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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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flyrunride wrote:
How does the Selector compare to the WingSpan? I currently have the wingspan but like the color/style of one selector model. Would it be an upgrade?

Also from your testing, could you say position 1st, wheel 2nd and helmet 3rd? Or is it more Position 1st, wheel & helmet would be a wash with the hydration/bento box/etc. ? Which means they play those small role overall.

Thank you for your feedback.

Really, as we've said multiple times, it depends. In GENERAL the selector performed better than the wingspan. This may or may not be the case for you. It would probably not be a horrible bet though. Plus if you like the looks, then that a bonus.

We didn't test wheels, but an optimized helmet can likely save you the same as a good aero front wheel. Helmets and clothing play a huge roll, but for both fit is the key.

So Position is the HUGE number 1, I'd put wheels as number 2 since that is not really rider dependant, Helmet and Clothing is close to being tied for 3.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Much appreciated, I guess time to get the selector and possibly sell the WingSpan (unless I'd need it for hot races).
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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The trend was the that Rudy helmets for the most part were solid mid pack performers, again YMMV.

After seeing the trends, when I see people racing with a Rudy aero helmet, my thought now is that for 80% of the people it's not the fastest helmet. But is the person I'm racing against in the 20% or the 80%?

Now the flip side of that is that the Selector wasn't always the fastest helmet either. You could wonder the same thing about the people you are racing who are wearing the Selector.

It's been said multiple times on here but is worth repeating. Unless you are going to do field testing or aero testing when you put on your aero helmet, you don't know if it's helping you a little or it's helping you a lot. Unfortunately my custom painted Rudy Wingspan is an aero brick on me. On you it could be The helmet or it could not.

The wingspan was talked about a bit more earlier in this thread iirc.

I think if you are planning on testing it's Position 1st, helmet 2nd then clothing or storage and then switch them. You need to carry fluid and food. Personally I' waiting on buying any aero clothes for LC racing until later this year. I strongly suspect there is a lot in development right now and waiting a few months may be the smarter option.

On the velodrome, since it's close to zero yaw, all wheels are going to do well. IMO there is enough data out there on wheels, that testing a wheel is a wasted run. I'd personally use that run to answer other questions.

EDIT: I see Heath was typing at the same time I was. Now you've got 2 different opinions on what to test. Not trying to confuse the issue, each person has different testing needs & priorities.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 25, 14 6:09
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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I've used the Selector for 3 seasons now and I've never had a race where I thought it was too hot. Is it hotter than a road helmet or the Specialized TT2? Yes, but I've never felt like it was a hinderance. YMMV



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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Id keep it and just wait for the P09 to be available to the masses
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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Not trying to pull traffic away from this thread, but for those that are interested, here is a link to a post with my personal data, thoughts, and trends. It's a bit too long to just copy and paste. Of course as said over and over again, it's all individual, but you can learn a lot and make some educated guess by seeing the results of others. A lot of the info in there I or other have discussed in this thread already but there is also some other fun info.

Aero Camp: The Data
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Can you tell us what you do to verify proper power meter operation? It's clearly very critical for the test.

Jim@EROsports wrote:


Andy, it's even more true now than ever before that speed doesn't matter for anyone who wants to take advantage of aero testing - heck Desert Dude's power meter has been lying to him for who knows how long, so he's much slower than he thought! :-)
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44], Carl Spackler [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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>>I ride the narrow and stretched out is aero philosophy

Narrow is aero, IMO. Thanks for the info. When is your next camp?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:


Between runs, our system has 0.8% variability. We call this "inter-run variability". But this is under certain conditions: no air density transients, stable bike fit, and consistent riding. Air density transients, such as what happens if someone were to open a loading dock for prolonged periods of time, are deadly. Outdoor humid, warm air can easily change the air density by more than 2%. That's about 0.005 m^2.


Congrats on the business venture.

Volleyball games played on the infield are problematic when trying to achieve a 0.8% inter-run variability, then? How does ~3% uncertainty effect results interpretation?

