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Ask us anything about Aero Camp
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A lot of you have seen the information start trickle out from the AeroCamp that Brian Stover of Accelerate3 an I put on with the help of Jim Manton of ERO Sports and Andy Froncioni of Alpamantis. This was a first of it's kind camp and will help serve as a model for other such camps around the world using the Alphamantis system. For all of us I feel like it was really about bringing this technology and experiences to the masses. It is something that was proven to be very valuable for the age grouper and not just something that pros have access to.

First of all I want to thank the staff at the Stub Hub Velo Sports center for clearing the facility and making it possible to test most of the day on Saturday and all day on Sunday. Also a big thanks to Jim and Bryan from Ero Sports for going above and beyond the call of duty to help us pull this thing off.

The best thing I can do is to try to summarize over 140 runs by saying, you think know, but you really don't. We were constantly surprised by what worked for people. Often times what worked for one person would be much worse for others. We found a general trend in helmets and ones that tested consistently well across the board. However, the best helmet for me was not what worked best for Brian.

Some rules of thumb, position trumps all. Two of the camper lost nearly 45 and 67 watts of drag just due to position alone. Next would be helmets and then clothing. After personally seeing a nearly 18 watt drop I think that clothing is really the next frontier. Again it has to fit well, otherwise the needle moves in the opposite direction. Hydration was interesting as well. Some products work better on some frames than they do others. Big round straws are bad and a BTA bottle generally was neutral.

I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot of stuff and those that attended will be able to chime in with their own data. Personally I'm happy to share mine and I'm sure Brian will be too.

My CdA went from .2643 down to .2267

The story on the front page is here:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html

Just a note to the aero geeks, I can speak in CdA but for most people watts seem to work better. I am all for getting people to think in CdA though.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Heath and Brian. congrats on a terrific camp. We look forward to working with you a ton more!

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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Really interested in any feedback on the Wing57. With visor vs. without. How did it match up overall. Camp looks great. A nice addition to bike fit options, well done.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [stxtridad] [ In reply to ]
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The Wing 57 we had there was one without a visor. I believe 5 or 6 people tested it. It tested pretty well on some people and just ok on others. It was definitely faster overall than the wingspan though. Again, helmets are very individual, on one person it was close ( probably within the margin of error of the best helmet on that person).



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [stxtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I think the general consensus when talking about tests with the Rudy Wing57 fell along these lines:
a. It's consistently faster than the Wingspan
b. It's normally not the fastest
c. Overall, it seemed a bit underwhelming given the hype it recieved
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Did you test any aero road helmets? And if yes, we're there any trends for relative rankings?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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This is all very interesting. It sounds like a great experience. I would have seriously considered attending if it were within driving distance for me. Had any of the participants been to a wind tunnel before? If so, did this offer many additional gains or refinement?

Also, I think the additional attention to aerodynamic clothing for triathlon in the last few years has been really interesting. Were there any noticeable trends among clothing? I know sleeves have been getting a lot of attention recently. I'm just wondering about the differences between true TT skinsuits, aero tri suits, and standard tri suits. I'll be making a trip to the wind tunnel in the next couple months and I'm hoping to test out a few different clothing options, both for tri and TT.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds like the gains that were made were well worth it! A 40 watt improvement in power output would take a lot of training.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [wens] [ In reply to ]
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A few aero road helmets got tested. The consensus was you can do a triathlon in them but they are not faster than a real aero helmet. iirc we nicknamed one of the aero road helmets "The Salad Bowl" bc that was it's best use.

An interesting find was we did have one person who's regular road helmet tested out faster than their aero helmet. We found an aero helmet that worked extremely well, much better than the road aero helmet.

I think the what was proven is a real aero helmet is substantially faster than aero road helmet.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 23, 14 10:35
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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The fast one is the P-09, yea? Awfully similar in shape & construction to the Scott Split.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [wens] [ In reply to ]
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wens wrote:
Did you test any aero road helmets? And if yes, we're there any trends for relative rankings?

A few people tested the Evade and it tested well for them but not as well as the best aero helmet for them. I did not personally test any aero road helmets. No one tested the LG or Giro since those trends had already been pretty well established. GENERALLY, the Evade>LG>Air Attack. Again it is very athlete dependant (splitting hairs too) and a good aero helmet is going to be better. The Evade and Giro do better than the LG if you are looking straight down. That being said, if you are looking straight down you are a danger to yourself and others. The suggestion was made that if on is to wear the AA to get it without the visor. Also the holes on the helmet where a visor attaches when not running the visor cause drag.

I tweeted this right after camp: Having a helmet sponsor is potentially a big liability.

The only way to know for sure is to cross your fingers and go with the trends or get tested. I think Jim mentioned in another thread the P-09 was the star of the show. But it was fastest on only 75% of the people. Not a bad trend though.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [grosso27] [ In reply to ]
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Closer in shape to the McClaren. ;)



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [dkidwell] [ In reply to ]
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dkidwell wrote:
This is all very interesting. It sounds like a great experience. I would have seriously considered attending if it were within driving distance for me. Had any of the participants been to a wind tunnel before? If so, did this offer many additional gains or refinement?

Also, I think the additional attention to aerodynamic clothing for triathlon in the last few years has been really interesting. Were there any noticeable trends among clothing? I know sleeves have been getting a lot of attention recently. I'm just wondering about the differences between true TT skinsuits, aero tri suits, and standard tri suits. I'll be making a trip to the wind tunnel in the next couple months and I'm hoping to test out a few different clothing options, both for tri and TT.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds like the gains that were made were well worth it! A 40 watt improvement in power output would take a lot of training.

As Heath says and the reasons I searched out a good (consumer available) option last Fall, clothing is the next frontier in aerodynamic gains for triathlon.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. I even like the answer.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [wens] [ In reply to ]
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I did. I was considering one for crit/road races. I tested my (everyday road helmet) Giro Aeon against the Evade, Rocket, Wingspan, P09. The Aeon beat all but the P09. I guess Giro has a right to include it in their aero lineup. HOWEVER, there were a few surprising results in my tests. I am guessing that since I am a straight cyclist testing a TT position, some things may test differently for me than for others so keep that in mind.

________________________________________________

Coach Brain: Accelerate 3 ; Incoherent Ramblings
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
A lot of you have seen the information start trickle out from the AeroCamp that Brian Stover of Accelerate3 an I put on with the help of Jim Manton of ERO Sports and Andy Froncioni of Alpamantis. This was a first of it's kind camp and will help serve as a model for other such camps around the world using the Alphamantis system. For all of us I feel like it was really about bringing this technology and experiences to the masses. It is something that was proven to be very valuable for the age grouper and not just something that pros have access to.

First of all I want to thank the staff at the Stub Hub Velo Sports center for clearing the facility and making it possible to test most of the day on Saturday and all day on Sunday. Also a big thanks to Jim and Bryan from Ero Sports for going above and beyond the call of duty to help us pull this thing off.

The best thing I can do is to try to summarize over 140 runs by saying, you think know, but you really don't. We were constantly surprised by what worked for people. Often times what worked for one person would be much worse for others. We found a general trend in helmets and ones that tested consistently well across the board. However, the best helmet for me was not what worked best for Brian.

Some rules of thumb, position trumps all. Two of the camper lost nearly 45 and 67 watts of drag just due to position alone. Next would be helmets and then clothing. After personally seeing a nearly 18 watt drop I think that clothing is really the next frontier. Again it has to fit well, otherwise the needle moves in the opposite direction. Hydration was interesting as well. Some products work better on some frames than they do others. Big round straws are bad and a BTA bottle generally was neutral.

I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot of stuff and those that attended will be able to chime in with their own data. Personally I'm happy to share mine and I'm sure Brian will be too.

My CdA went from .2643 down to .2267

The story on the front page is here:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html

Just a note to the aero geeks, I can speak in CdA but for most people watts seem to work better. I am all for getting people to think in CdA though.

Did you or anyone reach a point where going longer was better than going lower and were there any general guidelines if/when it occurred?

Any other interesting consistencies with elbow or head positioning that allowed you to go faster?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [dkidwell] [ In reply to ]
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dkidwell wrote:
This is all very interesting. It sounds like a great experience. I would have seriously considered attending if it were within driving distance for me. Had any of the participants been to a wind tunnel before? If so, did this offer many additional gains or refinement?

Also, I think the additional attention to aerodynamic clothing for triathlon in the last few years has been really interesting. Were there any noticeable trends among clothing? I know sleeves have been getting a lot of attention recently. I'm just wondering about the differences between true TT skinsuits, aero tri suits, and standard tri suits. I'll be making a trip to the wind tunnel in the next couple months and I'm hoping to test out a few different clothing options, both for tri and TT.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds like the gains that were made were well worth it! A 40 watt improvement in power output would take a lot of training.

I don't think anyone had been to a wind tunnel before. Brian, Jim and I have spend time around the tunnel though. I will say my opinion is that this is a compliment to the tunnel and not a replacement. There are things you can do in a tunnel, yaw measurements for example, that you can't do here. Where this method excels is in real time testing. I've seen some crazy positions get setup in the tunnel only to be unrideable or nearly so on the road. It is immediately clear if that's the case on the velodrome. For example I pushed my extension 10mm forward and by the end of 3k my neck was killing me. Had it been faster, it wasn't, it wasn't sustainable.

Sleeves are good and ones that go to your elbow are better. The big thing is fit. You don't want wrinkles in the shoulder or across the front of the sleeve. Also it needs to be tight. The PI suit on Brian was slower than his 2 piece, it was neutral on Jack or slightly worse and awesome on me. Texture on the sleeves is a big thing as your biceps are basically two ugly cylinders, the texture helps trip the boundary layer.

Also I understand the drive/fly issues. Most people don't have the luxury that we do of the A2 tunnel being in NC and driving distance. I may schedule some time there just for pure validation sake. A2 is also relatively cheap at $500/hr compared to SD LSWT at +$1000/hr.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [dkidwell] [ In reply to ]
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clothing is the next big frontier imo. There are things everyone should pay attention to.

Like Wet suits it's all about the fit. The PI suit worked really, really well when it works and it kills you when it doesn't work. Poor fit = slooow and no I did not misspell it bc it was ~20w watt slower than baseline on me which was a 2 piece Desoto shorts and 2xU top.

The trends are texture especially on any cylinder shaped body parts (think arms). Sleeves can be good or they can be bad. Again we found that the trend is when it's bad it's really bad. Unfortunately a lot of people are going to be buying this stuff thinking they are buying speed when they are going to end up buying slowness.

we saw skin suits get beat by tri suits and vice versa, we saw aero tops and clothing get beat by standard kit and vice versa.

IMO the only for sure trend we saw applied to females. iirc every single one of them that sized down a size on their top ie a Medium to a Small reduced drag.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [wens] [ In reply to ]
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I tested both the Wing 57 and a Specialized Evade. The Wing 57 was fastest for me (by a slight margin) but the Evade tested very well on me. It beat the Wingspan and Selector I also tested. I couldn't cram the LG P09 on my melon since we only had a S/M but the Vortice was just behind the Wing 57 so they would probably be very close.

As for clothing, my CdA dropped in the Fusion top slightly but the fabric wasn't textured which seemed to make a big difference in some wearing the Octane suit. I unfortunately didn't test the Octane and am kicking myself for not doing so. Heath dazzled everyone with it on the last run of day 2.

This was a great camp weekend and I'm really glad I went. Jim, Bryan, Brian and Heath went above and beyond to help everyone there with position and testing ideas. I had always wondered about wind tunnel/CdA testing with the A2 tunnel within driving distance for me. I don't regret jumping on this opportunity which involved a cross country flight for me.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [gradiology] [ In reply to ]
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For me going longer was bad. I stretched out 1cm and it killed my neck and was slower. Me dropping 1cm was a big improvement. Brian was already pretty stretched out and had a super low CdA. 2nd lowest of the camp which is impressive given that he's 6'ish. A couple of the women testing were better stretched out and lower. It is really individual.

Jim says the trend is narrow, long and low. But not to much. Some people got worse when they went to low and started exposing their backs.

The thing for me is that I went to Jim for a fit and found out that I didn't need one as I done a good job on my own. I think I'd pretty much already gotten 95% way there on the fit. The only thing I changed was going 1cm lower in front. The moral is Fit first. Those that got in a good position got significantly faster in testing.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Last edited by: Ex-cyclist: Jan 23, 14 11:01
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [gradiology] [ In reply to ]
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I saw some gains by increasing my reach but I also made a few other changes that enabled me to do that. I increased my extensions up 5 degrees, anything higher was slower. I moved my extensions forward 1cm and I have no more room to move them forward. I run profile Tx's and they are the longest extensions. I'm lucky I have long arms.

The biggest thing to think about is your biceps are they are cylinders. Cylinders are typically slow. I'm pretty lucky, I have tiny biceps (actually not sure if that is lucky or not) and slightly longer than normal arms for a 6 foot person. I'm very comfy riding stretched out much more forward than your typical triathlete.

We saw tests where lower was slower, where higher was faster and slower. It's specific to the person. When I was with some athletes of mine at A2, the praying mantis position was crazy fast on one and elevating the hands higher was slower.

Just as wider arm pad width may be faster for some narrower may be faster for others.

The biggest thing the time at the tunnel and this testing taught me is that what you often think is faster is not and there where times where every single person was blown away at what was faster bc it defied all logic.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:


The biggest thing the time at the tunnel and this testing taught me is that what you often think is faster is not and there where times where every single person was blown away at what was faster bc it defied all logic.


I pulled a picture from the article on front page to illustrate this:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Lifestyle/A_California_Aero_Camp_4145.html#


The bottle sticking up looks like it would be slow. Jim walked down to the track and said, "Get that bottle off there!" It was the fastest set up. It beat a smaller bottle in the same spot and an xlab rocket bottle. Never ever would have called that one.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
The trends are texture especially on any cylinder shaped body parts (think arms). Sleeves can be good or they can be bad.

De Soto Liftfoil and hairy arms? How am I doing?

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding suit fit, beside being tight fitting is the key point that the arms/shoulders MUST be wrinkle free or are there other aspects of how the suit fits that determines if it helps or hurts?

Thanks for sharing guys, it looks like a very interesting and cool camp to be part of!


Fraser Bicycle | First Endurance

Check out my blog here | Twitter:@tmalis3
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Tom Maliszewski] [ In reply to ]
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Tom Maliszewski wrote:
Regarding suit fit, beside being tight fitting is the key point that the arms/shoulders MUST be wrinkle free or are there other aspects of how the suit fits that determines if it helps or hurts?

Thanks for sharing guys, it looks like a very interesting and cool camp to be part of!

Not completely wrinkle free as that is nearly impossible. But if the sleeves are tight on your arms and held in place down low you will have a minimum of wrinkles. The sleeves were a bit baggy on Brian and very much so on Jack. That created a lot of wrinkles all down the front of the sleeve and around the shoulder area. That pretty much killed it.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, that was my guess. First off all suits need to be tight fitting throughout so they don't flap around...then it would seem that additional or large wrinkles on the leading edge of the shoulder with "catch" the air and disrupt the air flow (kind of like an air brake).

As with all things aero, it's hard to believe how large of an impact seemingly small things are. Nice work to save all those watts; impressive gains!


Fraser Bicycle | First Endurance

Check out my blog here | Twitter:@tmalis3
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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You forgot tiny biceps!

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Just chiming in when I can between classes...

First off, I had an interesting and not too uncommon situation were my baseline changed. My "optimal position" was achieved during run #3 after rotating extensions up slightly and dropping 2cm with a CdA of .2447. I went back to this "optimal position" for run #8 and now had a CdA of .2512...uh oh. What I have done is assume that the CdA increased in a linear fashion between run #3 and run #8.

Pearl Izumi Tri Octane:

As you can see in the photo, I had a bunch of bunching and a ton of wrinkles on the shoulder and biceps. Surprisingly the suit actually tested neutral, 1.3 watt drag increase from optimal position baseline, and 1.3 watt drag decrease from "fatigue baseline". My theory behind the neutral test is that the sleeves were slow, but the fact that the rest of the suit was much tighter than my stretched out trisuit was fast. Plan: Tight fitting Kiwami coming soon.

Louis Garneau P09
The upset: The P09 topped the McClaren, although only by about 1/2 watt for myself. Another person was in the neutral to slightly worse when comparing the P09 to the McClaren.
Last edited by: JTolandTRI: Jan 23, 14 11:46
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the info - this is great!

Any feedback on the P09 with visor versus without visor? I spoke to a couple of the LG guys at the Kona booth this past October and they said their testing showed it was aero neutral.

Team Kiwami
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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How did you determine your CdA was 0.2001? That seems low for a guy your size. What was your crr?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [owtbac86] [ In reply to ]
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I asked Jim about this, and I believe he also posted it over in another thread, but he believed it was a slight penalty. I will strongly consider riding though as I hate riding with sunglasses, and I believe visor should be faster than no sunglasses. That's getting down to really small gains/loses though so I don't think it made the testing agenda of any riders.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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it was .2006. you've not seen my very, very aero biceps in person, I assure you they are underwhelming even for a kid. My wrists/forearms are undersized as well.

I know we did a roll out & weigh in. As to the math, I try hard not to do math.

I'm pretty long/extended out front and narrow. My profile pad and mounts are modified to get the pads narrower than right out of the box. I think and I'd have t measure or find my fitting sheet which is in the shed, about 20mm more narrow then stock narrowness.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Did anyone mess with shoes?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
I asked Jim about this, and I believe he also posted it over in another thread, but he believed it was a slight penalty. I will strongly consider riding though as I hate riding with sunglasses, and I believe visor should be faster than no sunglasses. That's getting down to really small gains/loses though so I don't think it made the testing agenda of any riders.

Appreciate the response; agree with you that I would rather ride with the visor than with the sunglasses. One of the things I noted at IMAZ in November was that with the visor I didn't spend any time pushing my sunglasses back up my nose during the ride.

If that happens 2x per hour, there's probably a quantifiable 10 - 20 seconds savings over the course of the ride, which would equate to 0.5 to 1W savings :)

Team Kiwami
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Tom Maliszewski wrote:
Regarding suit fit, beside being tight fitting is the key point that the arms/shoulders MUST be wrinkle free or are there other aspects of how the suit fits that determines if it helps or hurts?

Thanks for sharing guys, it looks like a very interesting and cool camp to be part of!


Not completely wrinkle free as that is nearly impossible. But if the sleeves are tight on your arms and held in place down low you will have a minimum of wrinkles. The sleeves were a bit baggy on Brian and very much so on Jack. That created a lot of wrinkles all down the front of the sleeve and around the shoulder area. That pretty much killed it.

Skin is slow, wrinkles are slower?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Did anyone mess with shoes?

One person did. They put some covers over the Specialized shoe and found them to be a bit faster. Shoe covers are weird. Sometimes they work, a lot of times they don't. That specialized tri shoe has a lot of bumps and ridges and holes.

As for testing different shoes, we all just "run what we brung".



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Did anyone test the scott split helmet?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Tom Maliszewski] [ In reply to ]
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So when I was riding this weekend on box rims, 28mm wide cheap high rolling resistance tires wearing tights, long sleeve thermal jersey, wind vest, balcava and road helmet... so you never know... maybe that was optimum for me? My speed was not impressive for the watts i was putting out.

Pretty cool data. All I get out of it is that unless you can do accurate aero testing, it's a bit of a crap shoot.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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It's a bit more than a crapshoot.

Putting a Torhans 30 on pretty much anything is fast...
Last edited by: JTolandTRI: Jan 23, 14 12:35
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Any data feedback on the Castellit top? Read lost about the PI Octane, but not the Castelli. Having seen the PI up close and in person, it just seems a heavy material that would heat up on the run in the sun.

Kiwami Tri
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
Did anyone test the scott split helmet?

No, still not available in the US yet. It has tested well for Nick Baldwin but YMMV. We just had the LG P-09 because I begged Jim to be Pierre at LG to get one to try. I'm glad I did!



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
It's a bit more than a crapshoot.

Putting a Torhans 30 on pretty much anything is fast...


Well not almost anything. It needs to fit close to the headtube. You had left already but it did not do well on my p5-3. It works VERY well on bikes with bayonet style headtubes. A Torhans 20 actually dropped one person's CdA down .01 on a Trek SC.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Last edited by: Ex-cyclist: Jan 23, 14 12:49
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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AKCrafty wrote:
Any data feedback on the Castellit top? Read lost about the PI Octane, but not the Castelli. Having seen the PI up close and in person, it just seems a heavy material that would heat up on the run in the sun.

We didn't have one to test, so no data. I didn't think the Octane material to be any thicker than what is on my Kiwami. I think they use cold black as well. At any rate I know of a several people who have raced in them without issues.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting.

Although if I was looking for front hydration with a straw, Torhans 30 would be first on my list. When it worked, it worked well.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Can you give any feedback or findings on the Fusion top? From the pics in the article, I see it was among the options tested.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
AKCrafty wrote:
Any data feedback on the Castellit top? Read lost about the PI Octane, but not the Castelli. Having seen the PI up close and in person, it just seems a heavy material that would heat up on the run in the sun.


We didn't have one to test, so no data. I didn't think the Octane material to be any thicker than what is on my Kiwami. I think they use cold black as well. At any rate I know of a several people who have raced in them without issues.

My N=1; used my Octane on the run at IMAZ in November. Worked fine, though the temperature on the run was not extreme.

Team Kiwami
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for doing this and for sharing so much valuable information. Yes ... there remain a lot of questions and a lot seems to be individual, but it's clear that it matters and some trends can be gleaned.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I noticed at least a couple plasma 3's. Wondering how the Torhans 30 tested with that frame in particular? I have that frame and was thinking about that exact hydration setup this season.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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For some people it was neutral and it worked for one person. Here is that post.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4943281#4943281


It is a really quality piece and I'm pretty sure that if you had a loose 2 piece on it would be faster. Most everyone at the camp wore tops that look like they came from baby gap. Tighter is faster. Get rid of wrinkles and flapping clothing.







Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for starting this thread

Is your cda calculation based on what your individual power meter is measuring ? I assume so.

If so, is it safe to assume that your cda and my cda cannot be compared since one of our PMs may be measuring 10w more or less ? Or is there a way to compensate for this ?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I am very excited about this. With your CdA numbers (at 0 yaw) you can use bestbikesplit to get an estimate of drag numbers at other yaw angles. Granted these are approximate based on some more generic bike setups but more detailed equipment models are in the works. On another note how can I get this camp to come to Dallas we have a velodrome (outdoors though). There would be no problem selling out multiple days.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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No problem. It was a lot of fun and A LOT of hard work before and during and ongoing. At least we are into the fun part of it all though!



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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I'll try to get on here between clients today. And I'll try to remember everything as best as I can. Someone from the camp correct me if I'm wrong.

No one had the Split, but my work with Luke McKenzie seemed to confirm it's a fast helmet. The P09 worked on a broad range of riders - more so than most helmets. I don't think it really hurt anyone. It tied or bested the McCLaren on the few riders who tested both. Back in June/July we tested a prototype and found it faster without the visor. We also only tested it with the vent plug out, and at the speeds some of the campers were riding, it would've tested better with the plug in based on our previous testing (we didn't have a plug).

Lots of wrinkles are worse than skin, but a well-fitting tri suit made of the proper materials is very fast. I've said it before and I'll say it again...clothing is the next revolution in aero. I custom fitted tri suit would be awesome! wink, wink.

Booties are a crap shoot. Some are good...most are really bad. Only one rider tested booties (Pearl Izumi) and they worked for him.

Some riders found there is such a thing as going too low. Most riders perform better with added reach. Too many triathletes riding around with their arms perpendicular to the ground. Reach out further without losing skeletal support and you'll be faster and more comfortable.

There's so much more, but not enough time.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mrcooper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mrcooper wrote:
I am very excited about this. With your CdA numbers (at 0 yaw) you can use bestbikesplit to get an estimate of drag numbers at other yaw angles. Granted these are approximate based on some more generic bike setups but more detailed equipment models are in the works. On another note how can I get this camp to come to Dallas we have a velodrome (outdoors though). There would be no problem selling out multiple days.

