown away by the response this thread has gotten.

As Heath and Brian have mentioned, this was first of its kind for aero field testing. Our aim is to bring aerodynamics to the 99%. Aero testing is more accessible to the AGer now than ever before. We are seeing people improve their times significantly after just one session.

And, contrary to what a lot of people imagine, it works for fast and slow riders. It's certainly not just for pros anymore

What Heath and Brian have done is simply to have a party where everyone just gets faster. A cool idea, and one that we're very happy about.

Andy, Jim and Robert,

Since last year, when we worked together, have you gained insight into how water affects the drag of suits? We all noticed drag decreased the longer I rode, attributing the decrease in drag to a rider stirring the air, drafting himself/herself. We've also noted how changes to the way fabric is finished alter the drag. Sweat saturation or dousing with water might alter the drag of fabric. Any data suggesting an increase or decrease related to fabric water content?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [malramsay64] [ In reply to ]
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malramsay64 wrote:
Do you have plans for building up a database of the results from all your testing?

Hmmm. Perhaps it's because I have to worry about human subjects research but I would think there could be some potential privacy issues to resolve. You'd be on more solid ground talking about aggregate summaries and tendencies without getting into details that would identify a particular test subject (unless they're willing to out themselves).
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [DamonHenry] [ In reply to ]
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Damon: I've never looked at that variable. Hmmm.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
I have big-ish biceps and broad shoulders...you called me a body builder one time in a thread about IMTX a couple of years ago. What is the secret to me getting faster position wise?

You mentioned in one of your more recent posts about moving the cockpit more forward and out. Do you feel this is sustainable for an IM distance event?


I'm a pretty big dude and I got a pretty low CdA in a pretty traditional position. When I stretched it it hurt my neck. The big thing we learned is you just never know what works until you test it. You are probably pretty dialed in and just need a few tweaks. If I was in your place I would try to figure out a way to get by the Velodrome and schedule some time if you have any events near there.

EDIT: Not surprisingly, after looking at a couple of the side images of you, there is nothing bad sticking out. The upper arm is basically at 90 degrees so you could probably extend a bit and go a touch higher with the hands like Brian suggested. What has been found is that arms perpendicular to the ground trend towards the slow side since you are putting two cylinders directly in line with the air. Angling them a bit tends to test on average faster. Since you have some upper body mass a sleeved suit would probably work on you as well.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Last edited by: Ex-cyclist: Jan 24, 14 19:49
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
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Tony5 wrote:
I'd second that. Not everyone lives near a wind tunnel. I'm sure there would be a market for people such as my self for advice based on specified permitters.

it is not possible to make specific recommendations to people based on other peoples' data. there are trends yes, but the over arching message of any aero testing is that individuality IS the message. and fyi, the overwhelming majority of tunnel customers fly.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I want to try that Sm Selector. I have Nick's M/L and it's a tad big on my head. I can't seem to find a Sm anywhere. I did pick up a Sm Bell Javelin and I might convert that to a selector.

Can we take it for granted that the smallest helmet you can fit into will be the fastest? Any data on helmet size from Aero Camp?

I'm curious because I accidentally ended up with a M/L Selector that was mislabeled S/M. It's also a little big on my head. However, the M/L with the deep tail is the only aero helmet I've ever tried on that sits flush against my shoulders/back, filling in the usual gap there. It also covers more of my face. I'm sure you take a small hit on frontal area with the larger size, but not much if your head position is low. I'm wondering if filling in that gap and shielding more of your face and shoulders helps your Cd more than it hurts your frontal area.

Wishful thinking on my part?

CodyBeals.com | Instagram | YouTube | Facebook
Ventum | Martin's | 4iiii | Shimano | HED | Wattie Ink | ZiZU | Keystone Communications
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Cody Beals] [ In reply to ]
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Cody Beals wrote:
desert dude wrote:
I want to try that Sm Selector. I have Nick's M/L and it's a tad big on my head. I can't seem to find a Sm anywhere. I did pick up a Sm Bell Javelin and I might convert that to a selector.


Can we take it for granted that the smallest helmet you can fit into will be the fastest? Any data on helmet size from Aero Camp?

I'm curious because I accidentally ended up with a M/L Selector that was mislabeled S/M. It's also a little big on my head. However, the M/L with the deep tail is the only aero helmet I've ever tried on that sits flush against my shoulders/back, filling in the usual gap there. It also covers more of my face. I'm sure you take a small hit on frontal area with the larger size, but not much if your head position is low. I'm wondering if filling in that gap and shielding more of your face and shoulders helps your Cd more than it hurts your frontal area.

Wishful thinking on my part?

We didn't test different helmet size specifically. We did speculate a bit that might have have been why the P-09 tested well on me. The only one we had was a S-M 52-56 I normal wear a M-L. We have no real way of knowing without going back and testing both to make sure. A smaller helmet will have a lower frontal area which MAY test better.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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How does the Selector compare to the WingSpan? I currently have the wingspan but like the color/style of one selector model. Would it be an upgrade?

Also from your testing, could you say position 1st, Clothing and helmet 2/3rd? Or is it more Position 1st, clothing then wheel & helmet would be a wash with the hydration/bento box/etc. ? Which means they play those small role overall.

Thank you for your feedback.
Last edited by: flyrunride: Jan 25, 14 5:50
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