Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would also like to add that rules of thumb will get you a long way.

I've never tested anything but just went off the ramblings of the gurus here and my base run (current setup, no changes) was .225.

Once I started making changes, the lowest I saw was just under .220...like .217 or something and that was simply from going from a Med to a Small tri top. I tried all kinds of things but my massive (chick magnet) guns would just not allow me to get much lower.

I was also not willing to change my fit for the testing. I've tried going lower and it was unsustainable so knowing that fact really sped up the testing process. I would say before going testing, figure out what you are willing to change first regardless of aero or not as it will save a lot of time. I've worked on my fit for some time and know what works and what doesn't.

BUT....some huge things I learned was what hydration setups were neutral and what were not. I was able to test a ton of different setups and figure out what options I had available to me without impacting me too much. That was SUPER info to have. So it's not always about lowering your CdA a bunch but often what impact different decisions in your setup have.

I was also able to validate my current setup. Oh...and I learned my skin suit for time trialing was SLOWER than my trip top because it fit like shit. It was the smallest size I could fit into. BUT, it still wrinkled in the shoulders. So, because I have to ride in a team kit, I only have two options, tri top in a TT (which is lame) or have the suit custom tailored.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Derf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Derf wrote:
Me? It's not an either/or! I'm working with a wired ptap, much less tunnel time or superwonderbling. :) Virtual Elevation and a stopwatch are my only way of testing things. :)

It is funny you say that, because that exactly the way this whole project got started in the first place! VE works, it just takes time like you said.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You could always get a new team with better clothing?!?!?!

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ex-cyclist wrote:
Derf wrote:

Me? It's not an either/or! I'm working with a wired ptap, much less tunnel time or superwonderbling. :) Virtual Elevation and a stopwatch are my only way of testing things. :)


It is funny you say that, because that exactly the way this whole project got started in the first place! VE works, it just takes time like you said.

I started with a wired Power Tap so I didn't even need a stopwatch. A Power Tap is perhaps an ideal tool because you don't have to worry about drivetrain losses. But it's absolutely true that a wind tunnel or the great setup at VSC will be faster, in part because the environment is more controlled and in part because there's someone to guide you through changes -- I had to figure that stuff out on my own by trial-and-error-and-trial-and-error-and-error-and-error. And, doing this kind of thing in a "camp" setup where you can see lots of other people testing can be eye-opening. It really hammers into your head that things that work on one person don't necessarily work on someone else, and that the eyeball is a poor wind tunnel. It's humbling when you realize that everything you know is wrong.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, I meant race results by stopwatch, but that's neither here nor there. :)

I'm lucky enough to be able to borrow from your (and other early adopters) efforts and try to improve on them. We'll see how that goes. :) But it's assuredly not for everyone.

Thanks for the work thus far.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Two of the camper lost nearly 45 and 67 watts of drag just due to position alone." Holy crap!

"My CdA went from .2643 down to .2267" Congratulations, that's a big drop!

Sounds like an awesome event. Too bad it's on the West Coast, hard to justify a trip all the way across the country. Will have to stick to "Chunging" it!
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Derf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Derf wrote:
I'm lucky enough to be able to borrow from your (and other early adopters) efforts and try to improve on them. We'll see how that goes. :) But it's assuredly not for everyone.
You mean, not everyone has the patience to do this on their own? Yeah, I agree.

Quote:
Thanks for the work thus far.
Besides Heath and Brian and AndyF and Jim Manton and the folks who went to the camp and have been willing to share their findings, you should also remember to thank Tom A. and Alex Simmons and Adam Haile and a bunch of guys who showed this stuff works at an early stage when a lot of others were skeptical. I'm pretty far down the totem pole.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
if you were looking to upgrade a helmet, i understand it would be a bit of a crapshoot, but based on what you have seen, would you say the LG 09 is better than the wing 57?
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't know if Heath will say it, but I'll say yea that the odds are likely in your favor.

----
@adamwfurlong
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.

[removed an embarrassing comma!]
Last edited by: cerebis: Jan 23, 14 20:29
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [afurlong] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
interesting! thanks :)
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You control for that by hardening up and not letting your form slip. Observe - Tony Martin, and Keinle, and Rapp

cerebis wrote:
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside, they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [gradiology] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
on my test, the first thing we did was go wider on the aero/elbow pads. The made a signifigant drop in CDa. It's not clear whether or not that particular change became aero or if it became more stable and less wobbly which inturn made me faster with less drag. Move the pads out was a definite shocker to all.