The technology is getting there. I think pretty soon we should be able to test outdoors. AndyF will be able to give you a better idea of how close that is. He's probably sick of me bugging him about it (I think for a year now!). haha



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, I believe that is right. (paging AndyF.) We did have a case of a malfunctioning PM. Initially my cda was .27high. I'm a low watt model and go relatively fast on low watts. The numbers we were getting weren't jiving with the known data on me. After switching wheels, things started to jive.

we also used one wheel for a lot of the tests, in that case I think we might be doing an apple to apple comparison, but AndyF can speak to all of this better than I can.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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I think I wore the fusion top the most during testing. As I said before, its tight but isn't a textured material so I think it provides limited improvement. My baseline was .242 and the Torhans 30 brought me down to .229 so that's when I put on the Fusion which brought me to .2252 so around 3w.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I constantly bother Andy too. Poor guy. It can be done with the system now, but it's not ideal.

To answer another question...yes, power meter accuracy is very important. On at least two riders the numbers didn't add up to what I was seeing, and both times there were issues. One was a pm reading to high, and another was a wheel rubbing slightly on a brake pad. We're very close to having clients only using our pm's to keep the numbers consistent across the board. It does drive home how important proper pm calibration is for everyone.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I constantly bother Andy too. Poor guy. It can be done with the system now, but it's not ideal.

To answer another question...yes, power meter accuracy is very important. On at least two riders the numbers didn't add up to what I was seeing, and both times there were issues. One was a pm reading to high, and another was a wheel rubbing slightly on a brake pad. We're very close to having clients only using our pm's to keep the numbers consistent across the board. It does drive home how important proper pm calibration is for everyone.

Remind me on our call for Monday about a potential solution/fail safe on this. I've noted it, but it seems like we are going to be covering a lot of ground.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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so it sounds like the McLaren not being available pretty much anywhere besides occasionally ebay might not be too big a deal once the p09 starts to roll out, If I am reading this correctly.

re vertical arms..........I tried a more stretched position, but drag went up. might have something to do with my completely compact position(no where for air to get in) I will check this again sometime
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
so it sounds like the McLaren not being available pretty much anywhere besides occasionally ebay might not be too big a deal once the p09 starts to roll out, If I am reading this correctly.

re vertical arms..........I tried a more stretched position, but drag went up. might have something to do with my completely compact position(no where for air to get in) I will check this again sometime

Yep that seemed to be the case. The stretched out position did not work me either. I had already dropped 10mm and going out another 10mm killed my neck. I was happy it wasn't faster.

It is really amazing what 10mm one way or the other will do.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jonfl] [ In reply to ]
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I can't remember if anyone tested that with the plasma's. I didn't.
I'll skim through the plasma data and post if someone did.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I tested faster higher but have not figured out why I never implemented that.

so my post in another thread about BP 3.0 being faster than 2.0 based on castelli's marketing hype might have some validity if they really did add texture in specific areas
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I would say so. It seems like from what has been constantly observed, texture is faster at least on the arms. That being said Jim said that the Castelli suits have always tested very well.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jonfl] [ In reply to ]
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it was tested on a Large Plasma. For that particular rider a standard BTA tested better than the torhans 30. The BTA was < 1min faster, closer to :40 really at 200w.

But unless you ride like that rider it may test out different.

The #1 thing I would caution everyone is that these results are specific to the individual that tested. You results could be worse or better. There is no real way to know unless you test. We can make some inferences but not firm conclusions from a rider that tested to you.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
On average, how did the Giro Selector fare?
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As a general take-away, if you were to do-your-own "Chung-ing", what would you look to test/iterate through? I'm also wondering how well a 2 state (high/low) multifactorial design of experiments would tease out maxima/minima given the nonlinear interactions between different setups (e.g. a helmet may do terrible with flat forearms, but then becomes the best when you mantis).

That said, the more variables I can eliminate, the smaller the test table gets. As it stands below, it'd be HUGE to test every combination. Obviously I'm $$ limited on what goodies I can test as well, albeit with a lot of tri-friends, I can probably muster a lot of equipment. :) When I find myself doing fits, I usually trend towards Andy Coggan's "caveman" fit suggestions. Looking to get smarter than that.

* Hands/elbows
1.) Higher/lower
2.) Further/nearer
3.) Flat vs uptilt forearms
4.) Narrow elbows vs wide

* Helmets
* BTA setup vs nothing vs ?
* Clothing

Am I missing any variables? Any that I can safely "assume" are linear in their interaction with the system?

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Two questions...

1) Any wheel or tire tests done?

2) When are you guys doing this again? :) I want in!
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bobby11 wrote:
On average, how did the Giro Selector fare?

Pretty darn good. It was the 1st or 2nd fastest helmet on most people. I'm including the Bell Javelin since it basically the same lid. We used the shield based on Jim's recommendation.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:
Thanks for starting this thread

Is your cda calculation based on what your individual power meter is measuring ? I assume so.

If so, is it safe to assume that your cda and my cda cannot be compared since one of our PMs may be measuring 10w more or less ? Or is there a way to compensate for this ?


We try as often as we can to use one of our powertaps. This ensures that we have a calibrated power meter that we know is properly calibrated. And that the drivetrain efficiency is no longer a factor.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Jan 23, 14 14:20
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Derf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Derf wrote:
As a general take-away, if you were to do-your-own "Chung-ing", what would you look to test/iterate through? I'm also wondering how well a 2 state (high/low) multifactorial design of experiments would tease out maxima/minima given the nonlinear interactions between different setups (e.g. a helmet may do terrible with flat forearms, but then becomes the best when you mantis).

That said, the more variables I can eliminate, the smaller the test table gets. As it stands below, it'd be HUGE to test every combination. Obviously I'm $$ limited on what goodies I can test as well, albeit with a lot of tri-friends, I can probably muster a lot of equipment. :) When I find myself doing fits, I usually trend towards Andy Coggan's "caveman" fit suggestions. Looking to get smarter than that.

* Hands/elbows
1.) Higher/lower
2.) Further/nearer
3.) Flat vs uptilt forearms
4.) Narrow elbows vs wide

* Helmets
* BTA setup vs nothing vs ?
* Clothing

Am I missing any variables? Any that I can safely "assume" are linear in their interaction with the system?

Jim can probably give you a bit better answer than me. But get the position first then find the helmet. In other words, if the Mantis is the best with the baseline helmet, test other helmets to see if it works. The mantis is one of those that doesn't work on a lot of people, but when it does, it works very very well.

Hands level or just above the elbows.

Position, helmets, clothes. At some point you just have to decide what to test. I didn't get to test everything I wanted because I ran out of time. I think a lot of us were like that. If you are field testing maybe set aside one day for each thing. Day 1 Positions, 2 Helmet, 3 clothes. That what I would do FWIW.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Awesome. Thank you.

As you said, we work in a time-limited world, so trying to catch the biggest fish is the goal.

And big thanks for all the Q&A!

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [CDriver] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Chris, hope everything is going well up in the valley of the sun.

No one tested wheels because we are testing a near zero yaw. Everything does well.

Again? Ask me Tuesday. But I think given the number of emails Heath and I have gotten there is strong demand for rolling this type of aero testing out.

You have to realize this was the first time it's ever been attempted, to do something like this on this scale and do it how we did. We all need to sit down and chat.

I know, and I am pretty sure I can speak for Heath on this, and possibly Jim. If we can figure out some things, there is no reason why we can't do this again except for maybe some national teams wanting their velodrome back.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 23, 14 14:30
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:

Putting a Torhans 30 on pretty much anything is fast...


What if there is 90-100mm from the back of the T30 to the front of your headtube? I'm on a 2011 SC 7.5 and that's as close as I can get... plus, I still have a standard Ultegra brake (haven't upgraded to TriRig yet).

Edit: did you test the T20? I know Dirk Bockel runs that and I've heard rumor its because he can't get it (the T30) flush with his headtube.
Last edited by: BrentwoodTriGuy: Jan 23, 14 14:33
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Derf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Derf wrote:
Awesome. Thank you.

As you said, we work in a time-limited world, so trying to catch the biggest fish is the goal.

And big thanks for all the Q&A!

Our pleasure. The big goal is letting people learn about the process and realize the individual nature of the testing. The other big one was showing that age groupers, not just pros, can and will benefit from this type of thing. Combine this with good training and coaching and you have a lethal combination.

I was talking with Jim on the first night I was there about why people don't do this more. His comment was that a bike fit and aero testing aren't made of carbon fiber. Haha! I might be paraphrasing a bit, but when you consider testing even at SDLSWT at $1000/hr or A2 at $500/hr is a relative bargain compared to a ZIPP Super 9 Carbon Clincher at $2500. The Zipp might save you 10 secs over a wheelbuilder cover, but the same money or much less in our case can potentially save you minutes. Knowledge isn't Gucci or Prada, but Carbon wheels are.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well there's the bling factor and the part that it just takes a lot more mental and physical energy to pin down one's position/stuff rather than swiping one's credit card. Much less using minding one's P's and Q's on using the Chung/virtual elevation method in a controlled (and worse in an uncontrolled) environment.

Me? It's not an either/or! I'm working with a wired ptap, much less tunnel time or superwonderbling. :) Virtual Elevation and a stopwatch are my only way of testing things. :)

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would also like to add that rules of thumb will get you a long way.

I've never tested anything but just went off the ramblings of the gurus here and my base run (current setup, no changes) was .225.

Once I started making changes, the lowest I saw was just under .220...like .217 or something and that was simply from going from a Med to a Small tri top. I tried all kinds of things but my massive (chick magnet) guns would just not allow me to get much lower.

I was also not willing to change my fit for the testing. I've tried going lower and it was unsustainable so knowing that fact really sped up the testing process. I would say before going testing, figure out what you are willing to change first regardless of aero or not as it will save a lot of time. I've worked on my fit for some time and know what works and what doesn't.

BUT....some huge things I learned was what hydration setups were neutral and what were not. I was able to test a ton of different setups and figure out what options I had available to me without impacting me too much. That was SUPER info to have. So it's not always about lowering your CdA a bunch but often what impact different decisions in your setup have.

I was also able to validate my current setup. Oh...and I learned my skin suit for time trialing was SLOWER than my trip top because it fit like shit. It was the smallest size I could fit into. BUT, it still wrinkled in the shoulders. So, because I have to ride in a team kit, I only have two options, tri top in a TT (which is lame) or have the suit custom tailored.


-------------------------------
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Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Derf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Derf wrote:
Me? It's not an either/or! I'm working with a wired ptap, much less tunnel time or superwonderbling. :) Virtual Elevation and a stopwatch are my only way of testing things. :)

It is funny you say that, because that exactly the way this whole project got started in the first place! VE works, it just takes time like you said.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You could always get a new team with better clothing?!?!?!

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ex-cyclist wrote:
Derf wrote:

Me? It's not an either/or! I'm working with a wired ptap, much less tunnel time or superwonderbling. :) Virtual Elevation and a stopwatch are my only way of testing things. :)


It is funny you say that, because that exactly the way this whole project got started in the first place! VE works, it just takes time like you said.

I started with a wired Power Tap so I didn't even need a stopwatch. A Power Tap is perhaps an ideal tool because you don't have to worry about drivetrain losses. But it's absolutely true that a wind tunnel or the great setup at VSC will be faster, in part because the environment is more controlled and in part because there's someone to guide you through changes -- I had to figure that stuff out on my own by trial-and-error-and-trial-and-error-and-error-and-error. And, doing this kind of thing in a "camp" setup where you can see lots of other people testing can be eye-opening. It really hammers into your head that things that work on one person don't necessarily work on someone else, and that the eyeball is a poor wind tunnel. It's humbling when you realize that everything you know is wrong.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, I meant race results by stopwatch, but that's neither here nor there. :)

I'm lucky enough to be able to borrow from your (and other early adopters) efforts and try to improve on them. We'll see how that goes. :) But it's assuredly not for everyone.

Thanks for the work thus far.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Two of the camper lost nearly 45 and 67 watts of drag just due to position alone." Holy crap!

"My CdA went from .2643 down to .2267" Congratulations, that's a big drop!

Sounds like an awesome event. Too bad it's on the West Coast, hard to justify a trip all the way across the country. Will have to stick to "Chunging" it!
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Derf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Derf wrote:
I'm lucky enough to be able to borrow from your (and other early adopters) efforts and try to improve on them. We'll see how that goes. :) But it's assuredly not for everyone.
You mean, not everyone has the patience to do this on their own? Yeah, I agree.

Quote:
Thanks for the work thus far.
Besides Heath and Brian and AndyF and Jim Manton and the folks who went to the camp and have been willing to share their findings, you should also remember to thank Tom A. and Alex Simmons and Adam Haile and a bunch of guys who showed this stuff works at an early stage when a lot of others were skeptical. I'm pretty far down the totem pole.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
if you were looking to upgrade a helmet, i understand it would be a bit of a crapshoot, but based on what you have seen, would you say the LG 09 is better than the wing 57?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't know if Heath will say it, but I'll say yea that the odds are likely in your favor.

----
@adamwfurlong
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.

[removed an embarrassing comma!]
Last edited by: cerebis: Jan 23, 14 20:29
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [afurlong] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
interesting! thanks :)
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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You control for that by hardening up and not letting your form slip. Observe - Tony Martin, and Keinle, and Rapp

cerebis wrote:
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside, they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [gradiology] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
on my test, the first thing we did was go wider on the aero/elbow pads. The made a signifigant drop in CDa. It's not clear whether or not that particular change became aero or if it became more stable and less wobbly which inturn made me faster with less drag. Move the pads out was a definite shocker to all.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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cerebis wrote:
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside, they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.

Well, first, that's something that can happen with wind tunnel measurement, too. Second, one of the virtues of field testing is that you can often tell whether your position is sustainable for the targeted length of your event; third, even if you can't hold that position for the whole time, the times when you can hold it will either be faster for the same power or require less power for the same speed, which can help your run; and fourth, sometimes you have to just HTFU.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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it did not test well on most. In fact it added drag even if it wore pretty wrinkle free and tight.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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relentless wrote:
a definite shocker to all.

I love these kinds of stories. The eye is a poor wind tunnel.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jonfl] [ In reply to ]
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it was a crap shoot. The Torhan did not test well on me with the Scott Plasma, but did test well on others. The Torpedo tested better on me than on others. With the bottle and bike frame it appears to have more to do with the body composition of the rider than the bike frame.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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each run was 12 laps or so. The first 2 laps were getting on the track, up to speed and zeroing out the PM. The next 10 laps were the test. Each lap was 250m. 4laps =1km and they were ridden sub threshold but not social ride pace. Do 8-13 runs and you're getting a decent workout. if you weren't in decent shape the testing begins to take a toll. I know on run ten I was thinking this is fun and this sucks. On my 13th run I was thinking this sucks but at least I'm learning a ton.

If it's a sub optimal position, as when reach was extended out, or stack lowered too much, just like if you dropped 20mm off your stack, you know fairly quickly if it's doable or not.

Brian Stover
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmmm, interesting. I thought the T30 would be good to go on virtually any frame as long as it was flush to the frame or at least very, very close. I didn't think about the rider at all. This thread is really beneficial, thank you to all who participated
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure if you were around when I was testing, but I also ended up faster with elbow pads out. Allowed for a much more natural and sustainable shrug as there was room for my spine/neck to relax between my shoulders.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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define starting width and ending width, i think this context is important...............

fyi i had tunnel results in the past that(even with the noise of my holding same position)consistently show narrow is much better for me. the caveat is that my narrow and a lot of triathlete's narrow are not the same definition. at 11cm c-c as base point +2cm= 12w hit , +4cm=18w hit +8cm =14w hit. so, going wider was starting to get faster, yet it was so much slower than going really narrow that it was a non-starter for me. I now have teh means to go wider yet so sometime i might try to field test that to see if anything helps. i should add that at 10 deg the +4cm was faster by 3w but given that most of teh time i will not experience that deg of yaw, it was not worth any consiration or exploration. I saw similar results for the other fellow with me. we had to tape his arms together as his pads were too wide and he was having trouble due t that in keeping arms together. narrow in this conotation is forearms pressed together, no gap
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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for 80% of the people, the P09 was the helmet. No other helmet came close to that sort of success rate.

If you are going to bet on a helmet without testing, your odds are pretty decent betting on the P09. Not 100%. It either worked or it didn't work well, but it worked for a lot of people.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
cerebis wrote:
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside, they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.


Well, first, that's something that can happen with wind tunnel measurement, too. Second, one of the virtues of field testing is that you can often tell whether your position is sustainable for the targeted length of your event; third, even if you can't hold that position for the whole time, the times when you can hold it will either be faster for the same power or require less power for the same speed, which can help your run; and fourth, sometimes you have to just HTFU.

I agree with the above. I was at this event as well and my lowest drag numbers was achieved when I shrugged. Low drag is nice but shrugging like I did is not sustainable over 56 or 112 miles. However, knowing that shrugging benefits me allows me to use it selectively. On flat and windy sections it is good to know that if I suck it up there is a good rate of return.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ In reply to ]
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I looked through the pictures and didn't see any, but did anyone have a Giro Advantage or Advantage 2? Those helmets seems to always pop up at track World Cup with teams that presumably have access to testing facilities. I tried one against a Selector and the Selector was 7-10 Watts slower through a range of yaw angles.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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AaronT wrote:
I looked through the pictures and didn't see any, but did anyone have a Giro Advantage or Advantage 2? Those helmets seems to always pop up at track World Cup with teams that presumably have access to testing facilities. I tried one against a Selector and the Selector was 7-10 Watts slower through a range of yaw angles.

Most of us tried the A2 and it tested overall well. It seems to be a nice "go to" helmet if you don't know what to use. The A2 w/o visor tied with the Javelin w/visor as the fastest helmet for me. It should be noted that the A2 was a size medium and the Javelin a large. I think a medium Javelin would have tested a little faster on me.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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After the P09, it probably tested as the most consistent fast helmet for a wide range of people. EDIT: I'd have to go through all the data to make sure of that, bet I'd bet $10 and a beer that that statement is correct.

When Heath and I were at A2 this past summer we chatted with those guys. They said the A2 was a solid choice for the majority of the people they test, almost always in the top 2-3 helmets. We also found that to be true at the velodrome. But again, many aero helmets that were really good on 2,3,5 people were really bad on 1 or 2.

I know if I run across an A2 that fits, even though it's the 2nd fastest helmet for me and I now own the fastest, I'll probably scoop it up just in case.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 23, 14 20:56
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
You control for that by hardening up and not letting your form slip. Observe - Tony Martin, and Keinle, and Rapp

cerebis wrote:
...
What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.

Yes that is ultimately good advice but Tony, for all his quadricep might, only rides for the better part of an hour. Limited duration being part of what makes ITT and TTT such a strict discipline. I am thinking of, say, AG triathletes interested in optimising their bike leg and must be a large component of the potential market. Its absolutely great that each person can obtain objective information from the camp. I was just curious if participants think about how they actual ride in races vs what they do when getting their photo taken -- so to speak. :-)

This thought was just spawned from the interest in fast helmets and how often some people I see training dip their heads.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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cerebis wrote:
jackmott wrote:
You control for that by hardening up and not letting your form slip. Observe - Tony Martin, and Keinle, and Rapp

cerebis wrote:
...
What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.


Yes that is ultimately good advice but Tony, for all his quadricep might, only rides for the better part of an hour. Limited duration being part of what makes ITT and TTT such a strict discipline. I am thinking of, say, AG triathletes interested in optimising their bike leg and must be a large component of the potential market. Its absolutely great that each person can obtain objective information from the camp. I was just curious if participants think about how they actual ride in races vs what they do when getting their photo taken -- so to speak. :-)

This thought was just spawned from the interest in fast helmets and how often some people I see training dip their heads.

I am not sure where you are trying to go with this? Naturally everyone will be fatigued after 112 miles. For the testing to be accurate we need to control as many variables as possible. I don't know how you would perform a test where each run is let's say 2 hrs. I did about 10 runs. At 2 hrs per run I need to quite my day job and setup camp at the velodrome :-). I am not sure what the alternative is.

I feel I can hold my second fastest position for the majority of a 112 mile ride. For sure I can hold it for 56. My fastest position is when I shrug and I know that is not sustainable. Even if I could not hold my second fastest position for the full length of the bike leg what we learned will still be beneficial. As long as I am holding the position that tested well I am benefiting. Lets say at some point I can't hold the position any more that does not mean that everything is lost.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry if you already answered this but was the P-09 generally faster than the Air Attack even for the head down guys?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
relentless wrote:
a definite shocker to all.


I love these kinds of stories. The eye is a poor wind tunnel.

I know that none of this information is universal, but it would be pretty cool if there was a ratio of elbow pad width to shoulder/hip width that could be collected to see if there is an optimal number.

Kiwami Tri
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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A couple of slightly off-topic takeaways...
1. It was great to put faces to Slowtwitch names - made some new friends, and had a lot of fun.
2. I honestly think that, when possible, pro triathletes should not seek helmet sponsorship, but instead figure out their best helmet and then sell the space for advertising. There's at least one big name pro doing this for 2014, and I know it's far more lucrative for her. Not my idea, but it's a good one.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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I think you hit the issue on elbow width. A number of articles discuss this. Elbows wider with bigger guys to allow air be deflected around hips and legs.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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relentless wrote:
it did not test well on most. In fact it added drag even if it wore pretty wrinkle free and tight.

I got the exact same result when I tested it at Faster wind tunnel after Ironman Arizona. I would still consider it on a cold day as it has probably less penalty compare to adding a jacket or something + you can swim with it so quicker T1 possible... but I will never wear it again on a warm day... what a mistake I made at Ironman AZ...
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jonfl] [ In reply to ]
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jonfl wrote:
Hmmmm, interesting. I thought the T30 would be good to go on virtually any frame as long as it was flush to the frame or at least very, very close. I didn't think about the rider at all. This thread is really beneficial, thank you to all who participated

There was a lot going on in his reply to you.

Bottles on the frame: results varied based on rider. For one ride a round bottle on the downtube barely moved the needle for another on the same type of frame, it was negative.

Torhans 30: This bottle did very well on bayonet style frame and not as well or worse than BTA bottles on rounder head tubes. I would say a big majority of the reason why is that we could not get the bottle close enough to the headtube.



Heath Dotson
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AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Norsedude] [ In reply to ]
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Norsedude wrote:
Sorry if you already answered this but was the P-09 generally faster than the Air Attack even for the head down guys?

The only time the Air Attack MIGHT be faster is if you are riding so head down you can't see. In other words looking at your down tube the whole time. The air attack is an aero road helmet and not an aero TT or Tri helmet. By Giro's own marketing it is 9-12 watts slower than the selector and about that much more over a very vented road helmet. That has been shown to be accurate in testing.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Pity the P09 isnt available here in aus. I sent an email to the local LG distributor and they replied:
This helmet is currently still under development. We met with Garneau at the TDU to get further updates on this helmet. There have been further improvements from the P09 helmets that were unveiled at the Hawaiian Ironman last year and as such, the helmet has not yet gone into production. We are planning on having the P09 helmet as part of the Australian collection if it meets all the passes all the Australian Certification requirements.

At this stage we do not have a confirmed delivery time for the P09, however I would not expect it to be available any earlier than November. Putting a helmet through Australian Certification can take many months before the helmets are given the green light for Australian delivery.
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Post deleted by jeffp [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: jeffp: Jan 24, 14 15:29
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [FrostyJ] [ In reply to ]
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FrostyJ wrote:
cerebis wrote:
jackmott wrote:
You control for that by hardening up and not letting your form slip. Observe - Tony Martin, and Keinle, and Rapp

cerebis wrote:
...
What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.


Yes that is ultimately good advice but Tony, for all his quadricep might, only rides for the better part of an hour. Limited duration being part of what makes ITT and TTT such a strict discipline. I am thinking of, say, AG triathletes interested in optimising their bike leg and must be a large component of the potential market. Its absolutely great that each person can obtain objective information from the camp. I was just curious if participants think about how they actual ride in races vs what they do when getting their photo taken -- so to speak. :-)

This thought was just spawned from the interest in fast helmets and how often some people I see training dip their heads.