Here's some ambient condition data from the venue where you tested on a day where no volleyball games were being played and there were three people in the facility:

http://biketechreview.com/images/ambient_conditions_ADT_070208.png



best of luck going forward.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [corneliused] [ In reply to ]
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Great question. Rich Sawiris at Wheelbuilder.com insures our Powertaps are calibrated properly; not sure there's anyone in the business who understands them better. We like using PT's for a few reasons, one of them being they don't drift. We've seen many a pm come through testing that we're clearly not calibrated properly, and it does have obvious effects. We had it happen at this camp, in fact. I absolutely agree with DCRainmaker's assertion that a majority of athletes are riding around with improperly calibrated pm's.

This has been enough of an issue that we're ready to insist everyone use only our Powertaps to insure consistent results. We've also considered offering a calibration service, but time is an issue for us.

Beyond that, the pm being used is zero'd before every run. We definitely can see when a pm drifts and, trust me, some very obviously drift during a test.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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We check in real-time at all times, and adjust before every run if necessary. The only time we see those changes is when doors are left open. We've done thousands of laps over hundreds of hours and never see changes that dramatic unless a door is left open, and it's pretty obvious when it happens.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:

Here's some ambient condition data from the venue where you tested on a day where no volleyball games were being played and there were three people in the facility:

http://biketechreview.com/images/ambient_conditions_ADT_070208.png



best of luck going forward.

Excellent plot and it nicely illustrates the issue! The plot shows a couple of things: first, that as long as you record the data you can adjust for air density. Second, that although there are often changes in air density over the course of testing, there's usually a secular trend which makes accounting for it easier. Third, you can see transient spikes (like, at ~12:40pm, ~1:05pm, and a smaller spike at ~1:35pm). The good things are that the spikes are transient and obvious. Bottom line, it's not like air density varies randomly -- air density appears to vary in predictable ways and when it doesn't (like, the spikes) you can spot it and either correct for it or handle it in another way. This is a great graph.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you!

You raise a good point that measuring air density plays an important role in making sure the CdA measurements are solid.

We do measure it continuously, and incorporate it into the calculation. But what we don't like is when storm fronts come in in the middle of a run. It's the quick transients that hurt. We've also tested *a lot* at the VELO Sports Center. Maybe 20,000 laps. And we see our Stig runs, that keep coming in at the same CdA +/- 0.8% when we're careful.

AndyF
http://alphamantis.com
#findyouraero
Last edited by: AndyF: Jan 25, 14 8:19
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I seem to recall dcrainmaker took a pretty big hit with a bta bottle in testing the profile mount(though it seemed like it also could have just been the profile mount). I wish there was some way of knowing whether or not a bta is a good call. The 5 watt hit you saw is higher than just a regular fram bottle, is it not? There has also been speculation that a bta is better at yaw, so doesn't this demonstrate partially a shortcoming of the testing?

Was there any talk of trying to create a system that created a way to test higher yaw on the velodrome?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
Thank you!

You raise a good point that measuring air density plays an important role in making sure the CdA measurements are solid.

We do measure it continuously, and incorporate it into the calculation. But what we don't like is when storm fronts come in in the middle of a run. It's the quick transients that hurt. We've also tested *a lot* at the VELO Sports Center. Maybe 20,000 laps. And we see our Stig runs, that keep coming in at the same CdA +/- 0.8% when we're careful.

I'm sorry, sir. What is this "storm front" thing you speak of? When I purchased my SoCal home I was assured by the realtor that we don't experience such phenomena here. :-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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In the A2 testing we went to this summer, a round bottle on the seat tube was a 9w hit. I know others where the BTA was a watt saver. Again, it varies. If you look at pic 4, every single person said no way is that going to test fast (BTA sticking up in the wind). Yet it tested fast and faster than the Xlab torpedo that tucked so you could hardly see it.

