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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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If you click the link for the camp in my sig line it is all there.

We are debriefing with Andy and Jim on Monday so that it subject to change.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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No one was that narrow. It would probably be hard to hold going around the track too unless you had practiced it a lot. I was one of the more narrow people at 18cm c-c. The thing to remember here is that everyone but one person was a triathlete. Getting that narrow for a 40k TT is fine but would be tough for 90 or 180k, especially after swimming.

I'd personally like to test that narrow just to see, but again time caught up with us, and I'd only use it a few times of the year at our local TT's.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
We crossed off a lot of questions during testing. But the testing generated as many new questions as it answered for many of us.

Ain't it cool? Or, in my world, "the purpose of models is not to fit data but to sharpen questions."
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTri and relentless:

Quick elbow position follow up questions...

I seem to remember John Cobb stating that broader shouldered athletes often do better with wider elbow and hand placement. So, How would you describe your shoulders, arms and chests - skinny, broad, big, etc.? Did you keep your forearms and hands parallel (hands apart) or angled (hands together or close together)? And, how were you forearms angled - flat, upwards, etc.?

Thanks.

David K
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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my aero bars are fixed width and the aero pads can only be adjusted to one of 3 positions (vision set-up intergrated). My base test was set to the middle position. The improvement gain was made when we set the pads to the outside positon.

I think this is the benefit of non wind tunnel testing. Wind tunnel testing doesn't take into account rider stability. Going wider made me more stable and thus faster. I'm sure in a wind tunnel this would have made me slower possibly, at least that's what conventional wisdom dictates.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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It's awesome and completely sucks at the same time!

The not knowing what I don't know is killing me especially since I now know the questions I want to know answers for.

Brian Stover
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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I used the Advatage 2 for base testing. It was the 2nd fastest helmet for me. Only the Bell Javelin was slightly faster.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I dig the picture of Taylor on the track and Andy on the apron in that pic in the link to the next camp!

Sorry to go OT.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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damn that "looks" aero, but is it stable? Stability > aero out on the road IMO.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
jonfl wrote:
Hmmmm, interesting. I thought the T30 would be good to go on virtually any frame as long as it was flush to the frame or at least very, very close. I didn't think about the rider at all. This thread is really beneficial, thank you to all who participated


There was a lot going on in his reply to you.

Bottles on the frame: results varied based on rider. For one ride a round bottle on the downtube barely moved the needle for another on the same type of frame, it was negative.

Torhans 30: This bottle did very well on bayonet style frame and not as well or worse than BTA bottles on rounder head tubes. I would say a big majority of the reason why is that we could not get the bottle close enough to the headtube.

I ran with one bottle on my downtube, then swapped it out for a BTA... and my CdA increased by .0089
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [DavidK] [ In reply to ]
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JT is long and lanky. He's like 6'4"and weighs 140lbs. I'm 5'10' 167. I'm just about as skinny as its ever gonna get. I've got wide hips which are apparently in proportion to my upper body.I don't consider myself a big guy, but apparently I have broad shoulders and a broad chest. My aero bars are J- bends. From my elbows to my finger that are angled inward and not pararell.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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Rather than look for reasons not to get aeroashell, look for ways to make aeroashell work.

Usually it isn't even hard you just have to try.


relentless wrote:
damn that "looks" aero, but is it stable? Stability > aero out on the road IMO.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Cool stuff! My question is how you controlled for keeping bike position constant between runs to isolate the difference in each change you made? What I'm getting at is that to find out if a bottle or other equipment changes(and some positional changes as well) makes a difference, the bike position needs to be very stable since relatively small changes there might skew the results a fair bit. Holding a position can be hard enough in a tunnel where you're stationary, and have visual aids to help you, so I imagine it must be significantly harder on a track. Especially with most people probably not having much experience riding on a track at all before testing.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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>>for 80% of the people, the P09 was the helmet. No other helmet came close to that sort of success rate.

For what kind of head position? A triathlete's, aggressive TT or both?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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bjorn wrote:
Cool stuff! My question is how you controlled for keeping bike position constant between runs to isolate the difference in each change you made? What I'm getting at is that to find out if a bottle or other equipment changes(and some positional changes as well) makes a difference, the bike position needs to be very stable since relatively small changes there might skew the results a fair bit. Holding a position can be hard enough in a tunnel where you're stationary, and have visual aids to help you, so I imagine it must be significantly harder on a track. Especially with most people probably not having much experience riding on a track at all before testing.

We made one change at a time. So we never, for example, lowered someone AND changed their helmet. We just did it in isolation. If it didn't work we would go back and change a single variable. As far as having someone hold an exact position, that was going to be hard as you said. But no one was going full gas and from what I saw when we would re-baseline, the runs would be withing the margin of error. Towards the ends of all the runs there were definitely some throwaways as people started getting tired and drifting.

No system is perfect which is why I think this is a great compliment to wind tunnel testing. In the tunnel you can get away with some crazy positions that might test fast but be unsustainable, on the track it is pretty obvious right away if it something you can hold. The model has been validated enough by people like Robert, Tom, Alex, and Andy, that we feel pretty confident in the results we got back. Like Brian said, more work to do and more questions to be answered.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [DavidK] [ In reply to ]
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David-
As relentless already chimed in, I'm on the lanky side at 6'3" and growing while topping the scales at 148lbs.