I am not sure where you are trying to go with this? Naturally everyone will be fatigued after 112 miles. For the testing to be accurate we need to control as many variables as possible. I don't know how you would perform a test where each run is let's say 2 hrs. I did about 10 runs. At 2 hrs per run I need to quite my day job and setup camp at the velodrome :-). I am not sure what the alternative is.

I feel I can hold my second fastest position for the majority of a 112 mile ride. For sure I can hold it for 56. My fastest position is when I shrug and I know that is not sustainable. Even if I could not hold my second fastest position for the full length of the bike leg what we learned will still be beneficial. As long as I am holding the position that tested well I am benefiting. Lets say at some point I can't hold the position any more that does not mean that everything is lost.

One of the coolest parts of the new Specialized tunnel is that they CAN run for as much time as they want. So if an athlete needs to test how sustainable a position is, they can.

Tangential, but sweet nonetheless
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like the T30 would be a good route if you were able to get it flush with the head tube. That is my plan, if its flush, I'm using it, but if not, BTA it is.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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That is pretty cool. The only issue is getting in it. I guess if you are Specialized sponsored athlete it is not that tough. Most of us are going to have to use the alternatives.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Very true, not a good option for the 99%ers
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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HEy Jim and everyone else! I am curious what hydration setups you tested. Mainly in front hydration. I know that the the Torhans 30 is dependent on how close you can fit it to the headtube, but how does it compare to something like the new Xlab System.

Also, did anyone test the new castelli top?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Very interested in finding out more about the results for a round bottle on the down tube. What was the worst result observed for this scenario. I have read that a round bottle on the down tube costs something like 1 s/km and that an aero bottle in the same position cuts that in half. Obviously this number would vary based upon design of the frame (e.g., the newer Cervelo frames are designed to help shield a bottle on the down tube) as well as rider position. If the 1 s/km number is based upon testing a bike with no rider on it, then it would seem logical to expect this number to decrease with a rider due to the rider's legs shielding the bottle.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, I'm just blown away by the response this thread has gotten.

As Heath and Brian have mentioned, this was first of its kind for aero field testing. Our aim is to bring aerodynamics to the 99%. Aero testing is more accessible to the AGer now than ever before. We are seeing people improve their times significantly after just one session.

And, contrary to what a lot of people imagine, it works for fast and slow riders. It's certainly not just for pros anymore

What Heath and Brian have done is simply to have a party where everyone just gets faster. A cool idea, and one that we're very happy about.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Scott_B] [ In reply to ]
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The data we have would be specific to the bikes they were on. I doubt we had enough bikes, especially since the Scott Plasma (n=4) and Speed Concept (n=2) were just over 50% of the bikes there, to draw conclusions that a round bottle is neutral on Bike brand C or Bike brand B.

Also we saw different things happen on the smaller frames vs larger frames. It could be and I don't have enough testing time or data, but it could be that as you scale up in frame size the bottles have a different effect bc they don't fill in as much of the gap between the BB/Down tube/seat tube junction.

We crossed off a lot of questions during testing. But the testing generated as many new questions as it answered for many of us. We are now into the upper low low hanging fruit vs just picking clean the low hanging fruit.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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zachboring wrote:
HEy Jim and everyone else! I am curious what hydration setups you tested. Mainly in front hydration. I know that the the Torhans 30 is dependent on how close you can fit it to the headtube, but how does it compare to something like the new Xlab System.

Also, did anyone test the new castelli top?

Different people tested the X-lab, Speedfill A2. Torhans, Profile aerodrink and standard BTA

As with everything it varied across the board. The Xlab worked well for several people but was slower than a standard BTA for me and one other person. The Torhans worked very well as long as you could get it close enough to the headtube. The speedfill, while a cool design really has a lot of stuff sticking up off of it with the fill cap and straw. Due to that it was not horrible, but never was the fastest option.

With hydration you aren't trying to make gains you are trying not to lose them. So ideally you want whatever you put on your bike to be neutral.

No one had the Castelli speedtop. It would have been interesting to see if it lived up to the hype.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I cannot believe nobody asked this question yet. Cost?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to a few questions at once - yours first:

I know this gets old, but it's very athlete dependent. The campers can chime with their individual results, but the Torpedo works on a broad range of riders and, unless I'm mistaken, was the best overall bta setup - some found a regular bottle faster, others the whole system. Campers, am I wrong that no matter what the BTA bottle, it was an XLab mount? For hydration, it's more than just aerodynamics (gasp!), which is why I like the Torpedo even more as a system with it's adjustability and ease of use. Love the computer mount up front for both visibility and because it hides behind your hands. There was one test with a computer mounted on top of the bottle and that wasn't a good performer. Of course, that all depends on how high the bottle is sitting above the extensions, too. In other words, if you're going to have a setup like that, you should work on getting that bottle low so the computer isn't sticking up above your arms.

Surprisingly, no one brought a Castelli T-1.

Downtube bottle placement is not only dependent on the frame, but also the rider. Very difficult to predict.

Andy, it's even more true now than ever before that speed doesn't matter for anyone who wants to take advantage of aero testing - heck Desert Dude's power meter has been lying to him for who knows how long, so he's much slower than he thought! :-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
Wow, I'm just blown away by the response this thread has gotten.

As Heath and Brian have mentioned, this was first of its kind for aero field testing. Our aim is to bring aerodynamics to the 99%. Aero testing is more accessible to the AGer now than ever before. We are seeing people improve their times significantly after just one session.

And, contrary to what a lot of people imagine, it works for fast and slow riders. It's certainly not just for pros anymore

What Heath and Brian have done is simply to have a party where everyone just gets faster. A cool idea, and one that we're very happy about.

With the long hours and jet-lag my head definitely felt like we had a big party. The good part is I remember everything after this party!



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Replying to a few questions at once - yours first:

I know this gets old, but it's very athlete dependent. The campers can chime with their individual results, but the Torpedo works on a broad range of riders and, unless I'm mistaken, was the best overall bta setup - some found a regular bottle faster, others the whole system. Campers, am I wrong that no matter what the BTA bottle, it was an XLab mount? For hydration, it's more than just aerodynamics (gasp!), which is why I like the Torpedo even more as a system with it's adjustability and ease of use. Love the computer mount up front for both visibility and because it hides behind your hands. There was one test with a computer mounted on top of the bottle and that wasn't a good performer. Of course, that all depends on how high the bottle is sitting above the extensions, too. In other words, if you're going to have a setup like that, you should work on getting that bottle low so the computer isn't sticking up above your arms.

Surprisingly, no one brought a Castelli T-1.

Downtube bottle placement is not only dependent on the frame, but also the rider. Very difficult to predict.

Andy, it's even more true now than ever before that speed doesn't matter for anyone who wants to take advantage of aero testing - heck Desert Dude's power meter has been lying to him for who knows how long, so he's much slower than he thought! :-)

A lot of people used the X-lab setup. I actually had my own cage ziptied to the armrests and didn't use the X-lab. I think you can be safe and do that, unless you just really want to use the x-lab mount. I think we may have used electrical tape to attach different bottles for one person. It is kind of blurring together right now.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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If you click the link for the camp in my sig line it is all there.

We are debriefing with Andy and Jim on Monday so that it subject to change.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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No one was that narrow. It would probably be hard to hold going around the track too unless you had practiced it a lot. I was one of the more narrow people at 18cm c-c. The thing to remember here is that everyone but one person was a triathlete. Getting that narrow for a 40k TT is fine but would be tough for 90 or 180k, especially after swimming.

I'd personally like to test that narrow just to see, but again time caught up with us, and I'd only use it a few times of the year at our local TT's.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
We crossed off a lot of questions during testing. But the testing generated as many new questions as it answered for many of us.

Ain't it cool? Or, in my world, "the purpose of models is not to fit data but to sharpen questions."
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTri and relentless:

Quick elbow position follow up questions...

I seem to remember John Cobb stating that broader shouldered athletes often do better with wider elbow and hand placement. So, How would you describe your shoulders, arms and chests - skinny, broad, big, etc.? Did you keep your forearms and hands parallel (hands apart) or angled (hands together or close together)? And, how were you forearms angled - flat, upwards, etc.?

Thanks.

David K
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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my aero bars are fixed width and the aero pads can only be adjusted to one of 3 positions (vision set-up intergrated). My base test was set to the middle position. The improvement gain was made when we set the pads to the outside positon.

I think this is the benefit of non wind tunnel testing. Wind tunnel testing doesn't take into account rider stability. Going wider made me more stable and thus faster. I'm sure in a wind tunnel this would have made me slower possibly, at least that's what conventional wisdom dictates.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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It's awesome and completely sucks at the same time!

The not knowing what I don't know is killing me especially since I now know the questions I want to know answers for.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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I used the Advatage 2 for base testing. It was the 2nd fastest helmet for me. Only the Bell Javelin was slightly faster.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I dig the picture of Taylor on the track and Andy on the apron in that pic in the link to the next camp!

Sorry to go OT.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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damn that "looks" aero, but is it stable? Stability > aero out on the road IMO.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
jonfl wrote:
Hmmmm, interesting. I thought the T30 would be good to go on virtually any frame as long as it was flush to the frame or at least very, very close. I didn't think about the rider at all. This thread is really beneficial, thank you to all who participated


There was a lot going on in his reply to you.

Bottles on the frame: results varied based on rider. For one ride a round bottle on the downtube barely moved the needle for another on the same type of frame, it was negative.

Torhans 30: This bottle did very well on bayonet style frame and not as well or worse than BTA bottles on rounder head tubes. I would say a big majority of the reason why is that we could not get the bottle close enough to the headtube.

I ran with one bottle on my downtube, then swapped it out for a BTA... and my CdA increased by .0089
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [DavidK] [ In reply to ]
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JT is long and lanky. He's like 6'4"and weighs 140lbs. I'm 5'10' 167. I'm just about as skinny as its ever gonna get. I've got wide hips which are apparently in proportion to my upper body.I don't consider myself a big guy, but apparently I have broad shoulders and a broad chest. My aero bars are J- bends. From my elbows to my finger that are angled inward and not pararell.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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Rather than look for reasons not to get aeroashell, look for ways to make aeroashell work.

Usually it isn't even hard you just have to try.


relentless wrote:
damn that "looks" aero, but is it stable? Stability > aero out on the road IMO.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Cool stuff! My question is how you controlled for keeping bike position constant between runs to isolate the difference in each change you made? What I'm getting at is that to find out if a bottle or other equipment changes(and some positional changes as well) makes a difference, the bike position needs to be very stable since relatively small changes there might skew the results a fair bit. Holding a position can be hard enough in a tunnel where you're stationary, and have visual aids to help you, so I imagine it must be significantly harder on a track. Especially with most people probably not having much experience riding on a track at all before testing.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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>>for 80% of the people, the P09 was the helmet. No other helmet came close to that sort of success rate.

For what kind of head position? A triathlete's, aggressive TT or both?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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bjorn wrote:
Cool stuff! My question is how you controlled for keeping bike position constant between runs to isolate the difference in each change you made? What I'm getting at is that to find out if a bottle or other equipment changes(and some positional changes as well) makes a difference, the bike position needs to be very stable since relatively small changes there might skew the results a fair bit. Holding a position can be hard enough in a tunnel where you're stationary, and have visual aids to help you, so I imagine it must be significantly harder on a track. Especially with most people probably not having much experience riding on a track at all before testing.

We made one change at a time. So we never, for example, lowered someone AND changed their helmet. We just did it in isolation. If it didn't work we would go back and change a single variable. As far as having someone hold an exact position, that was going to be hard as you said. But no one was going full gas and from what I saw when we would re-baseline, the runs would be withing the margin of error. Towards the ends of all the runs there were definitely some throwaways as people started getting tired and drifting.

No system is perfect which is why I think this is a great compliment to wind tunnel testing. In the tunnel you can get away with some crazy positions that might test fast but be unsustainable, on the track it is pretty obvious right away if it something you can hold. The model has been validated enough by people like Robert, Tom, Alex, and Andy, that we feel pretty confident in the results we got back. Like Brian said, more work to do and more questions to be answered.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [DavidK] [ In reply to ]
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David-
As relentless already chimed in, I'm on the lanky side at 6'3" and growing while topping the scales at 148lbs.

I started at what I would consider a moderately narrow position, but still enough room for a comfortably mounted BTA and ended up about 2cm wider than that. If I had to guess at what caused my drag to go down I would link it to this: My arms are skinny enough that it really doesn't matter what they shield and when I brought elbows apart my upper back and neck naturally (w/ no effort) shrugged allowing for much lower profile. I would have liked to test a "super" narrow pad position as I have ridden comfortably like that on the road before, but did not have the ability to rearrange aerobars for that while testing. I certainly plan on field testing that in the future though. I would not contribute that drop in drag to stability because narrow is my standard riding position. Somewhat head on shot below of elbows narrow:

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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Bjorn-
Interesting question and certainly one that is on my mind. I did run across the problem that my baseline from run 3 and run 8 were significantly different. This put some limitations on the data I have, but I can still compare 2-3 runs either side of both baselines, which covers pretty much everything. I would argue that it may be smart for a triathlete with no experience on the track, etc. to do more than just a starting baseline, maybe baseline as frequently as every 2-3 runs if you are trying to isolate small changes like hydration.

Also, counter to what Heath just said, I did go for some double changes as I started to get desperate for some drop in CdA near the end. I did a test of Rudy Wingspan and P09 with elbows narrow (head more "popped" up) and then repeated the tests with Wingspan and P09 with wide elbows (head naturally dropped and turtled) and the P09 crushed the Wingspan. I didn't even make it more than 2-3 laps with the Wingspan before Bryan concluded it was not worth continuing. It seems that the Wingspan has been a generally good helmet when your head sort of sticks up, but once you can get one of the rear ported/long tail helmets sitting nicely on the back they are quick.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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very stable, I go through turn in the bars, ride them in the wind, etc. have ridden up to 80 miles this way, no need as a cyclist to ride further than that ;) I'd imagine after a swim, shrugging might not be happening so well, but there is no issue in holding that for long periods of time of at vo2+ level efforts or climbing. at least not after a small amount of adaptation. I might not want to do this if my position were extended much. one thing I have found is that is that it is much more stable with head down even when very windy out. conditions that if head were up(warm up or general riding) I end up getting blown around, but when I drop head and shrug, smooth as silk like it smooths out the flow and creates my own little cocoon which isn't disturbed by passing semis in 15-20mph winds

side benefit is that I have the entire base bar available for climbing steep hills if need be, like I might on a road bike and not relegated to aero or horns. that and basebar gets to see more clean air

drawbacks include no BTA and cpu under arms( and with age also comes lack of up close vision so...), but with narrow wrists, it can be read between them :)

I have done a couple of TTTs like this without any complaints
Last edited by: jeffp: Jan 24, 14 10:44
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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bjorn wrote:
Cool stuff! My question is how you controlled for keeping bike position constant between runs to isolate the difference in each change you made? What I'm getting at is that to find out if a bottle or other equipment changes(and some positional changes as well) makes a difference, the bike position needs to be very stable since relatively small changes there might skew the results a fair bit. Holding a position can be hard enough in a tunnel where you're stationary, and have visual aids to help you, so I imagine it must be significantly harder on a track. Especially with most people probably not having much experience riding on a track at all before testing.

I was a bit nervous about the repeatability and had the same concerns. I in a way got "lucky". It turned out that my original position was the fastest. Run #1 was my baseline run. Then as I started changing my position, lower, higher etc my drag went up fairly significantly. I was thinking there was something wrong with my baseline so I went back to the original setup and I was back to my original drag number. I think the reason I was able to repeat the run so well was because I have ridden the same position for two years so it feels very natural. I think your point is valid. If my new position would have been very different from the original I think it would have been hard for me to repeat as well as I did. Hopefully Jim or Andy will jump in and address the repeatabillity issue.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Rather than look for reasons not to get aeroashell, look for ways to make aeroashell work.

Usually it isn't even hard you just have to try.


relentless wrote:
damn that "looks" aero, but is it stable? Stability > aero out on the road IMO.

Relentless was not looking for a way not to get "aeroashell". He attended the camp to get "aeroashell". It so happened that wider tested faster for him whatever the reason might be. The stability thing is just a theory. He nor anyone else knows exactly why it tested faster for him.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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My gratitude isn't in exclusion to anyone--you just popped up here. I remember well here and on the Wattage group when this stuff was first getting vetted. Didn't have a powertap at that point to play around (nor felt comfortable with R/python)

I really appreciate the discussion and absorbing as many takeaways as I can--from all parties.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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this +. please
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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bjorn wrote:
Cool stuff! My question is how you controlled for keeping bike position constant between runs to isolate the difference in each change you made? What I'm getting at is that to find out if a bottle or other equipment changes(and some positional changes as well) makes a difference, the bike position needs to be very stable since relatively small changes there might skew the results a fair bit. Holding a position can be hard enough in a tunnel where you're stationary, and have visual aids to help you, so I imagine it must be significantly harder on a track. Especially with most people probably not having much experience riding on a track at all before testing.

Hmmm. The answers to your questions are actually kind of complex. The overall issue is related to an analysis of variance type model where you're trying to compare variance across trials to variance within a trial so you can determine whether the difference between two trials is real or not. As it turns out, the within trial variance can be quite small -- but more importantly, you can see the estimated CdA being updated every second, so you can often tell when the rider isn't holding the line on the turns. As far as variance across trials, we've detected changes such as someone opening the loading dock door, which affected either the air patterns or the air density or both. So the bottom line is that the within trial variance is small and when it's not you can usually see the cause; and when "baseline" runs look off you can also usually spot the cause. As for pegging a difference to a particular change, such as a water bottle placement, that does, of course, depend on experimental control.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
for 80% of the people, the P09 was the helmet.

maybe because it was a small??? I couldn't fit that thing on my big melon

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
this +. please


The LG P09 worked well for me (triathlete - picture below) and for another camper who is cycling only this year and was set up more for TTs. I can't link her picture, but in the article on the main page, she's on the right side, second from the top.


Last edited by: ratherbeswimmin: Jan 24, 14 11:45
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Ex-cyclist and All,

Ex-cyclist wrote: "The only time the Air Attack MIGHT be faster is if you are riding so head down you can't see."

I might be worth noting that there is a way to keep your head down and be comfortable and be able to see.

http://www.view-speed.com

Use View-Speed Cyclops glasses and see your speed increase about 1 mph.



Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Kind of both.. Helmets are weird. And it kind of depends on how the TT and Tri position is set-up. If you are restricted to UCI regs you might actually end up a little higher in the front. It depends on how much power you can create 5cm behind the BB.

My position is pretty aggressive. Based on the ReTul I'm about 18.5 cm of drop. My eyeball and tape get it at 17.5. Jon is pretty aggressive too, but he tested best with the Bell Javelin and the Advantage 2. Brian has a stretched out position that Jim called a TT position, he was faster with the Giro Selector and Advantage 2.

So again it depends. The big take away was that the Advantage 2 is still a damn good helmet and was 2nd in almost everyone's test.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Thank you for all the aero info! [ In reply to ]
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It's awesome and great to learn from the testing that you guys did on the track! I've been a pure TT cyclist for the last 4 years and been on a few different TT bikes from a P2 to a P2SL to a BMC TM02. I recently bought a small Trek Speed Concept 7.2 and running a Hed Jet 4 in front and a Hed Jet Disc out back, with a Bell Javelin, Castelli short sleeved aero jersey and an Elite Chrono aero bottle on the seat tube. Pretty fast setup for the rolling hills here in the San Francisco peninsula.

How do you think a round bottle behind the seat neatly tucked away and pointing straight back would perform? Given that most of my rides are fairly short between 20-30 miles, having one bottle is all I need. I've tried all sorts of bottle placements with round and aero bottles, but still trying to decide which has the least drag penalty while having ease of access. If the bottle behind the seat is much better than my aero bottle on the seat tube, then I'd be inclined to switch over despite it being hard to reach. I know it's very personalized on position as I've read but if you have any general insights, I'd appreciate it!
Last edited by: Outlawdon: Jan 24, 14 13:53
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44], Carl Spackler [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
maybe because it was a small???

Eric, what can you do? LG was nice enough to send us something no one commercially can get their hands on. At least they now know they'll sell at least 6 or 7 helmets.

On the flip side, it was also a big risk. Had it tested poorly or middle of the pack for the majority of people, like other helmets did, it could have hurt sales. They flipped a coin and came up winners.

Chris I'm pretty stretched out. My pre testing numbers were Hip Shoulder Elbow at 88 degrees and my elbow extension at 107 degrees. My post testing numbers are going to be even greater. My reach increased at least 4cm. There is zero room for me to move my Profile T3 aerobars further. They are as far forward as they can physically go. If you look at image 14 that's pre going out further, image 17 is final position. it's definitely not your typical triathlete elbows under the ears upper arms at close to 90.

I ride the narrow and stretched out is aero philosophy.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [FrostyJ] [ In reply to ]
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FrostyJ wrote:

I was a bit nervous about the repeatability and had the same concerns. I in a way got "lucky". It turned out that my original position was the fastest. Run #1 was my baseline run. Then as I started changing my position, lower, higher etc my drag went up fairly significantly. I was thinking there was something wrong with my baseline so I went back to the original setup and I was back to my original drag number. I think the reason I was able to repeat the run so well was because I have ridden the same position for two years so it feels very natural. I think your point is valid. If my new position would have been very different from the original I think it would have been hard for me to repeat as well as I did. Hopefully Jim or Andy will jump in and address the repeatabillity issue.


Our system has a variability of about 0.6% within a given set of laps. We call this "intra-run variability". We take, say 20 laps, remove the first 3 laps on each end, and measure the std deviation of the laps. Std Deviation/Avg Cda is about 0.6%.

Between runs, our system has 0.8% variability. We call this "inter-run variability". But this is under certain conditions: no air density transients, stable bike fit, and consistent riding. Air density transients, such as what happens if someone were to open a loading dock for prolonged periods of time, are deadly. Outdoor humid, warm air can easily change the air density by more than 2%. That's about 0.005 m^2.

A stable bike fit is one where you're not only comfortable enough not to shift around on the saddle, but that there is enough contact area on your saddle and elbow pads that you don't slip. The contact points must be positively stable -- translation: that it's impossible for you to move around. Jim's pretty good at making as sure as possible that his riders are stable on the bike. That said, occasionally we see examples of slip, shimmy and "one-cheek riding" around the turns. You have to stay vigilant as a test director. But sometimes people move around and you miss it.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Jan 24, 14 14:22
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44], Carl Spackler [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm, never thought about it from that angle. great point.

although I didn't go to camp, based on all of your reports I'm pretty happy about my equipment choices.... Pearl Izumi sleeved suit with tight arms and a small Giro Selector that I cram my head into.

desert dude wrote:
Quote:
maybe because it was a small???


Eric, what can you do? LG was nice enough to send us something no one commercially can get their hands on. At least they now know they'll sell at least 6 or 7 helmets.

On the flip side, it was also a big risk. Had it tested poorly or middle of the pack for the majority of people, like other helmets did, it could have hurt sales. They flipped a coin and came up winners.

Chris I'm pretty stretched out. My pre testing numbers were Hip Shoulder Elbow at 88 degrees and my elbow extension at 107 degrees. My post testing numbers are going to be even greater. My reach increased at least 4cm. There is zero room for me to move my Profile T3 aerobars further. They are as far forward as they can physically go. If you look at image 14 that's pre going out further, image 17 is final position. it's definitely not your typical triathlete elbows under the ears upper arms at close to 90.

I ride the narrow and stretched out is aero philosophy.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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I want to try that Sm Selector. I have Nick's M/L and it's a tad big on my head. I can't seem to find a Sm anywhere. I did pick up a Sm Bell Javelin and I might convert that to a selector.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44], Carl Spackler [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I have big-ish biceps and broad shoulders...you called me a body builder one time in a thread about IMTX a couple of years ago. What is the secret to me getting faster position wise?

You mentioned in one of your more recent posts about moving the cockpit more forward and out. Do you feel this is sustainable for an IM distance event?