As the yaw goes out you normally see a reduction., we saw that quite often at A2. If it was better at baseline 19/20 runs it was better at yaw. The velodrome isn't 0 yaw. Jim and Andy can better tell you what yaw it averages out to be, maybe 2-3 is my guess.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 25, 14 9:30
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Excellent plot and it nicely illustrates the issue! The plot shows a couple of things: first, that as long as you record the data you can adjust for air density. Second, that although there are often changes in air density over the course of testing, there's usually a secular trend which makes accounting for it easier. Third, you can see transient spikes (like, at ~12:40pm, ~1:05pm, and a smaller spike at ~1:35pm). The good things are that the spikes are transient and obvious. Bottom line, it's not like air density varies randomly -- air density appears to vary in predictable ways and when it doesn't (like, the spikes) you can spot it and either correct for it or handle it in another way. This is a great graph.

DA is light green in the second panel of the plot and the variation doesn't look to be monotonic. Measuring DA is nice, but measuring q is probably better?

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
And we see our Stig runs, that keep coming in at the same CdA +/- 0.8% when we're careful.

I agree that field testing can be done well.

I guess I look at it from more of a customer perspective. During this test, one individual did a repeat run that was approximately a 2-3% delta. How does that effect interpretation of their results?

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
DA is light green in the second panel of the plot and the variation doesn't look to be monotonic. Measuring DA is nice, but measuring q is probably better?
Yeah, monotonicity would be nice but what's more important is that the time scale of the change is slow enough that you can pick out a secular trend (and then adjust for it). I think what's being continuously monitored is temp, pressure, and humidity so rho is calculated.

BikeTechReview wrote:
I agree that field testing can be done well.

I guess I look at it from more of a customer perspective. During this test, one individual did a repeat run that was approximately a 2-3% delta. How does that effect interpretation of their results?
Well, I'm not Andy or Jim or Brian or Heath but when I see large and unexpected deltas in any of the work I do (and, of course, most of my work doesn't have anything to do with aero measurement) I have to look around to see if it can be explained. That's just good analytical practice.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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2-3% is a significant change, for sure.

Your point is well taken -- it would be hard to find any subtle deltas in that kind of noise. We are still sifting through the detailed ANT+ log files to find evidence of a power meter that wasn't properly zeroed. We can backtrack and redo the calcs, if that's the case.

I promise to share the findings.

AndyF
http://alphamantis.com
#findyouraero
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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I went back and looked at the run list and based on the notes we have it wasn't a true back to baseline as there was a different helmet involved that what the baseline was. Unless the notes are wrong, I don't think there was really much going on there that would have raised any eyebrows.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Heath-
If you are referring to my two differing baselines, they were done with same position (extensions up, dropped 2cm) and same helmet (Rudy Wingspan).

If not, disregard the above.

ETA: Just went back and checked the testing report, "Setup #7" is incorrectly labelled as testing #2 + Wing57, it actually was a complete return to #2. Would have liked to test the Wing57, but it was not down at the track yet. Notes were likely taken with Rudy, Wing, or poor hand writing. Shot Brian an email asking to have that corrected for the sake of other people looking at the data a couple days back..
Last edited by: JTolandTRI: Jan 25, 14 13:15
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
My CdA went from .2643 down to .2267

A CxA reduction of ~14% is extraordinary. Here are two pics that reduced CxA by roughly half the magnitude you are reporting:



http://www.biketechreview.com/...riding_arms_back.png

Do you have images that compare the CxA=0.264 and the CxA= 0.227 runs?

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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Heath is pictured in 16 and 20 and the captions talk about some of his changes. Sounds like clothes and helmet were a big part of things http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
We check in real-time at all times, and adjust before every run if necessary.

Before reading further - please keep in mind that I'm really not trying to be a pain in the ass here; but rather, I'm trying to help folks put these results that have been posted into some sort of context.

If it's not too much bother, please talk more about what you actually check in real time _prior_ to a run, and what are the criteria/thresholds that are used to determine if an adjustment is necessary.

How does the facility exit egress/ingress rate during a volleyball match (images show a volleyball tournament occuring during testing) affect transient wind patterns?

Of the folks that tested, how many did repeat runs of the same configuration? We've seen one individual do a repeat with a reported (as of 1/25/14) 2-3% change in CxA. I'd be curious to hear more about the practical/typical/average-non-stig-person repeatability of the methodology implemented at this venue.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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