I started at what I would consider a moderately narrow position, but still enough room for a comfortably mounted BTA and ended up about 2cm wider than that. If I had to guess at what caused my drag to go down I would link it to this: My arms are skinny enough that it really doesn't matter what they shield and when I brought elbows apart my upper back and neck naturally (w/ no effort) shrugged allowing for much lower profile. I would have liked to test a "super" narrow pad position as I have ridden comfortably like that on the road before, but did not have the ability to rearrange aerobars for that while testing. I certainly plan on field testing that in the future though. I would not contribute that drop in drag to stability because narrow is my standard riding position. Somewhat head on shot below of elbows narrow:

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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Bjorn-
Interesting question and certainly one that is on my mind. I did run across the problem that my baseline from run 3 and run 8 were significantly different. This put some limitations on the data I have, but I can still compare 2-3 runs either side of both baselines, which covers pretty much everything. I would argue that it may be smart for a triathlete with no experience on the track, etc. to do more than just a starting baseline, maybe baseline as frequently as every 2-3 runs if you are trying to isolate small changes like hydration.

Also, counter to what Heath just said, I did go for some double changes as I started to get desperate for some drop in CdA near the end. I did a test of Rudy Wingspan and P09 with elbows narrow (head more "popped" up) and then repeated the tests with Wingspan and P09 with wide elbows (head naturally dropped and turtled) and the P09 crushed the Wingspan. I didn't even make it more than 2-3 laps with the Wingspan before Bryan concluded it was not worth continuing. It seems that the Wingspan has been a generally good helmet when your head sort of sticks up, but once you can get one of the rear ported/long tail helmets sitting nicely on the back they are quick.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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very stable, I go through turn in the bars, ride them in the wind, etc. have ridden up to 80 miles this way, no need as a cyclist to ride further than that ;) I'd imagine after a swim, shrugging might not be happening so well, but there is no issue in holding that for long periods of time of at vo2+ level efforts or climbing. at least not after a small amount of adaptation. I might not want to do this if my position were extended much. one thing I have found is that is that it is much more stable with head down even when very windy out. conditions that if head were up(warm up or general riding) I end up getting blown around, but when I drop head and shrug, smooth as silk like it smooths out the flow and creates my own little cocoon which isn't disturbed by passing semis in 15-20mph winds

side benefit is that I have the entire base bar available for climbing steep hills if need be, like I might on a road bike and not relegated to aero or horns. that and basebar gets to see more clean air

drawbacks include no BTA and cpu under arms( and with age also comes lack of up close vision so...), but with narrow wrists, it can be read between them :)

I have done a couple of TTTs like this without any complaints
Last edited by: jeffp: Jan 24, 14 10:44
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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bjorn wrote:
Cool stuff! My question is how you controlled for keeping bike position constant between runs to isolate the difference in each change you made? What I'm getting at is that to find out if a bottle or other equipment changes(and some positional changes as well) makes a difference, the bike position needs to be very stable since relatively small changes there might skew the results a fair bit. Holding a position can be hard enough in a tunnel where you're stationary, and have visual aids to help you, so I imagine it must be significantly harder on a track. Especially with most people probably not having much experience riding on a track at all before testing.

I was a bit nervous about the repeatability and had the same concerns. I in a way got "lucky". It turned out that my original position was the fastest. Run #1 was my baseline run. Then as I started changing my position, lower, higher etc my drag went up fairly significantly. I was thinking there was something wrong with my baseline so I went back to the original setup and I was back to my original drag number. I think the reason I was able to repeat the run so well was because I have ridden the same position for two years so it feels very natural. I think your point is valid. If my new position would have been very different from the original I think it would have been hard for me to repeat as well as I did. Hopefully Jim or Andy will jump in and address the repeatabillity issue.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Rather than look for reasons not to get aeroashell, look for ways to make aeroashell work.

Usually it isn't even hard you just have to try.


relentless wrote:
damn that "looks" aero, but is it stable? Stability > aero out on the road IMO.

Relentless was not looking for a way not to get "aeroashell". He attended the camp to get "aeroashell". It so happened that wider tested faster for him whatever the reason might be. The stability thing is just a theory. He nor anyone else knows exactly why it tested faster for him.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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My gratitude isn't in exclusion to anyone--you just popped up here. I remember well here and on the Wattage group when this stuff was first getting vetted. Didn't have a powertap at that point to play around (nor felt comfortable with R/python)

I really appreciate the discussion and absorbing as many takeaways as I can--from all parties.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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this +. please
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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bjorn wrote:
Cool stuff! My question is how you controlled for keeping bike position constant between runs to isolate the difference in each change you made? What I'm getting at is that to find out if a bottle or other equipment changes(and some positional changes as well) makes a difference, the bike position needs to be very stable since relatively small changes there might skew the results a fair bit. Holding a position can be hard enough in a tunnel where you're stationary, and have visual aids to help you, so I imagine it must be significantly harder on a track. Especially with most people probably not having much experience riding on a track at all before testing.

Hmmm. The answers to your questions are actually kind of complex. The overall issue is related to an analysis of variance type model where you're trying to compare variance across trials to variance within a trial so you can determine whether the difference between two trials is real or not. As it turns out, the within trial variance can be quite small -- but more importantly, you can see the estimated CdA being updated every second, so you can often tell when the rider isn't holding the line on the turns. As far as variance across trials, we've detected changes such as someone opening the loading dock door, which affected either the air patterns or the air density or both. So the bottom line is that the within trial variance is small and when it's not you can usually see the cause; and when "baseline" runs look off you can also usually spot the cause. As for pegging a difference to a particular change, such as a water bottle placement, that does, of course, depend on experimental control.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
for 80% of the people, the P09 was the helmet.

maybe because it was a small??? I couldn't fit that thing on my big melon

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
this +. please


The LG P09 worked well for me (triathlete - picture below) and for another camper who is cycling only this year and was set up more for TTs. I can't link her picture, but in the article on the main page, she's on the right side, second from the top.


Last edited by: ratherbeswimmin: Jan 24, 14 11:45
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