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I want to try that Sm Selector. I have Nick's M/L and it's a tad big on my head. I can't seem to find a Sm anywhere. I did pick up a Sm Bell Javelin and I might convert that to a selector.

we can hook something up if you like

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
desert dude wrote:
for 80% of the people, the P09 was the helmet.

maybe because it was a small??? I couldn't fit that thing on my big melon

I haven't tried the P09, but a similar thing can be said with the Bell Javelin. The Jav is very narrow. I have a relatively narrow face and I could not wear a size medium with sunglasses.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Haha. You're so buff!

I think it's very sustainable. It's pretty comfy and easy to hold. With the bars angled up ~5 degrees it locks your elbows in.
EDIT: I could ride even more extended if I had extensions that were long enough.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 24, 14 15:34
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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:) So Brian, your greatest takeaway from the aero session was that ladies should wear much tighter tops...

Well I say we're about done on aero research... nothing more to be learned...

Thank you, fantastic research, I shall be informing all (decent looking) ladies of this vital fact.... and that logically the tighter you go the faster you go...

Cheers
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [shadwell] [ In reply to ]
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shadwell wrote:
:) So Brian, your greatest takeaway from the aero session was that ladies should wear much tighter tops...

Well I say we're about done on aero research... nothing more to be learned...

Thank you, fantastic research, I shall be informing all (decent looking) ladies of this vital fact.... and that logically the tighter you go the faster you go...

Cheers

You missed one thing. When in doubt. Ride a P09.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [FrostyJ] [ In reply to ]
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You missed one thing. When in doubt. Ride a P09.[/quote]
Reaches for texter to label something P09.......
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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I achieved a stretched out fit using the 3T Wide Aero Clamps you recommended and then putting some pad holders on there with special holes to get them as forward as possible. So, wide enough elbows (which also allows you to really shrug those shoulders in), and as Brian said tilted up pads to "lock" it in. No muscular stress holding that position.

-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
I have big-ish biceps and broad shoulders...you called me a body builder one time in a thread about IMTX a couple of years ago. What is the secret to me getting faster position wise?

You mentioned in one of your more recent posts about moving the cockpit more forward and out. Do you feel this is sustainable for an IM distance event?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have plans for building up a database of the results from all your testing? With so many athletes, positions, bikes etc. you have a potentially very powerful tool. Just like you found that the P-09 worked well for most athletes with some machine learning / data mining tools and enough data you could go into a test session knowing that athletes with a larger build on a P5 are most likely to get savings with a BTA bottle over an aero mount, but it might be the other way around on a Speed Concept.

I think that over the long term, if you collect good data, like bike, position, height, weight, race distance, etc. then you will have an amazing tool that will allow you to make more effective choices in the limited number of experiments you have but also people can make purchases that are more likely to benefit them even if they haven't been tested.

Malcolm
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [malramsay64] [ In reply to ]
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I'd second that. Not everyone lives near a wind tunnel. I'm sure there would be a market for people such as my self for advice based on specified permitters.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
Wow, I'm just blown away by the response this thread has gotten.

As Heath and Brian have mentioned, this was first of its kind for aero field testing. Our aim is to bring aerodynamics to the 99%. Aero testing is more accessible to the AGer now than ever before. We are seeing people improve their times significantly after just one session.

And, contrary to what a lot of people imagine, it works for fast and slow riders. It's certainly not just for pros anymore

What Heath and Brian have done is simply to have a party where everyone just gets faster. A cool idea, and one that we're very happy about.

Andy, Jim and Robert,

Since last year, when we worked together, have you gained insight into how water affects the drag of suits? We all noticed drag decreased the longer I rode, attributing the decrease in drag to a rider stirring the air, drafting himself/herself. We've also noted how changes to the way fabric is finished alter the drag. Sweat saturation or dousing with water might alter the drag of fabric. Any data suggesting an increase or decrease related to fabric water content?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [malramsay64] [ In reply to ]
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malramsay64 wrote:
Do you have plans for building up a database of the results from all your testing?

Hmmm. Perhaps it's because I have to worry about human subjects research but I would think there could be some potential privacy issues to resolve. You'd be on more solid ground talking about aggregate summaries and tendencies without getting into details that would identify a particular test subject (unless they're willing to out themselves).
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [DamonHenry] [ In reply to ]
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Damon: I've never looked at that variable. Hmmm.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
I have big-ish biceps and broad shoulders...you called me a body builder one time in a thread about IMTX a couple of years ago. What is the secret to me getting faster position wise?

You mentioned in one of your more recent posts about moving the cockpit more forward and out. Do you feel this is sustainable for an IM distance event?


I'm a pretty big dude and I got a pretty low CdA in a pretty traditional position. When I stretched it it hurt my neck. The big thing we learned is you just never know what works until you test it. You are probably pretty dialed in and just need a few tweaks. If I was in your place I would try to figure out a way to get by the Velodrome and schedule some time if you have any events near there.

EDIT: Not surprisingly, after looking at a couple of the side images of you, there is nothing bad sticking out. The upper arm is basically at 90 degrees so you could probably extend a bit and go a touch higher with the hands like Brian suggested. What has been found is that arms perpendicular to the ground trend towards the slow side since you are putting two cylinders directly in line with the air. Angling them a bit tends to test on average faster. Since you have some upper body mass a sleeved suit would probably work on you as well.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Last edited by: Ex-cyclist: Jan 24, 14 19:49
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
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Tony5 wrote:
I'd second that. Not everyone lives near a wind tunnel. I'm sure there would be a market for people such as my self for advice based on specified permitters.

it is not possible to make specific recommendations to people based on other peoples' data. there are trends yes, but the over arching message of any aero testing is that individuality IS the message. and fyi, the overwhelming majority of tunnel customers fly.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I want to try that Sm Selector. I have Nick's M/L and it's a tad big on my head. I can't seem to find a Sm anywhere. I did pick up a Sm Bell Javelin and I might convert that to a selector.

Can we take it for granted that the smallest helmet you can fit into will be the fastest? Any data on helmet size from Aero Camp?

I'm curious because I accidentally ended up with a M/L Selector that was mislabeled S/M. It's also a little big on my head. However, the M/L with the deep tail is the only aero helmet I've ever tried on that sits flush against my shoulders/back, filling in the usual gap there. It also covers more of my face. I'm sure you take a small hit on frontal area with the larger size, but not much if your head position is low. I'm wondering if filling in that gap and shielding more of your face and shoulders helps your Cd more than it hurts your frontal area.

Wishful thinking on my part?

CodyBeals.com | Instagram | YouTube | Facebook
Ventum | Martin's | 4iiii | Shimano | HED | Wattie Ink | ZiZU | Keystone Communications
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Cody Beals] [ In reply to ]
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Cody Beals wrote:
desert dude wrote:
I want to try that Sm Selector. I have Nick's M/L and it's a tad big on my head. I can't seem to find a Sm anywhere. I did pick up a Sm Bell Javelin and I might convert that to a selector.


Can we take it for granted that the smallest helmet you can fit into will be the fastest? Any data on helmet size from Aero Camp?

I'm curious because I accidentally ended up with a M/L Selector that was mislabeled S/M. It's also a little big on my head. However, the M/L with the deep tail is the only aero helmet I've ever tried on that sits flush against my shoulders/back, filling in the usual gap there. It also covers more of my face. I'm sure you take a small hit on frontal area with the larger size, but not much if your head position is low. I'm wondering if filling in that gap and shielding more of your face and shoulders helps your Cd more than it hurts your frontal area.

Wishful thinking on my part?

We didn't test different helmet size specifically. We did speculate a bit that might have have been why the P-09 tested well on me. The only one we had was a S-M 52-56 I normal wear a M-L. We have no real way of knowing without going back and testing both to make sure. A smaller helmet will have a lower frontal area which MAY test better.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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How does the Selector compare to the WingSpan? I currently have the wingspan but like the color/style of one selector model. Would it be an upgrade?

Also from your testing, could you say position 1st, Clothing and helmet 2/3rd? Or is it more Position 1st, clothing then wheel & helmet would be a wash with the hydration/bento box/etc. ? Which means they play those small role overall.

Thank you for your feedback.
Last edited by: flyrunride: Jan 25, 14 5:50
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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flyrunride wrote:
How does the Selector compare to the WingSpan? I currently have the wingspan but like the color/style of one selector model. Would it be an upgrade?

Also from your testing, could you say position 1st, wheel 2nd and helmet 3rd? Or is it more Position 1st, wheel & helmet would be a wash with the hydration/bento box/etc. ? Which means they play those small role overall.

Thank you for your feedback.

Really, as we've said multiple times, it depends. In GENERAL the selector performed better than the wingspan. This may or may not be the case for you. It would probably not be a horrible bet though. Plus if you like the looks, then that a bonus.

We didn't test wheels, but an optimized helmet can likely save you the same as a good aero front wheel. Helmets and clothing play a huge roll, but for both fit is the key.

So Position is the HUGE number 1, I'd put wheels as number 2 since that is not really rider dependant, Helmet and Clothing is close to being tied for 3.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Much appreciated, I guess time to get the selector and possibly sell the WingSpan (unless I'd need it for hot races).
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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The trend was the that Rudy helmets for the most part were solid mid pack performers, again YMMV.

After seeing the trends, when I see people racing with a Rudy aero helmet, my thought now is that for 80% of the people it's not the fastest helmet. But is the person I'm racing against in the 20% or the 80%?

Now the flip side of that is that the Selector wasn't always the fastest helmet either. You could wonder the same thing about the people you are racing who are wearing the Selector.

It's been said multiple times on here but is worth repeating. Unless you are going to do field testing or aero testing when you put on your aero helmet, you don't know if it's helping you a little or it's helping you a lot. Unfortunately my custom painted Rudy Wingspan is an aero brick on me. On you it could be The helmet or it could not.

The wingspan was talked about a bit more earlier in this thread iirc.

I think if you are planning on testing it's Position 1st, helmet 2nd then clothing or storage and then switch them. You need to carry fluid and food. Personally I' waiting on buying any aero clothes for LC racing until later this year. I strongly suspect there is a lot in development right now and waiting a few months may be the smarter option.

On the velodrome, since it's close to zero yaw, all wheels are going to do well. IMO there is enough data out there on wheels, that testing a wheel is a wasted run. I'd personally use that run to answer other questions.

EDIT: I see Heath was typing at the same time I was. Now you've got 2 different opinions on what to test. Not trying to confuse the issue, each person has different testing needs & priorities.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 25, 14 6:09
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've used the Selector for 3 seasons now and I've never had a race where I thought it was too hot. Is it hotter than a road helmet or the Specialized TT2? Yes, but I've never felt like it was a hinderance. YMMV



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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Id keep it and just wait for the P09 to be available to the masses
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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Not trying to pull traffic away from this thread, but for those that are interested, here is a link to a post with my personal data, thoughts, and trends. It's a bit too long to just copy and paste. Of course as said over and over again, it's all individual, but you can learn a lot and make some educated guess by seeing the results of others. A lot of the info in there I or other have discussed in this thread already but there is also some other fun info.

Aero Camp: The Data
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Can you tell us what you do to verify proper power meter operation? It's clearly very critical for the test.

Jim@EROsports wrote:


Andy, it's even more true now than ever before that speed doesn't matter for anyone who wants to take advantage of aero testing - heck Desert Dude's power meter has been lying to him for who knows how long, so he's much slower than he thought! :-)
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44], Carl Spackler [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>>I ride the narrow and stretched out is aero philosophy

Narrow is aero, IMO. Thanks for the info. When is your next camp?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:


Between runs, our system has 0.8% variability. We call this "inter-run variability". But this is under certain conditions: no air density transients, stable bike fit, and consistent riding. Air density transients, such as what happens if someone were to open a loading dock for prolonged periods of time, are deadly. Outdoor humid, warm air can easily change the air density by more than 2%. That's about 0.005 m^2.


Congrats on the business venture.

Volleyball games played on the infield are problematic when trying to achieve a 0.8% inter-run variability, then? How does ~3% uncertainty effect results interpretation?

Here's some ambient condition data from the venue where you tested on a day where no volleyball games were being played and there were three people in the facility:

http://biketechreview.com/images/ambient_conditions_ADT_070208.png



best of luck going forward.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [corneliused] [ In reply to ]
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Great question. Rich Sawiris at Wheelbuilder.com insures our Powertaps are calibrated properly; not sure there's anyone in the business who understands them better. We like using PT's for a few reasons, one of them being they don't drift. We've seen many a pm come through testing that we're clearly not calibrated properly, and it does have obvious effects. We had it happen at this camp, in fact. I absolutely agree with DCRainmaker's assertion that a majority of athletes are riding around with improperly calibrated pm's.

This has been enough of an issue that we're ready to insist everyone use only our Powertaps to insure consistent results. We've also considered offering a calibration service, but time is an issue for us.

Beyond that, the pm being used is zero'd before every run. We definitely can see when a pm drifts and, trust me, some very obviously drift during a test.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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We check in real-time at all times, and adjust before every run if necessary. The only time we see those changes is when doors are left open. We've done thousands of laps over hundreds of hours and never see changes that dramatic unless a door is left open, and it's pretty obvious when it happens.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:

Here's some ambient condition data from the venue where you tested on a day where no volleyball games were being played and there were three people in the facility:

http://biketechreview.com/images/ambient_conditions_ADT_070208.png



best of luck going forward.

Excellent plot and it nicely illustrates the issue! The plot shows a couple of things: first, that as long as you record the data you can adjust for air density. Second, that although there are often changes in air density over the course of testing, there's usually a secular trend which makes accounting for it easier. Third, you can see transient spikes (like, at ~12:40pm, ~1:05pm, and a smaller spike at ~1:35pm). The good things are that the spikes are transient and obvious. Bottom line, it's not like air density varies randomly -- air density appears to vary in predictable ways and when it doesn't (like, the spikes) you can spot it and either correct for it or handle it in another way. This is a great graph.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you!

You raise a good point that measuring air density plays an important role in making sure the CdA measurements are solid.

We do measure it continuously, and incorporate it into the calculation. But what we don't like is when storm fronts come in in the middle of a run. It's the quick transients that hurt. We've also tested *a lot* at the VELO Sports Center. Maybe 20,000 laps. And we see our Stig runs, that keep coming in at the same CdA +/- 0.8% when we're careful.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Jan 25, 14 8:19
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I seem to recall dcrainmaker took a pretty big hit with a bta bottle in testing the profile mount(though it seemed like it also could have just been the profile mount). I wish there was some way of knowing whether or not a bta is a good call. The 5 watt hit you saw is higher than just a regular fram bottle, is it not? There has also been speculation that a bta is better at yaw, so doesn't this demonstrate partially a shortcoming of the testing?

Was there any talk of trying to create a system that created a way to test higher yaw on the velodrome?
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
Thank you!

You raise a good point that measuring air density plays an important role in making sure the CdA measurements are solid.

We do measure it continuously, and incorporate it into the calculation. But what we don't like is when storm fronts come in in the middle of a run. It's the quick transients that hurt. We've also tested *a lot* at the VELO Sports Center. Maybe 20,000 laps. And we see our Stig runs, that keep coming in at the same CdA +/- 0.8% when we're careful.

I'm sorry, sir. What is this "storm front" thing you speak of? When I purchased my SoCal home I was assured by the realtor that we don't experience such phenomena here. :-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Runless] [ In reply to ]
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In the A2 testing we went to this summer, a round bottle on the seat tube was a 9w hit. I know others where the BTA was a watt saver. Again, it varies. If you look at pic 4, every single person said no way is that going to test fast (BTA sticking up in the wind). Yet it tested fast and faster than the Xlab torpedo that tucked so you could hardly see it.

As the yaw goes out you normally see a reduction., we saw that quite often at A2. If it was better at baseline 19/20 runs it was better at yaw. The velodrome isn't 0 yaw. Jim and Andy can better tell you what yaw it averages out to be, maybe 2-3 is my guess.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 25, 14 9:30
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Excellent plot and it nicely illustrates the issue! The plot shows a couple of things: first, that as long as you record the data you can adjust for air density. Second, that although there are often changes in air density over the course of testing, there's usually a secular trend which makes accounting for it easier. Third, you can see transient spikes (like, at ~12:40pm, ~1:05pm, and a smaller spike at ~1:35pm). The good things are that the spikes are transient and obvious. Bottom line, it's not like air density varies randomly -- air density appears to vary in predictable ways and when it doesn't (like, the spikes) you can spot it and either correct for it or handle it in another way. This is a great graph.

DA is light green in the second panel of the plot and the variation doesn't look to be monotonic. Measuring DA is nice, but measuring q is probably better?

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
And we see our Stig runs, that keep coming in at the same CdA +/- 0.8% when we're careful.

I agree that field testing can be done well.

I guess I look at it from more of a customer perspective. During this test, one individual did a repeat run that was approximately a 2-3% delta. How does that effect interpretation of their results?

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
DA is light green in the second panel of the plot and the variation doesn't look to be monotonic. Measuring DA is nice, but measuring q is probably better?
Yeah, monotonicity would be nice but what's more important is that the time scale of the change is slow enough that you can pick out a secular trend (and then adjust for it). I think what's being continuously monitored is temp, pressure, and humidity so rho is calculated.

BikeTechReview wrote:
I agree that field testing can be done well.

I guess I look at it from more of a customer perspective. During this test, one individual did a repeat run that was approximately a 2-3% delta. How does that effect interpretation of their results?
Well, I'm not Andy or Jim or Brian or Heath but when I see large and unexpected deltas in any of the work I do (and, of course, most of my work doesn't have anything to do with aero measurement) I have to look around to see if it can be explained. That's just good analytical practice.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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2-3% is a significant change, for sure.

Your point is well taken -- it would be hard to find any subtle deltas in that kind of noise. We are still sifting through the detailed ANT+ log files to find evidence of a power meter that wasn't properly zeroed. We can backtrack and redo the calcs, if that's the case.

I promise to share the findings.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I went back and looked at the run list and based on the notes we have it wasn't a true back to baseline as there was a different helmet involved that what the baseline was. Unless the notes are wrong, I don't think there was really much going on there that would have raised any eyebrows.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Heath-
If you are referring to my two differing baselines, they were done with same position (extensions up, dropped 2cm) and same helmet (Rudy Wingspan).

If not, disregard the above.

ETA: Just went back and checked the testing report, "Setup #7" is incorrectly labelled as testing #2 + Wing57, it actually was a complete return to #2. Would have liked to test the Wing57, but it was not down at the track yet. Notes were likely taken with Rudy, Wing, or poor hand writing. Shot Brian an email asking to have that corrected for the sake of other people looking at the data a couple days back..
Last edited by: JTolandTRI: Jan 25, 14 13:15
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
My CdA went from .2643 down to .2267

A CxA reduction of ~14% is extraordinary. Here are two pics that reduced CxA by roughly half the magnitude you are reporting:



http://www.biketechreview.com/...riding_arms_back.png

Do you have images that compare the CxA=0.264 and the CxA= 0.227 runs?

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Heath is pictured in 16 and 20 and the captions talk about some of his changes. Sounds like clothes and helmet were a big part of things http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim@EROsports wrote:
We check in real-time at all times, and adjust before every run if necessary.

Before reading further - please keep in mind that I'm really not trying to be a pain in the ass here; but rather, I'm trying to help folks put these results that have been posted into some sort of context.

If it's not too much bother, please talk more about what you actually check in real time _prior_ to a run, and what are the criteria/thresholds that are used to determine if an adjustment is necessary.

How does the facility exit egress/ingress rate during a volleyball match (images show a volleyball tournament occuring during testing) affect transient wind patterns?

Of the folks that tested, how many did repeat runs of the same configuration? We've seen one individual do a repeat with a reported (as of 1/25/14) 2-3% change in CxA. I'd be curious to hear more about the practical/typical/average-non-stig-person repeatability of the methodology implemented at this venue.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Runless] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Runless wrote:
Heath is pictured in 16 and 20 and the captions talk about some of his changes. Sounds like clothes and helmet were a big part of things http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html

thanks for the heads up on the images. his position and equipment in 16 suggests to me that a 14% improvement is indeed extraordinary.

fwiw, a std road helmet to a full-on aero helmet is about a 3% delta at beta=0.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Great question. Rich Sawiris at Wheelbuilder.com insures our Powertaps are calibrated properly; not sure there's anyone in the business who understands them better. We like using PT's for a few reasons, one of them being they don't drift. We've seen many a pm come through testing that we're clearly not calibrated properly, and it does have obvious effects. We had it happen at this camp, in fact. I absolutely agree with DCRainmaker's assertion that a majority of athletes are riding around with improperly calibrated pm's.

This has been enough of an issue that we're ready to insist everyone use only our Powertaps to insure consistent results. We've also considered offering a calibration service, but time is an issue for us.

Beyond that, the pm being used is zero'd before every run. We definitely can see when a pm drifts and, trust me, some very obviously drift during a test.

Do you have 650c wheels with powertaps?
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Duckie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Duckie wrote:
I am guessing that since I am a straight cyclist testing a TT position, some things may test differently for me than for others so keep that in mind.

Can you expand upon this educated guess please? Does it refer only to how the Aeon tested, or more about position et al?

_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BikeTechReview wrote:
Runless wrote:
Heath is pictured in 16 and 20 and the captions talk about some of his changes. Sounds like clothes and helmet were a big part of things
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html


thanks for the heads up on the images. his position and equipment in 16 suggests to me that a 14% improvement is indeed extraordinary.

fwiw, a std road helmet to a full-on aero helmet is about a 3% delta at beta=0.


You of all people should know better than to trust the "eye-ball" wind tunnel. And I'm sure you're not suggesting that your eye is better than what they are doing up the road from you at the Velosports Center.

At any rate, my baseline run was .2643. That is what is pictured in number 16. My next change was dropping the armrests down 1cm. that got me to .2507. I then took off the rear bottle which barely moved the needle but did slightly down to .2494. The helmet, as your extensive experience showed you was not a huge CdA dropper, but it did drop it to .2447. The last change was to test in the PI skin suit, that dropped me down to .2267

This seems to jive pretty well with what others have found:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4165683#4165683


And based on manufacturers claims from companies like Castelli and Pearl, while eye opening, the savings from the suit doesn't seem too far out of line. FWIW, the Kiwami suit is a probably not as tight as it should be (I ordered up a size due to body length which was a mistake) and it exposes a lot more skin than a normal top.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ex-cyclist wrote:
You of all people should know better than to trust the "eye-ball" wind tunnel. And I'm sure you're not suggesting that your eye is better than what they are doing up the road from you at the Velosports Center.


I don't have a dog in this fight...I rarely do wind tunnel work with athletes these days. Field testing can be done well, but it is tricky. And, yeah, my eyeball is a good independent line of inquiry, and when things don't jive with it, it piques my curiosity...and then I test again, and again, and again, and...y'know, to make sure what I'm measuring is indeed there and not just noise.

Quote:
At any rate, my baseline run was .2643. That is what is pictured in number 16.

how many repeats of this configuration did you do?

Quote:
My next change was dropping the armrests down 1cm. that got me to .2507.

that is an extraordinary improvement for a 1cm change in drop. Are there any other things that might explain this large delta?

Quote:
I then took off the rear bottle which barely moved the needle but did slightly down to .2494. The helmet, as your extensive experience showed you was not a huge CdA dropper, but it did drop it to .2447.

a good head position is pretty robust to aero helmet choice. a 2% delta seems high for an aero helmet to aero helmet swap even with a non optimal head position.

Quote:
The last change was to test in the PI skin suit, that dropped me down to .2267

that is an extraordinary difference. A CxA reduction of ~0.02 is roughly equivalent to going from a road jersey that is a couple sizes too big to a skin-tight one in my experience.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight, but this thread reminds me of the quote: "No one believes the results of a theoretical analysis except the analyst. Everyone believes the result of an experiment except the experimentalist."