Powered By HD Coaching
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
cerebis wrote:
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside, they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.

Well, first, that's something that can happen with wind tunnel measurement, too. Second, one of the virtues of field testing is that you can often tell whether your position is sustainable for the targeted length of your event; third, even if you can't hold that position for the whole time, the times when you can hold it will either be faster for the same power or require less power for the same speed, which can help your run; and fourth, sometimes you have to just HTFU.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
it did not test well on most. In fact it added drag even if it wore pretty wrinkle free and tight.

Powered By HD Coaching
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
relentless wrote:
a definite shocker to all.

I love these kinds of stories. The eye is a poor wind tunnel.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jonfl] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
it was a crap shoot. The Torhan did not test well on me with the Scott Plasma, but did test well on others. The Torpedo tested better on me than on others. With the bottle and bike frame it appears to have more to do with the body composition of the rider than the bike frame.

Powered By HD Coaching
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
each run was 12 laps or so. The first 2 laps were getting on the track, up to speed and zeroing out the PM. The next 10 laps were the test. Each lap was 250m. 4laps =1km and they were ridden sub threshold but not social ride pace. Do 8-13 runs and you're getting a decent workout. if you weren't in decent shape the testing begins to take a toll. I know on run ten I was thinking this is fun and this sucks. On my 13th run I was thinking this sucks but at least I'm learning a ton.

If it's a sub optimal position, as when reach was extended out, or stack lowered too much, just like if you dropped 20mm off your stack, you know fairly quickly if it's doable or not.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hmmmm, interesting. I thought the T30 would be good to go on virtually any frame as long as it was flush to the frame or at least very, very close. I didn't think about the rider at all. This thread is really beneficial, thank you to all who participated
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not sure if you were around when I was testing, but I also ended up faster with elbow pads out. Allowed for a much more natural and sustainable shrug as there was room for my spine/neck to relax between my shoulders.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
define starting width and ending width, i think this context is important...............

fyi i had tunnel results in the past that(even with the noise of my holding same position)consistently show narrow is much better for me. the caveat is that my narrow and a lot of triathlete's narrow are not the same definition. at 11cm c-c as base point +2cm= 12w hit , +4cm=18w hit +8cm =14w hit. so, going wider was starting to get faster, yet it was so much slower than going really narrow that it was a non-starter for me. I now have teh means to go wider yet so sometime i might try to field test that to see if anything helps. i should add that at 10 deg the +4cm was faster by 3w but given that most of teh time i will not experience that deg of yaw, it was not worth any consiration or exploration. I saw similar results for the other fellow with me. we had to tape his arms together as his pads were too wide and he was having trouble due t that in keeping arms together. narrow in this conotation is forearms pressed together, no gap
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
for 80% of the people, the P09 was the helmet. No other helmet came close to that sort of success rate.

If you are going to bet on a helmet without testing, your odds are pretty decent betting on the P09. Not 100%. It either worked or it didn't work well, but it worked for a lot of people.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RChung wrote:
cerebis wrote:
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside, they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.


Well, first, that's something that can happen with wind tunnel measurement, too. Second, one of the virtues of field testing is that you can often tell whether your position is sustainable for the targeted length of your event; third, even if you can't hold that position for the whole time, the times when you can hold it will either be faster for the same power or require less power for the same speed, which can help your run; and fourth, sometimes you have to just HTFU.

I agree with the above. I was at this event as well and my lowest drag numbers was achieved when I shrugged. Low drag is nice but shrugging like I did is not sustainable over 56 or 112 miles. However, knowing that shrugging benefits me allows me to use it selectively. On flat and windy sections it is good to know that if I suck it up there is a good rate of return.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I looked through the pictures and didn't see any, but did anyone have a Giro Advantage or Advantage 2? Those helmets seems to always pop up at track World Cup with teams that presumably have access to testing facilities. I tried one against a Selector and the Selector was 7-10 Watts slower through a range of yaw angles.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AaronT wrote:
I looked through the pictures and didn't see any, but did anyone have a Giro Advantage or Advantage 2? Those helmets seems to always pop up at track World Cup with teams that presumably have access to testing facilities. I tried one against a Selector and the Selector was 7-10 Watts slower through a range of yaw angles.

Most of us tried the A2 and it tested overall well. It seems to be a nice "go to" helmet if you don't know what to use. The A2 w/o visor tied with the Javelin w/visor as the fastest helmet for me. It should be noted that the A2 was a size medium and the Javelin a large. I think a medium Javelin would have tested a little faster on me.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
Quote Reply

Prev Next