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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I think a drop of more than 10% is possible, especially with amateur triathletes that did not have much prior testing done and you optimize both position and equipment.
I liked the graph you posted, but as long as air density is accounted for in the calculation I do not see a problem. Also I have seen spikes in temperature and increased humidity like that when somebody picks up the device to take a reading. That would be aVERY lokalized effect and would not effect the measurement.
I think I send you tunnel data before trying to attach a probe to a bike to measure dynamic pressure and found way to much rider interaction in every acceptable position. so I disagree that measuring q would be the better idea. I think field testing works and has been showen to give usable results. The biggest source of error is the rider.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ In reply to ]
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I asked about this but wasn't responded to...

How does an aero bottle on the down or seat tube perform on a Speed Concept in general? How about just having a single behind-the-saddle bottle setup vs a frame-mounted bottle?

Any generalized insights?

Thanks.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Outlawdon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I alluded to this earlier. It depends upon the size of the frame. What size frame do you have?

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [IJ] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IJ wrote:
I think a drop of more than 10% is possible, especially with amateur triathletes that did not have much prior testing done and you optimize both position and equipment.

I agree. Are you suggesting Heath is an amateur triathlete that hasn't done his homework? To me, his position/equipment during his first run looks pretty good - certainly not like the folks I've seen get 10%+ improvements in CxA.

Quote:
I liked the graph you posted, but as long as air density is accounted for in the calculation I do not see a problem. Also I have seen spikes in temperature and increased humidity like that when somebody picks up the device to take a reading. That would be aVERY lokalized effect and would not effect the measurement.

I think the real reason I posted the graph I did (data taken during an ADT test session quite some time ago when no volleyball games were being played) was primarily to illustrate non-monotonicity of DA. One of the individuals who tested on the day(s) of the aero camp that is the subject of this thread mentioned that they thought there was a linear drift between runs...maybe there was, and maybe there wasn't - without measurement of the things that matter, it's difficult to say. The test director on the day is the guy who will be able to shed some light on how these things are measured and dealt with systematically/automatically.

Quote:
I think I send you tunnel data before trying to attach a probe to a bike to measure dynamic pressure and found way to much rider interaction in every acceptable position. so I disagree that measuring q would be the better idea. I think field testing works and has been showen to give usable results.

I haven't seen your data. Please share it in this thread. I'm sure there are folks smarter than I reading who might be able to provide some insight. If you are basing your perspective on data acquired in a wind tunnel where blockage might be a factor, that is something to consider. I agree that field testing can work, as long as one understands the limitations of their tool/methodology. That could be a serious piece of work to undertake for a given individual who shows up on field-test day.

Quote:
The biggest source of error is the rider.

I'd agree as long as everything else that matters is measured and accounted for. In a wind tunnel, where the force and q measurements are calibrated and known day to day or rider to rider, yeah, for sure, the rider and the clothing they choose to wear on the day are a big source of error. In a venue where the force (i.e, power meter of unknown calibration and ability to deal with reverse torque) and ambient conditions (e.g. air density, wind pattern changes due to associated behaviors during volleyball games in the infield etc...) are not known, well, then, maybe I'm not as sure as you seem to be....and as Bjorn alluded to earlier, without the means to verify or record how rider's behave _during_ a run, well, things could very well be a bit of a dog's breakfast.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I alluded to this earlier. It depends upon the size of the frame. What size frame do you have?

It's a small frame with Hed Jet 4 in front and Hed Jet disc in the rear.
In Reply To:
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Outlawdon] [ In reply to ]
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iirc and I think I do, the Bontrager bottle on the small frame actually worked better than no bottle or a round bottle.

I suspect bc it fills in the junction between the seat/down tube and BB a good deal.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 26, 14 16:52
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Bontrager Speed Bottle reportedly tested nicely on Small/Extra Small Gen. 1 SC. I didn't see the test, but got that from the rider afterwards.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the feedback and info on the aero bottle guys! I appreciate it and will continue to use an aero bottle on the frame then.

I have a random hypothetical and experimental question...how would the drag look if someone completely taped up the inner triangle of a TT frame from the down tube to the seat tube. Obviously not UCI legal, but would it be safe and also fast?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting the blog link. It was interesting to me because I'm also a long-legged 6'3" and have always suspected that I'm not terribly aero despite making most of the Slowtwitch-accepted position/equipment choices. Suspected because my power output to speed ratio isn't great compared to what some here post. Was the long-leg thing something they told you there, or is it somehow common knowledge?

In any case it's enough to make me decide to reserve some track time since it's only a couple of hours drive for me anyway.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Little bit of both. Common sense in general, but then people will also just state it as an observation. The fact that raising your seat 1cm can make a big impact sort of leads to the conclusion that raising it 10cm would make a giant impact. Body proportions are also likely a big part. I'm 6'3" with a 37" inseam and +3 ape index, which sort of means I have lots of long round "cylinders" all over the place. In contrast, someone with a super long torso who can get horizontal the ground and have minimal limbs all over the place will likely be more aero.

No expert confirmation on that, just common sense.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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>No expert confirmation on that, just common sense.

Sure, makes sense in the eyeball wind tunnel. I guess we'll just take solace in the fact that some of the best TTers or triathlon uberbikers (Wiggins/Rapp) are also cylinder-all-over-the-place types. Though I'd be curious to know if that's because the body type can have natural advantages in aerobic capacity or pedaling leverage that outweighs the aero cost, or some other reason....
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Outlawdon] [ In reply to ]
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It's been done, Trimble made a bike like that. Carbon fiber main triangle. I suspect fast at 0 yaw. not sure what would happen at higher yaw angles.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
Runless wrote:
Heath is pictured in 16 and 20 and the captions talk about some of his changes. Sounds like clothes and helmet were a big part of things http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html


thanks for the heads up on the images. his position and equipment in 16 suggests to me that a 14% improvement is indeed extraordinary.

fwiw, a std road helmet to a full-on aero helmet is about a 3% delta at beta=0.

14% is a lot, but it can and does happen, although it's usually not solely through positional change alone (although I have seen some awful starting positions and crappy clothing), e.g. we might see double digits if we also consider impact of wheels etc (you might be surprised at what people think is aero, or that wheels don't matter - seriously!). And the unecessary paraphernalia they have on their bike!

For those whom have managed to self set up a reasonably decent TT position I'm working pretty hard to find a 5% CdA improvement through positional changes in one 2 hour testing session, but it can be found and that's not an uncommon outcome, obviously it's an individual thing.

Did that recently with a recent world elite track champion and another former pro turned masters racer (just loves his racing) and managed a CdA reduction due to position adjustment of ~4%. Obviously we also look for other improvements, with helmets being the obvious one.

I've seen examples where lowering the rider's front end down from a similar position to your posted photo has made their CdA higher, I've seen it result in very little change, and I have also seen it result in substantial improvements. What you notice happen for one individual just does not universally translate. Indeed we found this testing the elite world champion rider the other week - we had to bring his front end up in order to lower his CdA. It seemed counterintuitive, but we had 4 hours of solo test time to re-run multiple times and be absolutely sure.

Some people are just aerodynamically gifted and some respond (in a CdA sense) to positional changes far more than others. Aero is weird like that.

And the best helmet choice for that same WC rider was one of the most unusual as well. I almost said to not bother with that helmet as it never wins when performing aero helmet comparison testings. Well it did for this guy. Aero is weird like that.

On some people I have tested road to aero-helmet difference that is negligible (including myself), and yet I've seen substantial differences with same helmets on others. It is so individual. Aero is weird like that.

As for controlling for conditions, yeah definitely something to stay on top of and venues need good inspection and repeated use to gain insight into what can/does happen (but a new tunnel presumably has same issues). Which is why it's great to see professionals like these guys working hard to nail such things. Personally I monitor and adjust for air density changes continually (every run is checked before/after), and venues I use don't have other stuff like volleyball going on as I book the venue for exclusive use, so things like loading dock doors are a non-event or readily spotted. Also I try to have baseline runs repeated during and at the end of a session to see how consistent they are.

Heck, on the right days I've got some pretty good testing data at outdoor tracks. Precision suffers a little, so it then becomes a matter of working out what level of change can be reliably detected. My team mate runs our local LS wind tunnel, just a shame it doesn't (yet) have a bike testing rig as we could on the same day compare results.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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37" inseam for 6'3" is just fractionally over average for the height. It is a higher ratio than the population average but most people don't realise that inseam ratio scales with height. So your 48.x% is higher than male average 47.7% but not unexpected. As it happens you have the same dimensions as me, but over 20kg lighter. Luckily I have a lot more power to make up for the CdA hit (my best is ~0.26, with 0.245 in power sacrificing positions).

Speedtheory | ST Interview
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. I've always assumed 37" inseam for 6'3" was pretty big given peoples response, including many people in the height range. I would be surprised if that was close to national average. I wonder if as you start to reach towards the extremes the ratio's get thrown off possibly? No background knowledge just thinking out loud.

I definitely count on watts/kg when racing, because my watts/CdA certainly isn't cutting it right now.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
cerebis wrote:
I think this is a great idea and something I would considering doing for sure but I have a question about experimental methodology.

The environment being used is highly controlled (I appreciate why) and -- I'm assuming -- the athletic efforts during measurement are short and free of many real-world factors. Riders will be highly conscious of being the subject of study and therefore will more than likely be on their best behaviour. How do you control for that difference so that when these equipment and position choices are taken outside, they're still optimal?

What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.


Well, first, that's something that can happen with wind tunnel measurement, too. Second, one of the virtues of field testing is that you can often tell whether your position is sustainable for the targeted length of your event; third, even if you can't hold that position for the whole time, the times when you can hold it will either be faster for the same power or require less power for the same speed, which can help your run; and fourth, sometimes you have to just HTFU.

When I do testing, I get to see after 2 hours of runs how the athlete deals with that level of fatigue. It's a factor and is something you can only really see by watching a rider.

If a rider happens to race at a suitable venue and under consistent conditions, it is also possible to see fatigue induced increase in CdA through post-hoc data analysis. I've done that a few times, which resulted in adjustments to both set up and mental approach (awareness of the issue helps them to pay attention to their position on the bike as they fatigue). It also works when analysing something as short as kilo track TTs, track pursuits as well as longer road TTs.

That's the nice thing when you see a rider actually riding, with the bike moving freely underneath them, such things if they occur become apparent and so appropriate action can be taken.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I constantly bother Andy too. Poor guy. It can be done with the system now, but it's not ideal.

To answer another question...yes, power meter accuracy is very important. On at least two riders the numbers didn't add up to what I was seeing, and both times there were issues. One was a pm reading to high, and another was a wheel rubbing slightly on a brake pad. We're very close to having clients only using our pm's to keep the numbers consistent across the board. It does drive home how important proper pm calibration is for everyone.

Anomalous mechanical drag aside, a stable torque zero I find is a good sign and gives confidence, at least such that you can determine the CdA deltas with good precision.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
It really hammers into your head that things that work on one person don't necessarily work on someone else, and that the eyeball is a poor wind tunnel. It's humbling when you realize that everything you know is wrong.

Aero is weird like that.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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From USA Miltary data for 4000 individuals

Data is getting patchier at our height but the trend is very clear. People are just amazed by 37" inseam as they don't have context on what normal is for tall people

Speedtheory | ST Interview
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
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Watt Matters wrote:
<snip>

Best of luck in your business ventures.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I think height is only a real setback if it's matched with weight, which you don't seem to have in excess. I'm a very "cylindery" person myself, at 6'2" and 140lbs - I'm guessing similar build but slightly downscaled. I'm not the fastest, which is why I try to be efficient. From comparing other top age-groupers' power data, that didn't stop me from clocking one of the best watts-per-speed ratios at the half-distance at the Israman. I clocked 3:04 over 90km and 1950m of elevation, averaging 206AVG, 212NP - quite a few behind me clocked in slower times with more watts, and one guy who pulled off a 2:58 did that averaging 245W and god knows how high is NP was - and he's 30cm shorter than I am, with a proper (Lightweight!) disc wheel.

Haven't done field-testing - though I'm itching to - but I'm quite confident the following setup will test very fast:



ZONE3 - We Last Longer
Last edited by: tessartype: Jan 27, 14 1:02
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
Watt Matters wrote:
<snip>


Best of luck in your business ventures.

Thanks, but in reality it's just fun to make people faster and perform better, as well as interact with some very smart people, and quality athletes - the motivation for this stuff is way beyond just "a business venture". Already have several world and national records helped achieved, qualification for national squads / worlds selection, as well as many many riders attaining PBs after years of performance stagnation. And they all find it quite motivating and fun to do such testing, which is a big factor in this sport.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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Damn.....6'2'' and 140lb. I thought I was skinny at 6'2'' and 165lb. :D

It is tough to get aero AND MAKE POWER at our height. My output on the tt bike suffers as I get lower even with 5mm shorter cranks. I would love to work with an aero geek around here (Philly) to get me into a good position. I'm taking some advice from this thread and going longer to get my upper arms on more of an angle rather than perpendicular to the ground. Now if it would only get above 20 and stop snowing around here so I can get out and test the position :(
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
IJ wrote:
I think I send you tunnel data before trying to attach a probe to a bike to measure dynamic pressure and found way to much rider interaction in every acceptable position. so I disagree that measuring q would be the better idea. I think field testing works and has been showen to give usable results.


I haven't seen your data. Please share it in this thread. I'm sure there are folks smarter than I reading who might be able to provide some insight. If you are basing your perspective on data acquired in a wind tunnel where blockage might be a factor, that is something to consider. I agree that field testing can work, as long as one understands the limitations of their tool/methodology. That could be a serious piece of work to undertake for a given individual who shows up on field-test day.

Hi Kraig,

I think that IJ is talking about the upstream effect that has the rider on the distribution of speed and, consequently, bike-air relative speed and yaw. In field testing yaw is affected to some extent by the rider, something that doesn't happen in WT tunnels. This extract is taken from the latest SC white paper:

"This specific sensor was built to custom Trek specifications and remains the most advanced yaw sensor in the world. In addition, we used our wind tunnel mannequin to create a proprietary set of calibration functions which accounts for the influence of bike + rider on the airflow. This Trek calibration has proven critical for extreme accuracy"

It would be interesting to know what kind error reduction was achieved thanks to the calibration. Carl?

http://cds-0.blogspot.com
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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Your numbers are almost identical to HIM bike I did in September. Had to go back and check to make sure they were not the same! Slightly lower time and slightly less elevation change, but overall very close. An additional 40 watts doesn't sound too crazy for a 6 minute improvement on a hilly course. Is he the same weight?

Your head/helmet position combo looks very close to Jon Moen, 3rd picture and labeled in the ST Aero Camp photo gallery. I believe there was nothing that really edged the Javelin. He may chime in here, but I believe he also posted some results further up the thread.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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Epic-o wrote:
<snip>


I've written a bit about interaction effects:


Having some sort of visibility on relative wind speed is helpful when doing field testing. Flying blind could lead to spurious/difficult to explain data sets I would imagine.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Watt Matters wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:
Watt Matters wrote:
<snip>


Best of luck in your business ventures.


Thanks, but in reality it's just fun to make people faster and perform better <snip>

What are your rates?

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [owtbac86] [ In reply to ]
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what changes were made between the Vorttice and P-09?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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From a customer perspective, I think it would be a nice deliverable to have video of all my runs along with synched real-time data. Perhaps video from 5 IP cameras strategically placed on the track along with a data screen - all simultaneously displayed in a 6-way split screen. Networked weather stations around the track would be nice as well. These small investments (maybe <$2k) would help test directors as well I would imagine.

What are some other ideas that might improve the experience?

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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Must...resist...giving...too...much...away...

Not a huge deal in the velodrome. Outdoors: without a calibration function your avg yaw could easily be off by 25%.

Carl Matson
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Carl] [ In reply to ]
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Here is some example data from my test runs.




We tested 20 different probe positions and most of them with all four athlete positions. We originaly wanted to derive a calibration function as well, but since we want the measurement for help in bike fitting we didnt like that the measured dynamic pressure itself was position dependent we now measure air density once per pedal revolution and adjust accordingly.

@Kraig: I am not at all saying that the guy didnt do his homework, I just think you can only get so far without the help of windtunnels/track testing and a guy who has scientific experience in that field. I agree his gains are above average but not impossible.

@WattsMatter: Sounds pretty cool what you are doing. Sounds you worked with a few track athletes. Where are you based?
In Reply To:
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [warrior_80] [ In reply to ]
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warrior_80 wrote:
what changes were made between the Vorttice and P-09?

probably best answered by one of the LG folks if they're on here, but the p09 overall has a smaller frontal profile than the vorttice.

The p09 fits noticeably tighter and took a few rides to get used to, as it flattened my ears.

Visor attachment on p09 is a better arrangement than on vorttice, in my opinion.

Let me know if you want some side by side photos of the two lids - I can take those when I get home tonight.

Team Kiwami
Instagram
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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You really need to update that website soon with better pictures ect.
Especially that cell phone pic of the stash aero storage.
I already own one of your products (skewers, love them) and I would probably own two more of your products if they were better presented.


nealhe wrote:
Hello Ex-cyclist and All,

Ex-cyclist wrote: "The only time the Air Attack MIGHT be faster is if you are riding so head down you can't see."

I might be worth noting that there is a way to keep your head down and be comfortable and be able to see.

http://www.view-speed.com

Use View-Speed Cyclops glasses and see your speed increase about 1 mph.



Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [IJ] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IJ wrote:
We tested 20 different probe positions and most of them with all four athlete positions. We originaly wanted to derive a calibration function as well, but since we want the measurement for help in bike fitting we didnt like that the measured dynamic pressure itself was position dependent we now measure air density once per pedal revolution and adjust accordingly.


Why are you measuring dynamic pressure? To ensure inter-run repeatability? To calculate exact CdA values? To derive yaw and be able to do yaw sweeps with field tests?

I don't really see how an adjustment of air density can solve blockage effects. Adjusting density you just get a more accurate value of the relative velocities seen by the sensor

http://cds-0.blogspot.com
Last edited by: Epic-o: Jan 27, 14 9:55
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [scofflaw] [ In reply to ]
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Educated? Those are your words, not mine. I said "guess".

Jim commented that bc I was not going to be doing anything longer than 40K, there were some differences in the position. My head is pretty buried in my shoulders which are relatively wide, as are my hips. I did not test pad width as an old shoulder injury dictates a lot for me there but given my conformation, I would think that a wider position would shield my lower body and that might be why I got the nutty results on the BTA bottle. I suspect that somewhere in there is the reason that my helmet results seemed slightly out of sync with the others.

As to the Aeon, I ran it as my baseline bc I wanted to cover helmets for road/crit, as well as TT. My first several runs were position and BTA, all with the Aeon, which took me to .2449. The LG Rocket (also my helmet) tested at .2566. The Evade was .2648. The Wingspan .2403 and the P09 .2267. In my mind, that all makes sense, except the Aeon (which had far more runs than any other helmet so I am inclined to believe it's results). All the TT helmets tested faster than the aero road and they tested basically oldest=slowest to newest=fastest. IOW, technology works. Now that Aeon, just kind of blows my mind and I will certainly not be replacing it with any other aero road. It was after the fact that I looked it up on Giro's site and discovered that it was listed with the aero helmets as well as the road helmets.

If it matters, I tested with my team skinsuit (not very fast or tight), my P4 with standard brakes and a brezza bar w/s-bends (and stinky old bar tape- gasp!), training wheels. I was the only one testing on training wheels to get a final result of .2267 so it's not like ANY of those helmets actually sucked.

________________________________________________

Coach Brain: Accelerate 3 ; Incoherent Ramblings
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ridenfish39] [ In reply to ]
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ridenfish39 wrote:
Damn.....6'2'' and 140lb. I thought I was skinny at 6'2'' and 165lb. :D

It is tough to get aero AND MAKE POWER at our height. My output on the tt bike suffers as I get lower even with 5mm shorter cranks. I would love to work with an aero geek around here (Philly) to get me into a good position. I'm taking some advice from this thread and going longer to get my upper arms on more of an angle rather than perpendicular to the ground. Now if it would only get above 20 and stop snowing around here so I can get out and test the position :(

At our height, narrow is the best bet, and if you can manage, stretch yourself forward. I've never had troubles with the aero position, but I did ride quite conservative until 4 months ago. Went from 175mm to 170mm (not a big change), went another 5mm forwards (saddle-nose now ~2cm ahead of the BB, I guess I'm riding effective 89-90deg) and dropped around 4cm. Found it more comfortable with the weight now more firmly on my arms, which made the bike more stable. My FTP in aero is within error of what I measured on the bullhorns.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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tessartype wrote:
ridenfish39 wrote:
Damn.....6'2'' and 140lb. I thought I was skinny at 6'2'' and 165lb. :D

It is tough to get aero AND MAKE POWER at our height. My output on the tt bike suffers as I get lower even with 5mm shorter cranks. I would love to work with an aero geek around here (Philly) to get me into a good position. I'm taking some advice from this thread and going longer to get my upper arms on more of an angle rather than perpendicular to the ground. Now if it would only get above 20 and stop snowing around here so I can get out and test the position :(


At our height, narrow is the best bet, and if you can manage, stretch yourself forward. I've never had troubles with the aero position, but I did ride quite conservative until 4 months ago. Went from 175mm to 170mm (not a big change), went another 5mm forwards (saddle-nose now ~2cm ahead of the BB, I guess I'm riding effective 89-90deg) and dropped around 4cm. Found it more comfortable with the weight now more firmly on my arms, which made the bike more stable. My FTP in aero is within error of what I measured on the bullhorns.

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely experiment with going as long as I can til my power suffers.

I'm not a tri guy, just a time trial racer these days. If I could make my ftp in a stretched out low position I'd be dangerous :D
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Epic-o] [ In reply to ]
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We wanted to measure dynamic pressure to calculate cda more accurately. Now we are not using a prandtl probe anymore and assume ground speed as air speed and calculate dynamic pressure from ground speed and air density
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
Your numbers are almost identical to HIM bike I did in September. Had to go back and check to make sure they were not the same! Slightly lower time and slightly less elevation change, but overall very close. An additional 40 watts doesn't sound too crazy for a 6 minute improvement on a hilly course. Is he the same weight?

Your head/helmet position combo looks very close to Jon Moen, 3rd picture and labeled in the ST Aero Camp photo gallery. I believe there was nothing that really edged the Javelin. He may chime in here, but I believe he also posted some results further up the thread.

Nearly twice the elevation (1950m is approx. 6400ft), but on the other hand, you won ;) I paced myself carefully on the major climb and the headwind, which means lower 20min Max, IF and VI values (considering your IF and TSS, maybe it's time to update the threshold?). Recalculating it, the 40W difference does make sense. He weights slightly more but rides fancier equipment, so I'd estimate equal overall weight. He used 19% more power which, squared and multiplied by the 180min ride time, should theoretically result in ~6 minutes of time saved if my math is correct. Again, though, we were outliers, and he rides a size 51 P3 to my size 60 B2.

I bought the Javelin on a whim - it was the coolest-looking option at the expo that day and felt comfy. I learned to "wear it", so to speak, over the following season, shortening my neck and "turtleing" it. Only recent position changes allowed me to achieve a flush line over my back, at which point I think it'll be hard to improve upon.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [brynjulf] [ In reply to ]
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Hello brynjulf and All,

Thanks for the kind remarks.

...... And point well taken about the website ..... I agree that it could use more time and effort when available.

We have a couple of more patents and prototypes in the mill and when those are finished and tested (should be soon) we will transition to invest more time in the sales mode ..... or maybe just train more ..... :)

We are a very small shop and rely primarily on word of mouth sales at present ..... which are steady but in small volume .... and surprisingly we have orders coming from all over the world.

And since Kraig Willett has posted a bit here ......... I should mention that he ran our San Diego LSWT test you see in the photo.

Kraig is 'most excellent' at detailed aero test protocol procedures and can be reached at Bike Tech Review.

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting question and certainly one that is on my mind. I did run across the problem that my baseline from run 3 and run 8 were significantly different. This put some limitations on the data I have, but I can still compare 2-3 runs either side of both baselines, which covers pretty much everything.

Sorry to quote you from the middle of the thread, but this seems super important. If you only did two baseline runs and there was a significant difference, that does *not* mean that you can use one for the data points taken near it, and the other for the ones taken near it. The difference could be due to any number of random factors rather than drift. Two points doesn't tell you much of anything really. I'd want to see around 10.

I would argue that it may be smart for a triathlete with no experience on the track, etc. to do more than just a starting baseline, maybe baseline as frequently as every 2-3 runs if you are trying to isolate small changes like hydration.

Not only the baseline, but *every* data point needs to be repeated a few times... mixed up, random, and even blind if possible.

I suspect a lot of conclusions are drawn from insufficient data.



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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Ron, that is a good point in an ideal world, but as we all know, tunnel/velo testing costs money and time is limited. I understand your perspective on this and excellent point for field testing. unfortunately that means an 8 hr tunnel or velo day might only check 4 item or position changes. Might be better to give better insight on how you would propose to minimize cost/time to test ratios.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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2-3% is a significant change, for sure. Your point is well taken -- it would be hard to find any subtle deltas in that kind of noise.

Just speculating, but I can change my position a pretty huge amount without changing anything on my bike. I probably have 10cm or more of vertical movement just by changing how I hold my shoulders, and that doesn't even consider how I hold my neck and head. Add in smaller differences for how the helmet is fit to the head, sitting position, back arching, arm position, hand position, etc. It can be a lot unless you are very focused on keeping a particular position... *and* in tune with your body so you notice when it changes.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Might be better to give better insight on how you would propose to minimize cost/time to test ratios.

Any way you do it, it's either lots of time or lots of money... or both. It isn't easy.

I hate to be a dissenting voice, but people seem to be giving too much weight to single runs when there is significant variation. If you are getting scatter of +- 2% and helmet A tests 1% lower than helmet B, you haven't really learned anything. If you switch back and forth and get 5 data points for each helmet, and A *averages* 1% lower than B, then at least you can say that A is *probably* better.

In field testing outdoors you have to deal with wind variability, so you already know you need multiple runs for 1 data point. IME 10+. That means comparing configuration A to B... if it is something that isn't that easy to switch, do 5 out-back runs with A, switch to B and do 5 outback runs, and repeat. It's a long day and I have a bunch of data to deal with, and I have to analyze it to see what the drift and scatter and differences are to see if I learned anything... and I've just looked at two configurations!

When you test in the velodrome or wind tunnel the wind is at least stable and that increases your precision *and* reduces the repeats necessary... but you still have other factors, with positional variations being the largest and hardest to control. You can definitely save time *and* get better data than you can outside... but not if you take just one measurement and call it good.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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^
Bonus: at times it's easier to tell yourself that you're working on position/equipment rather than just putting in miles. For me, sometimes the uncertainty of experimentation makes "training" a bit more fun.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [IJ] [ In reply to ]
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IJ wrote:
@WattsMatter: Sounds pretty cool what you are doing. Sounds you worked with a few track athletes. Where are you based?

Track (endurance and sprint) riders, roadies, TT specialists, triathletes, paracyclists. Some are locals who are keen to improve for the pure fun of it (that's the main reason most of us ride) but also others who have more serious competitive ambitions and compete at world best level.

Asia-Pacific.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
Watt Matters wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:
Watt Matters wrote:
<snip>


Best of luck in your business ventures.


Thanks, but in reality it's just fun to make people faster and perform better <snip>


What are your rates?

Not sure, for many years have mostly just covered hire costs or have sponsored/helped people.
Any constructive suggestions?

If not, perhaps we both might want to leave it there, as this is about other people's cool things, new solutions, new technology, new processes, learning what's possible, exploring boundaries, making some mistakes and adapting, and helping people perform better while having fun and gaining confidence. And if some people can make a living doing that, nice. Just like being a teacher in a good school.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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So much for going off memory and guessing at 1/2 of the full Israman elevation listed in the ST write-up. Not good enough for the ST crowd!

Grand Columbian was a fun and interesting race. Literally my first ride with a powermeter, so really just data collection. Didn't even look at output during the race. The climb out is absolutely brutal. There were points were I was standing on the pedals in the small ring, big cog and hardly moving. Always hesitant to give people my time from that race when they ask for my HIM PR..."5 hours...but I won!"

Israman looks like a spectacular race, and definitely suited to my build with all of the climbing.

Interesting to hear that you adapted to that helmet. It certainly fits very nicely. Toss a post up here if you do get around to field testing it.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff-
Definitely something I have considered. Not sure my statistics teacher would have been to happy with the data!

I guess my interpretation of the situation falls in line with the following:

a) If you do 10 tests and theoretically save 40 watts, chances are you aren't getting slower. Sure, we didn't go through and re-run each test multiple times against a repeated baseline, but I don't think that's ever the plan when an amateur goes to the wind tunnel. If I pay for 2 hours at the wind tunnel, track, etc. I am going to try and pick the low hanging fruit. If my CdA drops from .26 to .24 chances are I didn't just get slower. It's certainly a possibility, but hopefully not the case.

b) I seemed to be the anomaly of those testing at the track at the camp. Quite a few people were able to repeat their baseline or at least get fairly close to it I believe. I went down to LA with a terrible position and ended up with ~3cm more reach, ~2cm forward rotation, and ~2cm more drop by the time I left on Sunday. It is VERY likely that I had not yet developed the specific muscles for the position, and therefore fatigued abnormally quickly. I am okay with assuming that I fatigued in an approximately linear manner as I don't think it would really be an all or nothing change. Maybe, but at this point I won't know.

b) Field testing is an entire different game. As the weather gets nicer in Seattle I am planning on doing a lot of it. Given that it's an outdoor velodrome repeat trials are essential as you said. At this point I am still working out the system, but for instance went down on Sunday and ran a trial of road helmet (A) vs. tt helmet (B) with 4 repeats of both just to get a sense for data recording, and testing flow (A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B). It's much more practical when you aren't time constrained and paying for the system to take your time. My plan is just to decide on one test for the "session" and focus all my runs on that test.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Aren't fast enough already?!! :-)

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely faster! ...but never fast enough!

In all seriousness, anticipating a bike switch shortly so I want to have the tools to work through some hydration options on the new bike and look at some sleeved alternatives to the Octane. Any recommendations on tops with tiny sleeves? Like girl sized tiny...
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
b) Field testing is an entire different game. As the weather gets nicer in Seattle I am planning on doing a lot of it. Given that it's an outdoor velodrome repeat trials are essential as you said.

There may be some protocol tweaks you can do to help nail things down. When the weather gets nicer give a holler.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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A tailor. Fin someone who can take it in for you.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Will do.

I was hoping to have some solid data from this weekend to look for critique's on, but my speed sensor was dropping out a bunch due to a cheap magnet. Any recommendations on magnets for use on a disc wheel? I could always use a box rim, but that wouldn't be as fun...

What is the best way to isolate Crr when rolling on the velodrome? I found Gribble's computational cyclist roll down calculator, but not sure that is the best approach. If not any estimates for the GP4000S, latex tubes, and wide rims on a concrete track? All this may be more appropriately placed in the Platypus thread...
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Somewhat afraid of what a tailor may think will work/try to do with a spandex like material that gets put under pretty high load. I might try it down the road. For now I am going to wait and see. Would like to get my hands on one of the Castelli Stealth T1 tops as I could swim/bike in that and then ditch it for the run.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
What is the best way to isolate Crr when rolling on the velodrome? I found Gribble's computational cyclist roll down calculator, but not sure that is the best approach. If not any estimates for the GP4000S, latex tubes, and wide rims on a concrete track? All this may be more appropriately placed in the Platypus thread...

If you really want to isolate Crr (and you don't always have to, but if you do) on an "unknown" or "first-time" track you'll have to be pretty careful. Basically, you'll have to double-check that your PM is calibrated right, that the speed sensor is working right, and you'll need a wide range of speed. One protocol is the "Shen method" (i.e., monotonic speed change).
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Shen method looks interesting. I'll have to do some more reading on it and then give it a shot.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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It's much more practical when you aren't time constrained and paying for the system to take your time.

I'm not in a big hurry either. I don't think you can be. I went out to test on 7 different days last summer and fall, and I'm still in the phase of working out my baseline and repeatability. Day to day it is around 1% if the wind (yaw) is similar and I compensate for tire temperature. Of course these are less of an issue if you switch back and forth on the same day, which is how you should do comparisons. Chart the numbers and look for drift or other odd trends.

Too many people think they don't need to worry about establishing scatter. You can do one run and get a number, so why confuse things by doing multiple runs, eh? I have a friend who went out and did a single out-back run (on a busy highway!) with two different configurations and concluded that one was better. I think he picked the right one at least.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely a benefit to having the velodrome, although even there you can get some funky results with other cyclists. It's somewhat on the way home from school for me so it is easy to just pick a couple days a week to go do some testing when I have time. Maybe it's time to revive/bump the platypus thread once I get a more solid set of baseline tests done.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Duckie] [ In reply to ]
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Duckie wrote:
My first several runs were position and BTA, all with the Aeon, which took me to .2449. The LG Rocket (also my helmet) tested at .2566. The Evade was .2648. The Wingspan .2403 and the P09 .2267.


Something seems amiss here with these data.

http://biketechreview.com/index.php/blog/551-specialized-evade-aero-helmet-claims

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
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Watt Matters wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

What are your rates?


Not sure, for many years have mostly just covered hire costs or have sponsored/helped people.
Any constructive suggestions?

Fair enough. You were very adamant in plopping your resume on the table, so I figured I'd give you the opportunity to finish your pitch.

My constructive suggestion would be to not quit your day job - keep field testing fun and stress-free...and understand the limitations of your tools/methodology.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Duckie] [ In reply to ]
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Duckie wrote:
Educated? Those are your words, not mine. I said "guess".

Jim commented that bc I was not going to be doing anything longer than 40K, there were some differences in the position. My head is pretty buried in my shoulders which are relatively wide, as are my hips. I did not test pad width as an old shoulder injury dictates a lot for me there but given my conformation, I would think that a wider position would shield my lower body and that might be why I got the nutty results on the BTA bottle. I suspect that somewhere in there is the reason that my helmet results seemed slightly out of sync with the others.

As to the Aeon, I ran it as my baseline bc I wanted to cover helmets for road/crit, as well as TT. My first several runs were position and BTA, all with the Aeon, which took me to .2449. The LG Rocket (also my helmet) tested at .2566. The Evade was .2648. The Wingspan .2403 and the P09 .2267. In my mind, that all makes sense, except the Aeon (which had far more runs than any other helmet so I am inclined to believe it's results). All the TT helmets tested faster than the aero road and they tested basically oldest=slowest to newest=fastest. IOW, technology works. Now that Aeon, just kind of blows my mind and I will certainly not be replacing it with any other aero road. It was after the fact that I looked it up on Giro's site and discovered that it was listed with the aero helmets as well as the road helmets.

If it matters, I tested with my team skinsuit (not very fast or tight), my P4 with standard brakes and a brezza bar w/s-bends (and stinky old bar tape- gasp!), training wheels. I was the only one testing on training wheels to get a final result of .2267 so it's not like ANY of those helmets actually sucked.

Do you have any side pics of the different runs? I've been in the tunnel and did quite a few position changes and helmet changes and my bandwidth was so much tighter. My base aero to what I thought was an extreme aero position only lowered me by .005. At least it confirmed I was slippery. To swap an aero helmet for another aero helmet and drop .03 is unfreakin believable. I use the lg rocket and am very curious about the PO9.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
rruff-
Definitely something I have considered. Not sure my statistics teacher would have been to happy with the data!

I'd be curious to see others post data from their repeat runs. I don't recall seeing any others in this thread, but it is a long thread...and I'm getting old!

I don't think you got any less aerodynamic (based on position changes alone that you describe, I'd have expected a 2-3% CxA improvement). Head position is another biggie that is low hanging fruit.



The challenge with your data set presented in this thread (as I see it) is in answering with any amount of certainty: why might you have gotten more aerodynamic? and, _how much_ more aerodynamic are you really (important when you start thinking speed/supply side issues)?

Best of luck with your upcoming field testing - I like the way you are thinking!

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
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Nice. All the best to your athletes racing in Cali!
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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coates_hbk wrote:
Id keep it and just wait for the P09 to be available to the masses

Checked the P09, it's not available yet unfortunately, ordered the Selector mainly for the style and color. And Cancellara was wearing it before but maybe this year they'll be wearing bontrager helmets. Probably keeping the wingspan anyways in case.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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I will just make this general comment. I feel this thread have somewhat derailed and the testing that was performed taking out of context. The athletes, me included, are not professionals. We all have day jobs and triathlon is our hobby. We had to pay to do the testing. No one had a sponsor that paid for testing, hotel, airfare, car rental, taxi etc. Most of us had to burn a few days of vacation in order to attend. In this thread we are not trying to sell you anything. We know there is a lot of interest around aero testing in general and we decided we would be willing to share our experience. The way you try to hold us accountable for the numbers and the repeatability is unrealistic. On average we had about 12 runs each and a ton of stuff we wanted to test. I did 10 runs and of those 10 runs two were baseline runs. Without looking up the numbers I cant give you the exact delta between the two runs but they were very close.

If I had time and money I would do many repeat runs. I happen to have a good statistics background and I use statistics daily for work so I understand what you guys are talking about. I understand that the numbers reported are single data points. I simply cannot afford to do 30 runs just to determine if 15mm of less stack is better or worse than my base line. I did one run and it showed much worse numbers so I abandoned it. If I didnt I would have used up all my 10 runs on that one change and still not had a sample size that would be large enough to show a statistically significant difference. What some of you are asking of us is simply not realistic.

I have in the past bitched about equipment manufacturers not showing their data. We get a graph showing how much better wheel A performs compared to wheel B. We never get to see if the difference between wheel A and B is statistically significant. As a consumer I feel they should show give us that information. If not, that sexy graph they give us in my mind is not worth much as it can be very misleading. The manufacturers are trying to sell you something. The weekend warriors hat did the testing are not trying to sell you something. Trying to hold Heath accountable for a big drop of his drag number is not realistic. Heath like the rest of us had a limited number of runs. The huge drop for him came late in the testing session. There was not time to repeat the run 15-20 times nor was that in anyones budget.

The demand for repeat runs and statistically significant data from us is not realistic. If anything you should be adamant about getting that from the equipment manufactures. Not from a bunch of age groupers doing testing spending their own time and money.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just curious but what do you think constitutes a "run"?

We did at least 10 laps on each setup but each lap is measured. So is that 10 runs?

Some changes we made were so obviously worse that we would just bail out on the run because you can watch the numbers pop up each lap.

If you were doing the testing, how many laps would be a "run" and how many times would you do that for each change? Keep in mind that you are riding, not sitting in a wind tunnel.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here's a question I haven't seen anyone pose yet: did anybody try a "mantis" position and, if so, how did it work for them.

From what I've gathered, the mantis position either works or it doesn't but when it does it's extremely effective.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I think it was posted, but it might have been a question I answered elsewhere as it is all starting to run together now. At any rate, Frosty was going to try it but the i.d. of the extensions he brought were too small to get the shifters into. We could have cut the cables and blocked a gear, but he decided not to hassle with it because of the PIA cabling a TREK SC is.

I've seen it both work and not work from observations in wind tunnel testing. For one person is was much better and the other it was worse. Most of my exposure to wind tunnel testing has been with pro cyclists who are bound to UCI rules, so I've not seen it tested a lot of times.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Back to the OP:

Again, thanks very much for answering these questions. A supplementary: earlier in the thread, I think I read you were experiencing good things with the Torhans 30. In your opinion, is the benefit due to it creating a fairing effect and mimicking a long front "wing" as it transitions to the headtube, or is the benefit from the superior t30 trailing edge?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
Somewhat afraid of what a tailor may think will work/try to do with a spandex like material that gets put under pretty high load. I might try it down the road. For now I am going to wait and see. Would like to get my hands on one of the Castelli Stealth T1 tops as I could swim/bike in that and then ditch it for the run.

Fabric glue works wonders, and will definitely hold under load. Get an accomplice to pin it up while you're in position, fold and glue, and you're set. I did a prototype using a set of armcoolers and a craft stretchy cooling top and it was rock solid. Got the stuff at Walmart iirc.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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davetallo wrote:
Back to the OP:

Again, thanks very much for answering these questions. A supplementary: earlier in the thread, I think I read you were experiencing good things with the Torhans 30. In your opinion, is the benefit due to it creating a fairing effect and mimicking a long front "wing" as it transitions to the headtube, or is the benefit from the superior t30 trailing edge?

For me it did not work well. I have a p5-3, so I don't have the front fairing/nose cone. I could not get the bottle close enough to the headtube with the bars I was running (Ventus). Those that it worked well for were those that had bayonet style head tubes. I *think* the real trick to getting those bottle to work really well is to have them close to the headtube. My gut says that it extends the chord of the front of the bike in this case.

If someone were to ask me about the bottle and they had a bayonet style front (p5-6, SC, Felt, Orbea) I would recommend the bottles for sure.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ex-cyclist wrote:
davetallo wrote:
Back to the OP:

Again, thanks very much for answering these questions. A supplementary: earlier in the thread, I think I read you were experiencing good things with the Torhans 30. In your opinion, is the benefit due to it creating a fairing effect and mimicking a long front "wing" as it transitions to the headtube, or is the benefit from the superior t30 trailing edge?


For me it did not work well. I have a p5-3, so I don't have the front fairing/nose cone. I could not get the bottle close enough to the headtube with the bars I was running (Ventus). Those that it worked well for were those that had bayonet style head tubes. I *think* the real trick to getting those bottle to work really well is to have them close to the headtube. My gut says that it extends the chord of the front of the bike in this case.

If someone were to ask me about the bottle and they had a bayonet style front (p5-6, SC, Felt, Orbea) I would recommend the bottles for sure.

Sadly won't work with -6 due to Aduro "integrated" bottle mount (the little carbon plate that goes from collet to collet to support forward bottle mount bolt). I was sad when I realized that post-ordering.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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could you not carefully remove that part? i'd like to myself
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed on wanting it gone. But not willing to make it so
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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i have a couple aduro parts i want removed
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [FrostyJ] [ In reply to ]
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FrostyJ wrote:
I feel this thread have somewhat derailed and the testing that was performed taking out of context.

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)

FWIW, this thread makes me feel like little context has been provided for the data shared. Random number generators will give you a black/white answer - and, smart people will craft a line of reasoning that is supported by those outputs. That's what smart people do - try to find meaning/patterns in stuff. This behavior is also what can lead them to believe weird things.

Oh, yeah, and I'm not suggesting it's feasible to do 15-20 repeats of every configuration. I've been on a variety of sides of this kind of deal (customer, observer, director, etc...) and understand that compromises need to be made. It takes awhile to find what works better and what doesn't work quite as well from a test design perspective. I still haven't found the perfect method, but it is fun trying to.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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We did at least 10 laps on each setup but each lap is measured. So is that 10 runs?

No. It depends on how much data you need so that random variables that aren't accounted for average out. In the velodrome the big one would be position related.
Your posture might evolve and drift during the day for better or worse. Getting off the bike or just standing awhile and sitting back down would be helpful. Taking the helmet off and putting it back on. Same with skinsuits.

If you can establish that your baseline is reliable +-X% by actually testing it at several points throughout the day, then you have some idea what you are working with. If you don't establish it, you don't have a clue.

I'd still test each configuration at least 3 times throughout the day. If you can get a good measurement with 5 laps instead of 10, that's fine... but you need to switch things up. If a configuration obviously sucks then sure you can drop it.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Fastyellow wrote:
If you were doing the testing, how many laps would be a "run" and how many times would you do that for each change? Keep in mind that you are riding, not sitting in a wind tunnel.

Here's a sample run using the work per lap bootstrap method I've evolved to:



despite what the stated CV was for this run, when this same configuration is tested over multiple days/runs, the CV comes out nearer to 2% (or more) for CxA...a little worse for Crr. so, if you are doing science, it'll take a lot of runs to give your experimental protocol/method the power to detect a 1% difference at, say, a 95% confidence level => 16*(2/1)^2 runs as a estimate.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Any insider info on these new long sleeve tri-clothing? Champ Sys has the one piece one for $200ish I think, but I'm more interested in the top only and better designs. Waiting for it to be more mass produced and sold as top/bottom. It will reduce my use of sunblock and cover more arm area, I can also use it in both road riding and racing (I only use tri tops on races or OWS to hold my HR strap on). Thanks again for your input, helps us AG'ers a lot considering most of us rely on eye-tunnel.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)

Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian,

Regarding the Speed Concepts, I noticed on the home page article that both riders had aero bottles on the down tube, did that set up seem to yield better results than no bottle? Also Rebecca was running what looks like a Profile bottle though it might have been a Tor Hans, do you know if that tested faster than without. I understand all this is rider specific but I am curious. Lastly was the Bell helmet the faster helmet for you and did it generally yield a solid result?

steven
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [spr-2-cus] [ In reply to ]
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spr-2-cus wrote:
Brian,

Regarding the Speed Concepts, I noticed on the home page article that both riders had aero bottles on the down tube, did that set up seem to yield better results than no bottle? Also Rebecca was running what looks like a Profile bottle though it might have been a Tor Hans, do you know if that tested faster than without. I understand all this is rider specific but I am curious. Lastly was the Bell helmet the faster helmet for you and did it generally yield a solid result?

steven

Both SC was tested with aero bottles on the seat tubes. Rebecca had a bonty bottle and I had a PF bottle. Neither of us tested without the bottle. I can't speak for Rebecca but I keep my nutrition in the aero bottle on the seat tube so it will be there regardless so I felt no need to test without it.

I don't remember exactly what Rebecca tested up front. I know she tested a bta bottle, the PF bottle and the TH 20. The TH 20 tesdted fastest for her.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [asad137] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
asad137 wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)


Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!

One way to build trust and loyalty is through complete transparency.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [spr-2-cus] [ In reply to ]
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http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=4947021#4947021

I think that may answer your SC questions or FrostyJ may have if that doesn't.

The Giro A2 was the 2nd fastest helmet, the Selector was the fastest for me. The only Bell I tested was the 20+ yr old Bell Meteor. The Selector we had came from UHC cycling team. They were sponsored by Bell helmets, which Giro owns, and therefore had access to both helmets. That may have caused some confusion. I did, just to be safe, buy a Bell Javelin from TriSports the other day though. It's something I'll test at aero camp V2.0.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BikeTechReview wrote:
asad137 wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)


Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!


One way to build trust and loyalty is through complete transparency.
.
Umm...I don't think any of us give a shit about building trust and loyalty. We were simply referring to asking us questions about our experience. If you have an issue with the protocol of the testing, shoot an email over to Jim Manton at ERO and you two can have it out. It is also up to him if he wants to give you all the insights you desire since it's his system. If you can devise a better one, have at it...you'd probably make a lot of money. It's obvious you question the veracity of the testing and I don't think anyone who attended the camp really wants a typical ST showdown of people that think they are smarter than each other. Most of the people who attended the camp know that if they show the specifics it's probably going to end that way (no matter who's right or wrong). So, head on over to the Velodrome, check it out for yourself, and you can do a grand article on what you think.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Have you been able to do any comparative testing of Specialized Evade vs. LG Course helmets? If yes, anything you could share with us?
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Did anyone test typical cycling gloves vs no gloves vs aero gloves? Sorry if this was already addressed earlier in this thread.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Fastyellow wrote:
Umm...I don't think any of us give a shit about building trust and loyalty.

I would think that the OP and the person using the system on a weekly basis would be interested in those things. But, I could be wrong!

Quote:
<snip>...you'd probably make a lot of money.

I don't think I could do field testing with folks off the street any better, and even if someone could...Well, it's possible they'd make some money, but, realistically most people don't give a shit about these sorts of things. We do live in the age of "information is a commodity" these days, eh?

Quote:
So, head on over to the Velodrome, check it out for yourself,<snip>.

I've tested over there before, I might learn something new revisiting it, you're right. It's been about 10 years since my first field test by powermeter, and it's still a tricky piece of work.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Curious about this myself.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GMAN19030 wrote:
Did anyone test typical cycling gloves vs no gloves vs aero gloves? Sorry if this was already addressed earlier in this thread.

I don't believe so as the group were triathletes and pretty much only testing triathlon setups.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Another way to is to conduct yourself with grace.



BikeTechReview wrote:
asad137 wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)


Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!

One way to build trust and loyalty is through complete transparency.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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They aren't mutually exclusive are they? Fwiw I haven't come to any conclusions yet. Just observed some funky data and tried to put these data into some sort of context by asking some questions.

You compile a lot of data Jack, what do you think of what has been shared in this thread?

jackmott wrote:
Another way to is to conduct yourself with grace.



BikeTechReview wrote:
asad137 wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)


Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!

One way to build trust and loyalty is through complete transparency.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's obvious you question the veracity of the testing and I don't think anyone who attended the camp really wants a typical ST showdown of people that think they are smarter than each other. Most of the people who attended the camp know that if they show the specifics it's probably going to end that way (no matter who's right or wrong).

I'm not the person you were answering, but I question the veracity of pretty much everything. This is science... statistical analysis and running controlled tests isn't exactly a black art. If the specifics are revealed, then isn't that a good thing regardless? Good for people who wish to *know* anyway. Not necessarily good for the operators (since it might go either way), but I'd think definitely good for the participants. You should consider yourself lucky that people with knowledge about these things (and no dog in the hunt) would be willing to spend their time for free and post their thoughts and analysis publically! I know I am grateful whenever that happens.

So, head on over to the Velodrome, check it out for yourself, and you can do a grand article on what you think.

I think Kraig could do that pretty easily... I hope he does.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ChampySys does not offer the Apex Speedsuit for that price. A single suit custom made is $720. It's only $240 if you get 10 people to buy in with you. The pricing is interesting. With 5 people, it drops to $480. The Pearl Izumi Octane Tri speedsuit is $300 and going for $180 on Amazon right now

http://champ-sys.com/triathlon/tri-pricelist

http://www.amazon.com/...zumi+Octane+Tri+suit

http://shop.pearlizumi.com/...=1644423&outlet=

I've been looking at these suits for the past 2 weeks. I'd prefer ChampSys but the pricing is tough.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Jan 30, 14 9:20
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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+1...

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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but then you have to define your "position" rather loosely to get 10 runs with it in the field or anywhere else unless you are a mannequin. even while attempting to hold the exact same position while not moving in a tunnel there will be slight variations even before fatigue sets in. slightly off in saddle, slightly different hand/fingers, slightly different head height/dip, knee tracking, etc. doing 10 repeats for one point gives you one point on 10 trials which you then avg together. then come race day, you might still be slightly different due to different race wheels/tires affecting the height of the front end vs the rear. tough to win in that case
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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I'm pretty sure the Champion System pricing you're quoting is for custom apparel. It looks like you can buy the speedsuit for $240 with just the Champion System text: http://champ-sys.com/...it.html#.UuqR5NKDmSo
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [dmorris] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nope, I just got done talking to them about made to order suits with the Champion System text. They said the Apex Suit was not offered

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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With all due respect: I think you have done great work in the past and you have influenced me a lot how I think about bike aerodynamics. However lately it seems like all you do is criticize other peoples work. The last posts I read from you were "not impressed" were you just assumed erosports doesn't measure air density, were you criticized tom anhalts back angle test results, were you critized specialized helmet claims and now in this thread. I also found it funny that you criticized the one guy for talking about his aerodynamics work in a in your mind too advertising way, but one page later upload a huge picture with your method and a " biketechreview data you can trust" sticker on it.
This might be just my perception though.
I think erosports is doing a great job at what their doing. You really notice all the smart thoughts and hard work that they put into it when you try to do sth like they are doing. I am also very thankful for the guys that posted their test results even though they spend their own money on it and could use the knowledge to gain an advantage.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The point is that there is uncertainty and variability in any testing protocol and you need to know what it is. The errors can be mitigated by doing repeats, but you need to know the variability and the desired resolution to know what the number of repeats should be.

A wind tunnel is certainly not a "take one data point and call it good" environment either. I was able to analyze someone's wind tunnel data a few years back and the scatter there was significantly greater than the resolution he needed. In other words, since most tests were not repeated, the data was worth approximately nothing.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rruff wrote:
It's obvious you question the veracity of the testing and I don't think anyone who attended the camp really wants a typical ST showdown of people that think they are smarter than each other. Most of the people who attended the camp know that if they show the specifics it's probably going to end that way (no matter who's right or wrong).

I'm not the person you were answering, but I question the veracity of pretty much everything. This is science... statistical analysis and running controlled tests isn't exactly a black art. If the specifics are revealed, then isn't that a good thing regardless? Good for people who wish to *know* anyway. Not necessarily good for the operators (since it might go either way), but I'd think definitely good for the participants. You should consider yourself lucky that people with knowledge about these things (and no dog in the hunt) would be willing to spend their time for free and post their thoughts and analysis publically! I know I am grateful whenever that happens.

So, head on over to the Velodrome, check it out for yourself, and you can do a grand article on what you think.

I think Kraig could do that pretty easily... I hope he does.

I agree and disagree. I just don't think ST is science and don't put it on the same level as "peer review". I'm not willing to put someone's business out there for people to trash because it's just far to easy for the numbskulls who know nothing to make comments that are damaging.

It's very similar to This

If the discussion were closed to those with actual credentials to discuss the topic at hand, I may have a different opinion.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BryanD wrote:
ChampySys does not offer the Apex Speedsuit for that price. A single suit custom made is $720. It's only $240 if you get 10 people to buy in with you. The pricing is interesting. With 5 people, it drops to $480. The Pearl Izumi Octane Tri speedsuit is $300 and going for $180 on Amazon right now

http://www.amazon.com/...zumi+Octane+Tri+suit

I've been looking at these suits for the past 2 weeks. I'd prefer ChampSys but the pricing is tough.


Ooowww that Octane is looking good but I don't know about the all black. Seems too hot...Planning WF this year with other long course races that might be warm/hot too. Maybe I'll have to wait for more styles and possibly when they offer tops separately. As per their testing the fit is important so fitting them first and making sure there are no wrinkles before buying would be the best. I'm still tempted to get that Octane for the price though.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The material is pretty light, I'd race in a black suit and not worry too much about it and I live in AZ.

But, if I were in your shoes, I might be willing to put off buying something for a few more months. For 3 reasons.
1. A poor fitting suit is probably significantly slower vs your normal tri kit. I might just size down 1 size. That seemed to work well for most people.
2. I rather strongly suspect a few more suits by different manufacturers might be hitting the market this racing season.
3. This one is fact then speculation. There is still a lot of R&D/testing/thinking about patterns going into these suits. Now for the speculation: I think companies are thinking about further refinements to these suits and wondering how to bring those refinements to market.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 30, 14 11:04
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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yes, but black is "FAST"!

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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yes, but if you are testing there you at least ought to go back to a baseline now and then, whether it is the original baseline or a new established one later on. if you are paying attention, you can get repeated to within a handful a g's. but still that may not be how you end up riding same position in the field. some things are obvious in the tunnel, like a 20w drop or rise and the tunnel folks will note if there is an obvious cause, like you raised your head up from one run to next and will stop and point it out to you and have you rerun. I think I would have some transparent cling material to place over their screen than they could use dry erase markers on to mark indices of position to be sure you are hitting some of the same markers from run to run. Not sure they would, but something you cant do in the field or on velodrome.

I would definitely not argue against checks of baseline from time to time no matter where testing occurring.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [IJ] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IJ wrote:
snip

Thanks for the feedback.

This thread isn't about my publishing history but i feel it is balanced on the whole. You'll note that recently I published tunnel data on tires, a parts list for a wind probe and in this thread I've made suggestions that might improve customer experience (ip cameras).

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You can get the exact same top as the Tri Octane for $47 bucks on Amazon. Just google Pearl Izumi Speed Jersey. Its the same top as the Tri Octane i.e. paterned sleeves but for only $47 bucks its hard to pass up.


flyrunride wrote:
BryanD wrote:
ChampySys does not offer the Apex Speedsuit for that price. A single suit custom made is $720. It's only $240 if you get 10 people to buy in with you. The pricing is interesting. With 5 people, it drops to $480. The Pearl Izumi Octane Tri speedsuit is $300 and going for $180 on Amazon right now

http://www.amazon.com/...zumi+Octane+Tri+suit

I've been looking at these suits for the past 2 weeks. I'd prefer ChampSys but the pricing is tough.



Ooowww that Octane is looking good but I don't know about the all black. Seems too hot...Planning WF this year with other long course races that might be warm/hot too. Maybe I'll have to wait for more styles and possibly when they offer tops separately. As per their testing the fit is important so fitting them first and making sure there are no wrinkles before buying would be the best. I'm still tempted to get that Octane for the price though.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm not willing to put someone's business out there for people to trash because it's just far to easy for the numbskulls who know nothing to make comments that are damaging.

Do *you* know anything about controlled testing and uncertainty? If not, then *you* are the one making "damaging" comments... damaging to the truth that is.

I know something, and Kraig probably knows a lot. Neither of us is a "troll or spambot" (via your link). You may not like his attitude and he may have an axe to grind (I have no idea), but peer review isn't all warm fuzzies either. I can assure you that I don't have an axe to grind, and based on what I've seen from their prior posts and the information they've shared over the years, I like Jim and Andy quite a lot and wish them all the best. I just want to know what the real deal is because I'm interested in aero testing.

Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're right....I'll stop talking and let you guys hash it out in good old ST style.

Maybe they should put a disclaimer on the results "for entertainment purposes only - do not try and land planes with information gathered here."

That way everyone knows this is all for fun.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
flyrunride wrote:
BryanD wrote:
ChampySys does not offer the Apex Speedsuit for that price. A single suit custom made is $720. It's only $240 if you get 10 people to buy in with you. The pricing is interesting. With 5 people, it drops to $480. The Pearl Izumi Octane Tri speedsuit is $300 and going for $180 on Amazon right now

http://www.amazon.com/...zumi+Octane+Tri+suit

I've been looking at these suits for the past 2 weeks. I'd prefer ChampSys but the pricing is tough.



Ooowww that Octane is looking good but I don't know about the all black. Seems too hot...Planning WF this year with other long course races that might be warm/hot too. Maybe I'll have to wait for more styles and possibly when they offer tops separately. As per their testing the fit is important so fitting them first and making sure there are no wrinkles before buying would be the best. I'm still tempted to get that Octane for the price though.


The octane tri suit is very, very paper like thin. It is not hot, it has UPF 50+, and it is the coolest feeling cycling/tri suit I've ever worn. It feels cooler than sleeveless options. I've used it in several humid hot (mid 80s while cycling) races, and never had an issue. Team Sky wears an all black kit, and maybe they share the same properties in cooling.
Last edited by: mcycle: Feb 1, 14 18:31
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
The material is pretty light, I'd race in a black suit and not worry too much about it and I live in AZ.

But, if I were in your shoes, I might be willing to put off buying something for a few more months. For 3 reasons.

Thanks I'll be following your advice good sir. I still have a lot of low hanging fruit to work on anyways (especially on the swim) but trying to squeeze what I can for time goals this year.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hello jeffp and All,

jeffp wrote: " I think I would have some transparent cling material to place over their screen than they could use dry erase markers on to mark indices of position to be sure you are hitting some of the same markers from run to run."

Good thought, actually they do (in the SD LSWT wind tunnel) as you can see if you look closely in this photo (grease pencil tracings left over from the last runs I made as a new run, by a different rider, is started) seeing tracings which were used to verify that the rider position is unchanging during the run.

These markings are made full size on the wind tunnel window in the control room as I recall.



I was wearing View-Speed Cyclops glasses and pedaling at a fairly low and consistent
wattage so the sight picture and position were relative easy to maintain - and the data fields are projected in the tunnel real time for the rider to observe so you can see any variations made during the run. I was able to frame the projected data fields in the Cyclops glasses to lock in the position.

Also there is a speaker in the tunnel so the tunnel operators can announce information easily to the test subject if corrections are required. In my case my jersey was riding up my back when I would sit up and stretch after each run ...... and I had to pull it down at the start of each new run. I was impressed that the balance could measure the difference of the seam placement of my jersey ...... also indicating the sensitivity of the airflow over the back to disruption.

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster


Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hi Heath. in terms of the PI Octane Tri Suit, what size were you wearing and how much do you weigh, height, chest...thinking of pulling the trigger but interested in sizing comparisons. Thanks so much for giving all the aero info to the ST community :)


Ex-cyclist wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:
Runless wrote:
Heath is pictured in 16 and 20 and the captions talk about some of his changes. Sounds like clothes and helmet were a big part of things
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Aero_Camp_4145.html


thanks for the heads up on the images. his position and equipment in 16 suggests to me that a 14% improvement is indeed extraordinary.

fwiw, a std road helmet to a full-on aero helmet is about a 3% delta at beta=0.


You of all people should know better than to trust the "eye-ball" wind tunnel. And I'm sure you're not suggesting that your eye is better than what they are doing up the road from you at the Velosports Center.

At any rate, my baseline run was .2643. That is what is pictured in number 16. My next change was dropping the armrests down 1cm. that got me to .2507. I then took off the rear bottle which barely moved the needle but did slightly down to .2494. The helmet, as your extensive experience showed you was not a huge CdA dropper, but it did drop it to .2447. The last change was to test in the PI skin suit, that dropped me down to .2267

This seems to jive pretty well with what others have found:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4165683#4165683


And based on manufacturers claims from companies like Castelli and Pearl, while eye opening, the savings from the suit doesn't seem too far out of line. FWIW, the Kiwami suit is a probably not as tight as it should be (I ordered up a size due to body length which was a mistake) and it exposes a lot more skin than a normal top.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Don't know if Heath saw this. But I've hung out with him enough to know that he's about 6'3 and ~195 but decreasing.

My advice would be to try it on without removing the tags and see how it fits. It there are no wrinkles in the shoulder are and it it tight on the legs, not bunching up elsewhere then you can think about removing the tags.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
Don't know if Heath saw this. But I've hung out with him enough to know that he's about 6'3 and ~195 but decreasing.

My advice would be to try it on without removing the tags and see how it fits. It there are no wrinkles in the shoulder are and it it tight on the legs, not bunching up elsewhere then you can think about removing the tags.

Heath got a medium.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Perfect, thanks so much guys and not just for the info on the PI suit sizing. It's great to see all of you willing to share information that you paid hard earned money for.

Cheers,
Ender
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
Don't know if Heath saw this. But I've hung out with him enough to know that he's about 6'3 and ~195 but decreasing.

My advice would be to try it on without removing the tags and see how it fits. It there are no wrinkles in the shoulder are and it it tight on the legs, not bunching up elsewhere then you can think about removing the tags.

188-90 right now.. But I hang my head since I clearly won the fat kid competition at camp. I race at around 178-80. The suit still fit pretty tight in the shoulders and arms. It just fit a bit tighter around the middle at AeroCamp



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
good to know. I was going to get medium but at 5"10 and 150 -155 I expect the fit will not be tight enough. I'll give small a go.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just out of curiosity, did anyone test the TYR carbon trisuit? I'm assuming it would not be as good as the PI or any suit with sleeves (assuming no wrinkles!), but just wondering if TYR carbon producing less drag than a non-carbon trisuit.

Also, I just read the CEP and Zoot calf compression sleeves may be beneficial, any input on arm sleeves? I've raced with them before during cold weather, but had no idea they would impact drag positively or negatively.

Any input is appreciated and thank you for sharing all this information.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rich_m wrote:
good to know. I was going to get medium but at 5"10 and 150 -155 I expect the fit will not be tight enough. I'll give small a go.

I'm 6'-0" and around 155 and I went with the small. The legs/torso fit tightly but I'm getting some bunching in the shoulders. I may look into getting it tailored or experimenting with some glue product as someone previously mentioned. Maybe I should start lifting just to fill out the suit. Tags are still on so I haven't committed yet. This thread has me questioning my purchase. Damn science.

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Last edited by: santino314: Feb 2, 14 10:27
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [smarty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To my knowledge no one specifically tested a TYR suit. Now someone may have been using that as their suit they were testing in, which is completely different.

Calf sleeves may be faster. I know one person tested them and they were not but I've also talked to people who tested and found them to be faster. I think the verdict is still Maybe. I suspect it's also individualized. It was on my list to test but I ran out of my allotted time. When I test again they are on the list.

I don't know anyone who has ever tested arm warmers or sleeves. I think we'd have to infer from the suits and predict what may happen. But lots of skin suits have sleeves and we know skin is slow. I think the skin suits that are out there could be much faster given some of the stuff I learned.

I think if you get the texturing correct, especially on the bicep/upper arm area they have the potential to be faster.

Round cylinders are slow and guess what a lot of our arms act like when we are in the aero bars? We know texturing around cylinders can delay boundary layer separation & reduce the size of the wake region.

But I think for now with the arm sleeves that are out there it's a roll of the dice. This would be something interesting to test though. If you have specific ones you are thinking about PM me those brands. When I test I can put those on the list. I'll do some runs wearing them if I have time.

When it's 40-50F out and if it's going to be raining, maybe especially if it's going to be raining, I think staying warm may be more important than shivering.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rich_m wrote:
good to know. I was going to get medium but at 5"10 and 150 -155 I expect the fit will not be tight enough. I'll give small a go.

I'm similar and got the small after trying on a small and medium.
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Definitely a small.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [smarty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
smarty wrote:
Just out of curiosity, did anyone test the TYR carbon trisuit? I'm assuming it would not be as good as the PI or any suit with sleeves (assuming no wrinkles!), but just wondering if TYR carbon producing less drag than a non-carbon trisuit.

Also, I just read the CEP and Zoot calf compression sleeves may be beneficial, any input on arm sleeves? I've raced with them before during cold weather, but had no idea they would impact drag positively or negatively.

Any input is appreciated and thank you for sharing all this information.

I'm guessing that the "carbon" bit is a little tongue in cheek?



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, I was curious. Maybe it's a silly question, but this aero testing information is new to me and I'm trying to learn what's good / what's not. The TYR carbon is the same material used for the Team USA uniform and they fit extremely tight. I like the material and was considering purchasing a black/red one for local races until I started reading about the PI Octane and other aero clothing coming soon. However, I would hate to waste watt on poor clothing choices.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [smarty] [ In reply to ]
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smarty wrote:
Actually, I was curious. Maybe it's a silly question, but this aero testing information is new to me and I'm trying to learn what's good / what's not. The TYR carbon is the same material used for the Team USA uniform and they fit extremely tight. I like the material and was considering purchasing a black/red one for local races until I started reading about the PI Octane and other aero clothing coming soon. However, I would hate to waste watt on poor clothing choices.

I have one but the only "carbon" that is on there is the little black specs in the white mesh. I think it is supposed to keep you cooler or some non-sense. At any rate, I think the material is pretty similar to most high end trisuits. The material is woven not knit so it is a bit less stretchy, more compressive and sheds water a touch better. I'm sure it would work fine. If you can find a Pearl suit that fits well in the shoulders and sleeves get it. I do have a feeling that more and more companies are going to be producing short sleeve suits since the market is starting to demand it. The question is will they actually be faster or not.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian, thanks for the response, I appreciate the feedback. I use the Moeben running arm sleeves, I'm just amazed covering skin can make such a difference. Also, wanted to give a shout out to you and everyone about the LG P09 findings. I just ordered that helmet for my wife and I yesterday, hoping that we fall within the 80% group that it tested faster for!
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [smarty] [ In reply to ]
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Tried on a friends size small Tri Octane suit yesterday. For reference I'm 5'7, 140lbs and it was really tight. The fabric is like nothing I've ever worn (Desoto, TYR, 2xu) it is insanely thin and actually feels like skin. The attention to detail in the seams is also amazing.

That said I did notice 2-3 small creases around the biceps area when in the aero position. For the guys that tested the suit, is this normal? The creases weren't huge but I'd certainly be interested in hearing your opinion on the suit fit around the biceps.

Cheers,
Ender
Last edited by: EnderWiggan: Feb 19, 14 7:31
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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EnderWiggan wrote:
Tried on a friends size small Tri Octane suit yesterday. For reference I'm 5'7, 140lbs and it was really tight. The fabric is like nothing I've ever worn (Desoto, TYR, 2xu) it is insanely thin and actually feels like skin. The attention to detail in the seams is also amazing.

That said I did notice 2-3 small creases around the biceps area when in the aero position. For the guys that tested the suit, is this normal? The creases weren't huge but I'd certainly be interested in hearing your opinion on the suit fit around the biceps.

Cheers,
Ender

Depends on the size of your arms really. I had a few creases which is normal, but mostly in the should bend area. Brian had significantly more. He's taller and weighs around 155-60 and wore a small. It tested pretty poorly on him but great on me.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Heath. The only creases noticeable are in the bicep area around the "armpitish area and they aren't huge". I think it's a result of the extra material in the armpit area which will allow for swimming and running. All that said, it feels pretty damn sweet.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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your definition of tight must be really loose? I'm 5'10" 165lbs and wear the Octane small. It's a bitch to get the suit up over my shoulders, but once its on its on. Yes does feel like a layer of skin.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Would you recommend testing at the Eros sport facility or Faster wind tunnel in Scottsdale? Which one would be more beneficial for testing aero helmets, arm position and skin suits?

I can only afford to go to one testing facility but I'm not sue which one I will benefit more from. I've never tested at any facility before.

Any advice or thoughts for me?

Thanks

"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [flyrunride] [ In reply to ]
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I've got the black PI Octane suit with elbow-length sleeves. I've ridden up to 6 hours in hot and humid conditions (Louisiana, September-October) and didn't find the "blackness" to be as hot as I expected, but it's not as cool as wearing white. The evaporation does keep it cool. I've only raced in it once -- Florida, November -- and it wasn't uncomfortable at all with temps in the low 70's and sunny and dry. Excellent sun protection.

As for sizing, I'm 5'8" and 160lbs and barely squeezed into a M. So tight I ordered a L, but returned the L because it was a bit loose in several areas. But it was a close call. Every time I put on the M, and I've worn it probably 8-10 times, it feels like I'm going to rip it to shreds, but it has held up.

Now I just need to re-learn how to pee -- ain't no way to pull that suit off the shoulders in a race situation, and ain't no way I'm going to pee on myself or my bike. For now, it's a stretch (!) to use the leg hole. I've considered cutting an access/egress hole at waist level, like Castelli does with their tri suit, but I'm afraid the suit will rip the whole way around.


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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dewman wrote:
I've got the black PI Octane suit with elbow-length sleeves. I've ridden up to 6 hours in hot and humid conditions (Louisiana, September-October) and didn't find the "blackness" to be as hot as I expected, but it's not as cool as wearing white. The evaporation does keep it cool. I've only raced in it once -- Florida, November -- and it wasn't uncomfortable at all with temps in the low 70's and sunny and dry. Excellent sun protection.

As for sizing, I'm 5'8" and 160lbs and barely squeezed into a M. So tight I ordered a L, but returned the L because it was a bit loose in several areas. But it was a close call. Every time I put on the M, and I've worn it probably 8-10 times, it feels like I'm going to rip it to shreds, but it has held up.

Now I just need to re-learn how to pee -- ain't no way to pull that suit off the shoulders in a race situation, and ain't no way I'm going to pee on myself or my bike. For now, it's a stretch (!) to use the leg hole. I've considered cutting an access/egress hole at waist level, like Castelli does with their tri suit, but I'm afraid the suit will rip the whole way around.

Interesting. I'm almost 6'4" and was almost 190 at Aerocamp. The medium fit me just fine. I guess "tight" is a relative term.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, and I've always gone the two-piece route, so I've got no experience with onesies. Compared to your 6'4" and 190, I'm practically a bowling ball at 5'8" -160. The size chart puts my chest on the borderline between a M and an L. Sounds like the length might have more range than the width.


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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dewman wrote:
Yeah, and I've always gone the two-piece route, so I've got no experience with onesies. Compared to your 6'4" and 190, I'm practically a bowling ball at 5'8" -160. The size chart puts my chest on the borderline between a M and an L. Sounds like the length might have more range than the width.

I'm 5'7" at 155 and it fits me fine. It's definitely form fitting, but not too bad.

I don't know how much faster it makes me, but it is a sick suit.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [matt_tris] [ In reply to ]
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Agree that it's a fast suit. Switching from stock wheels, regular cycling gear and standard helmet to the PI Octane, a pair of low-end aero wheels and the Giro Air Attack gains me about 2 mph on a long course. Swim was in a sleeveless wetsuit, so I don't know how it does in the water, except that hte short sleeves are a non-factor.


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Dopers.Suck] [ In reply to ]
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Dopers.Suck wrote:
Would you recommend testing at the Eros sport facility or Faster wind tunnel in Scottsdale? Which one would be more beneficial for testing aero helmets, arm position and skin suits?

I can only afford to go to one testing facility but I'm not sue which one I will benefit more from. I've never tested at any facility before.

Any advice or thoughts for me?

Thanks

I would be wary of data from Faster. Where do you live?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Fountain hills , AZ is where I'll be based in the winters. I'm from Canada.

"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Dopers.Suck] [ In reply to ]
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My personal opinion would certainly be to make the trek to LA in that case. There's a lot of good prep info to be gleaned from this thread so, armed with that, you could be extremely effective with the time you spend in the 'drome.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Dopers.Suck] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sorry Dopers.Suck, I've been a bit slow to respond. Full disclosure: I work for Alphamantis Technologies, the company that developed the system that ERO Sports uses at the VELO Sports Center.

Each experience is going to be different, and is as much a function of the individual conducting the test. One of the benefits of a wind tunnel is that you'll get how CdA varies with yaw angle. One of the benefits of velodrome aero testing is that you will get a better feel for how rideable your position is.

I don't think anyone can conclusively tell you which will be better for you. There's certainly a place for both in this world, and I'd encourage you to definitely pick one and see how much free speed you can get.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Feb 25, 14 20:52
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Dopers.Suck wrote:
Would you recommend testing at the Eros sport facility or Faster wind tunnel in Scottsdale? Which one would be more beneficial for testing aero helmets, arm position and skin suits?

I can only afford to go to one testing facility but I'm not sue which one I will benefit more from. I've never tested at any facility before.

Any advice or thoughts for me?

Thanks


I would be wary of data from Faster. Where do you live?

James, just curious why you say that? I'm in AZ and this thread has basically told me I don't know crap about aero until actually testing my position so I was considering Faster as an alternative. I've met Stover before and would love to do testing at the Velo but not sure they'll have another test session before my A race.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
dewman wrote:
I've got the black PI Octane suit with elbow-length sleeves. I've ridden up to 6 hours in hot and humid conditions (Louisiana, September-October) and didn't find the "blackness" to be as hot as I expected, but it's not as cool as wearing white. The evaporation does keep it cool. I've only raced in it once -- Florida, November -- and it wasn't uncomfortable at all with temps in the low 70's and sunny and dry. Excellent sun protection.

As for sizing, I'm 5'8" and 160lbs and barely squeezed into a M. So tight I ordered a L, but returned the L because it was a bit loose in several areas. But it was a close call. Every time I put on the M, and I've worn it probably 8-10 times, it feels like I'm going to rip it to shreds, but it has held up.

Now I just need to re-learn how to pee -- ain't no way to pull that suit off the shoulders in a race situation, and ain't no way I'm going to pee on myself or my bike. For now, it's a stretch (!) to use the leg hole. I've considered cutting an access/egress hole at waist level, like Castelli does with their tri suit, but I'm afraid the suit will rip the whole way around.


Interesting. I'm almost 6'4" and was almost 190 at Aerocamp. The medium fit me just fine. I guess "tight" is a relative term.

I'm 6'0" and 165-170 lbs and the medium PI Octane fits great. Had no issues getting the suit off quickly for potty breaks.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [CDriver] [ In reply to ]
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I can speak to nothing personally, but from various vicarious viewpoints it seems as though the results that the Faster tunnel produces are not especially reliable.

From what I understand, you do not have to attend an aero camp to use the ERO aero testing.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I've got the PI suit in size small. I'm 5'8, 145lbs and the fit is snug but comfortable. I've got a few (2-3) wrinkles right at the shoulder bend as Heath describes, which as others have said is likely because of the material needed to support flexibility for swimming and running. The suit in general is pretty sweet and the material unique. I don't have any aero testing or outdoor rides yet to make a determination on whether or not it is faster for me.

Chris
Last edited by: CPower: Feb 26, 14 7:42
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [CPower] [ In reply to ]
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I've just got my PI Octane suit in a size small too. I'm 5'8" and 140lbs and it feels like it fits very well, but I also have a few wrinkles around the shoulder/armpit area too. I also plan on testing it on my local TT course, and see how it works out. I'm optimistic and really look forward to sporting that bad boy on race day.

For those who tested well, did you also have small wrinkles around the shoulder/ armpit area? For those who tested poorly, did you have additional wrinkles in the sleeves? I'm trying to understand the difference. Thanks
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [smarty] [ In reply to ]
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smarty wrote:
I've just got my PI Octane suit in a size small too. I'm 5'8" and 140lbs and it feels like it fits very well, but I also have a few wrinkles around the shoulder/armpit area too. I also plan on testing it on my local TT course, and see how it works out. I'm optimistic and really look forward to sporting that bad boy on race day.

For those who tested well, did you also have small wrinkles around the shoulder/ armpit area? For those who tested poorly, did you have additional wrinkles in the sleeves? I'm trying to understand the difference. Thanks

Generally you are going to get a few wrinkle in the armpit area. Brian had some bad wrinkles on the front of the sleeve in addition to these.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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You guys are killing me, I'm all for marginal gains, but do a few wrinkles matter in ironman? Statement made Out of ignorance, rather than arrogance.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mdfletcher] [ In reply to ]
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The wrinkles are going to matter just as much in a 10k TT as they will in an Ironman. Aerodynamics doesn't just go away when you go long or go short. They will have a greater impact on watts at higher speed and a greater impact on total time at lower speed, but it is all relative.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mdfletcher] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe, Maybe not that's why it is good to get tested. The suit, which fit me and tested well, would save me between 4-5 minutes over 112 miles. For Brian almost the exact opposite would be true because the suit didn't fit him properly.

I've said this before, and I feel like it is worth reiterating, get tested. Disc wheel, $2000, might be marginally faster than an $80 cover. Getting tested, $500-1000, we've seen 10-45 watt savings. It is not sexy and carbon, but it will make you faster.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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How did the guys with P5 six's deal with all the stack changes? Did they slot the spacers? Or just put it low and jack up the bars another way?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mdfletcher] [ In reply to ]
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Mdfletcher wrote:
How did the guys with P5 six's deal with all the stack changes? Did they slot the spacers? Or just put it low and jack up the bars another way?

I was the only one with a p5, but it was a 3 and use a Ventus bar. So it was much easier to work on. I think the 6 is a fast bike but a major pain to work on and adjust. I think it is probably easier to test a p5-6 in the tunnel where you don't have to worry about brakes. You could definitely slot the spacer without causing any structural issues. If you were testing on the track I think you could also probably keep the rear brake attached and detach the front one as long as you aren't using the "hi" extensions. Someone with a bit more experience with 6 might be able to chime in here.

It can be tricky with any of the integrated bikes. I think the best ones have the ability to pedestal the pads and extensions together. It is hard to completely hide the cables that way though.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mdfletcher] [ In reply to ]
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Mdfletcher wrote:
You guys are killing me, I'm all for marginal gains, but do a few wrinkles matter in ironman? Statement made Out of ignorance, rather than arrogance.

Sadly... or happily... yes, they do. That's what gives people like you, with access to Slowtwitch, a decided advantage over your triathlon club colleague.

Go to a wind tunnel, or go and see Jim Manton at ERO Sports and try it.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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This may be random but as you all are talking about sleeves being faster (as long as not having wrinkles and etc) Do arm sleeves(used in hot races) reap the same kind of benefit? I got my P-09 on order so hearing all this stuff about it makes me :))))
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cmsamp3] [ In reply to ]
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I do not believe anyone tested them, nor do I recall seeing them tested anywhere. I'd say you probably have close to a 50/50 chance.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
The wrinkles are going to matter just as much in a 10k TT as they will in an Ironman. Aerodynamics doesn't just go away when you go long or go short. They will have a greater impact on watts at higher speed and a greater impact on total time at lower speed, but it is all relative.

Yes but Ironman is a different beast, I can assure you nobody at Ironman St George 2012 was riding the same position at mile 5 as they were at 50 as they were at 100. The same arguments always come from slammers as well. Well if your only reference of perspective is a 10k TT then you really have no business advising someone about what is fast at mile 90 of an Ironman. Sure a helmet sitting just the right way might be so fast but honestly, have you ever seen those peeps with a Lazer Tardiz? It seems to always go on crooked. This all begs the question, would "most" people benefit by simply spending the time training. For an Ironman I think the answer is yes. Maybe not so for a 10k TT.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Aero is aero and being aero is faster be it a 10k or a 180k.

If you can reduce your drag in a position that you can ride for 10k or 180k (and if you have a good bike fit these positions should be more or less the same but this is a different discussion for a different day) knocking off 10,20 30 or more grams of drag is going to make you faster at the end of the day no matter what the distance.

In fact the longer you go, one could argue that the more aero you are the less cumulative fatigue you'll have.

Brian Stover
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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But this misses my entire point. My entire point is that you can have the best position in the world, but Ironman is a long race. Maybe the super fast kit is tight and snug at mile 10, but after a long day of battle the fabric has bunched up in such a way that the 2 watts it saved u over the first 10 miles and was neutral from 10 to 60 is now costing you 3 watts at 60 - 112. Maybe that perfectly positioned head is now an aero disaster because of fatigue.

I think there can be some benefit here for athletes looking for fruit at the top, but people have said they were already starting to fatigue at the end of session. That is in a controlled environment. Imagine having them swim 2.4 and then biking 80 miles before going right into the aero testing, may some results not change? Who knows, maybe they change for the better but I think many people could benefit more by not sweating the small stuff and work on training instead.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Yes but Ironman is a different beast, I can assure you nobody at Ironman St George 2012 was riding the same position at mile 5 as they were at 50 as they were at 100. The same arguments always come from slammers as well. Well if your only reference of perspective is a 10k TT then you really have no business advising someone about what is fast at mile 90 of an Ironman. Sure a helmet sitting just the right way might be so fast but honestly, have you ever seen those peeps with a Lazer Tardiz? It seems to always go on crooked. This all begs the question, would "most" people benefit by simply spending the time training. For an Ironman I think the answer is yes. Maybe not so for a 10k TT.

Well, it's not either/or. No one is saying that you should aero test so much that it begins interfering with training time. To Kona qualify, you're going to have to have most of the major components nailed. Training, positioning, equipment, nutrition.

The whole point of using a very experienced fitter is exactly that -- to make sure that you can ride the position for as long as possible. And that's the art of aero fitting. The aim isn't to get you into the most aerodynamic position. It's to get you into the most rideable aerodynamic position for your goal distance.

Of course, anyone can just slam an Ironman athlete down and lower drag, Thomas. You should give more credit to the amount of experience behind a good fitter.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
but I think many people could benefit more by not sweating the small stuff and work on training instead.

That statement right there is missing the entire point.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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Andy,

No disrespect, but this is one of those things, unless you have done Ironman you can't have the proper perspective. You get the prospective by passing age groupers on the second loop of their first. You get it by going out in the middle of course and hiding in the bushes watching people when there is no crowd to lift their spirits. It is a tough sport. Are u suggesting there are fitters out there who can predict with perfect aerodynamic degradation how the body is going to change as their body fatigues. It isn't a question of the perfect comfortable position. Everyone experiences some level of fatigue and their position will incur changes. Some will lose so much water in their tissues that the aero kit that was tight is now flapping around.

I don't pretend to understand what it is like watching child birth. I could watch a million and never have the perspective gained from giving birth once.

Again I love the idea of ERO and the wind tunnel but it is about balance. For many it makes sense but for many it does not at the current moment . Maybe I myself don't have the necessary perspective to fully understand ERO - to that I say have someone bring me out and change my mind.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
How so? How many IMs to your name have you finished?

This does not deign a response.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
But this misses my entire point. My entire point is that you can have the best position in the world, but Ironman is a long race. Maybe the super fast kit is tight and snug at mile 10, but after a long day of battle the fabric has bunched up in such a way that the 2 watts it saved u over the first 10 miles and was neutral from 10 to 60 is now costing you 3 watts at 60 - 112. Maybe that perfectly positioned head is now an aero disaster because of fatigue.

I think there can be some benefit here for athletes looking for fruit at the top, but people have said they were already starting to fatigue at the end of session. That is in a controlled environment. Imagine having them swim 2.4 and then biking 80 miles before going right into the aero testing, may some results not change? Who knows, maybe they change for the better but I think many people could benefit more by not sweating the small stuff and work on training instead.

You are essentially saying that aerodynamics don't really matter and that you should train harder. I would expect more from you quite frankly. This argument has been hashed out a million times on here. As Andy said it is not an either or situation. Of course fitness is first but just because people fatigue doesn't mean that wind somehow begins to act differently.

Do you swim with a skin? Why not just get fitter and swim faster? Do you race in 12oz shoes or lightweight shoes? Same thing.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Maybe I myself don't have the necessary perspective to fully understand ERO - to that I say have someone bring me out and change my mind.

Ok, Now I see where this was all going.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, to start:

What is the listing in your signature?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Maybe I myself don't have the necessary perspective to fully understand ERO - to that I say have someone bring me out and change my mind.


Ok, Now I see where this was all going.

Exactly. When I read that I was like..."Ahhhh, now it all makes sense."
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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I am not going to degrade into a black hole of discussion. You too missed my. point. Again I believe in aero, I believe in drivetrain efficiency, I believe in searching out small gains but I have better places to look than a single wrinkle in a piece of fabric when it hasn't been determined what effect the race itself will have on the postioning of the garment in an actual race.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't miss your point, I just thought it was wrong.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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And that is why I asked you how many IMs you have completed. You think after 2.4 miles of swimming and 112 miles of biking the garment is going to fit in the exact way it was positioned while riding at ERO. Then take the fact that most people don't race in a new kit everytime either. I can't tell you how many TYR kits I have seen tight at the start only to be so sloppy loose at the end of a race.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I can't tell you how many TYR kits I have seen tight at the start only to be so sloppy loose at the end of a race.

I'm sure 2XU suits are nice and tight at the end though....
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas, you claim to speak for all athletes because you finished an Ironman? And, you claim to speak for them more than James and Andy because they haven't? You are deigning to speak about comfortable positions and fatigue experienced based on your n=1 experiences?

If you want to measure dicks I'll be your huckleberry. But to throw out these tired logical fallacies (appeal to authority, false dichotomy) is beneath you.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:

No disrespect, but this is one of those things, unless you have done Ironman you can't have the proper perspective. You get the prospective by passing age groupers on the second loop of their first. You get it by going out in the middle of course and hiding in the bushes watching people when there is no crowd to lift their spirits. It is a tough sport.


None taken, Thomas. I don't know if I've "done Ironman", but I know I did an Ironman. I'll grant you there might be a difference between the two. I was also a follow coach for RAAM for 11 straight days. And I've ridden some longer distances than IM.

Oh, and I have watched a few IMs live, though I never hid in the bushes. :-) I'm pretty sure I know how people look when they finish.


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Are u suggesting there are fitters out there who can predict with perfect aerodynamic degradation how the body is going to change as their body fatigues. It isn't a question of the perfect comfortable position. Everyone experiences some level of fatigue and their position will incur changes. Some will lose so much water in their tissues that the aero kit that was tight is now flapping around.


No, I'm suggesting there are good fitters out there who ask their athletes about what happened during their races, and adapt the fit accordingly. The dialogue between good athletes and good positioning coaches is very complete, I'm sure. I know Jim Manton goes out to Kona and, yes, I can certainly imagine him hiding in some bushes to see the result of the fitting he does to make sure he's understood whatever he can.

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Again I love the idea of ERO and the wind tunnel but it is about balance. For many it makes sense but for many it does not at the current moment . Maybe I myself don't have the necessary perspective to fully understand ERO - to that I say have someone bring me out and change my mind.


Balance is almost never "all of one thing, and none of the other". Between training and aero testing, who knows, your ratio should probably be 1000:1. But just don't make one of the components completely zero.

I'll just end with this: aero testing is about understanding the compromises . After understanding them, you can decide however you want. But at least it won't be decided by not knowing what the compromises are.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Mar 18, 14 14:22
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I mention TYR kits because that is personally what sticks in my mind as the worst offender - and yes I had personal discussions with athletes and talked to them about it. And yes my 2xu kit may not be in the exact position after getting out of the swim, rolling around on the ground and having some violent wetsuit removal tactics but all in all it is tight at the beginning, middle, and end of the race. I also race a lot more than most and I am happy to be wearing them again this year.

In addition I will mention that I passed on many equipment providera and team opportunities because yes, I do think about this stuff and if
It I run the long term analyais and it is costing me success then I say thanks but no. I say this not to pump my ego, but merely to highlight the fact that I want to go fast, I want to win and I am less motivated by money or having the most logos.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
aero testing is about understanding the compromises . After understanding them, you can decide however you want. But at least it won't be decided by not knowing what the compromises are.

Well summarized.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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mile 20:



mile 90:



Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
Thomas, you claim to speak for all athletes because you finished an Ironman? And, you claim to speak for them more than James and Andy because they haven't? You are deigning to speak about comfortable positions and fatigue experienced based on your n=1 experiences?

If you want to measure dicks I'll be your huckleberry. But to throw out these tired logical fallacies (appeal to authority, false dichotomy) is beneath you.

First off I don't think I claim to speak for all athletes. Point to where I am doing that so I can learn and not make the same mistake.

I am single athlete with a single perspective. Ultimately diversity is often rewarded when it comes to solving problems. I welcome opinions and feedback but I do try to think about things. Anyone that has personally raced with me knows I talk a lot on course. I ask a lot of questioms and I also can be found racking my bike late so I can see just how seriousy my competitors are about going fast on the bike. Sure everything gained aggregates into my perspective so take it for what it is worth. I don't mean to represent an entire population. And I was asking so I gain a better perspective and understanding of others in the conversations. It is not intended to be an ego measure, but it is pretty difficult to craft a response without at least trying to understand where they are coming from.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
mile 20:



mile 90:


What point are you trying to make? You honestly think we can tell the subtle drag of the suit from a picture? Do you also have the one where Kevin Taddonios suit busted open at Roth?

Regardless this is not my point. Working on aero is fine, but it is about balance. Again this started with a single wrinkle.

Off topic, how long did that suit take to put in T1. If you knew you were the last person to make the train in swim out of pro race and putting on suit meant you missed the train on the bike would you still go with it.?


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I don't think I claim to speak for all athletes. Point to where I am doing that so I can learn and not make the same mistake.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Yes but Ironman is a different beast, I can assure you nobody at Ironman St George 2012 was riding the same position at mile 5 as they were at 50 as they were at 100.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Maybe the super fast kit is tight and snug at mile 10, but after a long day of battle the fabric has bunched up in such a way that the 2 watts it saved u over the first 10 miles and was neutral from 10 to 60 is now costing you 3 watts at 60 - 112

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
No disrespect, but this is one of those things, unless you have done Ironman you can't have the proper perspective.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Everyone experiences some level of fatigue and their position will incur changes.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
How so? How many IMs to your name have you finished?

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
- and yes I had personal discussions with athletes and talked to them about it.

to name a few

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I don't think I claim to speak for all athletes. Point to where I am doing that so I can learn and not make the same mistake.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Yes but Ironman is a different beast, I can assure you nobody at Ironman St George 2012 was riding the same position at mile 5 as they were at 50 as they were at 100.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Maybe the super fast kit is tight and snug at mile 10, but after a long day of battle the fabric has bunched up in such a way that the 2 watts it saved u over the first 10 miles and was neutral from 10 to 60 is now costing you 3 watts at 60 - 112

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
No disrespect, but this is one of those things, unless you have done Ironman you can't have the proper perspective.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Everyone experiences some level of fatigue and their position will incur changes.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
How so? How many IMs to your name have you finished?

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
- and yes I had personal discussions with athletes and talked to them about it.

to name a few

Well thank you for that feedback. I truly appreciate it. You can replace every generalizarion there with "I" instead.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas, here is my take on this. I have finished an Ironman and I have made decisions that were detrimental to my performance. I know sitting up to stretch my back is not aerodynamic, I know exchanging bottles and grabbing food is not ideal. But, when it is time to push I want to make sure I move to the best of my ability. Since I do not have a world class engine, I have to pay attention to the little things as well as train my ass off. If, clothing can save me 5-10 watts, getting a more aerodynamic front brake saves me 5 watts, a front bottle configuration, wheels, helmet, hand position, proper fit.....It adds up for me. While, I completely understand what you are saying....Training is what moves you. But, being results oriented, I have to pay attention to the little things because, for me it does add up. Me, I am hoping to get into the next aero camp since it will be close and hopefully feasible, because it matters for me.

Steve
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Racing Yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting picture for aero discussion.



Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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we've talked about this, here on ST. Not sure this is current though.

sciguy wrote:
Interesting picture for aero discussion.


Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Well thank you for that feedback. I truly appreciate it.

you're welcome, and truly. and now that the picture of your likely not so aero position has been dug up, recall the discussion we had about it a while back with regard to suggestions for improvement with this perspective: the difference between you and me is that while I can pick every nit and come pretty close to your 2013 Kona bike split on only 206 watts, I'll never have your engine, and thus never have your potential. Which is why some of us post, because we, for whatever reason, want to see you or us or others like you and us do well, get better.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
No that is not what I am saying. This is a single wrinkle I am talking about. Aero matters, but u have to have balance.

We were never talking about a "single" wrinkle. We were talking about multiple wrinkles as a way to judge fit. Someone came through and said does worrying about a few wrinkles make a difference. They do. I've seen it, I've seen the data and I witnessed the tests. In fact I was one of the test subjects. Any garment is going to have a few wrinkles it is the severity and the fit that makes the difference. Maybe 10-20 watts doesn't mean that much to you. It does to me and to a lot of other people as well. Hence that is why we've had requests to have another camp in with Alphamantis and ERO (working on it!, we just need track time) with most of the campers wanting to return and also why we've had a lot of interest in the upcoming one we have planned with A2 in NC.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I look forward to check it out and report on it. Hopefully I won't be otherwise engaged.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Love to have you there this time! We'll be there 3 days, so hopefully one of those will work out for your schedule. June 12-14



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm. You have to balance? But don't you even go as far as to 1. Purchase a chain from friction facts and 2. Swap to that chain for only races? But spending a few hundred dollars on a solid bike fit and aero testing is unbalanced? From the looks of it, someone might be able to benefit from exactly that. As long as there's no wrinkles!!

It soooounds like someone wants a free pass to ERO. Not saying its you though. Just that it seems someone does.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty current, if Nov 2013 looks like this:


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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I feel like thats what I look like on my road bike.

Now only if I had the same engine...

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I was thinking about this thread the other day and it got me thinking, how did all of your campers fare this season? Were they able to translate the watts saved from the track to the road? Lots of PRs? Thanks
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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Front door brag warning.

10 Race Fastest Bike Splits
Fastest bike split at AG Sprint Nationals and Worlds
3rd Fastest bike split at AG Olympic Worlds

Using position as setup by Jim Manton at Aerocamp. Took the plunge on upgrade to Speed Concept after being fully convinced over P5/Felt IA by Jim and others riding the Speed Concept down there.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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i too have the SC....but prob half your speed! nice bikes once set up for yourself

off the top of my head, did you used to ride a P2?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I came off P2 + Flo 90/Disc to SC + Aeolus 9's.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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scary...i came off a P2 with flo60/90 and cover, to an SC with flo 90/super 9 disc
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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One set a 4 min 40k PB shortly after we worked with her.
Another won a TX State 40k TT Championship title by just a few seconds (:03 iirc) and while being stuck in 1 gear bc something happened to her derailleur in the start house.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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That's great Brian. Some great results. Congrats.
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